Vivaldi - Telemann - Scarlatti

[Herman]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 12:05:21 AM UTC+2, Notsure01 wrote:

> My point is that there are some prolific composers
> (Boccherini, Milhaud) that are known for a few works - but the rest of
> their music is neglected. For Vivaldi, there are huge quantities of
> concertos, and while there is that famous piece, other sets of concertos
> are prominent also (I enjoy L'Estro Armonico). Compare the number of
> recordings of Vivaldi to those of Telemann...
>
> While I agree with Herman's point, the fact that there are 555 Scarlatti
> sonatas (each a gem) hasn't affected his popularity.
>
> Maybe Vivaldi is simply a better composer than Telemann?
>
> (We could get into a discussion now of why certain favorite works are so
> seldom performed - a perennial subject for sure - but that is worthy of
> a separate thread).
>
> (And I like Telemann's A Minor suite for recorder better than the Bach
> suites -- and enjoy the Overture Burlesque de Quichotte.

This is lifted from the WAYTL topic.

I am not aware of any 'popularity' of Scarlatti. Some pro performers play a couple Scarlatti pieces as warm-ups or encores, and of course their are a lot of amateur pianists who play Scarlatti sonatas at home. I once sat through a recital of 45 minutes of Scarlatti and it drove me crazy.
Telemann is an excellent composer for amateur recorder or violin. Of course professional performers would make a much better job of it, however nothing could move me to buy a Telemann CD. Telemann did not compose for CD players but for people who could play or perform his music, and that's what they're doing right now. I call that successful.
I wouldn't really know how to measure whether Vivaldi is better than Telemann, and it's a fairly meaningless exercise anyway. Perhaps his melodic gift was a little stronger.

[JohnGavin]

Scarlatti has always been my favorite baroque composer after Bach. I don’t quite agree that all 555 sonatas are gems. That illusion is likely perpetuated by the fact that the vast majority of Scarlatti Sonata recordings are cherry-picked selections from the 555. These cherry picked sonatas are usually taken from say, those 300 or so which are gems (yes, that’s still a lot).

Listen to some of the volumes on the Naxos complete series (with different pianists). Take any single CD and you’ll find a mix of gems mixed with forgettable works. The superlative pianists in that series (Scherbakov and Frith) are great enough to make even the 2nd rate Sonatas sound interesting.

I would never buy complete sets from one performer, like Scott Ross or Belder or Grante. It’s too much - quantity does not equal quality IMO.

[gggg gggg]

(2022 Y. upload):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JaVGYG2i8&t=1512s

[Herman]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:22:06 PM UTC+2, gggg gggg wrote:

> (2022 Y. upload):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JaVGYG2i8&t=1512s

I know there are one or two RMCR-members who do this (and you are one of them, gggg) but really there is no need to post youtube links, and certainly if they are totally unremarkable.
If I want to listen to Scarlatti I know where to look.
Consider the option of saying something about the topic, rather than plugging it down with a link.

[Herman]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 3:00:03 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> Scarlatti has always been my favorite baroque composer after Bach.

wow, that's interesting. It doesn't bug you that it's all in the same tiny genre of keyboard miniature?

[JohnGavin]

Well, you’re right and wrong about that. He did compose other music, particularly religious choral music and others. But you’re right the keyboard sonatas are his claim to fame. Some recordings make him sound like the composer of sparkling miniatures and little else.

But to hear his full range you have to hear it from a performer who has a big imagination as opposed to just crisp fingers. Most people would reject my recommendation, but the recording that really demonstrates Scarlatti as a genius way ahead of his time and daring as well are the recordings by Landowska. A romantic approach to many of the sonatas have always been highly convincing to me and her choice of sonatas show Scarlatti’s astounding range.

I also have my prejudices – one of them being that the endless Concerti Grossi by the likes of Albinoni and Locatelli and friends bore me to tears. In fact classical FM stations play them constantly because of their deep vanilla flavor. Of course there are other great baroque composers, Handel, Purcell, and, Rameau to name a few.

[Mandryka]

I suddenly thought that if you don't already know this you might appreciate it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEV_06qW0I&t=474s&ab_channel=NarolEnterprise

I'm not really a Scarlatti person, but nevertheless I have enjoyed Wladyslaw Klosiewicz's Scarlatti CD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4FfeBwZnzo&list=OLAK5uy_mGlS5DC_b8GC50Orno-VrRPn-tr0QjwhU&ab_channel=W%C5%82adys%C5%82awK%C5%82osiewicz-Topic

[Mandryka]

To get clearer about the real topic of the thread, let me ask a related question.

Why isn't Ditrich Stöeffken performed more frequently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ssWzsQ1CvE&ab_channel=JonathanDunford-Topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WpbR0QQFQY&ab_channel=JonathanDunford-Topic

Or Bernart de Ventadorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGvTTfzDH8&ab_channel=PalomaGuti%C3%A9rrezdelArroya%2FManuelVilas-Topic

And why is Hildegard of Bingen so popular?

The answer, I suggest, is not solely to do with intrinsic properties of the music, and more to do with external factors: how able musicians are to play it, and teachers to teach it, and marketeers to sell it.

[gggg gggg]

(Y. upload):

"Synthesized Scarlatti in W. Carlos Style - Stereo"

[Herman]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 6:00:24 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>
>
> I also have my prejudices – one of them being that the endless Concerti Grossi by the likes of Albinoni and Locatelli and friends bore me to tears. In fact classical FM stations play them constantly because of their deep vanilla flavor. Of course there are other great baroque composers, Handel, Purcell, and, Rameau to name a few.

Don't forget Couperin.
Agreed about the vanilla concerti grossi.

[Notsure01]

Thanks, Herman, for plucking my musings into the open. My point may be
still unclear - all this started when I wondered why most of Hindemith's
vast output is so obscure - you rightly pointed out that since he was so
prolific people don't know where to start. I agreed, but noted that
having that one set of famous pieces hasn't stopped folks from exploring
other Vivaldi works.

As for Scarlatti's popularity, for sure I'm approaching this from my own
perspective. I'm always impressed by composers who make magic out of the
smallest things, and the variety of the Scarlatti sonatas amazes me
(Same is true of Chopin etudes, preludes, etc). I love Bruckner, Mahler
etc, but they take too long to get to the point (but look who is talking!)

As for the popularity of Scarlatti, I'll leave it up to the piano folks
to comment.(I'm not one though I was a student of Charles Rosen - don't
ask).

About my claim about every one of the Scarlatti's being a "gem", while I
must have been admonished a million times about my habit of
exaggerating, so many of of them are diamonds that it shouldn't matter
that a few are merely pearls...

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 07:14:46 UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:

> As for Scarlatti's popularity, for sure I'm approaching this from my own
> perspective. I'm always impressed by composers who make magic out of the
> smallest things, and the variety of the Scarlatti sonatas amazes me

His popularity is reinforced by the several pianists of note who have recorded several of the Scarlatti sonatas. Pletnev is one such pianist, and he recorded a double CD of Scarlatti for Virgin. I have it, and whilst one cannot argue with the pianism, the match of Pletnev's art, together with the modern piano, doesn't make for a satisfying listen. Composers such as Couperin, Scarlatti and such, are more satisfying on much older instruments, to my senses.

> As for the popularity of Scarlatti, I'll leave it up to the piano folks
> to comment.(I'm not one though I was a student of Charles Rosen - don't
> ask).

Invention together with sparkle, are two ingredients to my ears, (and I am not a piano person other than playing them badly). Telemann is lighter wrt these qualities, whilst agreeing he is fine, and is often found being played by amateur groups.

> About my claim about every one of the Scarlatti's being a "gem", while I
> must have been admonished a million times about my habit of
> exaggerating, so many of of them are diamonds that it shouldn't matter
> that a few are merely pearls...

Agreed that his hit rate is quite high. Couperin and Rameau were composers that to my ears were comparable in stature to Scarlatti, or even beyond.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Mandryka]

One thing worth considering is that Scarlatti had access to pianos in Maria Magdalena Barbara’s instrument collection. Not pianos like modern instruments obvs., less pure pitches than that, and less power. But still, instruments with more dynamic variation than a clavichord, and less brilliance than a harpsichord. He’s an important composer partly because he was one of the first to explore the piano’s potential. There’s a disc by Enrico Baiano on Stradivarius which explores this - a good disc IMO - vol 12 of their Complete Scarlatti series.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 7:08:37 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
> One thing worth considering is that Scarlatti had access to pianos in Maria Magdalena Barbara’s instrument collection. [...] He’s an important composer partly because he was one of the first to explore the piano’s potential.

I don't know about that. One might as well say Scarlatti's music shows he was very much interested in imitating the dry plucked sound of the guitar and lute which is easier achieved on harpsichord and clavichord than on pianoforte.
It is hard to escape the impression that there is a lot of conclusion-oriented talking of people who desperately want early eighteenth century composers to be anticipating the Steinway piano, even if there is no reason why they would.
It's like the arms industry. I mean, there is that silly old guy Seymour B. who sans blushing says 'if JSB had lived in our age he'd chosen a Steinway' - while the whole point of JSB (and his contemporaries, among whom Scarlatti) is they did NOT live in our age.

[Mandryka]

There has to be a first composer who wrote with piano sounds in mind. It’s not an unreasonable hypothesis that that composer was Scarlatti. His sponsor owned pianos, and some of his music seems to exploit instrumental effects. IMO it’s likely that he was into timbres, he wasn’t really writing music which was abstracted from instruments like Art of Fugue, at least not always. So I’d say that playing Scarlatti on a piano - I mean a fortepiano - as a good thing to try. You don’t know how it can sound until you have experimented. As it happens, I think it can sound rather good.

[Mandryka]

And to give a concrete example, try these two performances of Scarlatti's K 516, both played by Enrico Baiano, the first on a harpsichord, the second on a piano

https://open.spotify.com/track/0odEubBe24GZpsLDc1uxH7?si=f3e32fa57d1f4729
https://open.spotify.com/track/0odEubBe24GZpsLDc1uxH7?si=f3e32fa57d1f4729

[JohnGavin]

This is one that works for me. Rhythm without erratic rubato and color.

https://youtu.be/KgmXumRBJW0

[mINE109]

On 10/26/22 2:15 AM, Herman wrote:
> One might as well say Scarlatti's music shows he was very much
> interested in imitating the dry plucked sound of the guitar and lute
> which is easier achieved on harpsichord and clavichord than on
> pianoforte.

It's been suggested the thick added-note chords and acciaccaturi are
suited to the Cristofori because of the relatively mellow attacks.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:20:00 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> This is one that works for me. Rhythm without erratic rubato and color.
>

And why would 'rubato and color' on a (copy of an) instrument of the era be erratic?
Why would pre-Beethoven musicians all have played like robots?

To me this makes these Puyana performances unbearable. And of course the horrible modern harpsichords he used.

[Mandryka]

One idea about Scarlatti is that, unusually for composers of the period, he was interested in timbre. So that, while you may say that other baroque composers were very easy going about what sort of instrument their music was played on (remember Cabazon's "para tecla, arpa y vihuela") it's unlikely to be the case for Scarlatti.

[Mandryka]

Baiano (who seems to come up a lot for me for some reason!) actually makes me interested in k175

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h7gr7pE1ks&ab_channel=EnricoBaiano-Topic

[Steven Bornfeld]

For some reason, Scarlatti sonatas have been transferred to guitar more
(I'm quite sure) than any other composer of piano works, though the vast
majority of the sonatas have probably NOT been arranged for guitar.
K. 322, K 380 and a few others have been played to death.

[JohnGavin]

You lost me at “of course” and ‘horrible”. I should have said Rhythm without erratic rubato and WITH color. I will occasionally scroll through the tracks of an “authentic” harpsichord recording on Spotify and the timbre is always exactly the same - track after track. YUK.

But I have to admit. There’s one thing that I’m highly curious about regarding historic harpsichords. If you throw them into a river will they float or will they sink? Can I start an experiment with the one from your household?

[Herman]

That is so funny. Not. You know, the 'firewood' thing has started a really nasty thing here. What a great idea, talking about destroying stuff from other people's homes.

'the timbre is always exactly the same - track after track'

You do know, do you, that harpsichords have different registers? Also, there are different style hapsichords. French, Flemish and Italian. Most professional harpsichord soloists have several instruments, for different kinds of music.

[Frank Berger]

On 10/26/2022 2:58 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 8:17:53 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 1:05:43 PM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:20:00 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is one that works for me. Rhythm without erratic rubato and color.
>>>>
>>> And why would 'rubato and color' on a (copy of an) instrument of the era be erratic?
>>> Why would pre-Beethoven musicians all have played like robots?
>>>
>>> To me this makes these Puyana performances unbearable. And of course the horrible modern harpsichords he used.
>> You lost me at “of course” and ‘horrible”. I should have said Rhythm without erratic rubato and WITH color. I will occasionally scroll through the tracks of an “authentic” harpsichord recording on Spotify and the timbre is always exactly the same - track after track. YUK.
>>
>> But I have to admit. There’s one thing that I’m highly curious about regarding historic harpsichords. If you throw them into a river will they float or will they sink? Can I start an experiment with the one from your household?
>
> That is so funny. Not.

Having demonstrated over the years that you have no sense of humor (as in zero) you couldn't possibly know what is funny to normal people.

You know, the 'firewood' thing has started a really nasty thing here. What a great idea, talking about destroying stuff from other people's homes.

He asked you permission. Did you notice?

>
> 'the timbre is always exactly the same - track after track'
>
> You do know, do you, that harpsichords have different registers? Also, there are different style hapsichords. French, Flemish and Italian. Most professional harpsichord soloists have several instruments, for different kinds of music.

Now, THAT's funny. OF course, you don't know why it is.

[gggg gggg]

If a composer were commercially minded, wouldn't it be more advantageous for him to compose music that could be played on as many different instruments as possible or to compose music that would also appeal to musicians who played other instruments?

[Notsure01]

On 10/26/22 2:58 PM, Herman wrote:
> That is so funny. Not. You know, the 'firewood' thing has started a really nasty thing here. What a great idea, talking about destroying stuff from other people's homes.
>
> 'the timbre is always exactly the same - track after track'
>
> You do know, do you, that harpsichords have different registers?

While I wouldn't put it the same way, I agree with the sentiment that
John is expressing - the timbre of the harpsichord is not attractive to
many people (we've all heard that jape about the skeletons...).

Over the years I haven't attended many concerts, and very few featured
harpsichord, but one thing that is obvious in person is the delicate
sound of the instrument - somehow this doesn't come across in
recordings, which seem to emphasize the clangor instead.

In looking over my Scarlatti collection, even though I have roughly 30
CDs of the sonatas, only one (Kipnis) features the harpsichord!

Herman, if you agree at all about this, I wonder if you could recommend
a few CDs that recorded the harpsichord more accurately, allowing the
subtleties to be appreciated? (It could be ones of Scarlatti - or
Couperin, Frescobaldi, etc) Thanks!!

[Mandryka]

Absolutely and many baroque composers expected people to adjust the score to make it fit the instrument. Organs were tuned in different ways, and so unwanted dissonances might appear without changes. Bach’s harpsichord music is full of stuff which can’t be played on harpsichord (I can find a list if anyone wants it.)

But the point I want to make is that Scarlatti seems particularly interested in timbre. And anyway, apart from 30 pieces he never published anything. So maybe he was an exception. Maybe he really did have the sound of an instrument in mind when he composed

[Herman]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 10:59:49 PM UTC+2, Notsure01 wrote:
> I wonder if you could recommend
> a few CDs that recorded the harpsichord more accurately, allowing the
> subtleties to be appreciated? (It could be ones of Scarlatti - or
> Couperin, Frescobaldi, etc) Thanks!!

we have been enjoying the Fréderick Haas recordings of Couperin's works, on a sumptuously recorded original Hemsch from 1751. Two 2CDs, on Alpha and on Hitasura. He's also recorded 21 Scarlatti sonatas, but I'm not familiar that album and if it's equally well-recorded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx_3ZicYYM4

[Herman]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 10:57:36 PM UTC+2, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> If a composer were commercially minded, wouldn't it be more advantageous for him to compose music that could be played on as many different instruments as possible or to compose music that would also appeal to musicians who played other instruments?

You seem to be unaware that most composers pre-1775 worked in the employ of noblemen or church. Scarlatti has been mentioned. He was part of the royal court in Madrid (Spain). He hardly published any of his work. Two generations later, Joseph Haydn spent most of his working life in the court of count Esterhazy.

[Notsure01]

On 10/26/22 4:26 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 10/26/2022 2:58 PM, Herman wrote:

>> That is so funny. Not.
>
> Having demonstrated over the years that you have no sense of humor (as
> in zero) you couldn't possibly know what is funny to normal people.
>

Hi Frank!

While I have enormous respect for John Gavin (particularly when he
agrees with me) that joke strikes too close to home for Herman -
literally since he lives with a harpsichord!

I also agree with Herman that we need less nastiness here - and one of
the great things about Herman is his tireless efforts to try to bring
the focus back to classical recordings.

Certainly no one comes here for my (lame) attempts at humor, but
hopefully this won't drive people away the way nastiness does.

One of the things that led me to become a participant here rather than a
lurker is that, after years of dire predictions of its demise this group
may be fading away. Think of how many members have gone over the last
two years...

I'm trying my best to act like a... Tummler (if that is the right word)
By starting more conversations and trying to be respectful I hope we can
help RMCR to thrive and grow.

And Frank, while I haven't always agreed with you, I appreciate your
knowledge and the remarkable thoughtfulness of your posts.

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 10:32:33 AM UTC-7, Steven Bornfeld wrote:

Could this explain all those guitar transcriptions?:

- There are many passages in Scarlatti's pieces, in which he imitated the melody of tunes sung by the carriers, muleteers (mule
drivers), and common people.

https://content.alfred.com/catpages/00-666.pdf

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 10:08:37 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> One thing worth considering is that Scarlatti had access to pianos in Maria Magdalena Barbara’s instrument collection. Not pianos like modern instruments obvs., less pure pitches than that, and less power. But still, instruments with more dynamic variation than a clavichord, and less brilliance than a harpsichord. He’s an important composer partly because he was one of the first to explore the piano’s potential. There’s a disc by Enrico Baiano on Stradivarius which explores this - a good disc IMO - vol 12 of their Complete Scarlatti series.

According to this:

- Despite the fact that most of the sonatas were definitely composed for the harpsichord, Scarlatti developed the musical resources of the keyboard so completely and with such ingenuity that he has been called the founder of modern piano technic.

https://content.alfred.com/catpages/00-666.pdf

[gggg gggg]

According to this:

- But what was bizarre and outlandish in the eighteenth century, like many things, has now been enrolled in the liturgy of piano pedagogy...Kirkpatrick was aware of Scarlatti’s worth for non-harpsichordists; he believed a diligent approach to the study of Scarlatti’s sonatas, both in terms of a ‘hard-headed workman’s analytical and technical approach to music’ and a ‘warm, imaginative, and even romantic willingness to transcend syntax and literal meaning,’ would allow us ‘to move humbly and fearlessly in the realm of the unexplainable.’ [11] In the appendix to his Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique (1928), Alfred Cortot wrote that ‘Scarlatti’s pieces for the harpsichord, like the best technical studies, offer an infinite variety of problems of execution, together with real musical merits, of which the latter are too frequently devoid. We cannot sufficiently urge the studious pupil to devote an attentive study to them, for it will especially benefit clearness, precision and lightness of touch.’ [12]

https://edwardcampbellrowntree.com/writing/domenico-scarlatti-style-philosophy-technique

[Frank Berger]

On 10/26/2022 6:23 PM, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 10/26/22 4:26 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 10/26/2022 2:58 PM, Herman wrote:
>
>>> That is so funny. Not.
>>
>> Having demonstrated over the years that you have no sense of humor (as in zero) you couldn't possibly know what is funny to normal people.
>>
>
> Hi Frank!
>
> While I have enormous respect for John Gavin (particularly when he agrees with me) that joke strikes too close to home for Herman

Taking a remark like that personally is ridiculous.

- literally since he lives with a harpsichord!
>
> I also agree with Herman that we need less nastiness here

You appear to have ignored, or not seen many of Herman's posts which are rife with nastiness.

- and one of the great things about Herman is his tireless efforts to try to bring the focus back to classical recordings.

He is a scold. See below.

>
> Certainly no one comes here for my (lame) attempts at humor, but hopefully this won't drive people away the way nastiness does.
>

Many people think sarcasm is nastiness. How a statement like "This is really great weather" (when you mean the opposite) is nasty is beyond me. Sarcasm, like all forms of humor CAN be nasty, but isn't necessarily. Dictionaries and researchers who say it is are wrong. Context is everything.

> One of the things that led me to become a participant here rather than a lurker is that, after years of dire predictions of its demise this group may be fading away. Think of how many members have gone over the last two years...
>

We get old. We die. If the number of people who appreciated what we call classical music didn't decline with the generations, I suspect it wouldn't be called classical music. It would be called pop or contemporary or something like that. I also suspect that the number of people who have left simply because of the negativeness is exaggerated.

> I'm trying my best to act like a... Tummler (if that is the right word)

German/Yiddish, I suppose. I think the modern word is influencer.

By starting more conversations and trying to be respectful I hope we can help RMCR to thrive and grow.
>

Go for it. But don't hold your breath.

> And Frank, while I haven't always agreed with you, I appreciate your knowledge and the remarkable thoughtfulness of your posts.

You appear to me the nicest guy here. Despite my last (and previous) post to Herman, I prefer that our conversations, never, ever get personal. But when someone else does, I can't help replying in kind. Herman's attacks on Dan are ridiculous (and useless), as well as those against Hurwitz and others. The way to get conversations back on topic is to post on-topic.

[Notsure01]

On 10/26/22 8:04 PM, Frank Berger wrote:

>>
>> I also agree with Herman that we need less nastiness here
>
> You appear to have ignored, or not seen many of Herman's posts which are
> rife with nastiness.
>

>> By starting more conversations and trying to be respectful I hope we can
>> help RMCR to thrive and grow.
>
> Go for it.  But don't hold your breath.
>

> The way to get conversations back on topic
> is to post on-topic.

One thing we should agree on is that - just like classical recordings -
*we* could all be better!

And I have seen the bad blood here over the years, and certainly realize
that my habit of taking everyone's side at some point will result in my
having no friends,,,

But that reminds me of a joke (everything does):

A couple walk into a priest's office.

Wife. We have not been getting along. We need your help in deciding
who is at fault! My husband is lazy and doesn't help around the house.
He neglects me and is always listening to that annoying music. He spends
our money on endless versions of Bruckner 8th so we can't afford to eat
out...And his feet smell! It's definitely mainly his fault why we have a
bad relationship.

Priest. You're right.

Husband. Now wait a minute! My wife fritters away money on clothes,
cosmetics, and geegaws. She is always gossiping with her friends or
posting on social media. Last night I was almost finished listening to
Parsifal and she interrupted me to take out the trash just when I was
going to find out how it ends! She is obviously at fault!!

Priest. You're right.

Wife and Husband together. We can't both be right!!

Priest. You're right.

(A Tummler is someone that is employed by a resort to get folks to
socialize. He tells bad jokes and starts conversations to help lighten
the mood. I hope people don't mind my Tummling - let me know if you do).

I'll now take Frank's advice and get back to pontificating about music.

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go".

[gggg gggg]

You gotta have pretty thick skin to stick around THIS place.

[gggg gggg]

According to this:

- More recently, Scarlatti has been increasingly regarded as 'the piano's first great advocate', and recordings have been made on pianos of the Florentine type made by Bartolomeo Cristofori, which Scarlatti would have known and which his patrons imported to Portugal and Spain.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30139521

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 2:51:06 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 12:05:21 AM UTC+2, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> > My point is that there are some prolific composers
> > (Boccherini, Milhaud) that are known for a few works - but the rest of
> > their music is neglected. For Vivaldi, there are huge quantities of
> > concertos, and while there is that famous piece, other sets of concertos
> > are prominent also (I enjoy L'Estro Armonico). Compare the number of
> > recordings of Vivaldi to those of Telemann...
> >
> > While I agree with Herman's point, the fact that there are 555 Scarlatti
> > sonatas (each a gem) hasn't affected his popularity.
> >
> > Maybe Vivaldi is simply a better composer than Telemann?
> >
> > (We could get into a discussion now of why certain favorite works are so
> > seldom performed - a perennial subject for sure - but that is worthy of
> > a separate thread).
> >
> > (And I like Telemann's A Minor suite for recorder better than the Bach
> > suites -- and enjoy the Overture Burlesque de Quichotte.
>
> This is lifted from the WAYTL topic.
>
> I am not aware of any 'popularity' of Scarlatti. Some pro performers play a couple Scarlatti pieces as warm-ups or encores, and of course their are a lot of amateur pianists who play Scarlatti sonatas at home. I once sat through a recital of 45 minutes of Scarlatti and it drove me crazy.
> Telemann is an excellent composer for amateur recorder or violin. Of course professional performers would make a much better job of it, however nothing could move me to buy a Telemann CD. Telemann did not compose for CD players but for people who could play or perform his music, and that's what they're doing right now. I call that successful.
> I wouldn't really know how to measure whether Vivaldi is better than Telemann, and it's a fairly meaningless exercise anyway. Perhaps his melodic gift was a little stronger.

When did Scarlatti first encounter the pianoforte?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kzY9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA121&dq=%22It+is+unclear+whether+Scarlatti+first+encountered+the+pianoforte+in+his+native+Italy%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKqInbq__6AhXfKkQIHUybD60Q6AF6BAgIEAI#v=onepage&q=%22It%20is%20unclear%20whether%20Scarlatti%20first%20encountered%20the%20pianoforte%20in%20his%20native%20Italy%22&f=false

[Herman]

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 4:19:28 AM UTC+2, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> When did Scarlatti first encounter the pianoforte?:
>

It's always a sign that a topic is reaching its end when gggg starts posting multiple vaguely related links.
However, I said before that the whole question of when and if 'Scarlatti encountered a pianoforte' reminds me of rather colonial narratives where the entire life purpose of native people was to finally, fatally, run into white civilized people and get enslaved or just shot.
Scarlatti wasn't an early eighteenth century composer and virtuoso waiting to become a Beethoven precursor. He was an early eighteenth century composer, and naturally, his ties were with the present and the past. Not the future.

[Dan Koren]

You mean he had no ties with G8 ?!?

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 2:51:06 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 12:05:21 AM UTC+2, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> > My point is that there are some prolific composers
> > (Boccherini, Milhaud) that are known for a few works - but the rest of
> > their music is neglected. For Vivaldi, there are huge quantities of
> > concertos, and while there is that famous piece, other sets of concertos
> > are prominent also (I enjoy L'Estro Armonico). Compare the number of
> > recordings of Vivaldi to those of Telemann...
> >
> > While I agree with Herman's point, the fact that there are 555 Scarlatti
> > sonatas (each a gem) hasn't affected his popularity.
> >
> > Maybe Vivaldi is simply a better composer than Telemann?
> >
> > (We could get into a discussion now of why certain favorite works are so
> > seldom performed - a perennial subject for sure - but that is worthy of
> > a separate thread).
> >
> > (And I like Telemann's A Minor suite for recorder better than the Bach
> > suites -- and enjoy the Overture Burlesque de Quichotte.
>
> This is lifted from the WAYTL topic.
>
> I am not aware of any 'popularity' of Scarlatti. Some pro performers play a couple Scarlatti pieces as warm-ups or encores, and of course their are a lot of amateur pianists who play Scarlatti sonatas at home. I once sat through a recital of 45 minutes of Scarlatti and it drove me crazy.
> Telemann is an excellent composer for amateur recorder or violin. Of course professional performers would make a much better job of it, however nothing could move me to buy a Telemann CD. Telemann did not compose for CD players but for people who could play or perform his music, and that's what they're doing right now. I call that successful.
> I wouldn't really know how to measure whether Vivaldi is better than Telemann, and it's a fairly meaningless exercise anyway. Perhaps his melodic gift was a little stronger.

(2022 book): "Bach, Handel and Scarlatti: Reception in Britain 1750–1850"

https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/bach-handel-and-scarlatti/F9A0200EDC26CC84777228EB2CFED19F

[gggg gggg]

- A man has need of tough ears to hear himself fairly judged.

Michel de Montaigne