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Brahms Violin concerto-Oistrakh vs.Vengerov
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basnperson
Oct 2, 2012, 7:07:57 PM10/2/12
to
Lets comment on 2 great violinists, so different from each other in
personality, interpretation, etc. ....
A few days ago, my local classical station broadcast Oistrakh-
Klemperer studio version of the Brahms VC. I tuned in early in the
first movt. had no idea who was playing. It was obvious that this was
top of line playing, absolutely perfect intonation, tone always
clear. By the end of the 2nd movt I was losing interest and listened
to the end mainly because i wanted to know who the soloist was. There
seemed to be some lack of emotional involvement..... there was no real
passion to the playing. But it was so assured and clean.....
Last nite a friend infomed me that mediciTV was offering the entire
video of the Brahms VC with Vengerov. He has been absent from the
concert stage for a while and I was curious to hear what his playing
was like after this long layoff.
The contrast in playing between these 2 musicians is striking........
There is an intensity and passion in V.s playing that is mostly
missing from Oistrakh. V. does not have the immaculate technique of
Oistrakh, there were quite a few minor 'mishaps' and V. does not play
with the ease that was Oistrakh's. But the conception was so dramatic
that one ignores little and not so little slips.. like one listens to
Schanbel or Kempff. I do have one serious quibble....... he played a
cadenza (which i asume was his own) that made little or no sense.
Sure, more performers use the Joachim or Kreisler cadenza, Heifetz in
his 2 commercial recordings uses 2 others which are very exciting and
musically appropriate..It is always nice to hear a different cadenza
from the usual.. V.s cadenza was way too long, and for me only
served as a fantastic display of virtuosity.
AB
personality, interpretation, etc. ....
A few days ago, my local classical station broadcast Oistrakh-
Klemperer studio version of the Brahms VC. I tuned in early in the
first movt. had no idea who was playing. It was obvious that this was
top of line playing, absolutely perfect intonation, tone always
clear. By the end of the 2nd movt I was losing interest and listened
to the end mainly because i wanted to know who the soloist was. There
seemed to be some lack of emotional involvement..... there was no real
passion to the playing. But it was so assured and clean.....
Last nite a friend infomed me that mediciTV was offering the entire
video of the Brahms VC with Vengerov. He has been absent from the
concert stage for a while and I was curious to hear what his playing
was like after this long layoff.
The contrast in playing between these 2 musicians is striking........
There is an intensity and passion in V.s playing that is mostly
missing from Oistrakh. V. does not have the immaculate technique of
Oistrakh, there were quite a few minor 'mishaps' and V. does not play
with the ease that was Oistrakh's. But the conception was so dramatic
that one ignores little and not so little slips.. like one listens to
Schanbel or Kempff. I do have one serious quibble....... he played a
cadenza (which i asume was his own) that made little or no sense.
Sure, more performers use the Joachim or Kreisler cadenza, Heifetz in
his 2 commercial recordings uses 2 others which are very exciting and
musically appropriate..It is always nice to hear a different cadenza
from the usual.. V.s cadenza was way too long, and for me only
served as a fantastic display of virtuosity.
AB
jrsnfld
Oct 3, 2012, 2:16:16 AM10/3/12
to
On Oct 2, 4:07 pm, basnperson <abachr...@att.net> wrote:
> Lets comment on 2 great violinists, so different from each other in
> personality, interpretation, etc. ....
>
> A few days ago, my local classical station broadcast Oistrakh-
> Klemperer studio version of the Brahms VC. I tuned in early in the
> first movt. had no idea who was playing. It was obvious that this was
> top of line playing, absolutely perfect intonation, tone always
> clear. By the end of the 2nd movt I was losing interest and listened
> to the end mainly because i wanted to know who the soloist was. There
> seemed to be some lack of emotional involvement..... there was no real
> passion to the playing. But it was so assured and clean.....
>
> Last nite a friend infomed me that mediciTV was offering the entire
> video of the Brahms VC with Vengerov. He has been absent from the
> concert stage for a while and I was curious to hear what his playing
> was like after this long layoff.
> The contrast in playing between these 2 musicians is striking........
> There is an intensity and passion in V.s playing that is mostly
> missing from Oistrakh. V. does not have the immaculate technique of
> Oistrakh, there were quite a few minor 'mishaps' and V. does not play
> with the ease that was Oistrakh's. But the conception was so dramatic
> that one ignores little and not so little slips.. like one listens to
> Schanbel or Kempff.
My first thought was to remind you that it is always misleading to
> Lets comment on 2 great violinists, so different from each other in
> personality, interpretation, etc. ....
>
> A few days ago, my local classical station broadcast Oistrakh-
> Klemperer studio version of the Brahms VC. I tuned in early in the
> first movt. had no idea who was playing. It was obvious that this was
> top of line playing, absolutely perfect intonation, tone always
> clear. By the end of the 2nd movt I was losing interest and listened
> to the end mainly because i wanted to know who the soloist was. There
> seemed to be some lack of emotional involvement..... there was no real
> passion to the playing. But it was so assured and clean.....
>
> Last nite a friend infomed me that mediciTV was offering the entire
> video of the Brahms VC with Vengerov. He has been absent from the
> concert stage for a while and I was curious to hear what his playing
> was like after this long layoff.
> The contrast in playing between these 2 musicians is striking........
> There is an intensity and passion in V.s playing that is mostly
> missing from Oistrakh. V. does not have the immaculate technique of
> Oistrakh, there were quite a few minor 'mishaps' and V. does not play
> with the ease that was Oistrakh's. But the conception was so dramatic
> that one ignores little and not so little slips.. like one listens to
> Schanbel or Kempff.
compare live to studio. Vengerov's drama is a typical advantage of
live performances, and I would assume Oistrakh would benefit similarly
in front of an audience.
But then I did as you did, and I listened to one right after the
other, and then again in spots, and came to the opposite conclusion.
In this Verbier performance Vengerov is a passionate, capable player.
I don't think he takes anything for granted. He gives 100 percent (as
he did in his excellent, early recording of the Brahms on Teldec). Van
Zweden makes some sparks fly; the young orchestra is obviously digging
in as much as possible. But musically--at least this time around--I
don't think he's in Oistrakh's league.
Not only is Oistrakh (with Klemperer on EMI) giving every note and
phrase full consideration, but he's inventing distinctive, flexible
ways to phrase and color the music, bending it to his will in an oh so
subtle patrician manner that it basically becomes his own to a degree
that Vengerov can only approximate in a very generalized way. Oistrakh
is the very opposite of emotional disengagement--however, his emotion
is channeled, intensified by an endlessly varied musical intelligence.
He smolders, and the heat lingers--a perfect match for Klemperer's
similar approach--while Vengerov flames spectacularly (especially if
you watch, which is always a bad idea--close your eyes!) without
consuming anything substantial.
Vengerov has the better oboist, better winds overall--that counts for
a lot here--and a fine accompanying conductor with some ideas of his
own. Together they make a top-notch concert. But ultimately the
Oistrakh with Klemperer is a classic for good reason. Nothing is
stinted, everything speaks eloquently, the hues are vivid in the usual
Klemperer manner; I find myself riveted by the mastery and emotion of
a great pairing like this (which isn't to say I haven't admired other
Oistrakh performances as well, with different conductors).
--Jeff
basnperson
Oct 3, 2012, 1:33:39 PM10/3/12
to
> My first thought was to remind you that it is always misleading to
> compare live to studio. Vengerov's drama is a typical advantage of
> live performances, and I would assume Oistrakh would benefit similarly
> in front of an audience.
impression . Incredible ease and polish but little passion.
> But then I did as you did, and I listened to one right after the
> other, and then again in spots, and came to the opposite conclusion.
> In this Verbier performance Vengerov is a passionate, capable player.
> I don't think he takes anything for granted. He gives 100 percent (as
> he did in his excellent, early recording of the Brahms on Teldec). Van
> Zweden makes some sparks fly; the young orchestra is obviously digging
> in as much as possible. But musically--at least this time around--I
> don't think he's in Oistrakh's league.
absolute perfection, ease of execution, then O. certainly is the one
to go for. For me, at least in this situaion, the musical excitement
of V. is more important.
> Not only is Oistrakh (with Klemperer on EMI) giving every note and
> phrase full consideration, but he's inventing distinctive, flexible
> ways to phrase and color the music, bending it to his will in an oh so
> subtle patrician manner that it basically becomes his own to a degree
> that Vengerov can only approximate in a very generalized way. Oistrakh
> is the very opposite of emotional disengagement--however, his emotion
> is channeled, intensified by an endlessly varied musical intelligence.
> He smolders, and the heat lingers--a perfect match for Klemperer's
> similar approach--while Vengerov flames spectacularly (especially if
> you watch, which is always a bad idea--close your eyes!) without
> consuming anything substantial.
friend, Russian emigre who played in the 1st violin section of the NY
Phil. Many years ago i asked him his thoughts..... and he basically
agreed with me though we both agreed that O.s command of the
instrument was remarkable. But my friend and I are absoute worshipers
of Kreisler, so we 'come from a different place'.......
>
> Vengerov has the better oboist, better winds overall--
yes, that is old fashioned oboe playiing, no vibrato....... things
> Vengerov has the better oboist, better winds overall--
have come a long way since then.
V. did have molstly better woodwinds, the brass was pretty bad at
times and the 1st bassoon's intonation was not accurate.
AB
Mort
Oct 3, 2012, 3:40:06 PM10/3/12
to
Why focus on just the D. Oistrakh-Klemperer recording? There are several
others that one might find to be better in tempo, interpretation, sound,
etc..
Mort Linder
basnperson
Oct 3, 2012, 4:06:58 PM10/3/12
to
Vengerov and the great contrast between these 2 players
AB
wade
Oct 3, 2012, 4:37:54 PM10/3/12
to
basnperson
Oct 3, 2012, 6:34:21 PM10/3/12
to
On Oct 3, 4:07 pm, Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It's a very good and exciting performance overall, though not uniquely so.
so what would be a 'unique' performance that you could point out to
all of us?
AB
> Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 19:33:39 UTC+2, basnperson a écrit :
>
>
>
> > yes, that is old fashioned oboe playiing, no vibrato....... things
>
> > have come a long way since then.
>
> Very amusing how the Verbier cameracrew focuses on the first flute as "the cute girl", even cutting to her as he announces the encore while she's fiddling with her hair.
>
>
>
> > yes, that is old fashioned oboe playiing, no vibrato....... things
>
> > have come a long way since then.
>
>
> It's a very good and exciting performance overall, though not uniquely so.
so what would be a 'unique' performance that you could point out to
all of us?
AB
zamansky12
Oct 4, 2012, 12:52:32 AM10/4/12
to
There are, in fact, at least two videos of Oistrakh in the Brahms Concerto:
an EMI Classic Archive disc, conducted by Rozhdestvensky, and an ICA
Legacy
disc, conducted by Kondrashin.
"wade" wrote in message
news:dcf37df7-1fb3-4511...@googlegroups.com...
an EMI Classic Archive disc, conducted by Rozhdestvensky, and an ICA
Legacy
disc, conducted by Kondrashin.
"wade" wrote in message
news:dcf37df7-1fb3-4511...@googlegroups.com...
Oscar
Oct 4, 2012, 2:23:07 AM10/4/12
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 3:34:21 PM, basnperson wrote:
>
> > It's a very good and exciting performance overall, though not uniquely so.
>
> so what would be a 'unique' performance that you could point out to
> all of us?
My current favorite is a 1946 performance by Efrem Zimbalist w/ the Boston Symphony Orchestra and Serge Koussevitzky, restored last year by Mark Obert-Thorn http://tiny.cc/y84mlw
>
> > It's a very good and exciting performance overall, though not uniquely so.
>
> so what would be a 'unique' performance that you could point out to
> all of us?
<<The source for the Brahms was a CD-R copied from a tape transfer of the original broadcast acetates. Although there are some intermittent problems, the basic sound quality is notably above average for broadcast transcriptions of that era. There is a wealth of audible detail, including Koussevitzky’s spoken “Bravo” at the end of Zimbalist’s sublime performance of the second movement.>>
Caveat: those uncouth Bostonians clap between movements — the nerve!
MELMOTH
Oct 4, 2012, 3:16:26 AM10/4/12
to
Ce cher mammif�re du nom de basnperson nous susurrait, le mercredi
03/10/2012, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de m�me, et dans le message
<1d0f8ef3-67a1-4838...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
les doux m�lismes suivants :
> Lets comment on 2 great violinists, so different from each other in
> personality, interpretation, etc. ....
Brahms VC ?...
*Milstein* / *Monteux*...(live)
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accro�t sa science accro�t sa douleur.
[Eccl�siaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
03/10/2012, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de m�me, et dans le message
<1d0f8ef3-67a1-4838...@l32g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
les doux m�lismes suivants :
> Lets comment on 2 great violinists, so different from each other in
> personality, interpretation, etc. ....
*Milstein* / *Monteux*...(live)
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accro�t sa science accro�t sa douleur.
[Eccl�siaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
manish shah
Oct 4, 2012, 5:46:58 AM10/4/12
to
Top 5 Highest Paid Hollywood Actresses 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDqAk-6OZ0&feature=relmfu
Subscribe for more footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDqAk-6OZ0&feature=relmfu
Subscribe for more footage.
Allan Rogg
Oct 4, 2012, 8:40:06 AM10/4/12
to theo...@free.fr
. .... Brahms VC ?... *Milstein* / *Monteux*...(live) -- Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui accroît sa science accroît sa douleur. [Ecclésiaste, 1-18] MELMOTH - souffrant
When I found that in a store I had to pick it up. The concert took place the day I was born.
Allan Rogg
When I found that in a store I had to pick it up. The concert took place the day I was born.
Allan Rogg
Oscar
Oct 4, 2012, 8:51:55 AM10/4/12
to
Re Milstein/Monteux/RCO, October 1950
Milstein used his own cadenza in the first movement, right? I've been looking for that one. Which issue do you have?
Milstein used his own cadenza in the first movement, right? I've been looking for that one. Which issue do you have?
Allan Rogg
Oct 4, 2012, 9:28:47 AM10/4/12
to
On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:51:55 AM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> Re Milstein/Monteux/RCO, October 1950 Milstein used his own cadenza in the first movement, right? I've been looking for that one. Which issue do you have?
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=50639
> Re Milstein/Monteux/RCO, October 1950 Milstein used his own cadenza in the first movement, right? I've been looking for that one. Which issue do you have?
This is the one, and I got it for somewhere around half the Arkiv price.
Allan Rogg
basnperson
Oct 4, 2012, 9:18:36 PM10/4/12
to
On Oct 4, 1:51 am, Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Obviously, what I was saying is there are many good and exciting performances of the Brahms VC.
>
> I don't think there is a single winner. Certainly not in this very frequently played concerto.
>
> However, why don't you check out the Julia Fischer performance with MTT. Its conception is quite different from Vengerov's.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VmYTx4TsUs
Fischer....... very powerful, accurate. For me, lacks variety and
beauty of tone, lacks drama and the phrasing is just ordinary but she
sure plays the hell out of the violin! The cadenza is terrific
AB
>
> I don't think there is a single winner. Certainly not in this very frequently played concerto.
>
> However, why don't you check out the Julia Fischer performance with MTT. Its conception is quite different from Vengerov's.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VmYTx4TsUs
Fischer....... very powerful, accurate. For me, lacks variety and
beauty of tone, lacks drama and the phrasing is just ordinary but she
sure plays the hell out of the violin! The cadenza is terrific
AB
Al Eisner
Oct 8, 2012, 9:38:54 PM10/8/12
to
On Thu, 4 Oct 2012, zamansky12 wrote:
> There are, in fact, at least two videos of Oistrakh in the Brahms Concerto:
> an EMI Classic Archive disc, conducted by Rozhdestvensky, and an ICA
> Legacy disc, conducted by Kondrashin.
What I guess is that same Rozhdestvensky (is it?) is on youtube in full,
> There are, in fact, at least two videos of Oistrakh in the Brahms Concerto:
> an EMI Classic Archive disc, conducted by Rozhdestvensky, and an ICA
> Legacy disc, conducted by Kondrashin.
dated Feb. 1966, Moscow. It's chopped into five chunks, with three of
the breaks in the middle of the first two movements. (One slight oddity
is in some of the early tutti sections, the video is replaced by still
photos of Oistrakh.) Start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE3sJeDX-U,
The sound is not good, but the violin-playing comes through well.
--
Al Eisner
Jenn
Oct 9, 2012, 6:28:00 PM10/9/12
to
In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris02.slac.stanford.edu>,
I heard David Kim, concertmaster of the Philadelphia play it here in San
Luis Obispo, CA on Saturday night (no trombones in that work). It was
marvelous. He's a fine, sensitive player.
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris02.slac.stanford.edu>,
Luis Obispo, CA on Saturday night (no trombones in that work). It was
marvelous. He's a fine, sensitive player.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
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gggg gggg
Feb 26, 2022, 2:20:49 AM2/26/22
to
Repertoire: The BEST Brahms Violin Concerto
Dan Koren
Feb 26, 2022, 8:05:09 PM2/26/22
to
On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 2:20:49 AM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> (Recent Y. upload):
>
> Repertoire: The BEST Brahms Violin Concerto
Link ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
>
> (Recent Y. upload):
>
> Repertoire: The BEST Brahms Violin Concerto
Paul A
Feb 26, 2022, 8:39:02 PM2/26/22
to
Dan Koren
Feb 26, 2022, 8:41:02 PM2/26/22
to
dk
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