Bruno Maderna's Mozart 38

[mandryka]

Someone's put a copy of a concert that Bruno Maderna gave in 1971 on
symphonyshare, from 1971. It has a Prague Symphony in it.

This is a great and deep and daring and iconoclastic performance.
Maderna appreciates above all the tension in this music, and for
Maderna the tension is sometimes hardly resolved. There's absolutely
nothing comfortable in Maderna's 38. The result may be one sided, but
that's no hardship. If you know his Mahler you'll know he's a good
story teller. Same here. The Oorchestre National de France play their
heart out for him.

What a fine musician Bruno Maderna was!

[jrsnfld]

Agreed! Storytelling is a good way to describe his conducting. I was
thinking similar thoughts about Mitropoulos while listening to his
Pathetique earlier today...the way he gets the orchestra to alter its
tone, play with such utter simplicity and "dejection" in the last
pages is quite poignant and difficult to describe if you haven't
experienced the mania of the preceding 40 minutes.

Beecham could often do colorful storytelling, but in terms of musical
depth, Maderna is the king of podium story tellers!

--Jeff

[mandryka]

Yes -- one thing that's interesting is to dig out Mitropoulos's
Beethoven's 4th piano concerto with Rubinstein. I like it much more
than all the other Rubinstein recordings of this concerto precisely
because of Mitropoulos's feel for tension and story -- which brings
out the best in the pianist too I think.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<8d248d6e-eca2-49a4...@d3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,

Fine might be an understatement. I'll have to listen to this, appreciate
the lead. I have the Prague Symphony that he did in 1970 in Saarbruken,
c/w the K. 491 that he did with Kempff in 1967 -- part of Arkadia's
Maderna edition. The latter is really extraordinary.

SE.

[mandryka]

On Nov 14, 7:11 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <8d248d6e-eca2-49a4-afbe-142625621...@d3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,

Aha. I haven't heard any of his other Mozart recordings so thank YOU
for those leads :)

[jrsnfld]

That Arkadia disc is a gem; also, there's a recording on the
Stradivarius label of Maderna conducting the Symphony No. 18 (Fmaj),
coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (indispensable, if not
perfect!) and Schoenberg's 5 Pieces (all with RAI Torino).

--Jeff

[mandryka]

I have the record with the Rite. Does anyone have the one with Mozart
Symphony 40 and Mendelssohn 3? If so can they share it with me? It's
just impossible to find.

I've decided I want to hear everything Maderna recorded. I've been
enjoying his Francois Villon Ballades and Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnol
today.

This discography of the Maderna Edition is tempting, but of course
some of these things are very hard to find.

[mandryka]

I meant this discography

http://music.geocities.jp/yosijyun_shumi/arkadia/maderna.html

[jrsnfld]

On Nov 17, 11:02 am, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 8:40 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:

> > That Arkadia disc is a gem; also, there's a recording on the
> > Stradivarius label of Maderna conducting the Symphony No. 18 (Fmaj),
> > coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (indispensable, if not
> > perfect!) and Schoenberg's 5 Pieces (all with RAI Torino).
>
> > --Jeff
>
> I have the record with the Rite. Does anyone have the one with  Mozart
> Symphony 40 and Mendelssohn 3? If so can they share it with me? It's
> just impossible to find.

I've never seen it. Does it actually exist? (That website you linked
has question marks by it...the only Maderna Mendelssohn 3 I've seen is
in the big Concertgebouw box set.)

>
> I've decided I want to hear everything Maderna recorded.

Same here.

--Jeff

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Me too.

Some years ago a friend sent me a live recording of Maderna
conducting Brahms's First Symphony. Extraordinary. Phenomenal. A new
look and breath into the work without in any way altering or
distorting it. Maderna was obviously a genius among conductors.
Perhaps other things, too. But who made commercial recordings with him
as a conductor?

Don Tait

[jrsnfld]

On Nov 17, 1:17 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

L'oiseau Lyre and RCA are the only labels, off the top of my head,
that made or distributed commercial recordings with Maderna
conducting.

--Jeff

[mandryka]

Be sure to try the Rapsodie Espagnol that was posted on symphonyshare,
from the same 1971 Paris concert as the Mozart 38. It's fantastic!

Howard

[jrsnfld]

That Ravel is on a Maderna Edition CD from Arkadia...it's a great disc
all around.

--Jeff

[Tassilo]

Don Tait asked, "But who made commercial recordings with [Maderna] as a conductor?

Jeff responded, "L'oiseau Lyre and RCA are the only labels, off the top of my head, that made or distributed commercial [i.e., studio] recordings with Maderna conducting."

The only studio recordings featuring Bruno Maderna that I know of are on Oiseau-Lyre and RCA, but Telefunken released a memorial album on LP in part to help raise money for Maderna’s widow and family, this live concert:

Messiaen: Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum
Lutoslawski: Trois poèmes d’Henri Michaux
Stravinsky: Canticum sacrum
Boulez: cummings ist der dichter
ORF-Chor Wien
ORF-Symphonieorchester Wien
Gottfried Preinfalk, Chorleitung und Co-dirigent
Bruno Maderna, Dirigent
Salzburg, Großer Saal des Mozarteums, 29.7.1973

Stradivarius has released his very last concert on CD, performances of Bartók’s first piano concerto and Schoenberg’s piano concerto with Alfred Brendel and the BBC SO.

Finally, despite the problematic condition in which Maderna left many of his scores, there are two ongoing recorded editions of his music. Neos has undertaken a recording of his complete orchestral music with Arturo Tamayo, and there’s a Maderna edition on Stradivarius featuring recordings with Maderna and other conductors. (Look on Col legno, Naxos, Neos, Disques Montaigne/Naïve, DG, etc. for recordings of Maderna’s music.)

-david gable

[RiRiIII]

There is another recording issued in Maderna's liftetime with Monte Carlo SO and Helffer playing the 3rd PCti by Bartok and Prokofev:

http://www.discogs.com/Bartok-Prokofiev-Claude-Helffer-Orchestre-National-De-LOpéra-De-Monte-Carlo-Direction-Bruno-Maderna/release/3432763

Alex

[Steve Emerson]

In article <00c68711-a71b-49c5...@googlegroups.com>,

RiRiIII <alex_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> There is another recording issued in Maderna's liftetime with Monte Carlo SO
> and Helffer playing the 3rd PCti by Bartok and Prokofev:
>
> http://www.discogs.com/Bartok-Prokofiev-Claude-Helffer-Orchestre-National-De-L
> Opéra-De-Monte-Carlo-Direction-Bruno-Maderna/release/3432763

A terrific record. I think there may be an obscure CD issue of that one
as well. Pretty sure the recordings are live, though.

A Maderna-conducted Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste,
which is riveting, appeared on a label whose name I forget.

SE.

[RiRiIII]

On Monday, November 19, 2012 5:18:33 PM UTC+2, Steve Emerson wrote:
> In article <00c68711-a71b-49c5...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> RiRiIII <alex_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > There is another recording issued in Maderna's liftetime with Monte Carlo SO
>
> > and Helffer playing the 3rd PCti by Bartok and Prokofev:
>
> > http://www.discogs.com/Bartok-Prokofiev-Claude-Helffer-Orchestre-National-De-L
>

> > Op�ra-De-Monte-Carlo-Direction-Bruno-Maderna/release/3432763

>
>
>
> A terrific record. I think there may be an obscure CD issue of that one
>
> as well. Pretty sure the recordings are live, though.
>
>
>
> A Maderna-conducted Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste,
>
> which is riveting, appeared on a label whose name I forget.
>
>
>
> SE.

Sure. It is in vol. 11 of the Arkadia series with the OPRF rec in 9 april 71 and coupled with Tod und Verklaerung (SWF Baden Baden 23 sept 64) and Chant du Rossignol (RSO BERLIN, 13 may 69). In case interested I ll upload it.

Alex

[mandryka]

On Nov 19, 4:54 pm, RiRiIII <alex_ri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, November 19, 2012 5:18:33 PM UTC+2, Steve Emerson wrote:
> > In article <00c68711-a71b-49c5...@googlegroups.com>,
>

> >  RiRiIII <alex_ri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > There is another recording issued in Maderna's liftetime with Monte Carlo SO
>
> > > and Helffer playing the 3rd PCti by Bartok and Prokofev:
>

> > >http://www.discogs.com/Bartok-Prokofiev-Claude-Helffer-Orchestre-Nati...

>
> > > Op ra-De-Monte-Carlo-Direction-Bruno-Maderna/release/3432763
>
> > A terrific record. I think there may be an obscure CD issue of that one
>
> > as well. Pretty sure the recordings are live, though.
>
> > A Maderna-conducted Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste,
>
> > which is riveting, appeared on a label whose name I forget.
>
> > SE.
>
> Sure. It is in vol. 11 of the Arkadia series with the OPRF rec in 9 april 71 and coupled with Tod und Verklaerung (SWF Baden Baden 23 sept 64) and Chant du Rossignol (RSO BERLIN, 13 may 69). In case interested I ll upload it.
>
> Alex

Yes very interested -- it does seem hard to find through normal
channels

Howard

[Matthew B. Tepper]

RiRiIII <alex_...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in
news:0c6d7fa1-45aa-49cc...@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, November 19, 2012 5:18:33 PM UTC+2, Steve Emerson wrote:
>> In article <00c68711-a71b-49c5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> RiRiIII <alex_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > There is another recording issued in Maderna's liftetime with Monte
>> > Carlo SO and Helffer playing the 3rd PCti by Bartok and Prokofev:
>>
>> > http://www.discogs.com/Bartok-Prokofiev-Claude-Helffer-Orchestre-

>> > National-De-L'Opéra-De-Monte-Carlo-Direction-Bruno-Maderna/release/

>> > 3432763
>>
>> A terrific record. I think there may be an obscure CD issue of that one
>> as well. Pretty sure the recordings are live, though.
>>
>> A Maderna-conducted Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste,
>> which is riveting, appeared on a label whose name I forget.
>

> Sure. It is in vol. 11 of the Arkadia series with the OPRF rec in 9 april
> 71 and coupled with Tod und Verklaerung (SWF Baden Baden 23 sept 64) and
> Chant du Rossignol (RSO BERLIN, 13 may 69). In case interested I'll
> upload it.

Yes, please.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Al Eisner]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, jrsnfld wrote:

> L'oiseau Lyre and RCA are the only labels, off the top of my head,
> that made or distributed commercial recordings with Maderna
> conducting.

What is the origin of the Arkadia series?

And speaking of Arkadia, do you know anything about a 4-CD set of
Mahler #3, 5, 7 and 9 with a Milan (radio?) orchestra? Thanks.
--

Al Eisner

[jrsnfld]

On Nov 20, 4:39 pm, Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, jrsnfld wrote:
> > L'oiseau Lyre and RCA are the only labels, off the top of my head,
> > that made or distributed commercial recordings with Maderna
> > conducting.
>
> What is the origin of the Arkadia series?
>

Seems like all of them are pirated from radio broadcasts, not
commercial recordings.

> And speaking of Arkadia, do you know anything about a 4-CD set of
> Mahler #3, 5, 7 and 9 with a Milan (radio?) orchestra?  Thanks.

A must-have, of course, for Mahlerites and Madernians--for the 3rd and
5th at least.

--Jeff

[Al Eisner]

Sorry for the long delay in responding. I've been spending my time
trying to figure out what a "Mahlerite" is. Would I have to listen to
Mahler every day? At least once a week? Would I have to own at least
10 performances of each symphony? What if I only owned two of each?
Difficult questions.

Anyway, I asked about this because it seemed to be available at a low
price from several amazon.fr marketplace sellers. In a separate thread,
I reported the exorbitant shipping price amazon.fr tacked on to an
attempted order (which I then decided not to go through with). This
set, however, falls into a second category, which I've also encountered
with otehr attempts: they refuse to ship to the US at all. Probably
there aren't any true Mahlerites in the US, and amazon.fr is simply
policing the definition. :)

While I'm asking, one of the other items I tried there was the
Stradivarius CD which includes Maderna conducting the Rite of Spring.
They want 8 euros for the CD and an additional 8.5 for shipping.
Just how much is that CD worth? (A half-serious question. For one
CD I could look the other way on the cost if the item is really
desirable. Please don't tell me it is desirable to Stravinskyites.)

Thanks.
--

Al Eisner

[Lena]

On Nov 26, 5:28 pm, Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, jrsnfld wrote:
> > On Nov 20, 4:39 pm, Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012, jrsnfld wrote:
> >>> L'oiseau Lyre and RCA are the only labels, off the top of my head,
> >>> that made or distributed commercial recordings with Maderna
> >>> conducting.
>
> >> What is the origin of the Arkadia series?
>
> > Seems like all of them are pirated from radio broadcasts, not
> > commercial recordings.
>
> >> And speaking of Arkadia, do you know anything about a 4-CD set of
> >> Mahler #3, 5, 7 and 9 with a Milan (radio?) orchestra?  Thanks.
>
> > A must-have, of course, for Mahlerites and Madernians--for the 3rd and
> > 5th at least.
>
> Sorry for the long delay in responding.  I've been spending my time
> trying to figure out what a "Mahlerite" is.

(laugh) (and apologies :) )

> Would I have to listen to
> Mahler every day?  At least once a week?  Would I have to own at least
> 10 performances of each symphony?  What if I only owned two of each?
> Difficult questions.
>

Yes. And is Mahler's failure to qualify as a Mahlerite (by some of
these criteria) meaningful? :)

(Jeff, as the extremely smart and perceptive person he is, will
hopefully come and clarify everything!)

Lena

[jrsnfld]

On Nov 26, 5:28 pm, Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2012, jrsnfld wrote:

> >> And speaking of Arkadia, do you know anything about a 4-CD set of
> >> Mahler #3, 5, 7 and 9 with a Milan (radio?) orchestra?  Thanks.
>
> > A must-have, of course, for Mahlerites and Madernians--for the 3rd and
> > 5th at least.
>
> Sorry for the long delay in responding.  I've been spending my time
> trying to figure out what a "Mahlerite" is.  Would I have to listen to
> Mahler every day?  At least once a week?  Would I have to own at least
> 10 performances of each symphony?  What if I only owned two of each?
> Difficult questions.

Despite Lena's flattery, I have no answer to such questions. My two
cents: what counts is not what you have but what you want. I have an
evolving, never exhausted list of performances of Mahler that I want
to hear someday, but I do go through months where I have little
interest to hear any Mahler. Nobody listens to a composer every day or
every week--that would get old real fast. No matter what my mood,
however, I feel a twinge of regret whenever Mahler is played somewhere
and I'm not able to hear it. I doubt I will ever say "enough" with
Mahler, but I don't torture myself with Mahler, either. (Oh, and yes,
I do have a cake and blow out candles for July 7, but that is just an
innocent ploy to get an extra birthday onto my calendar!)

I think that makes me a Mahlerite, but there are others who earn such
credentials through scholarship, performance and other less shallow
criteria than the ones that earned me my "M" stripes.

Maderna is a really great, thought-provoking alternative. He isn't the
last word in Mahler--nobody is--but his performances are distinctive
and often profound (and yes, most of them are scruffy compared to the
usual recommendations). That set of 3-5-7-9 is not the last word in
Mahler, not "essential" for people looking to understand Mahler or
trying to get a well-rounded collection of great recordings. There are
oodles of fine Mahler recordings out there easier and cheaper to have
and sounding better. Maderna rarities are for people who are driven by
the desire to hear Mahler to the point that they'll be willing to
withstand modest-to-poor quality documents to hear something truly
special, with lasting impact on their hearing and tastes. People who
want to be shaken up a bit by the profundity of music in the face of
evident imperfection.

>
> Anyway, I asked about this because it seemed to be available at a low
> price from several amazon.fr marketplace sellers.  In a separate thread,
> I reported the exorbitant shipping price amazon.fr tacked on to an
> attempted order (which I then decided not to go through with).  This
> set, however, falls into a second category, which I've also encountered
> with otehr attempts:  they refuse to ship to the US at all.  Probably
> there aren't any true Mahlerites in the US, and amazon.fr is simply
> policing the definition.  :)
>
> While I'm asking, one of the other items I tried there was the
> Stradivarius CD which includes Maderna conducting the Rite of Spring.
> They want 8 euros for the CD and an additional 8.5 for shipping.
> Just how much is that CD worth?  (A half-serious question.  For one
> CD I could look the other way on the cost if the item is really
> desirable.  Please don't tell me it is desirable to Stravinskyites.)

The Rite is in the same category as the Mahler. Maderna's version is
far from ordinary and the passion and understanding Maderna has for
the music will hit you between the eyes. If you're unsure about the
Mahler, then I'd say the Stravinsky is a better option. It's a rich
listening experience, worth every penny but not an "oh now I can throw
out all my other recordings of Le Sacre" purchase.

--Jeff

[Al Eisner]

Actually, you took my questions above more seriously than they deserved.
But your next paragraph does provide me with something of an answer.
And I also enjoyed reading your response.

Thanks. It's not so much that I was unsure about the Mahler -- I've
heard Maderna's BBC 9th, and the price for the set was a good one (and,
additionally,a 4-CD set did not pose a large listening-time concern)
-- but rather, as I described above, that its apparent availability at
a decent price was a complete mirage. The Stradivarius disk, on the
other hand, does appear to be genuinely acquirable
--

Al Eisner

[jrsnfld]

On Nov 27, 2:40 pm, Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think that makes me a Mahlerite, but there are others who earn such
> > credentials through scholarship, performance and other less shallow
> > criteria than the ones that earned me my "M" stripes.
>
> Actually, you took my questions above more seriously than they deserved.
> But your next paragraph does provide me with something of an answer.
> And I also enjoyed reading your response.

The humor of your reply was evident, but I decided to answer seriously
for fun, anyway. :-)

Thanks for listening (at your own peril).

--Jeff

[Lena]

On Nov 27, 12:53 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:


> [...] I do go through months where I have little

> interest to hear any Mahler.

All my preconceived notions just went out the window.

> No matter what my mood,
> however, I feel a twinge of regret whenever Mahler is played somewhere
> and I'm not able to hear it. I doubt I will ever say "enough" with
> Mahler, but I don't torture myself with Mahler, either. (Oh, and yes,

> I do have a cake and blow out candles for July 7, [disclaimers omitted :) ]
>

That's a little better... :)

(And thanks for the thoughts. They were fun to read.)

Lena

[disqu...@gmail.com]

Hi, Maderna lovers,

I plan to publish (slowly) on my blog all the recordings I have (radio broadcasts, lps) with Maderna as conductor as well as composer, since I venerate him under both incarnations.
Meanwhile, you can type Maderna in the box on the top-left corner of http://lesparolesgelees.blogspot.com and see what you get....
Enjoy!

Daniel Pérez, aka disquobole