Misericordia, Deslignes, etc. - Medieval Music

[cheregi]

Medieval music is still to me a fairly alien world, I love a lot of the ideas around rhythm and the sheer weirdness of the polyphony before Ockeghem and Josquin, but I have a hard time with the recorded performances, which continue to sound airless and artificial to me in a way that anything Ockeghem or later no longer does. I just discovered the ensemble Misericordia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrwanv4Lkw&list=OLAK5uy_kXAiTIkAzvM7k2mO3AqbxD4wQr_YA4NGI&index=17) who seem to be doing something not all that different on the surface but somehow, subtly, quite distinct and compelling... Also have been enjoying Christophe Deslignes' solo organetto record, he seems like a real master of the instrument in terms of textures (breathiness, dynamics), so even his fanciful multitracked-polyphony experiments have a groundedness to them... album's not on youtube but there's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjz6EfHhaqo&list=OLAK5uy_lCH3BD_WeIeMpcq-ETVSgRcq-Y-zTvDLM

Anybody else have recommendations along these lines?

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <e018ece3-a50b-4fdd...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I just discovered the ensemble Misericordia ....

Never heard of them. It's amazing how, after all these years, and
so many people sending in info about albums, there are still medieval
albums from the past that appear....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <sh8f27$stl$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>Never heard of them.

I see that their first track (that they've released online) is with
Tim Rayborn (from 1995). Tim posted on rec.music.early for a while
(around that time)....

An ensemble of the time that I associate with this sort of sound
was the Quebec group La Nef.

[Mandryka]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 7:53:38 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:
> Medieval music is still to me a fairly alien world, I love a lot of the ideas around rhythm and the sheer weirdness of the polyphony before Ockeghem and Josquin, but I have a hard time with the recorded performances, which continue to sound airless and artificial to me in a way that anything Ockeghem or later no longer does. I just discovered the ensemble Misericordia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrwanv4Lkw&list=OLAK5uy_kXAiTIkAzvM7k2mO3AqbxD4wQr_YA4NGI&index=17) who seem to be doing something not all that different on the surface but somehow, subtly, quite distinct and compelling... Also have been enjoying Christophe Deslignes' solo organetto record, he seems like a real master of the instrument in terms of textures (breathiness, dynamics), so even his fanciful multitracked-polyphony experiments have a groundedness to them... album's not on youtube but there's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjz6EfHhaqo&list=OLAK5uy_lCH3BD_WeIeMpcq-ETVSgRcq-Y-zTvDLM
>
> Anybody else have recommendations along these lines?

How about my hero Rene Zosso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7gzI_-QZ2c&list=PLVTPiBNj4hCvIaJ-hfroDWUQSLHwyR7L1&ab_channel=Ren%C3%A9Zosso-Topic

or my other hero Eberhard Kummer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWo3kPp8IJo&t=230s&ab_channel=MichiZhenia

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <sh8gum$v41$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>An ensemble of the time that I associate with this sort of sound

>...

And let me note the obvious, particularly as regards the "audiophile"
remarks in another thread, this album by Misericordia is recorded
more like an album from popular music. (And was apparently a private
issue until they put it online.) I wager that's a big part of why
it sounds less "airless."

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <sh8j3m$io$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>... this album by Misericordia is recorded more like an album from
>popular music.

So, back to the original inquiry... John Renbourn? For some people
(not me), it was the first acquaintance with Machaut....

[Mandryka]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 7:53:38 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:

> Medieval music is still to me a fairly alien world, I love a lot of the ideas around rhythm and the sheer weirdness of the polyphony before Ockeghem and Josquin, but I have a hard time with the recorded performances, which continue to sound airless and artificial to me in a way that anything Ockeghem or later no longer does. I just discovered the ensemble Misericordia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrwanv4Lkw&list=OLAK5uy_kXAiTIkAzvM7k2mO3AqbxD4wQr_YA4NGI&index=17) who seem to be doing something not all that different on the surface but somehow, subtly, quite distinct and compelling... Also have been enjoying Christophe Deslignes' solo organetto record, he seems like a real master of the instrument in terms of textures (breathiness, dynamics), so even his fanciful multitracked-polyphony experiments have a groundedness to them... album's not on youtube but there's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjz6EfHhaqo&list=OLAK5uy_lCH3BD_WeIeMpcq-ETVSgRcq-Y-zTvDLM
>
> Anybody else have recommendations along these lines?

Helge Slaatt and Franck Rienecke, a Cd on Neos called Ars Nova - New Music

[Mandryka]

Ensemble Leones, Niedhart

[Mandryka]

Clemencic’s Troubadours CDs (I think there are 4) for Harmonia Mundi France.

[Mandryka]

Dominique Vellard, Chant des Cathédrales

[Mandryka]

The two Léonin CDs by Red Byrd

[Mandryka]

Ensemble De Caelis, Le livre d’aliénor. This has some good organetto stuff if I remember right.

[Lewis Perin]

Could you be more specific about the recording technique, please?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
https://babelcarp.org

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <pc74kau...@panix1.panix.com>,

Lewis Perin <pe...@panix.com> wrote:
>Could you be more specific about the recording technique, please?

Each instrument close mic'd & mixed.

[cheregi]

Actually, yes!!!!

[cheregi]

Very interesting, I had no idea what I was responding to was at least partially recording technique but listening again, of course!

[cheregi]

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:04:44 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:

Anyway, very much appreciate the recommendations, some of these groups I had written off I think unfairly and have more of an appreciation for this time around.

In that spirit I tried Micrologus again and suddenly it clicked, I can't get enough of their particular sound, I think I had only heard their early-90s material and they seem to have really hit their stride in the early 00s. And sure enough as I find myself reaching for vague and unhelpful descriptions like 'it just sounds more real, it breathes more', I discover that Micrologus (like Rebecca Stewart) actually has an explicitly ethnomusicological bent to its research and operation, Patrizia Bovi in particular has 'proper ethnomusicological credentials' via connection to Giovanna Marini vocal quartet... And it's not just 'oh, they sing it more in your face, more brash', it's something that goes deeper than that... And now finding that Micrologus is basically responsible for 'putting Zacara de Teramo on the map' as a composer of interest worthy of attention with their 2003 CD, and who belatedly now seems to be getting more attention (and myself caught up in this wave as someone suddenly very excited about this composer I only just learned about)...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <62ff2911-86c6-4040...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In that spirit I tried Micrologus again and suddenly it clicked ....

They have long been one of my favorite medieval groups. Do note
that the late Adolfo Broegg was responsible for much of their
repertory, however.

[Mandryka]

I was very much enjoying the Red Byrd Léonin survey yesterday. I like everything medieval and Renaissance that Red Byrd did - especially the Naxos recordings.

[cheregi]

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 11:31:11 PM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> I was very much enjoying the Red Byrd Léonin survey yesterday. I like everything medieval and Renaissance that Red Byrd did - especially the Naxos recordings.

There is something pleasantly hypnotic about Red Byrd's early polyphony, sort of like listening to 20th-c minimalism. Very successful at what it's trying to do. That said, I'm reading reviews which praise Red Byrd for really bringing out the melismatic nature of the music, and that's something I find almost laughable. Having heard European folk singing and Arabic classical singing and any of dozens of other traditions featuring melismas, and the relationship to breath and phoneme placement that happens in melismatic music, and the European early-music-scene melisma is cartoonish by comparison, like an approximation using a MIDI keyboard. Have you heard the Margot Kalse / Trigon Ensemble CD from 2000, Music for Candlemas? She does early polyphony (by anon., not Perotin or Leonin) with a technique that starts at Rebecca Stewart and then veers off into her own ideas about rhythmic definition, differentiated vibratos, microtonal embellishment and ornament, in other words generally 'getting off the page', in the 9-minute Alleluia late in the album especially. I noticed also Perotin on Graindelavoix's 'future projects' page, that's something I hope makes it onto a recording.

[cheregi]

In my recent survey of viol recordings I was sad to learn that Sophie Watillon had passed at such an early age as well, and around the same time... It's always a little jarring or surreal to be reminded so violently that I'm interacting with recordings made by real fleshy contemporary people, rather than with history itself (real fleshy long-dead people)...

Reading through some of Micrologus' liner notes I am surprised to learn just how much of Italian medieval art music was working in forms or with technologies (notational etc) imported from Paris. What this makes me wish for is a group as rigorously ethnomusicological in orientation as Micrologus but not as focused on the Mediterranean... Philippe de Vitry or Machaut alongside Micrologus' de la Halle... Incidentally I've seen some claims that Machaut wasn't exceptionally highly-regarded in his time but rather was able to publish so much for other reasons, and for example he appears very infrequently in medieval publications compiling multiple composers, and that actually his reputation as a master is really mostly just a contemporary phenomenon... Have you encountered this? Do you think that regardless of all of that he really is the or one of the best composers of his era?

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <bed9c111-08f5-4f20...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>What this makes me
>wish for is a group as rigorously ethnomusicological in orientation as
>Micrologus but not as focused on the Mediterranean...

Well, there's a lot more ethno-music still hanging around the
Mediterranean, so easier said than done....

E.g. Alla Francesca starts to get a little more "crunchy" in their
Thibaut de Champagne... they do know a lot of e.g. Breton music.

>Have you encountered this? Do you think that regardless of all of

>that he [Machaut] really is the or one of the best composers of
>his era?

First of all, to the last question, absolutely. Machaut fused the
trouvere lyric with Ars Nova rhythm-technique. And he did it at a
level that sounds absolutely natural. His genius for melody is
beyond most anyone's ever. (I would have to look to, say,
Thyagaraja....) That said, his contribution to sacred music tends
to be overstated.

I've seen suggestions that Machaut was relatively insular, and I
do think it's worth asking what the multiple, dedicated manuscripts
"mean" relative to anthologies. The thing you don't note, though,
is that various subsequent composers e.g. added lines to Machaut
songs, or refigured them in clear ways. His influence is palpable
throughout the Ars Subtilior, and even in some Landini.

[Mandryka]

No I haven't heard the Trigon recording but that's easy to correct. I'm listening to that Alleluia now. I much prefer Leonin to Perotin -- but this could be a question of performance. There's a viderunt omnes on the Vellard disc I mentioned which is iconoclastic and very much my cup of tea.

[Mandryka]

I'm not sure I agree that his contribution to sacred music is overstated, because I think the motet cycle is outstanding, and sacred.

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 7:26:13 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:

>
> What this makes me wish for is a group as rigorously ethnomusicological in orientation as Micrologus but not as focused on the Mediterranean

Sequentia. Gothic Voices. I'm sure there are others I'll remember later.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <aba14413-e68a-41e0...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think the motet cycle is outstanding, and sacred.

Only a handful of motets don't involve French & the language of
courtly love.

[Mandryka]

Yes, the theory that they had a sacred function is extensively and IMO convincingly argued in Anne Walters Robinson’s book “Machaut and Reims: Context and Meaning in his Musical Works”

[Mandryka]

Pérès of course!

[Mandryka]

Elizabeth Leach’s Machaut lectures for first year undergraduates may be of interest - there are other courses uploaded too.

https://eeleach.blog/2020/09/02/machaut-prelims-lecture-1/

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:45:05 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:

Katerina Livljanic/Dialogos

[Mandryka]

I must say, revisiting Hilliard’s Machaut motets this afternoon, I think this is exceptional music. And I prefer Hilliard’s poetic meaning- aware treatment to Ensemble Musica Nova.

[cheregi]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 3:30:13 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Well, there's a lot more ethno-music still hanging around the
> Mediterranean, so easier said than done....

Oh, of course! I hadn't even thought about this as a genuinely limiting factor, assuming, well, there's probably 'enough' out there...

> The thing you don't note, though,
> is that various subsequent composers e.g. added lines to Machaut
> songs, or refigured them in clear ways.

Very interesting - whatever it was I read didn't mention this. And in terms of 'elegance/skilfulness of composition' in medieval music I'm certainly at a level where I'm still susceptible to conflating composition and performance/recording, it's hard to 'hear past the sounds'... I would imagine you're one of relatively few outside early-music performers themselves who is really at that point...

[cheregi]

I'm familiar with most (well, not Dialogos...) of these groups and, sure, they're doing 'something' in this direction but to me it more often sounds like, well, we have these conservatory-trained voices, now let's subtract vibrato, add some conspicuous 'harshness', and call it a day... rather than, like, re-building 'how to sing' (I guess the question is rather different for instrument-playing) from the ground up. But this is just my uneducated impression, I'm starting to sound like the DBP-haters in the other thread, I'm sure all these people have great reasons for whatever they're doing (hopefully aside from, you know, constraints on the amount of time they can reasonable spend on a recording or on new research/learning/practice)...

(As you might expect, of those you mentioned Peres is the one to whom the above applies the least, as I hear it)

[Mandryka]

Have you heard this?

https://www.sequentia.org/recordings/recording29.html

[Mandryka]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:12:17 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:

The sequentia website has some interesting essays on it.

You may also be interested in Ed Breen's Ph.D



https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/45221245/2015_Breen_Edward_95025532_ethesis.pdf

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <c7ccfbb8-3d54-40f3...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>As you might expect, of those you mentioned Peres is the one to whom
>the above applies the least, as I hear it

Peres has been on the "how to sing" thing in this space for a
relatively long time, but do note that his ornamentation techniques
were specifically inspired by the Mediterranean region -- in terms
of your earlier question.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <a83a8b08-d7c9-468e...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I must say, revisiting Hilliard's Machaut motets this afternoon,
>I think this is exceptional music.

Even leaving the "sacredness" of the motets aside -- and it's
definitely worth noting that the sort of sacred-secular divide
that's often invoked subsequently (including here by me) wasn't
really the situation of the time, these notions flowing together
easily, and the motet originating as a hybrid form anyway... --
this is a relative matter. You will find, I think, that Machaut's
contemporaries also wrote some fine motets, including people somewhat
older than he. If you take all these Ars Nova motets and put them
in a big program, you won't be saying, I don't think, well, Machaut
towers over all the rest. Maybe he will have some of the favorites
though....

But now, for our thought experiment, let's consider say... the lais,
or the virelais... or ballades... & put the early Ars Nova (i.e.
prior to the later music influenced by Machaut) all in a big program,
and what does one hear? For the greatest works, there is Machaut,
and there is Machaut, and then maybe there is Machaut. And then
maybe eventually someone else, I'm not sure who....

[Mandryka]

Funny you should say that because just this week I was really enjoying some Adam de la Halle (CD by les Jardins de Courtoisie) and some Jehan de Lescauriel (Vellard). And I LOVE Bernart de Ventadorn as sung by Paloma Guttiérez del Arroyo.

Machaut's lais are interesting because they seem to be so often treated monophonically, and that's very challenging for both performer I guess and for me because I don't understand the old French spontaneously. That being said, I think Orlando have finally got the hang of how to do it in En demantant et lamentant on their latest release. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Machaut very much.

I think the impressive thing about Machaut's motets, apart from the musical interest, are (1) the texts -- he chose some crazy, bold texts, especially in the macaronic motets. And (2) the fact (arguably) that it's a cycle of 18 -- with a meaningful order representing a contemporary conception of spiritual journey.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <f36aed27-cc95-4d55...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Funny you should say that because just this week I was really enjoying
>some Adam de la Halle (CD by les Jardins de Courtoisie) and some Jehan
>de Lescauriel (Vellard). And I LOVE Bernart de Ventadorn as sung by
>Paloma Guttiérez del Arroyo.

You are only proving my point. None are contemporaries. :-)
(None are even Ars Nova!)

>I think the impressive thing about Machaut's motets, apart from
>the musical interest, are (1) the texts -- he chose some crazy,
>bold texts, especially in the macaronic motets. And (2) the fact
>(arguably) that it's a cycle of 18 -- with a meaningful order
>representing a contemporary conception of spiritual journey.

I.e. they're a lot like his chansons.

[Mandryka]

Can you supply a list of contemporaries? I can only think of Philippe de Vitry.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <cb9b3875-65ac-44ba...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Can you supply a list of contemporaries?

Not really, and that's the point. Gothic Voices tried to find some,
mostly anonymous, songs from that period in e.g. their Medieval
Romantics series.... (Or go through the list in Apel... mostly
anonymous.)

>I can only think of Philippe de Vitry.

And Vitry wrote little by way of French songs.

[Mandryka]

In the Leach Oxford lecture on Remède de Fortune, Lecture 3, she mentions that there’s only one complete recording of the complaint, and she challenges the audience to listen to it all attentively. I’m not sure I can manage it, but it is very good. It’s on Marc Mauillon’s CD. The French is quite clear, I’m sure I could get into a position where I could understand medieval French spontaneously, it seems less removed from Modern French than Chaucer does from modern English.

[Mandryka]

On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 2:47:26 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> In the Leach Oxford lecture on Remède de Fortune, Lecture 3, she mentions that there’s only one complete recording of the complaint, and she challenges the audience to listen to it all attentively. I’m not sure I can manage it, but it is very good. It’s on Marc Mauillon’s CD. The French is quite clear, I’m sure I could get into a position where I could understand medieval French spontaneously, it seems less removed from Modern French than Chaucer does from modern English.

At least, I’ve made the assumption she meant Mauillon, I’m not totally sure about that.

[cheregi]

I'd completely written off Sequentia on the basis of their Hildegard CDs. But now I'm absolutely floored by their Boethius recording. Just totally stunning music-making, a revelation. And the way Bagby writes about medieval music and the nuances of modality and what it means to connect to history, that's stunning too, just about the most lucid and moving writing on this topic I've come across. Thanks for the rec.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <a39bfd04-c1c5-4910...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'd completely written off Sequentia on the basis of their Hildegard
>CDs. But now I'm absolutely floored by their Boethius recording.

Yes, that's outside the "normal" repertory, but I'm impressed with
it too. I don't think e.g. their Edda program is as effective, but
it likewise presents a different research direction.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <a7afc8f0-0d00-4d27...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm sure I could get into a position where I could understand
>medieval French spontaneously, it seems less removed from Modern
>French than Chaucer does from modern English.

Ha, yes, I end up finding medieval French easier to understand, but
that's clearly a pathological position.... :-) (It's clearly the
simpler language, so this isn't actually absurd.) Medieval English
is indeed seemingly, uh, baroque.

[Mandryka]

I wonder whether Cheregi will enjoy Esther Lamandier.

[Mandryka]

For me some recent Sequentia is too extrovert and loud. I can handle it live (I saw them do a Beowulf show) but not at home. From memory, one recording I really enjoyed is the Bordesholmer Marienklang.

[cheregi]

On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 5:02:13 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> I wonder whether Cheregi will enjoy Esther Lamandier.

What videos I found on youtube were at least good for a laugh...

Anyway, I have respect for anybody choosing to devote themselves to medieval song, and it's at least interesting to hear the history of contemporary approaches. In the same way some people just can't get into Graindelavoix, I don't think I'll ever be able to actually hear the appeal of a voice like Lamandier's. The political implications of paying close attention to Ladino/Sephardic pronunciation but still using that totally Ashkenazi/conservatory voice technique seem complicated to say the least.

[Alan Cooper]

Lamandier's most, er, "interesting" recordings might be her renditions of Suzanne Haik-Vantoura's reconstructions of ancient biblical cantillation--one CD apiece devoted to Psalms and Song of Songs respectively. Prime crackpot stuff. See, e.g., https://ancientlyre.com/the-original-3000-year-old-music-of-the-bible-revealed.

AC

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 11:53:38 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> Medieval music is still to me a fairly alien world, I love a lot of the ideas around rhythm and the sheer weirdness of the polyphony before Ockeghem and Josquin, but I have a hard time with the recorded performances, which continue to sound airless and artificial to me in a way that anything Ockeghem or later no longer does. I just discovered the ensemble Misericordia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMrwanv4Lkw&list=OLAK5uy_kXAiTIkAzvM7k2mO3AqbxD4wQr_YA4NGI&index=17) who seem to be doing something not all that different on the surface but somehow, subtly, quite distinct and compelling... Also have been enjoying Christophe Deslignes' solo organetto record, he seems like a real master of the instrument in terms of textures (breathiness, dynamics), so even his fanciful multitracked-polyphony experiments have a groundedness to them... album's not on youtube but there's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjz6EfHhaqo&list=OLAK5uy_lCH3BD_WeIeMpcq-ETVSgRcq-Y-zTvDLM
>
> Anybody else have recommendations along these lines?

If you use the Youtube search engine to search the following, there may be things of interest:

Early Music Sources

[Mandryka]

Well I haven’t heard her Jewish songs, I only know her Ars Nova recording and a troubadours LP called chansons de toile, I think her voice there is very distinctive - in the same way as Barbara’s voice is distinctive or Dylan’s.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <f4d465ff-085d-473e...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>a troubadours LP called chansons de toile, ....

A chanson de toile is a woman's work song. That was an intriguing
album, although the style is dated....

[Mandryka]

I managed to find an image of the back of the LP sleeve -- rather informative.

[cheregi]

This is phenomenal, thanks. Regardless of historical veracity I'm a huge fan of projects like Haik-Vantoura's and would love to hear someone perform it, why not, in the style of Sequentia's Boethius!

As it happens I just stumbled across that ancientlyres website the other day while trying to assess how much money I'd have to spend to get myself a reasonable-quality reconstruction of ancient near-east 10-string lyre. Seems like an odd mix of genuine curiosity and erudition with the tone of a used-car salesman.

[cheregi]

I've enjoyed his videos and his Profeti Della Quinta recordings. He has a wonderful speaking and singing voice. Doesn't seem to engage much with properly medieval music, though.

[cheregi]

Very interesting repertoire! I'll have to listen to other interpretations...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <d16d4fc7-19fb-40f1...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Very interesting repertoire! I'll have to listen to other
>interpretations...

Well, you don't like Barbara Thornton either.... The most substantial
program is that by Ligeriana on Calliope, but it's on the "ethereal"
side.... Nothing really since then (2008).

[Mandryka]

I think it's wrong to say that Lamandier has a "conservatory voice" in the toile songs -- unless the conservatory is Schola Cantorum Basiliensis. Just listen to her sing Belle Doette and contrast with Sequentia, which also is not "conservatory" in an inappropriate way IMO. I think there's a lot of interest in both in fact.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <4c820467-d16f-4520...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think it's wrong to say that Lamandier has a "conservatory voice"

>....

Right, she evokes folk singing too. It's more that medieval tuning
etc. was barely even a thing at the time.

(And Bele Doette & Bele Yolanz were always the two most striking
tracks on Sequentia's classic _Trouveres_ set for me....)

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 7:40:54 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:

I've just realised who you may like -- I can't stand it but you may like it. Gerard Zuchetto and the Troubadours Art Ensemble. You couldn't get more rooted in the ethnomusicology of Occitan culture.

[Alan Cooper]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 2:39:27 PM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:

> I've enjoyed his videos and his Profeti Della Quinta recordings. He has a wonderful speaking and singing voice. Doesn't seem to engage much with properly medieval music, though.

I'm a big fan of Profeti della Quinta, specifically of their Salamone Rossi recordings (and video). The countertenor Doron Schleifer is the son of an old friend, Cantor Eli Schleifer, longtime director (now retired) of the School of Sacred Music at Hebrew Union College in Jerusalem. A wonderful person as well as a distinguished scholar and teacher.

AC

[cheregi]

I guess I am exceptionally picky...

[cheregi]

I think you're right, I've started using 'conservatory' way more broadly than what that word actually means.

[cheregi]

Oh man, finally some singing with serious portamento! And not even in a generically-applied pseudo-middle-eastern way but actually seemingly calibrated to specific textual moments! There is something grating about the over-the-top 'performance'-ness, but in a way that I'm exciting to sink my teeth into (maybe this whole venture is just musical masochism? exoticism?)... Is this also what you can't stand about it? Also, can't find much information online, is there more to know about the ensemble besides 'they have a connection to ethnomusicology of Occitan culture'?

Also, went back to one of your heroes, Rene Zosso, who I saw has collaborated with Micrologus, I'm glad I did because I've warmed up to him a lot, really gorgeous voice and of course singing over drone is a winning combo. I wonder what Rebecca Stewart thinks of him, with dhrupad as her primary inspiration, he's not far from that in spirit I think...

[cheregi]

Oh, that's incredible! I am completely in awe of what Doron Schleifer does with his voice on the 2019 CD, of madrigals by various composers, I could easily listen to a recording of early monodies or something like that from him. I wish they'd do another Rossi recording just because I feel like their approach has changed quite a bit in the decade since.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <47b933a2-b501-409c...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I guess I am exceptionally picky...

I'm actually trying to appreciate your different perspective in
coming to these recordings now.... I feel as though I spent decades
being equivocal about interpretations, trying to pick out the
developments I liked.... And as you might imagine, any notion of
"perfection" has been incredibly distant. But by the same token,
these older recordings remain part of both the history of musical
rediscovery in general & my own personal history with the music,
and it's not always easy to get "under" my own perspective either.

[Mandryka]

I don't know if Zosso's concept of modal singing has anything to do with Stewart's. I have a video of some lessons he gave -- but you'd have to be more a singer than I am to get something out of them. Zosso figures often in Clemencic's recordings -- Clemencic's Troubadours CDs are very good I think.

Zuchetto's recordings with the Troubadours Art Ensemble make me think of the sort of music you hear in a brothel in Istanbul. I like the earlier recordings more. He's friendly, he writes English, I'm sure he'd welcome a dialogue with someone who's interested. Troubadour music is very alive in France -- go to any street market in PACA on a Saturday in Summer and you'll probably find a bunch of singers doing medieval stuff.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <f4935262-06b1-4b1f...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder what Rebecca Stewart thinks of him, with dhrupad as her

>primary inspiration, ....

The dhrupad comment is interesting. Dhrupad can involve intricate
rhythms, strongly declaimed. Stewart seemingly never does such a
thing.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <79a4a869-1cfb-4c0c...@googlegroups.com>,
Alan Cooper <cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>... Suzanne Haik-Vantoura's reconstructions of ancient biblical

>cantillation--one CD apiece devoted to Psalms and Song of Songs
>respectively. Prime crackpot stuff.

Leaving aside Haik-Vantoura's musical ideas, particularly since you
don't use the term, I wonder what you think of biblical chironomy.
Was it a common practice?

[Alan Cooper]

Commonly practiced in antiquity, and still encountered in some Jewish communities of mizrahi ("oriental") origin. See https://www.chantingthehebrewbible.com/watch, and see the video on the top right. In the video, of regrettably poor technical quality, a man named Moshe Levi describes the way he was educated in the art of biblical cantillation through the use of cheironomy. After the autobiographical intro, he demonstrates the gestures that accompany each of the musical tropes, naming each one as he gestures. Being of Eastern European origin, I was never taught how to do this.

AC

[cheregi]

One of Benjamin Bagby's articles on the Sequentia page imagined future musicians engaging in 'HIP-HIP', recreating specifically, say, 'medieval music as performed in the 1980s in England', an idea which I found sort of poignant, a reminder of the present-ness of the enterprise, the tininess of this historical moment, the degree to which underneath the intellectual project it's about people wanting to create and hear music they enjoy... a few days later I discovered that HIP-HIP already exists - http://www.arcimboldo.ch/ensemble-english/cds.htm

We do live in strange times.

[cheregi]

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 1:19:58 PM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> Zuchetto's recordings with the Troubadours Art Ensemble make me think of the sort of music you hear in a brothel in Istanbul. I like the earlier recordings more. He's friendly, he writes English, I'm sure he'd welcome a dialogue with someone who's interested. Troubadour music is very alive in France -- go to any street market in PACA on a Saturday in Summer and you'll probably find a bunch of singers doing medieval stuff.

I may just contact him...

You mean like singers doing 'reenactment' type medieval stuff? I didn't know it was so widespread as opposed to how niche it seems in the US... I wonder how that tradition has itself evolved over time too...

[Mandryka]

If you're interested in the idea of HIP, maybe see what you think of the Kuijken/Schmelzer correspondence.

https://graindelavoix.be/pdfs/musica%20antiqua%20revisited%20english.pdf

[cheregi]

In an exchange of emails with Stewart, I sent her a link to this article rigorously explaining what dhrupad singers are actually doing in contrast to khyal etc., which completely blew me away at the time and which seemed relevant to how she wrote about overtones and harmony and mode: https://sama66.github.io/q3/articles/2016/05/01/fundamental-concepts-of-dhrupad/

It turned out she knew personally the guy who had written the article, and it was her sustained and formally ethnomusicological research into dhrupad in the 1970s which opened up to her the full range of possible vocal techniques which became the core of her 'modal singing' idea.

As far as I understand, a dhrupad singer makes use of the tanpura's overtone-oscillation between the 5th and the octave as a kind of rhythmic (aside from harmonic/melodic, of course) grounding, at least until the last portion of the performance which I think is what you're referring to. A group singing Josquin in a church, in contrast, per Stewart, should together 'become' a tanpura, as everyone's mingling overtones produce the same oscillation between 5th and octave, aside from or 'behind' the polyphony. Therefore, per Stewart, groups not using her techniques are actually artificially 'adding in' an extra rhythmic sensibility which only obscures the 'real' or intended rhythmic sense of the music.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <10de37d6-d872-4e5a...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>You mean like singers doing 'reenactment' type medieval stuff? I
>didn't know it was so widespread as opposed to how niche it seems
>in the US... I wonder how that tradition has itself evolved over
>time too...

In the US, bringing "authentic" music to such reenactments is
relatively recent -- and I doubt nearly ubiquitous. Mostly it'd
been about playing music that sounded to people (both participants
& audience) like medieval music "ought" to sound. (Orff is a good
example of this in general, but not for this setting. Similarly,
it was generally music in modern styles.) But over time, many of
the "craftspeople" in that scene tend to look into more of a
historical reality.... I mean, they tended to resent any discussion
of "authenticity" too, so I largely stay out of it. But I think
some of it does seep in....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <0210a68f-c007-434b...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>As far as I understand, a dhrupad singer makes use of the tanpura's
>overtone-oscillation between the 5th and the octave as a kind of
>rhythmic (aside from harmonic/melodic, of course) grounding, at
>least until the last portion of the performance which I think is
>what you're referring to.

Stewart's style may get as far as the jor, but not even jhala, which
is still without formal rhythm. And then the "last portion," i.e.
the composition(!), yes, it's set in rhythm (to a specific tala).

In other words, if I'm not being clear, obviously it is possible
to sing these things in dhrupad vocal style.

>Therefore, per Stewart, groups not using her techniques are actually
>artificially 'adding in' an extra rhythmic sensibility which only
>obscures the 'real' or intended rhythmic sense of the music.

Well, I don't think Josquin et al. wrote all those dazzling rhythmic
passages intending them to be placidly hummed. Stewart will have
to be considerably more convincing when it comes to omitting various
rhythmic contours. (I can't really even take this argument seriously.)
But I do like her ideas on vocal tone per se.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <si2r9g$pa4$2...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>Stewart's style may get as far as the jor, but not even jhala, which
>is still without formal rhythm. And then the "last portion," i.e.
>the composition(!), yes, it's set in rhythm (to a specific tala).

Perhaps I should add that in auditioning the new Missa Mater patris
yesterday -- which is when it dropped at the label's own site --
the thought did occur that Stewart might retain a smooth style in
early movements, and let the rhythms build for the Agnus Dei...
sort of the way dhrupad operates. After all, I was suddenly thinking,
Josquin's masses do usually involve rhythmic intensification toward
the close... so it might make sense! But no, this doesn't happen.

(I particularly enjoyed the homage to Obrecht on first hearing, though.
That isn't recorded very often.)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <si2r9g$pa4$2...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>In other words, if I'm not being clear, obviously it is possible
>to sing these things in dhrupad vocal style.

And perhaps I should elaborate this remark too. Part of Stewart's
argument on "modal singing" (a term of her own devising, afaict)
is that modern breath support came into use for more virtuosic
music, i.e. her argument becoming something of a variant on the old
arguments leveled against *any* attempt at historical (or various...)
singing, namely that Western operatic singing style is required to
protect & preserve the voice in more challenging music. (This was
once a very regular argument, if you haven't heard it more recently....)
Ethnomusicology set out to disprove some of this nonsense, or at
least I did (using ethnomusicology), and Indian music (including
dhrupad) is one obvious counterexample. I mean, I've listened to
Sudha Ragunathan belt out to a full auditorium for four hours with
barely a pause... Carnatic music is not "damaging her voice." But
then, wait, Stewart is both citing dhrupad (with its own quite
virtuoso passages) & saying you can't sing these complicated lines
(taranas anyone?) because it's hard on the voice? No.

What it does involve is a different sort of blending, *that* I
agree....

[cheregi]

I think what's mainly happening here is that I'm transmitting an argument which I myself don't fully understand and don't have access to in a complete form (and don't even know if I myself buy!). One thing I can say with confidence is that even though Stewart has that sort of 'spiritual' orientation, there doesn't seem to be any 'woo-woo', any lack of rigor to her defense of her ideas in terms of documented historical evidence, comparative musicology, etc.

I think the specific dhrupad she studied was Dagar dhrupad, which as I understand has quite recently (within the 20th century?) gone in a direction of emphasizing the alap to an extreme, at the expense of the more rhythmic stuff. But I don't know how or if that interacts with what you wrote.

As for your later response - actually I hadn't yet run into that argument about the supposed necessity of Western-style breath support, it's of course infuriating though not surprising to imagine that that was 'common knowledge' until so recently, and disproving it strikes me as a really worthwhile endeavor...

Regardless, though, I don't think Stewart is falling into that trap, I don't think she's saying anything about what is or isn't necessarily hard on the voice in terms of long-term health. What I do think she's saying (alongside Sankrityayan in the article) is that there is a tradeoff between dhrupad's chant-derived nuance of control over overtone production, etc., and khyal's virtuosic runs, that, sure, dhrupad gets pretty virtuosic, but you reach a limit with dhrupad in terms of sheer speed where you have to start shedding certain core aspects of dhrupad voice production, and the music loses its original meditative/spiritually-oriented function, and also ragas begin to blend together to a certain extent (here I am just going off Sankrityayan). And then I think maybe there's seen to be some musicians calling their music 'dhrupad' who aren't actually doing all this complicated old-style voice production stuff, but rather more in a modern/khyal style, so they do indeed perform something that can be called 'dhrupad as virtuosic as khyal', but that's not what I'm talking about, our language for this is just limited.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <79792878-6b26-4522...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
[ Stewart doesn't lack rigor ]

I think that Stewart has contributed in very worthwhile ways. I
don't agree with all of her ideas, but it's good that she's out
there.

>I think the specific dhrupad she studied was Dagar dhrupad, which
>as I understand has quite recently (within the 20th century?) gone
>in a direction of emphasizing the alap to an extreme, at the expense
>of the more rhythmic stuff. But I don't know how or if that interacts
>with what you wrote.

Yes, Dagarvani has emphasized alap much more, but then paradoxically,
their alap becomes more virtuosic, so.... (But per your later
comments, I also don't mean to suggest that they have compromised
on vocal quality/technique. They are very serious in this regard,
but the voice *is* nimble, or able to be....)

But what is dhrupad? OK, so proto-Sanskrit, you can read it as
"true foot" or as sometimes given "the literal rendering of verse
into music" but first of all, it is the *verse* not the introduction
for which the form is named. And this is significant to any reading
I have of this correspondence, because in the Western music, we are
talking about compositions, verses with words. Alap, the introduction,
is done on particular "nonsense" syllables, drawn out to establish
the raga (mode) itself... hence "modal singing" I suppose. But it
is not the "verse" of dhrupad!

>What I do think she's saying (alongside Sankrityayan in the article)
>is that there is a tradeoff between dhrupad's chant-derived nuance
>of control over overtone production, etc., and khyal's virtuosic
>runs, that, sure, dhrupad gets pretty virtuosic, but you reach a
>limit with dhrupad in terms of sheer speed where you have to start
>shedding certain core aspects of dhrupad voice production, and the
>music loses its original meditative/spiritually-oriented function,
>and also ragas begin to blend together to a certain extent (here I
>am just going off Sankrityayan).

In a very broad way, I do agree with Stewart on this parallel. And
I think that hearing the Josquin era as a sort of transition in
vocal production technique increasingly makes sense.... Where I
don't agree, however, is where she draws the line.

(As a thought experiment on this "line," I believe you mentioned
appreciating the new Complete Zacara set. What does one of his
Glorias sound like in a Stewart style? Music 100 years prior....)

Now, is this supposed to be a case where singers in her style later
tackle these passages (e.g. in Josquin) with more rhythm? Well
maybe, so I don't feel dismissive, but if there's an argument
developing that that isn't appropriate, then I can't accept it.
(Actually, the Japanese group involves more rhythmic contour than
does Stewart herself.) And moreover, I think that "L'ultima parola"
already put out a fantastic _Missa Prolationum_ so I'm having less
to rely on my own imagination for examples. :-)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <si2vgk$sej$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>Alap, the introduction, is done on particular "nonsense" syllables,
>drawn out to establish the raga (mode) itself... hence "modal
>singing" I suppose. But it is not the "verse" of dhrupad!

And given this, it might be worth noting that it is khayal "verses"
that are often nonsense... more for "effect."

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <si2rkn$puc$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>I particularly enjoyed the homage to Obrecht on first hearing, though.

The concluding track, the "maybe Willaert" piece on the same text(s),
is also striking. (Apropos some recent Willaert attention
elsewhere....)

[cheregi]

Still making my way through this but thanks for sending, great read, as always when Schmelzer is involved. In the meantime, pulling out a thread relevant to the rest of this discussion:

"In the field of medieval music – perhaps my preferential area of exper-
tise – I have always admired the inventors/climatologists who make
new worlds visible, or rather: audible in the world that is apparently so
well-known. To mention only four of them: Pedro Memelsdorff, because
he introduced faster tempi, retardations and Lucretian dynamics into a
repertoire that until then looked cerebral and unplayable; Paul van Nevel,
because he turned polyphony into a landscape, opening unheard vocal
vistas and sound perspectives; Rebecca Stewart, because she invented
elasticity and the micro-movement, providing polyphony with a hitherto
unknown internal suppleness and an impulse (or “impetus”, as they said
in the Middle Ages); Marcel Pérès, because he introduced the vocality of
timbred voices and injected a non-subjective emotionality and pathos into
the repertoires."

[cheregi]

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 4:58:00 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Yes, Dagarvani has emphasized alap much more, but then paradoxically,
> their alap becomes more virtuosic, so.... (But per your later
> comments, I also don't mean to suggest that they have compromised
> on vocal quality/technique. They are very serious in this regard,
> but the voice *is* nimble, or able to be....)

Good point, and then separately I want to know more about the purported origins of dhrupad as private temple meditation non-virtuosic non-music, which origin seems key to Stewart's understanding...

> But what is dhrupad? OK, so proto-Sanskrit, you can read it as
> "true foot" or as sometimes given "the literal rendering of verse
> into music" but first of all, it is the *verse* not the introduction
> for which the form is named. And this is significant to any reading
> I have of this correspondence, because in the Western music, we are
> talking about compositions, verses with words. Alap, the introduction,
> is done on particular "nonsense" syllables, drawn out to establish
> the raga (mode) itself... hence "modal singing" I suppose. But it
> is not the "verse" of dhrupad!

I didn't know the meaning of the name, and the totally direct way in which alap can therefore be understood 'not to be' dhrupad, or not to be 'the dhrupad of dhrupad'... !

> (As a thought experiment on this "line," I believe you mentioned
> appreciating the new Complete Zacara set. What does one of his
> Glorias sound like in a Stewart style? Music 100 years prior....)

Stewart's Dufay recording, the early mass and an old-style multi-texted motet, actually does prove to be one of my least favorite applications of her ideas, because here it does end up feeling, to me, like 'the music itself' demands/expects more 'concrete' rhythmic dimension, which of course does sort of conflict with the idea of Stewart as 'constructing a model of polyphony based firmly on a viable model of earlier or monophonic repertoire'... so that sort of pushes me to regard the whole project as kind of 'science-fictional' world-building past-creating, creating a very specific past which exists only refracted via the present (or, the more recent past)... on the other hand Stewart's (2002) Machaut mass is maybe the most rhetorically-rhythmically grounded of anything she's been involved with, though recorded around the same time as the Dufay (but with different singers), so I'm curious as to her motivations in those decisions

It's hard to imagine Zacara sounding 'good' or 'plausible' under any variant of a Stewartian approach, but then she does connect pretty firmly her modal singing idea to the nasal-ness and specific rhythms of French dialects, and for example explicitly performs the Lupus Hellinck mass somewhat differently as a result (though that's also 1993 so the whole idea hadn't quite come together yet anyway). I think here we find maybe a point of connection between Micrologus and Stewart, not just that they are both doing the 'ethnomusicology' thing but that, then, the conclusions they come to both revolve around 'maximizing perception of overtones', Micrologus via the very forward style common to polyphonic-folk-singing traditions almost everywhere and Stewart of course in the seemingly-opposite direction, and we can imagine that people singing in churches in medieval Europe had many different strategies for producing clear overtones but that this emphasis in the first place was common between language/dialect-areas...

> Now, is this supposed to be a case where singers in her style later
> tackle these passages (e.g. in Josquin) with more rhythm? Well
> maybe, so I don't feel dismissive, but if there's an argument
> developing that that isn't appropriate, then I can't accept it.
> (Actually, the Japanese group involves more rhythmic contour than
> does Stewart herself.) And moreover, I think that "L'ultima parola"
> already put out a fantastic _Missa Prolationum_ so I'm having less
> to rely on my own imagination for examples. :-)

I wish we had Stewart here to address the rhythm question!! Our email exchange petered out around the time I think she was very busy recording the new record, I may try to contact her again.

I too am really excited about L'Ultima Parola and whatever they do next.

As for the maybe-Willaert piece you mention - I don't know if you saw the lengthy cantusmodalis.org article about the new recording, part of it from Josquin's first-person point of view... apparently only four of the piece's seven voices are preserved, the rest being reconstructed for the recording...

One more thought, sort of tangential but I am curious if you have thoughts on this - Stewart seems to align with McClary in describing the modal-to-tonal transition as introducing a new kind of climax-oriented conclusion-oriented forward pull, right, and then this being connected to modernity as a mindset and capitalism etc. etc., right, and I have found myself strongly drawn towards musics which don't present 'progress' or 'tension-building', but actually that's something I've found hard to appreciate about dhrupad, that the bulk of a dhrupad performance is in such a bare way a gradual ratcheting up of tension in anticipation of a big climax and release... I imagine there must be some elaborate way of 'explaining away' how this is 'actually' a different procedure entirely, among those who wish to cite dhrupad as a kind of 'antidote' to a more 'khyal' mindset...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <62f4f092-ff34-4dd2...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"In the field of medieval music – perhaps my preferential area of exper-
>tise – I have always admired the inventors/climatologists who make
>new worlds visible, or rather: audible in the world that is apparently so
>well-known. To mention only four of them: Pedro Memelsdorff, because
>he introduced faster tempi, retardations and Lucretian dynamics into a
>repertoire that until then looked cerebral and unplayable; Paul van Nevel,
>because he turned polyphony into a landscape, opening unheard vocal
>vistas and sound perspectives; Rebecca Stewart, because she invented
>elasticity and the micro-movement, providing polyphony with a hitherto
>unknown internal suppleness and an impulse (or “impetus”, as they said
>in the Middle Ages); Marcel Pérès, because he introduced the vocality of
>timbred voices and injected a non-subjective emotionality and pathos into
>the repertoires."

I was trying to figure out what he meant by turning polyphony into
a landscape.... But, I guess, judging by the respective recordings,
that he likes the way that Van Nevel orchestrates. With that(?),
one can certainly hear all of these influences in Graindelavoix --
although I still wouldn't really characterize Huelgas Ensemble as
"changing the sound" of medieval music.

I would add, though, that while Memelsdorff's recordings certainly
did raise a fuss, Kees Boeke -- who was on all these (except one
as I recall?) -- had recorded Ars Subtilior before, and went on to
make some of the (still) best albums after.... Those were always
co-Boeke/Memelsdorff albums.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <b2585da2-c2cb-4b64...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I want to know more about the purported origins of dhrupad as

>private temple meditation non-virtuosic non-music ....

I don't know if such an early history will ever really be recovered,
although there are stories.

>... she does connect pretty firmly her modal singing idea to the
>nasal-ness and specific rhythms of French dialects, ....

I think this part is increasingly consensus... although that doesn't
mean that anyone can wave a magic wand & create the perfect singer
on demand.

>I wish we had Stewart here to address the rhythm question!!

That would be welcome, of course, but I also think that she's
addressing the part of the music she wants to address.... That it
becomes a sort of "fiction" is fine. I just try to sort through
what is what.

>As for the maybe-Willaert piece you mention - I don't know if you
>saw the lengthy cantusmodalis.org article about the new recording,
>part of it from Josquin's first-person point of view... apparently
>only four of the piece's seven voices are preserved, the rest being
>reconstructed for the recording...

Those are the included liner notes. A little too "cute" as
autobiography, but hey... creativity right?

But yes, I guess that's why I didn't know the piece. Willaert is
still something of a mystery, although I think I've auditioned every
Willaert album....

>I have found myself strongly drawn towards musics which don't

>present 'progress' or 'tension-building', ....

I hear you, but that's not only not dhrupad, it's not Josquin either!
And no, I don't think that's explained away in dhrupad. Both mode
& then rhythm are built up gradually in the stages of alap. That's
a "progress" mindset to performance, no way around it -- at least
until the text itself appears.

[Mandryka]

John Potter is the elephant in the room here - for making new worlds visible. I’m thinking of things like the Léonin, the Scottish mass and the conductus CDs. Not so keen on Memelsdorff myself (too fast, so everything sounds the same.) Boeke did some interesting things with Tetraktys- showed that the music is sensual, carnal. It’s just that I’m enjoying what they did less and less, for some reason - probably my mood more than anything else!

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <b2585da2-c2cb-4b64...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I imagine there must be some elaborate way of 'explaining away'
>how this is 'actually' a different procedure entirely, among those
>who wish to cite dhrupad as a kind of 'antidote' to a more 'khyal'
>mindset...

Perhaps I should add some thoughts on (a)symmetries between the
Western early modern transition and the dhrupad->khayal transition....

First of all, the West was in the process of imposing itself on
India, and not the other way around. If we're talking about the
world-historical implications of the shift to tonality, then these
situations are absolutely asymmetric. From that perspective, one
can then actually ponder khayal as a falling away of traditional
structure. In contrast, early modern Western forms involved
imposition of additional structure. (This should track.) In both
cases, though, more demands are put onto the individual (singer)
-- & that is where the symmetry returns.

[cheregi]

Schmelzer always seems to delight in provocation... I read his inclusion of van Nevel in that list through that light, like, of course no one's surprised he cites those other three, but someone as normal as van Nevel? And then Schmelzer grinning at our surprise...

That letter exchange left me feeling strongly aligned with Schmelzer, almost in a kind of 'generational-conflict' way which I don't normally identify with... I don't dislike Kuijken's music, but as a writer and thinker he comes off as surprisingly narrow-minded and sort of a bore, Schmelzer runs circles around him (the paradox of 'the past is so foreign'/'they were just like us!' feelings in early music performance as a way out of cul de sac of modernist criticality, etc.), but of course Schmelzer arrives years later at a time of relative financial precarity and in a wildly conservative cultural climate, and even with his incredible industriousness and talent for self-promotion still apparently relies on financial support from his girlfriend for a decade...

[cheregi]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 4:50:22 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:

> Those are the included liner notes. A little too "cute" as
> autobiography, but hey... creativity right?

My feeling exactly...

> But yes, I guess that's why I didn't know the piece. Willaert is
> still something of a mystery, although I think I've auditioned every
> Willaert album....

I might have mentioned it in this group, but it was Singer Pur's Musica Nova that sold me on Willaert. I was listening to that recording around the same time I was listening to Grete Sultan's recording of Cage's Etudes Australes, and there seemed to be a lot of overlap there in terms of overall effect, even if arrived at in totally divergent ways: (almost) total rejection of macro-level structure/differentiation, 'drama' in the sense of textural contrast, and instead hyperfocus on total moment-to-moment non-repetitiveness - music which in no way demands, but does reward, very closely attentive listening... also just finished Martha Feldman's book on Venetian madrigals, connecting Willaert's idiom to Venetian-republican/neo-Ciceronian ideals of decorum, balance, modesty, etc.

> I hear you, but that's not only not dhrupad, it's not Josquin either!
> And no, I don't think that's explained away in dhrupad. Both mode
> & then rhythm are built up gradually in the stages of alap. That's
> a "progress" mindset to performance, no way around it -- at least
> until the text itself appears.

Is it fair to say that Josquin tends to be more about 'local maxima' of intensity/buildup-of-pressure, to a greater degree than his predecessors (i.e. moving towards tonality), but still without 'overarching' schema? That has been my impression...

[cheregi]

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 4:47:58 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
one can then actually ponder khayal as a falling away of traditional
> structure. In contrast, early modern Western forms involved
> imposition of additional structure

Oh this is a very interesting idea, it feels like there is a lot to be teased out from this. I don't know the history of the British relationship to Indian classical arts - I'd assumed it was something like the Dutch in Java, where the royal courts lose all political power but then invest even more heavily into arts and culture, propped up as a kind of symbol of colonial authority, and so at least the court-style gamelan doesn't experience an obvious rupture in tradition - but what about more subtle or long-term impacts...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <6d376506-4e43-4a0d...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is it fair to say that Josquin tends to be more about 'local maxima'
>of intensity/buildup-of-pressure, to a greater degree than his
>predecessors (i.e. moving towards tonality), but still without
>'overarching' schema?

Maybe so, but "local maxima" is something many composers of the era
seemed to enjoy....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <83af8018-6e51-41b9...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I don't know the history of the British relationship to Indian
>classical arts - I'd assumed it was something like the Dutch in
>Java, where the royal courts lose all political power but then
>invest even more heavily into arts and culture, propped up as a
>kind of symbol of colonial authority, and so at least the court-style
>gamelan doesn't experience an obvious rupture in tradition -

Yes, but... the musicians were listening. Indian music went through
big changes in the period, although forms like khayal & the kriti
are still very Indian. Well, "even" Muttuswamy Dikshitar wrote his
"English Notes" on Western tunes (c.1800)... and it's certainly
said he was inspired by Bach. But the music sounds very Indian.

[Mandryka]

Started to enjoy Clemencic’s Binchois, I may have to revisit his Dufay. It’s good to have these composers treated in such an un-Josquin like way.

[Mandryka]

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 3:45:44 AM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Started to enjoy Clemencic’s Binchois, I may have to revisit his Dufay. It’s good to have these composers treated in such an un-Josquin like way.

What I mean is, in the Clemencic there’s never any solemnity or reverence.

[cheregi]

Bach! Among the canonical greats probably the least intuitively reconcilable with Indian classical forms!

[cheregi]

Do you think the new Graindelavoix treats Josquin with solemnity and/or reverence? I think I could go either way on that.

[Mandryka]

If you like Deslignes be sure to check the new one from Corina Marti, called Keynotes.

[Mandryka]

Do you think that the recordings Metamorphoses made with Biscantor are solemn and reverent? I’m enjoying them very much at the moment.