Beethoven's 5th: first recording - Gramophone drops a boo-boo

[Kerrison]

Hands up all those who know who made the first recording of the Beethoven 5th. According to Richard Osborne, surveying 100 years of Berlin Philharmonic recordings in the current 'Gramophone' it was Nikisch and the BPO in 1913.

Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was actually Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole work first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has been on You Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the Wiki article on the LvB 5th.

Here's a review of one of the CD releases of the Kark set ...

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/May10/beethoven_HRCD0001.htm

Here's its You Tube upload, complete with first movement repeat ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqybFAGGcs

And here's the later Nikisch set without it ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY1s6y6r5M

I wonder if anyone will email the 'Gramophone' Editor to put him right as to the facts of the case?

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 03.09.2013 17:23, Kerrison wrote:
> Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was actually
> Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole work
> first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has been on
> You Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the Wiki
> article on the LvB 5th.

These things take some incredible time. Some people still believe that
the Haas editions of Bruckner's symphonies are the way he would have
wanted to have them ...
--
Lionel Tacchini
"Ach, Du lieber Augustin, alles ist hin ..."

[Bob Harper]

On 9/3/13 8:30 AM, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 03.09.2013 17:23, Kerrison wrote:
>> Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was actually
>> Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole work
>> first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has been on
>> You Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the Wiki
>> article on the LvB 5th.
>
> These things take some incredible time. Some people still believe that
> the Haas editions of Bruckner's symphonies are the way he would have
> wanted to have them ...

Of the 8th, certainly. :)

Bob Harper

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Kerrison <kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:c91b0417-ec8d-4239...@googlegroups.com:

> Hands up all those who know who made the first recording of the Beethoven
> 5th. According to Richard Osborne, surveying 100 years of Berlin
> Philharmonic recordings in the current 'Gramophone' it was Nikisch and
> the BPO in 1913.
>
> Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was actually
> Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole work
> first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has been on You
> Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the Wiki article on
> the LvB 5th.

Because it is in their financial interest to pimp on behalf of the Berliner
Philharmoniker, and the companies for which that orchestra records? After
all, the Odeon String Orchestra isn't writing checks any more.

> Here's a review of one of the CD releases of the Kark set ...
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/May10/beethoven_HRCD0
> 001.htm
>
> Here's its You Tube upload, complete with first movement repeat ...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqybFAGGcs
>
> And here's the later Nikisch set without it ...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY1s6y6r5M
>
> I wonder if anyone will email the 'Gramophone' Editor to put him right
> as to the facts of the case?

Why waste the effort? They won't print it.

Please note that I predicted three years ago that the lie would be repeated
once again:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/Kark1910

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 07.09.2013 08:59, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>> Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was
>> actually
>>> Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole
>>> work first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has
>>> been on You Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the
>>> Wiki article on the LvB 5th.
> Because it is in their financial interest to pimp on behalf of the
> Berliner Philharmoniker, and the companies for which that orchestra
> records? After all, the Odeon String Orchestra isn't writing checks
> any more.
>

They just don't know about Kark.
The wish that some all-knowing entity in a place of authority exists is
widely spread but not likely to be fulfilled any time.

[Steve de Mena]

On 9/3/13 8:23 AM, Kerrison wrote:
> Hands up all those who know who made the first recording of the Beethoven 5th. According to Richard Osborne, surveying 100 years of Berlin Philharmonic recordings in the current 'Gramophone' it was Nikisch and the BPO in 1913.

Do you have a link to the Osborne article? I like to read these things
first hand when possible.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

On 9/6/13 11:59 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Kerrison <kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:c91b0417-ec8d-4239...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> Hands up all those who know who made the first recording of the Beethoven
>> 5th. According to Richard Osborne, surveying 100 years of Berlin
>> Philharmonic recordings in the current 'Gramophone' it was Nikisch and
>> the BPO in 1913.
>>
>> Quite why he, or the magazine's experts, didn't know it was actually
>> Friedrich Kark who, three years earlier, had recorded the whole work
>> first is puzzling, since it has been issued twice on CD, has been on You
>> Tube for over a year, and is confirmed as such in the Wiki article on
>> the LvB 5th.
>
> Because it is in their financial interest to pimp on behalf of the Berliner
> Philharmoniker, and the companies for which that orchestra records?

Gramophone UK has zero financial interest in stating who did or did
not make the first recording of Beethoven's 5th. I'd like to know if
Osborne cited the Nikisch recording as DG's first complete symphony
recording, not the first from any company, DG themselves, on their
web site, identify it as such:

"In 1913, Deutsche Grammophon causes a sensation with its first
complete recording of an orchestral work: Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony,
with the Berliner Philharmoniker under its principal conductor Arthur
Nikisch, is released on four double-sided discs, for Mark 9.50 (then
equivalent to about $2.25 / 1,70 €) per disc; in Britain it is issued
on single-sided discs over several months. "

Steve

[Kerrison]

I don't have a link to Osborne's BPO survey piece, unless it's on-line somewhere, but here is his opening para from page 33 of the September issue:

"The Gramophone Company's celebrated 'chief recorder' Fred Gaisberg first heard Arthur Nikisch in concert with the London Symphony Orchestra in 1912. Gaisberg had masterminded the Caruso sessions in Milan in 1902, which had been the making of the gramophone artistically and commercially. Undeterred by the need to huddle a reduced 40-piece band in front of an acoustic horn, he recorded Beethoven's 'Egmont' Overture with Nikisch and the LSO in Hayes in June 1913. He must have been pleased with the results. That November, in collaboration with the company's German cousin Deutsche Grammophon, he oversaw the first ever complete recording of a symphony, Beethoven's Fifth, with Nikisch and the Berlin Philharmonic."

Osborne goes on to discuss the BPO's history but makes no further reference to the Nikisch LvB 5th. It would seem that he simply copied what DG themselves had said and took them at their word!

[td]

The trxt is accurate. The claim is that this was "the first". An extension of DG's first, which was probably how it started.

Frankly, this is a silly quibble, I think. Moreover, it was a "shortened version" according to the 78 RPM historical nerds who form the basis of information on the subject. So, first abbreviated recording of Beethoven 5? If one is accurate, at least?

Anyway, silly discussion.

TD

[Kerrison]

What is silly is your incomprehensible response. Firstly, what is a "trxt" when it's at home? The next two sentences don't make any sense at all, as in "an extension of DG's first." First what? And since we are talking about two recordings (Kark's and Nikisch's) which of them is the "shortened version"? Both can be heard on You Tube, where both can readily be checked for cuts, or haven't you heard of You Tube? And who are these "nerds" anyway? Maybe you can name a site where any of them says it (ie: which one, Kark's or Nikisch's?) is "abbreviated", as against all those who say both versions are complete? Finally, this "discussion" only became "silly" the moment you stuck your oar in with your unnecessary and unhelpful contribution.

[td]

Dg's first recording of Beethoven 5.
Trxt is text. Guess that was above your pay grade, twit.

1. I don't listen to music on YouTube, if I can help it.

2. Nerd? All those 78 RPM zombies.

3. Check the 78 RPM site you cite for "abbreviated" or "shortened".

4. Finally, take the pickle out of your ass and deal with real musical issues, not quotes about recording dates in a Gramophone article by someone who forgot more than you will ever know.

5. Get a life!

TD

[richard...@gmail.com]

Surely you jest! This correspondence, as well as all other internet correspondence, is securely in an NSA database. The all knowing all seeing entity is here allright. It just keeps its knowledge to itself.

[Bill Anderson]

Hello Kerrison -

In addition to the Kark recording, there was the François Ruhlmann, the long time house conductor for Pathé. He also made an early recording of the Fifth, which 'may' have preceded the Nikisch/ BPO sides.

Claude Arnold's book on has the recording date of the Ruhlmann as 1916. However, a collector noted that his copies of the Ruhlmann were different, having an earlier numbering series than that noted in Arnold's publication. He suggested that Arnold reference may be a reissue or dubbing from an earlier issue. This collector, familiar with Pathé issues, suggested that the date may have been as early as 1912.

- Bill

[Steve de Mena]

On 9/7/13 5:12 AM, Kerrison wrote:
> That November, in collaboration with the company's German cousin Deutsche Grammophon, he oversaw the first ever complete recording of a symphony, Beethoven's Fifth, with Nikisch and the Berlin Philharmonic."
>
> Osborne goes on to discuss the BPO's history but makes no further reference to the Nikisch LvB 5th. It would seem that he simply copied what DG themselves had said and took them at their word!
>

DG says they made THEIR first recording of a complete symphony with
Nikisch. Not the first of any company,

Steve

[td]

This simple fact has escaped not only the OP but all the other crazed 78 RPM nerds here, each one presenting ever more specious claims about this or that purported recording made in a closet in Hamburg.

Whyever don't they mention in their learned discussions the old Edison recording with the inventor himself humming his way through the score? Probably because they discounted that as a bogus arrangement of Beethoven's music. The cylinders are long lost, of course, but Susie Glutz, a stenographer, (and, incidentally a reputed looker) working for the inventor in various capacities, claims to have seen the number sequence, if not the pile of cylinders themselves. What a loss that was, when you think of it. One genius interpreting the work of another genius.

Ah well. Sic transit gloria mundi, and all that jazz.

TD

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Kerrison <kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in

news:950b2157-e6c6-4f0a...@googlegroups.com:

> I don't have a link to Osborne's BPO survey piece, unless it's on-line
> somewhere, but here is his opening para from page 33 of the September
> issue:
>
> "The Gramophone Company's celebrated 'chief recorder' Fred Gaisberg first
> heard Arthur Nikisch in concert with the London Symphony Orchestra in
> 1912. Gaisberg had masterminded the Caruso sessions in Milan in 1902,
> which had been the making of the gramophone artistically and
> commercially. Undeterred by the need to huddle a reduced 40-piece band
> in front of an acoustic horn, he recorded Beethoven's 'Egmont' Overture
> with Nikisch and the LSO in Hayes in June 1913. He must have been pleased
> with the results. That November, in collaboration with the company's
> German cousin Deutsche Grammophon, he oversaw the first ever complete
> recording of a symphony, Beethoven's Fifth, with Nikisch and the Berlin
> Philharmonic."
>
> Osborne goes on to discuss the BPO's history but makes no further
> reference to the Nikisch LvB 5th. It would seem that he simply copied
> what DG themselves had said and took them at their word!

What a stoop!