Rachmaninoff Concertos

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MIFrost

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Apr 1, 2006, 9:52:28 PM4/1/06
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I watched the old British tear-jerker "Brief Encounter" on television a
couple of days ago. Been listening to Concerto #2 ever since. What are
people's favorite recordings of these four concerti? My favorite #2 (this
week, at least) seems to be Rubinstein/Reiner. Any opinions on the various
Ashkenazys (Previn and/or Fistoulari and/or Kondrashin)? Katchen/Solti?
Graffman/Bernstein? I'm referring to any and all of the concerti. Not just
#2. I suspect some of the ones I'm mentioning are OOP.

MIFrost

MIFrost

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Apr 1, 2006, 10:11:36 PM4/1/06
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"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:M%GXf.21335$Da7....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

And while I'm at it, anyone like a complete set of all four?
Wild/Horenstein?

MIFrost


Sol L. Siegel

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Apr 1, 2006, 10:32:54 PM4/1/06
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On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 02:52:28 GMT, "MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:

>What are
>people's favorite recordings of these four concerti? My favorite #2 (this
>week, at least) seems to be Rubinstein/Reiner. Any opinions on the various
>Ashkenazys (Previn and/or Fistoulari and/or Kondrashin)? Katchen/Solti?
>Graffman/Bernstein? I'm referring to any and all of the concerti. Not just
>#2. I suspect some of the ones I'm mentioning are OOP.

IIRC, we had a thread on this not too long ago.

My faves:

All 4: Orozco in stereo. (I keep meaning to play these again; it's
been too long.) Rach.'s own, of course, in mono. Alas, neither has
an uncut 3- Rach's is seriously butchered.

2: Vasary/DG, on the slow side at 36 minutes but quite beautiful. He
also does well in 1. I remember Graffman as a strong performance,
but haven't heard it on CD; it would need one heck of a remaster to
save it sonically.

3: Cliburn, which seems slow but eventually rolls over you like a
steamroller. Gutierrez is a good version that uses the more
arpeggio-like cadenza that Rach. recorded. The best Horowitz version
I've heard is the live Barbirolli/NYPSO on APR.

4: Michelangeli, but of course.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"My reputation has nothing to do with me." - Terry Gilliam
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MIFrost

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Apr 1, 2006, 11:40:53 PM4/1/06
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"Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1qgu229u95hh14r8t...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 02:52:28 GMT, "MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>What are
>>people's favorite recordings of these four concerti? My favorite #2 (this
>>week, at least) seems to be Rubinstein/Reiner. Any opinions on the various
>>Ashkenazys (Previn and/or Fistoulari and/or Kondrashin)? Katchen/Solti?
>>Graffman/Bernstein? I'm referring to any and all of the concerti. Not just
>>#2. I suspect some of the ones I'm mentioning are OOP.
>
> IIRC, we had a thread on this not too long ago.
>

Usually I check first. Let me look again. Thanks for the comments below
also.

Thomas Wood

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Apr 2, 2006, 3:34:52 AM4/2/06
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"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:M%GXf.21335$Da7....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

For #2 and the Paganini Rhapsody, I'm hopelessly imprinted on
Rubinstein/Reiner/Chicago SO/RCA. For a complete set, I like
Ashkenazy/Previn/London SO/Decca. I've read many good reviews of
Hough/Litton/Dallas SO/Hyperion, but this group doesn't approve because
Hough is neither dead nor Russian.

Tom Wood


Alex Panda

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Apr 2, 2006, 4:00:43 AM4/2/06
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"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
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Wild is very good in the Paganini Rhapsody, perhaps the best I've heard.
For the concerti I like:

#1 Janis, Zimerman, Pletnev, Andsnes
#2 Richter, Grimaud II, Berezovsky II, Andsnes
#3 Volodos, Berezovsky II, Argerich,
#4 Ashkenazy II, Michelangeli

The Berezovsky ones are on Mirare. Of recent recordings I'd recommend that
CD and the Andsnes on EMI.


wille...@hotmail.com

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Apr 2, 2006, 5:26:19 AM4/2/06
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Ashkenazy didn't play no 2 with Fistoulari, that was no 3! The 2nd
concerto with Kondrashin is glorious, not only the solo playing but
also the orchestra. Just listen to the way Kondrashin shapes the first
melody in the lower strings..... he too was an absolute master! Both
these performances from the 60's are available on a budget Ovation CD
from Decca. Very warmly recommanded!

W.

Gerard

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Apr 2, 2006, 5:37:17 AM4/2/06
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Seconded.
Decca had reissued these recordings (in this coupling) more than once. In the
Legends series e.g. Still available as far as I know.


David Wake

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Apr 2, 2006, 7:41:45 AM4/2/06
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"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> writes:

For #3, you owe it to yourself to be hear Gieseking/Mengelberg.
Completely unlike any other performance I'm familiar with, it turns
the music into a Wagnerian tragedy.

David

RX-01

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Apr 2, 2006, 12:39:15 PM4/2/06
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#1 - Ashkenazy (either Previn or Haitink), Andsnes

#2 - Zilberstein/Abbado, Richter/Wislocki, Andsnes/Pappano

#3- Volodos/Levine is simply amazing. Then Hough/Litton. Also
Argerich/Chally (even though Chailly's conducting is unimpressive and
dull).

#4 - Hough/Litton, Michelangeli

For a complete set Hough/Litton is my first choice, followed by
Wild/Horenstein (as remastered by Chandos).

RX-01

tomdeacon

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Apr 2, 2006, 12:58:16 PM4/2/06
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RX-01 wrote:
> #1 - Ashkenazy (either Previn or Haitink), Andsnes
>
> #2 - Zilberstein/Abbado, Richter/Wislocki, Andsnes/Pappano
>
> #3- Volodos/Levine is simply amazing. Then Hough/Litton. Also
> Argerich/Chally (even though Chailly's conducting is unimpressive and
> dull).
>
> #4 - Hough/Litton, Michelangeli
>
> For a complete set Hough/Litton is my first choice


You're seriously in need of some Rx.

TD

fha.jonkers

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Apr 2, 2006, 1:02:48 PM4/2/06
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David Wake schreef:

Yes, that's fun listening, never mind the clinkers. Aside of that,
Ashkenazy/Fistoulari/Kondrashin and Weissenberg/Pretre are the ones I
like best for 2 and 3.

Vinski

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Apr 3, 2006, 3:15:08 AM4/3/06
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tomdeacon wrote:

> RX-01 wrote:
>> For a complete set Hough/Litton is my first choice
>
> You're seriously in need of some Rx.

Because a pianist are coming from Australia - Land of
kangaroos and silly hats? Because orchestra are coming
from Dallas - JR's and Bobby's hometown (most in Finland
better known Dallas from old television drama)?

I have also this recording. I'm not sure is it a best, but not
so poor as you implied.

Vinski


Dan Koren

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Apr 3, 2006, 4:47:54 AM4/3/06
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"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
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Are you a licensed pharmacist?

dk


Andy Evans

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Apr 3, 2006, 5:54:13 AM4/3/06
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I listened to Rachmaninov himself playing 2 and 3 last night and was
quite surprised. I was expecting him - the great virtuoso - to
imperiously sail through these "war horses" in a flurry of notes. Far
from it - he meticulously stays out of the way of the orchestral solos,
plays with considerable grace and lightness of touch, and brings out
all manner of interesting counterpoint. It really made me feel that the
"all crashing chords" kind of grandstanding in these two concerti is
missing the point completely. Rach's own versions bring out the echoes
of Tchaikovsky but it's more the ballet scores than the 6th Symphony.

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 7:11:06 AM4/3/06
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Oh, you misunderstand me.

It is very competent.

And if you admire competence, then that may be the version for you.

But I actually want more in SR, either the composer himself, who is sui
generis, or someone who can bring his or her own genius to this music.
Competence, I am afraid, simply doesn't "cut it" for me.

TD

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 7:13:17 AM4/3/06
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I one of those Canadian mavericks you read about, selling meds for less
to impoverished Americans whose government is determined to keep the
drug companies rich and them poor.

What ails you?

I mean, apart from your deafness, that is?

TD

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 7:14:48 AM4/3/06
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Three cheers!

Someone who can hear.

TD

Vinski

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:28:21 AM4/3/06
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I agree your opinion. After I got a new audio system, this was one
of the first CD I bought. That's why I can pay attention to the sound
quality over the musical content - even nowadays.

Vinski


abac...@att.net

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Apr 3, 2006, 10:43:18 AM4/3/06
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> > You're seriously in need of some Rx.
> >
>
>
> Are you a licensed pharmacist?
>
>
>
> dk

I am....... do i get more respect now :-))))

AB

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 11:03:31 AM4/3/06
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> I am....... do i get more respect now?

The quick answer?

No!

TD

Dan Koren

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Apr 3, 2006, 3:47:16 PM4/3/06
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"Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Yes indeed.

Rachmaninov gives his own
works the prom treatment.

dk


Dan Koren

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Apr 3, 2006, 3:47:53 PM4/3/06
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"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144062796.9...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...


Allergy to mooseshit.

dk


Dan Koren

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Apr 3, 2006, 3:48:16 PM4/3/06
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<abac...@att.net> wrote in message
news:1144075398....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

>
>> > You're seriously in need of some Rx.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Are you a licensed pharmacist?
>
> I am....... do i get more respect now :-))))
>


No.

dk


Dan Koren

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Apr 3, 2006, 3:49:14 PM4/3/06
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"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1144062666.0...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

>
> Competence, I am afraid, simply doesn't "cut it" for me.
>


Duly noticed.

dk


JohnGavin

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Apr 3, 2006, 4:54:03 PM4/3/06
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Ah, yes, charm and elegance - qualities that even Richter often
lacks.........

Vaneyes

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Apr 3, 2006, 7:10:21 PM4/3/06
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Dan Koren wrote:
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >
> > What ails you?
> >
> > I mean, apart from your deafness, that is?
> >
>
>
> Allergy to mooseshit.

Can understand that...

"Newberry had been dubbed Michigan's Moose Capital."

--SouthBendTribune.com

"Moose rides shotgun in Massachusetts car."
--AP

"I wandered up Brewery Gulch (Bisbee, Arizona) to St Elmo's Bar. A
huge moose head on the back wall was adorned with female underwear."


--Sunday Times

Better try geese, then.

Regards

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 7:38:29 PM4/3/06
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Vaneyes wrote:

> Better try geese, then.

As long as you feed them corn mash for two weeks before slaughter and
use only their sickened livers, I'm fine with that.

In fact, more than fine. The liver of a fattened goose is one of God's
greatest gifts to man.

TD

JohnGavin

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:08:40 PM4/3/06
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God intended them to be gifts to Geese.

Tony Overington

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:23:36 PM4/3/06
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JohnGavin wrote:
> Ah, yes, charm and elegance - qualities that even Richter often
> lacks.........

What "Richter often lacks" is an identification with certain composers
(or charm and elegance, your call). His Chopin is totally unidiomatic.
He is cited often when recordings of this composer's music are brought
up, yet I suspect it's his technique which brings him through, not
anything particularly meaningful or beautiful to say (or sing or dance
about, more accurately). I've rather gone off his Scriabin too. A
tremendous 5th sonata in many ways, but his stasis in the quieter
passages goes against the nervous undercurrent I expect from this
composer. He wasn't perfect. Surprise.

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:31:19 PM4/3/06
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In the beginning.

But after seven days he made man.

TD

tomdeacon

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:32:59 PM4/3/06
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Actually no surprise.

But you are right about the Chopin. Totally unidiomatic. Not even
fascinating or intriguing. Just plain wrong.

TD

JohnGavin

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:34:27 PM4/3/06
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Watch out then, because He might make another species who will come
after YOUR liver!!

JohnGavin

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Apr 3, 2006, 8:42:55 PM4/3/06
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I agree with both Tony and Tom here. Richter was a giant of a pianist
- but his Chopin just too pent up and overbearing - I feel that way
about his Ravel as well. His greatness flourishes when he is well
matched with the right composer e.g. some Beethoven, Prokofiev, most
Scriabin etc.

Citizen

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Apr 3, 2006, 9:22:23 PM4/3/06
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Here are my favorites
1: Janis (best), Zimerman/Ozawa & Hough tied for second
2: Richter/Wislocki (by far), Cliburn/Reiner, Zimerman/Ozawa, &
Rubinstein/Reiner far seconds/thirds/fourths
3: Cliburn/Kondrashin, Argerich/Chailly (lately I've been leaning
toward Cliburn, but it's probably my mood); Horowitz/Reiner is also
pretty good (very unbalanced onics though)
4. Michelangeli/Gracis, with Kocsis a surprisingly close second
Pag: I haven't heard a very convincing one, but Katchen/Kertesz &
Rubinstein/Reiner are pretty good

Ones that I dislike but many people like: Hough #2 (rushed), Wild's
complete set (often rushed, poor tone), two of the three Horowitz #3s
(ugly & rushed; the good one is rushed but not ugly), all the
Ashkenazys (brittle tone, often rushed), Giesecking #3 (no longer
Rachmaninovian in character), Grimaud #2 (weak), and Pletnev #3
(ugliest Rach I ever heard).

That's a lot of un-favorites and a few favorites, but of course just my
opinion.

Citizen

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Apr 3, 2006, 9:25:41 PM4/3/06
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Oh! I forgot completely about Rachmaninoff's own recordings. He
recorded all of them, out of which I like #1, #3, and #4, but find #2
and the Paganini Rhapsody to be less inspired.

Paul Ilechko

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Apr 3, 2006, 9:31:35 PM4/3/06
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One that I dislike but many people like: Argerich/Chailly in #3

They don't even seem to be playing the same music, and if they are, it's
only to see who can finish first.

Vaneyes

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Apr 3, 2006, 10:27:44 PM4/3/06
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Brendan R. Wehrung

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Apr 3, 2006, 11:01:47 PM4/3/06
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Try to track down the CD of his conducting. Isle of the Dead sounds
considerably more "modern" than in many modern recordings.

Brendan

Brendan R. Wehrung

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Apr 3, 2006, 11:03:36 PM4/3/06
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Can I tell somebody in the DEA you sell cannabis seeds?

Brendan

tomdeacon

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Apr 4, 2006, 3:42:20 AM4/4/06
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No need.

He already invented wine!!!

TD

fha.jonkers

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Apr 4, 2006, 3:43:30 AM4/4/06
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Tony Overington schreef:

> JohnGavin wrote:
> > Ah, yes, charm and elegance - qualities that even Richter often
> > lacks.........
>
> What "Richter often lacks" is an identification with certain composers
> (or charm and elegance, your call). His Chopin is totally unidiomatic.
> He is cited often when recordings of this composer's music are brought
> up, yet I suspect it's his technique which brings him through, not
> anything particularly meaningful or beautiful to say (or sing or dance
> about, more accurately).

But those two Praga Nocturnes!! And the Polonaise-Fantasie!

That has nothing to do with virtuosity.

tomdeacon

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Apr 4, 2006, 3:45:33 AM4/4/06
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Brendan R. Wehrung wrote:

> Can I tell somebody in the DEA you sell cannabis seeds?

Why of course.

They can come and have a cup of tea.

TD

fha.jonkers

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Apr 4, 2006, 3:48:15 AM4/4/06
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Citizen schreef:

> Ones that I dislike but many people like: Hough #2 (rushed), Wild's
> complete set (often rushed, poor tone), two of the three Horowitz #3s
> (ugly & rushed; the good one is rushed but not ugly), all the
> Ashkenazys (brittle tone, often rushed),

How is Ashkenazy "rushed"?

tomdeacon

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Apr 4, 2006, 7:30:18 AM4/4/06
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Good question.

Ashkenazy has ALWAYS been one of those pianists who played No. 3 "slow"
rather than "quick". And that from the early 1960s when I first heard
him play this in concert. He has never changed that approach.

TD

fha.jonkers

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Apr 4, 2006, 8:09:44 AM4/4/06
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tomdeacon schreef:

> Ashkenazy has ALWAYS been one of those pianists who played No. 3 "slow"
> rather than "quick". And that from the early 1960s when I first heard
> him play this in concert. He has never changed that approach.
>
> TD

Yes, and not just No. 3.

Tony Overington

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Apr 4, 2006, 8:54:46 AM4/4/06
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fha.jonkers wrote:
> But those two Praga Nocturnes!! And the Polonaise-Fantasie!
>
> That has nothing to do with virtuosity.

I like that CD a lot, but the latter's hardly sensitive in the manner
you get from Moravec, Sokolov and even Cziffra, and the Nocturnes have
far too many (okay, there's no such thing as too many with these)
wonderful performances. Like I said, unidiomatic.

Citizen

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Apr 4, 2006, 5:43:23 PM4/4/06
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I'm sorry; I must have confused him with someone else in my haste. I
just dug out his Decca Trio set and listened to the #3: its tempo is
quite slow. Nevertheless, I stand by the fact that the tone is
brittle, especially in the first movement cadenza.

Mitchell Kaufman

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Apr 5, 2006, 8:59:03 AM4/5/06
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On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 02:34:52 -0400, Thomas Wood wrote:

> For #2 and the Paganini Rhapsody, I'm hopelessly imprinted on
> Rubinstein/Reiner/Chicago SO/RCA.

Me too. I have all the CD reissues of these performances, and oddly enough,
the first one (from the mid-'80s--not a high point in the history of the
format) sounds best. Go figger.

MK

Citizen

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Apr 3, 2006, 9:59:33 PM4/3/06
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Mr. Ilechko:
I agree that sometimes they seem to race to the finish, but I must say
that I believe that they seem very much to be playing the same music to
me. Argerich and Chailly seem to pair very well.

Dan Koren

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Apr 7, 2006, 3:57:01 AM4/7/06
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"Citizen" <Flammes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Both on and off stage.

dk


tomdeacon

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Apr 7, 2006, 6:48:54 AM4/7/06
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Perhaps you might consider the possibility that Ashkenazy's "tone" is
not his fault, but that of the Decca engineers, who inevitably turned
his piano into something resembling a amplified xzylophone. If you had
any experience of Ashkenazy in public - particularly when these
recordings were made - you would not be making senseless remarks about
his tone.

TD

JohnGavin

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Apr 7, 2006, 7:24:16 AM4/7/06
to

I don't entirely agree. I've seen Ashkenazy live quite a few times in
the 70s, and clearly recall a punchy approach to the keyboard - like a
boxer. Of course, Decca's recordings amplified this problem - but
Ashkenazy's approach is captured even on the earlier Russian recording
of the Chopin Etudes.

Also, it's interesting that Alicia DeLarrocha's sound on Deccas, which
overlap to a great degree with Ashkenazy's time, isn't bad at all.

jony...@earthlink.net

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Apr 7, 2006, 8:16:57 AM4/7/06
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> And while I'm at it, anyone like a complete set of all four?
> Wild/Horenstein?


Yes, definitely, especially #1 & 4, but in the Chesky remsterings.

jy

tomdeacon

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Apr 7, 2006, 8:49:03 AM4/7/06
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JohnGavin wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:

> > Perhaps you might consider the possibility that Ashkenazy's "tone" is
> > not his fault, but that of the Decca engineers, who inevitably turned
> > his piano into something resembling a amplified xzylophone. If you had
> > any experience of Ashkenazy in public - particularly when these
> > recordings were made - you would not be making senseless remarks about
> > his tone.
> >
> > TD
>
> I don't entirely agree. I've seen Ashkenazy live quite a few times in
> the 70s, and clearly recall a punchy approach to the keyboard - like a
> boxer. Of course, Decca's recordings amplified this problem - but
> Ashkenazy's approach is captured even on the earlier Russian recording
> of the Chopin Etudes.

This is utter nonsense.

His Chopin Etudes from Russia reveal an incredible control of legato
and beautiful tone.

> Also, it's interesting that Alicia DeLarrocha's sound on Deccas, which
> overlap to a great degree with Ashkenazy's time, isn't bad at all.

???

Nonsense.

Perhaps you never heard Larrocha either. Just try her Hispavox
recordings as recently remastered from the original tapes on Spanish
EMI and you will get a revelation.

Decca's piano sound has always sucked!

TD

tomdeacon

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Apr 7, 2006, 8:50:13 AM4/7/06
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They are even better on LP.

But that is another matter, I suppose.

TD

JohnGavin

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Apr 7, 2006, 8:52:52 AM4/7/06
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Your hearing has been de-sensitized from too many Tureck recordings.

gggg gggg

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Sep 20, 2021, 12:24:19 AMSep 20
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On Saturday, April 1, 2006 at 6:52:28 PM UTC-8, MIFrost wrote:
> I watched the old British tear-jerker "Brief Encounter" on television a
> couple of days ago. Been listening to Concerto #2 ever since. What are
> people's favorite recordings of these four concerti? My favorite #2 (this
> week, at least) seems to be Rubinstein/Reiner. Any opinions on the various
> Ashkenazys (Previn and/or Fistoulari and/or Kondrashin)? Katchen/Solti?
> Graffman/Bernstein?...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Year_Itch#Soundtrack

Herman

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Sep 20, 2021, 3:58:08 AMSep 20
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Please get this gggg person a straightjacket and have him certified.
Reviving a topic old enough to have a driver's license for just some stupid trivia thing.

Chris J.

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Sep 20, 2021, 4:32:39 AMSep 20
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On 20 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:

> Please get this gggg person a straightjacket and have him certified.

Are you sure it's a person and not a bot?

Chris

Herman

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Sep 20, 2021, 6:20:08 AMSep 20
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Crazy person.

Graham

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Sep 20, 2021, 10:45:02 AMSep 20
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On 2021-09-20 1:58 a.m., Herman wrote:
> Please get this gggg person a straightjacket and have him certified.
> Reviving a topic old enough to have a driver's license for just some stupid trivia thing.
>
It's easy to kill-file him.

Steve Emerson

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Sep 20, 2021, 11:36:30 AMSep 20
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What's the current method for kill-filing via Google Groups? My access to a news server died long ago, and I do miss that capability.

Thx,
SE.

Graham

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Sep 20, 2021, 11:44:56 AMSep 20
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Sorry, I don't use Google Groups.I paid a trivial sum for a Blocknews
account and access it with Thunderbird. The kill-file feature in
Thunderbird.

Gerard

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Sep 20, 2021, 12:01:47 PMSep 20
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Op 2021-09-20 om 17:36 schreef Steve Emerson:
You probably can use nntp.aioe.org as (free) news server. And
Thunderbird as news reader. It seems to work (I've used it for this post).

Frank Berger

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Sep 20, 2021, 1:04:37 PMSep 20
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Kill-filing is only partially effective. You don't see the gggggg's original post, but you will indirectly see it when people start replying to it.

MiNe109

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Sep 20, 2021, 2:03:54 PMSep 20