Pines of Rome -- Response
Ehrlich606
Somebody asked about Pines of Rome so I will give it a shot. Recordings I know
are:
Bernstein, NYPO, CBS
Dorati, Minneapolis, Mercury
Karajan, Philharmonia, EMI
Karajan, BPO, DG
Kempe, Royal PO, Classics
Maazel, Berlin PO, DG
Maazel, Cleveland, Decca
Maazel, Pittsburgh, CBS Sony
Muti, Philadelphia, EMI
Ormandy, Philadelphia, CBS
Ozawa, Boston, DG
Reiner, Chicago, RCA
Tortelier, Philharmonia, Chandos
Toscanini, NBC, RCA
In evaluating this piece, you again have to have an idea of what it should
sound like. Part of this work focuses on solo work, such as the woodwinds in
the Janiculum, then there's the bird recording (not all bird recordings for
this piece are equally good!), then there are the transitions. I find the
transitions from the first to the second and the third to the fourth to be
important (as are all the transitions in the Roman Trilogy.)
The first movement should bounce, because it's kids playing. Reiner, e.g., is
very good at this but the separation of the percussion in the sound picture (a
characteristic in most Reiner RCA's) is not to the benefit of the piece. The
second movement builds to a climax and the brass has to blast, and not too
fast, one thing I like about the Reiner is the unique quality of his French
horns here, that don't come through in other recordings. Woodwind playing is
the condition for a good Janiculum.
However, I like this piece, but it isn't Beethoven's Fifth. Therefore I will
be a heretic and say that a good "Pines" depends on a good ending to the piece.
The criteria should be slow and steadily articulated rhythm up to the cymbal
clash, as much noise as possible from the trombones and everybody else
immediately thereafter.
Here is where I have frequently been disappointed. Many conductors take this
too fast, or they vary the tempo, or they take the drum configurations --
sounds like the guy beating time on the galley in Ben Hur -- and articulate all
the notes except just one (which is preferable.) In this respect I have to
record my disappointment with Reiner.
My favorites for this piece are: Maazel, Karajan.
Maazel recorded this three times, and as a set, his trilogy with Pittsburgh is
very very good. But the first Pines that he did with the BPO is really a
classic. Unfortunately it is not on CD yet. It has all the elements of
building climax and splendfierous brass described above.
My next two selections would be either of the Karajan's except there's a
special note about the second one. The first one with Philharmonia should
probably not be too difficult to get, like most pieces where there is a slow
crescendo to be built Karajan is superb here (he frequently waits until the
very last nanosecond to cut loose). It's from '58, but that's not a problem
unless you insist on sonics.
The second recording, from the 1970's, is absolutely awesome all the way
around. It has one feature that makes it different, however. At the top of
the curve after the cymbal clash it sounds as though the trombonist or bass
trombonist has walked right up to the mike and has blasted into it. He does
two or three sustained notes like this, and while it works for me it is a
little unusual compared to the normal treatments.
So, I would try the Karajan/BPO first. If you don't like that one, try
Karajan/Philharmonia. If you don't like either of those, well.... I'd have to
see Fantasia to see what it is that you are looking for.
David Grayshan
I find to be too much of the Herbie that I do not like.....
Ehrlich606 wrote:
> (Snip)
>
> So, I would try the Karajan/BPO first. If you don't like that one, try
> Karajan/Philharmonia. If you don't like either of those, well.... I'd have to
> see Fantasia to see what it is that you are looking for.
(Snip)
BUT: if you like a steady last movement, and I most emphatically agree that this is
what is required (a bunch of weary, dusty legionnaires coming home from a campaign
are unlikely to be marching at a Light Infantry parade ground pace!), try Mata on
Dorian. SUPERB!
Regards,
David.
thebarnman
Ehrlich606 <ehrli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000826203651...@nso-fb.aol.com...
>
>
> Therefore I will
> be a heretic and say that a good "Pines" depends on a good ending to the
piece.
> The criteria should be slow and steadily articulated rhythm up to the
cymbal
> clash, as much noise as possible from the trombones and everybody else
> immediately thereafter.
bang on.
>
> Here is where I have frequently been disappointed. Many conductors take
this
> too fast,
bang on again. i was so diappointed with the muti because of the faster
appian way, but his isn't all bad. it has good points. but you're so right
about conductors taking this too fast. the atmosphere i see here are the
romans marching from awaaaay off in the distance and they slowly approach
the cheering crowds as they return from a perfectly decent bit of
slaughtering. the very start of the appian way has those discordant
strings, which to me make it feel as though people are looking out... way
over the dusty hillside, and waves of heat are reflecting off the earth.
taking the appian way too fast turns this into.. a bunch of strings playing
discordant sounds. slowing it down creates the atmosphere.
i have the karajan dgg and don't recall the trombones sounding as loud as
you say, but probably will once i hear it... what i don't like about the
karajan are the french horns... at this very same spot. they're drowned
out.. which is most odd for him. what makes it a must have for me is the
way the strings of the berlin shimmer, literally shimmer at the end of
Janiculum. Breathtaking playing, as usual from Karajan and the Berlin.
i didn't know about the emi recording and will seek it out, asap.
another reason why i love the karajan cd is because it has the most
sumptuous Albinoni Adagio... ever. The Ancient Airs and Dances Suite III is
wonderful, in that i find this kind of playing and performance right up my
alley.
when i had lp's, i only had the munch. i loved it. i haven't heard it in
over 20 years, how does it compare?
Ehrlich606
<mynewsg...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>i have the karajan dgg and don't recall the trombones sounding as loud as
>you say, but probably will once i hear it... what i don't like about the
>karajan are the french horns... at this very same spot. they're drowned
>out.. which is most odd for him. what makes it a must have for me is the
>way the strings of the berlin shimmer, literally shimmer at the end of
>Janiculum. Breathtaking playing, as usual from Karajan and the Berlin.
>
>i didn't know about the emi recording and will seek it out, asap.
>
You really should, and so should the original poster! Naturally I have gone
back and listened to a number of versions of this piece -- don't have Munch so
can't comment -- most take the Appian Way at about 4,40 (Maazel, Ozawa) and are
too fast. Karajan 1978 takes it at 5,14, but the 1958 EMI with Philharmonia
comes in at --
six minutes and eight seconds. I listened to it again today with the 'phones,
to see how the sound came through. Fine. Just fine. And the buildup to the
climax is superb, there's one perfectly calibrated cymbal tap just before the
big smash. At the climax, horns are resplendent on the left, along with the
bass trombones, which are well differentiated. Yep, K EMI 58. That's the one
to get.
There is much more clarity to the EMI compared to the DG, in reference to
preference. The duel between the horns and the trombones is lost by the horns,
the horns are swamped left, and the 'bones are very loud in the right.
Classicaljb
Montreal Orchestra with Dutoit. It is so wonderful to hear such a clean
orchestra play something so great. Check out this recording if you have never
heard it. I would also recommend at this time to check out anything else they
have recorded because of how precise they are.
vme...@mmcable.com
Here are a few recordings:
Pini di Roma Toscanini A.(cond.) RCA WDM 1768 (EP), BMG 60262-2-RG (CD)
Pini di Roma Ormandy E.(cond.) CBS KS 6587 (LP deluxe issue with booklet), CBS SBK 48267 (CD)
Pini di Roma Von Karajan H.(cond.) Columbia HMV EMI 637-252159-2 & DCA 700192 (CD), Columbia BTA 135 (RT)
Pini di Roma Maazel L.(cond.) DGG DGG 447 223-2 (CD "Basic Respighi")
Pini di Roma Stokowski L.(cond.) United Artists EMI 2435-66864-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Sargent M.(cond.) Everest I Gr. Musicisti-67 (LP), Price-Less D24770, Everest EV 9018 (CD)
Pini di Roma Reiner F.(cond.) RCA RCA ATL-4040 (.5 remastered LP), BMG 09026 68079-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Ansermet E.(cond.) Decca London 3121-7 (CD, Japan)
Pini di Roma Doráti A.(cond.) Mercury Mercury 432 007-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Kempe R.(cond.) Reader's Digest Quintessence PMC 7005 (LPC), Chesky CD18 (CD)
Pini di Roma Munch C.(cond.) Decca Decca 444 106-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Kertész I.(cond.) Decca Decca 425 507-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Bernstein L.(cond.) CBS Sony SMK 60174-10 (CD)
Pini di Roma Toscanini A.(cond.) Arturo Toscanini Society Iron Needle IN 1335, Legend LGD 138 (CD)
Pini di Roma Pedrotti A.(cond.) Supraphon Supraphon 11 0291-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma De Sabata V.(cond.) I Grandi Interpreti Nuova Era 2232 (CD)
Pini di Roma Ormandy E.(cond.) RCA RCA 60486-2-RV & BMG 74321 24208-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Maazel L.(cond.) Decca Mobile MFQR 1-507 (LP), Decca 443 759-2 (CD "The Ess. Respighi")
Pini di Roma Gardelli L.(cond.) EMI Angel SS-45005 (HPC), EMI 569 358-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Von Karajan H.(cond.) DGG DGG 413 822-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Ozawa S.(cond.) DGG DGG 415 846-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Celibidache S.(cond.) Fonit Cetra (Archivio RAI) Nuova Era 2238 (CD)
Pini di Roma Dutoit C.(cond.) Decca Decca 410 145-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma De Waart E.(cond.) Philips Philips 411-419-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Svetlanov Y.(cond.) Melodiya Melodiya MCD 155 (CD)
Pini di Roma Muti R.(cond.) EMI EMI CDC 747316-2 (CD)
Pini di Roma Lane L.(cond.) Telarc Telarc 80085 (CD)
Pini di Roma Clark K.(cond.) Pro Arte Pro Arte CDD 325, Intersound CDD 3515 (CD)
Pini di Roma Lozano F.(cond.) Sonatina Forlane FF057 (CD)
Pini di Roma Lenard O.(cond.) Opus Opus 9350 2150, Basic Classics TRA 029 (CD)
Pini di Roma Exc.: 4 (I pini della via Appia) Banks E.(cond.) Polyphonic QPRM 112D
Pini di Roma Lozano F.(cond.) Sonatina 165 022-2
Pini di Roma Keilberth J.(cond.) Maximus MCD-110
Pini di Roma Exc.: 1, 4
Davis C.(cond.) American Gramaphone AGCD 3089
Pini di Roma Exc.: 4 (I pini della via Appia)
Snell H.(cond.) Doyen DOY CD 004
Pini di Roma
Gardelli L.(cond.) Hungaroton HRC 168
Pini di Roma
Toscanini A.(cond.) Memories HR 4168
Pini di Roma Exc.: 4 (I pini della via Appia)
Favre P.(cond.) Artlab 91673
Pini di Roma
Cantelli G.(cond.) AS Disc AS 507
Pini di Roma
Tortelier J.P.(cond.) Chandos CHAN 8989
Pini di Roma
Marriner N.(cond.) Philips 432 133-2
Pini di Roma
Bátiz E.(cond.) Naxos 8.550539
Pini di Roma
Celibidache S.(cond.) Artists FED 034
Pini di Roma
Sinopoli G.(cond.) DGG 437 534-2
Pini di Roma
Mata E.(cond.) Dorian DOR-90182
Pini di Roma
Rizzi C.(cond.) Teldec 9031-76263-2
Pini di Roma Exc.: 4 (I pini della via Appia)
Michel G.(cond.) Artlab 94770
Pini di Roma Exc.: 3 (I pini del Gianicolo)
Spigelman R.(cond.) ABC Music R S0270
Pini di Roma
Kempe R.(cond.) RCA/BMG 74321306202
Pini di Roma Exc.: 4 (I pini della via Appia)
Cutt G.(cond.) Chandos CHAN 4545
Pini di Roma
Snell H.(cond.) Doyen DOY CD 045
Pini di Roma
Jansons M.(cond.) EMI 5 55600-2
Pini di Roma
Maazel L.(cond.) Sony SK 66843
Pini di Roma
Hirokami J.(cond.) Canyon PCCL-00374
Pini di Roma
Gatti D.(cond.) Conifer BMG 75605 51292-2
Pini di Roma
Silvestri C.(cond.) BBC BBCL 4007-2
Pini di Roma
Schillings A.(cond.) De Haske DHR 11.005
Pini di Roma
Celibidache S.(cond.) DGG 453 190-2
Pini di Roma
Nozy N.(cond.) René Gailly CD87 157
Pini di Roma Exc.: I, III (in part), IV (in part)
Levine J.(cond.) Walt Disney Records 60986-7
Pini di Roma
López-Cobos J.(cond.) Telarc 80505
thebarnman
"Classicaljb" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000827214129...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
i've seen it at the library, i'll see if it's in today, i'm taking the
mravinsky tchaikovsky 4-6 back, what a thrilling set that is.
i'm going to buy it once i'm in the city again., but i'll check out the
dutoit. i generally find that dutoit doesn't take the kind of risks
(pushing an orchestra to play to the very edge) that i prefer, but will give
it a listen.
his le sacre is good, but like i say, it doesn't go to "the edge".
Stan Punzel
the Pine of the Appian Way.
Stan
David S. Phipps
Roman Trilogy and here are my results:
Reiner/Chicago - Supercharged brass/bass, artificial sound, terrible
clarinet solo (my high school students get a better sound!), no Feste
Karajan/Berlin - missing Feste Romane, lots of lushness, not much thought to
expressive details, great woodwind solos
Ozawa/Boston - one of the best, a little too straight forward for me, but
very will played, Fountains a little weak
Ormandy/Philadelphia - good playing (except for buzzzzzzzzy clarinet
soloist), not much expressive detail, old sound
Jansons/Oslo - one of the best, very well played, a few interpretive
disagreements with me, great sound
Dutoit/Montreal - great sound, great playing (including clarinetist), no
interpretation whatsoever, very little expressive detail, ready to SHOOT
conductor by end of album for wasting such a fabulous job by the excellent
Montreal orchestra and good engineers
Muti/Philadelphia - decent sound, clarinet player (Anthony Gigliotti) less
annoying for Muti than for Ormandy, but STILL annoying, good interpretation,
horns GROSSLY out of tune at climax of Feste 2nd mvt, sloppy precision in
1st mvt of Pines, great trombones (go, Charlie Vernon!)
Gatti/St. Cecelia - Absolutely the best, no hold barred, my search is over.
Great sound, great playing (including clarinet), wonderful/highly detailed
interpretation, rich with fresh and well-thought ideas - absolutely a
triumph from start to finish.
Hope this helps!
--
David S. Phipps
Hobbs, NM, USA
To reply, delete "nospam" from my address
David S. Phipps
Yes, it's just a shame that Dutoit didn't show up for the
sessions.............
--
David S. Phipps
Hobbs, NM, USA
To reply, remove "nospam" from my address
Ron
"David S. Phipps" wrote:
>
>
> Gatti/St. Cecelia - Absolutely the best, no hold barred, my search is over.
> Great sound, great playing (including clarinet), wonderful/highly detailed
> interpretation, rich with fresh and well-thought ideas - absolutely a
> triumph from start to finish.
>
> Hope this helps!
> --
> David S. Phipps
> Hobbs, NM, USA
>
> To reply, delete "nospam" from my address
What label?
Regards,
Ron
Matthew Silverstein
over.
> > Great sound, great playing (including clarinet), wonderful/highly detailed
> > interpretation, rich with fresh and well-thought ideas - absolutely a
> > triumph from start to finish.
>
Conifer, I believe.
Matty