Mahler 1 - Walter - NBC - 1939
Randy Lane
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=497949&album_group=1
Anyone familiar with it? I already own (and love!) the NYPO and
COLUMBIA SO versions. Will this be much different?
operafan
> I don't recall ever having seen this recording before:
>
>
> Anyone familiar with it? I already own (and love!) the NYPO and
> COLUMBIA SO versions. Will this be much different?
I have it, and boy is it fiery. Very exciting and well played. The
sound is 1939, but not bad for its day. I like it much better than the
other two versions you mentioned. There is also a 1947 Walter Mahler 2
with Vienna that is a superb performance and much more exciting than
the later one--but the sound is inferior to that 1939 Mahler 1.
Randy Lane
I know the Vienna 2nd from Japanese LPs I picked up a few decades ago.
Like you say, the sound is inferior, but the performance is far more
lively and emotionally charged than the NYPO recording. The more I
hear the more I am convinced Walter would have done himself justice if
he had been like Celibidache and shunned the studio. Performances
where he is at the helm in a live concert are a totally different
beast when compared to his compendium of studio takes. And it sounds
like this 1939 #1 is similar. Thanks for the response.
Is your evaluation of this exact release from Music and Arts?
Dontait...@aol.com
I agree completely with operafan. "Fiery" is a good description of
the performance. I also agree that Walter's live performances are far
more intense and involved than things done in recording sessions. I
agree that one can't assess him as a conductor without judging him on
the basis of his live performances.
This live NBC Mahler 1 is more like the mono NYPSO recording than
the rather stately Columbia SO stereo version pieced together from
multiple takes made during more than one day, but the NBC version is
not only faster than those recordings, it's probably faster than most
of the currently available versions. It's volatile. Amazingly so. But
it must be typical of the way Walter conducted the symphony until his
last years, because I have here two post-World War II live
performances -- one from Munich around 1950, and the recent Testament
CD (SBT 1429) with the London Philharmonic on November 6, 1947. All of
them are hair-raising in their energy and sheer speed: the LPO version
is circa 46:30. When I recently listened to the Testament CD I thought
about how Walter seemed to be presenting this symphony as a *young
man's* work, full (despite the third movement) of the confidence,
energy, and strength of youth. Not at all an "epic." And perhaps
Walter discussed the symphony with Mahler and knew what he meant in
it? Perhaps Walter heard Mahler conduct it? Perhaps what one hears
from him is what Mahler wanted?
I don't know the Music & Arts CD of the NBC performance; I have a
tape copy I was sent years ago of the NBC recordings that I know were
same as the source of the M&A CD. So I can't comment about the latter.
Anyway, to end a long message: try this. It is a revelation about
the symphony and about what sort of conductor Bruno Walter really was
for all but the last few years of his career spent in recording
sessions.
Don Tait
gns
> I don't recall ever having seen this recording before:
>
>
> Anyone familiar with it? I already own (and love!) the NYPO and
> COLUMBIA SO versions. Will this be much different?
I used to have a tape of this that had bad IM distortion. Then there
was a better copy. It was also issued on Grammophono 2000 in bad sound
with canned echo. This will doubtless be much finer. Pearl has also
issued some BW NBC concert material and I believe AS had a couple of
things (Mozart). All of his NBC concerts should be available.
Yes, this is a fiery performance of incredible tensility and power.
gns
I forgot to add that the rest of this concert was Wagner Faust
Overture and one of Walter's signature pieces, Siegfried Idyll. A
shame that's not available, he always did so beautifully with it.
Edward Cowan
Legend LGD 106, stated to be from a 1950 performance. That would have
been the Sunday broadcast of February 12, 1950. The timing is 49:36,
which is close to that of the Columbia recording of Jan. 25, 1954. The
recorded sound is quite good, and the performance strongly recalls that
heard in the 1954 recording. (Also on that 1950 concert were
Mendelssohn's MSND Overture and Haydn's Sym. no.88. This info. taken
from Shanet's book _Philharmonic: A History of New York's Orchestra_.)
The Legend CD is (P) 1994. I got it quite some time before Sony
published the 1954 recording on Masterworks Heritage MHK 63328.
I do hope to acquire that NBC Mahler 1st and whatever else there exists
from those NBC broadcasts. --E.A.C.
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
> This live NBC Mahler 1 is more like the mono NYPSO recording than
> the rather stately Columbia SO stereo version pieced together from
> multiple takes made during more than one day, but the NBC version is
> not only faster than those recordings, it's probably faster than most
> of the currently available versions. It's volatile. Amazingly so. But
> it must be typical of the way Walter conducted the symphony until his
> last years, because I have here two post-World War II live
> performances -- one from Munich around 1950, and the recent Testament
> CD (SBT 1429) with the London Philharmonic on November 6, 1947. All of
> them are hair-raising in their energy and sheer speed: the LPO version
> is circa 46:30.
<snip>
> Don Tait
--
hrabanus
ansermetniac
Cowan) wrote:
>I have a Walter Mahler 1st with NYPO on the made-in-Italy CD label
>Legend LGD 106, stated to be from a 1950 performance. That would have
>been the Sunday broadcast of February 12, 1950. The timing is 49:36,
>which is close to that of the Columbia recording of Jan. 25, 1954. The
>recorded sound is quite good, and the performance strongly recalls that
>heard in the 1954 recording. (Also on that 1950 concert were
>Mendelssohn's MSND Overture and Haydn's Sym. no.88. This info. taken
>from Shanet's book _Philharmonic: A History of New York's Orchestra_.)
>
>The Legend CD is (P) 1994. I got it quite some time before Sony
>published the 1954 recording on Masterworks Heritage MHK 63328.
>
>I do hope to acquire that NBC Mahler 1st and whatever else there exists
>from those NBC broadcasts. --E.A.C.
Legends and Notes are the same exscat cds as AS disc
Abbedd
Roland van Gaalen
pretty good sound) is elegant and straightforward but very exciting. Another
favorite of mine is Walter's 1947 recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra
(Tahra / TAH 504; the sound is so-so). This version is more inflected,
following the pre-war orchestra's pre-war tradition (at least, so it seems
to me). I strongly recommend both.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
R.P.vanGaalenATchello.nl
Randy Lane
wrote:
What about the Orfeo recording of No. 1 (BRSO 1950) coupled with the
Schubert 8th?
"M.W. Kluge"
The Music and Arts release includes both Wagner works as well as the
Mahler 1. I can assure you that the sound is much better than the
Grammophono disaster. Disclosure department: I wrote the booklet
notes.
Mark
Mark
Steve
> I have a Walter Mahler 1st with NYPO on the made-in-Italy CD label
> Legend LGD 106, stated to be from a 1950 performance. That would have
> been the Sunday broadcast of February 12, 1950. The timing is 49:36,
> which is close to that of the Columbia recording of Jan. 25, 1954. The
> recorded sound is quite good, and the performance strongly recalls that
> heard in the 1954 recording. (Also on that 1950 concert were
> Mendelssohn's MSND Overture and Haydn's Sym. no.88. This info. taken
> from Shanet's book _Philharmonic: A History of New York's Orchestra_.)
>
> The Legend CD is (P) 1994. I got it quite some time before Sony
> published the 1954 recording on Masterworks Heritage MHK 63328.
>
> I do hope to acquire that NBC Mahler 1st and whatever else there exists
> from those NBC broadcasts. --E.A.C.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> > This live NBC Mahler 1 is more like the mono NYPSO recording than
> > the rather stately Columbia SO stereo version pieced together from
> > multiple takes made during more than one day, but the NBC version is
> > not only faster than those recordings, it's probably faster than most
> > of the currently available versions. It's volatile. Amazingly so. But
> > it must be typical of the way Walter conducted the symphony until his
> > last years, because I have here two post-World War II live
> > performances -- one from Munich around 1950, and the recent Testament
> > CD (SBT 1429) with the London Philharmonic on November 6, 1947. All of
> > them are hair-raising in their energy and sheer speed: the LPO version
> > is circa 46:30.
> <snip>
> > Don Tait
>
> --
> hrabanus
It should be noted that what was claimed to be the 1950 concert of the
Mahler 1st with Walter and the NYP, variously issued on AS Disc,
Legend and Notes (all identical, as already noted) is, in fact, the
broadcast of January 24, 1954 - the performance that these artists
gave the day before making their Columbia recording (SL 218 / ML
4958). At the time that Erik Ryding, James Altena and I worked on the
online Walter Discography a decade ago, I was under the impression
that the CD releases of the Mahler were of the 1950 performance (I
compiled the entries from Mahler to Mozart). A comparison with a known
source of the 1954 concert revealed that what has been credited to
1950 in fact was not. Interestingly, the 1954 performance also has
been miscredited to Dimitri Mitropoulos and mis-dated as 1955 on a
1980s Grandi Concerti LP issue. As with sources of a Bruckner 9th
dated 1950 (given a week before or after the Mahler), I have begun to
question whether or not either work exists on recordings made from
these concerts, except for the possibility of private "in-house"
recorded sources.
Steve Reveyoso
Edward Cowan
the Legend CD. --E.A.C.
Steve <titanpro...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> It should be noted that what was claimed to be the 1950 concert of the
> Mahler 1st with Walter and the NYP, variously issued on AS Disc,
> Legend and Notes (all identical, as already noted) is, in fact, the
> broadcast of January 24, 1954 - the performance that these artists
> gave the day before making their Columbia recording (SL 218 / ML
> 4958).
--
hrabanus
woytek
> I don't recall ever having seen this recording before:
>
>
> Anyone familiar with it? I already own (and love!) the NYPO and
> COLUMBIA SO versions. Will this be much different?
It was available for download via this group:
http://groups.google.pl/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/b9607ac230634432/4f14baad9357ea76?hl=pl&q=mahler+walter+nbc
The performance is very exciting!
hiker_rs
> .... At the time that Erik Ryding, James Altena and I worked on the
> online Walter Discography a decade ago,...
> Steve Reveyoso- Hide quoted text -
Steve,
whatever became of that discography? I notice that the link has
expired.
It was a great resource and I'm sure many appreciated having it.
Rich
Steve
The Discography was temporarily unavailable but is back and accessible
at this link: http://www.bwdiscography.com/.
By the way, I should mention that I just received a copy of the the
Music and Arts issue of the complete 1939 Wagner-Mahler concert and it
is wonderful. The Faust Overture was previously issued in a two-disc
Walter/NBC set by M&A over 20 years ago but now we have the whole show
on one CD. Mark Kluge did his typically superb job with the notes and
the sound is excellent. I recommend this release very strongly.
As a follow up to Don Tait's most insightful post on on Bruno Walter,
I would add that there are examples of Walter in the studio that rise
to the level of performances such as this NBC program (and the others
from his 1939 and 1940 guest appearances on that network): Brahms'
1st, 2nd and 3rd Symphonies - all recorded in 1953 - from the Columbia
New York Philharmonic Cycle. With the announcement on this site a
while back that the French United Archives label is scheduled for re-
launch next month, I also recommend that anyone interested in prime
examples of Walter's conducting (and if you are not familiar with his
1950s Brahms recordings) seek out that label's release of this set
which completely represents Columbia SL/DSL-200 (the original LP issue
of these performances). No happy home should be without these records
and it is great to hear that they will be back on the active market
soon.
Steve Reveyoso
Randy Lane
Though I am the one who started the "live vs studio" idea, I agree
with Steve about the Brahms set.
And I can say the same about the United Archive Beethoven Symphony set
from the same forces and period.
I certainly do hope the announcement of the rebirth of United Archives
becomes a reality, and that many of the harder-to-find items come back
into circulation at affordable prices.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> I do hope to acquire that NBC Mahler 1st and whatever else there exists
> from those NBC broadcasts. --E.A.C.
All of them were recorded in excellent sound by NBC, and they exist.
There are fascinating things among them. For instance, a few examples
(not complete programs):
March 11, 1939 -- Mozart: Divertimento K. 287; Piano Concerto no. 20
(Walter conducting from the piano)
March 18, 1939: Weber: Oberon: Overture; Haydn: Symphony no. 92
March 25, 1939: Corelli: Concerto Grosso in G Minor; Daniel Gregory
Mason: Suite on Old English Folksongs
April 1, 1939: All Berlioz -- Corsaire Overture; Damnation of Faust:
3 orchestral excerpts; Symphonie Fantastique
February 17, 1940 -- including Handel's Concerto Grosso Op. 6 no. 6
February 24, 1940 -- D'Indy: Istar Variations; Ravel: Rapsodie
espagnole
March 2, 1940 -- Schumann: Symphony no. 4; Debussy: Prelude to the
Afternoon of a Faun; Smetana: The Bartered Bride: Overture; The Moldau
March 9, 1940 -- Mozart: Minuets and German Dances K. 568 and 605;
Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 5
I only listed the titles that might seem unusual for Bruno Walter
based upon the repertoire that Columbia Records had him record. He did
record some of these titles on 78s: the Mozart concerto, Haydn
symphony, Berlioz symphony, Corelli and Handel concerti grossi,
Schumann 4 (twice in fact), Smetana titles, and Mozart Dances K. 605.
But my studies of his repertoire have convinced me that the other
titles were by no means unusual for him.
Especially amazing among these performances is the Tchaikovsky 5th.
It is astonishingly personal. Some might find it horrifyingly
mannered. I found the Berlioz performances marvellous (the Symphonie
Fantastique was a Walter favorite and specialty) except for the
Corsaire Overture, which is simply bizarre: it's at about half-tempo.
Jaw-dropping. I've never heard anything from Bruno Walter that's at
all as strange.
Anyway, there are great things among these concerts. I believe that
some have been issued on CD on various labels (including the brilliant
Bruckner 4th from February 11, 1940, very different from his stereo
recording) but it would be good to have them all in honest good-
sounding transfers.
Don Tait
Roland van Gaalen
> On Aug 7, 10:18 am, hiker_rs <schie...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> .... At the time that Erik Ryding, James Altena and I worked on the
>>> online Walter Discography a decade ago,...
>>> Steve Reveyoso- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> whatever became of that discography? I notice that the link has
>> expired.
>>
>> It was a great resource and I'm sure many appreciated having it.
>>
>> Rich
>
> The Discography was temporarily unavailable but is back and accessible
> at this link: http://www.bwdiscography.com/.
Thank you very much
However, Legend LGD 106 is dated 1950 and Tahra TAH 504 is missing.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
R.P.vanGaalenATchello.nl
>
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
How do we know "what Mahler wanted?" Every one of his disciples and
pupils, first generation Mahler conductors, conducts his music
differently. e.g. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer, etc. all are quite
different in the Mahler 4th. Tempi, rubati, balances, all different.
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you, Mark. My copy is on order! By my count, there are ten
Walter/NBC broadcasts (1939-40) plus a late one 2/24/1951. If the
material is available, I hope they can all be issued in orderly
fashion instead of the haphazard incomplete fashion we've had
previously.
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Aug 6, 11:39 am, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> And perhaps
> > Walter discussed the symphony with Mahler and knew what he meant in
> > it? Perhaps Walter heard Mahler conduct it? Perhaps what one hears
> > from him is what Mahler wanted?
> How do we know "what Mahler wanted?" Every one of his disciples and
> pupils, first generation Mahler conductors, conducts his music
> differently. e.g. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer, etc. all are quite
> different in the Mahler 4th. Tempi, rubati, balances, all different.
Please note something about my quoted comment.
"Perhaps."
*Perhaps* Bruno Walter discussed the symphony with Mahler. *Perhaps*
Walter heard Mahler conduct it. *PERHAPS* what one hears from him is
what Mahler wanted.
Please check the meaning of the word "perhaps."
"Maybe." "Possibly."
I made no statement that Walter's performances are conclusively what
Mahler wanted. I said that perhaps they are.
Besides, Bruno Walter knew Mahler well and discussed his works with
him at length. How can "we" can know "what Mahler wanted," as you
wrote? Meaning we, us, alive now? Mahler has been dead for 99 years.
Who are the "we" you are talking about? Those living now? I never
cited them. I cited Bruno Walter. Of course "we" cannot know first-
hand what Mahler might -- *perhaps* -- have wanted. Maybe. Possibly. I
was talking about Bruno Walter, who knew Mahler well.
Yes, performances of Mahler's music by those who knew him reflect
the individual personalities of the conductors. Such things are
inevitable from conductors of quality. Bruno Walter certainly
included. Which is why I qualified my remarks with "perhaps."
You seem to have missed that qualification. I hope this message
clarifies the matter.
Don Tait
Roger Kulp
You can hear the 1939 and 1950 Bavarian broadcast performances here.
http://public-domain-archive.com/classic/composition.php?lang=eng&album_no=72
The 1950 one is even hotter than the 1939 one.This old "Fanfare"
review pretty much says it all.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=12770&name_role1=3&bcorder=3&name_id=61846&name_role=4
Roger
Edward Cowan
I'll be looking for them! --E.A.C.
--
hrabanus
operafan
> Is your evaluation of this exact release from Music and Arts?
No. I have a 2-disc set of the Mahler 1 and 2 performances I
mentioned, on Classica d'Oro CDO 1033. I wouldn't be surprised if
other issues have better sound than this budget-label cheapie...
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:8e429a3d-1ef5-4d37-9842-
42acde...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
> The Discography was temporarily unavailable but is back and accessible
> at this link: http://www.bwdiscography.com/.
Thank you very much!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:b3c31d58-3e0d-4867-965b-e20d364160d4
@n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> How do we know "what Mahler wanted?" Every one of his disciples and
> pupils, first generation Mahler conductors, conducts his music
> differently. e.g. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer, etc. all are quite
> different in the Mahler 4th. Tempi, rubati, balances, all different.
Also in the 2nd -- compare Klemperer, Walter, and Fried. Even the several
Klemperers show marked tempo differences among them.
Frederick J. Maroth
It is in true mono, restored from NBC recordings by Aaron Z. Snyder...
Rgds - Fred Maroth
""M.W. Kluge"" <MWK...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:276767da-9d68-4fc3...@x25g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 6, 3:35 pm, gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 6, 1:32 pm, gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 6, 7:28 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I don't recall ever having seen this recording before:
>
> > >http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=497949&album_g...
Sava Savanovic
> Interestingly, the 1954 performance also has
> been miscredited to Dimitri Mitropoulos and mis-dated as 1955 on a
> 1980s Grandi Concerti LP issue. As with sources of a Bruckner 9th
> dated 1950 (given a week before or after the Mahler), I have begun to
> question whether or not either work exists on recordings made from
> these concerts, except for the possibility of private "in-house"
> recorded sources.
>
> Steve Reveyoso
I'm not that familiar with Mitropoulos' discography, so is there a
'real' 1955 Mahler 1st by Mitropoulos.
Archipel released Mahler's 1st dated New York June 15, 1955 by
Mitropoulos, makes me curious could that be the same miscredited
Walter. Here it is:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berlioz-King-Lear-Rob-Mahler/dp/B000AYA1HI
Dontait...@aol.com
According to the Philharmonic repertoire listing in Howard Shanet's
"Philharmonic -- A History of New York's Orchestra" (Doubleday, 1975),
there was no Philharmonic performance of anything on June 15, 1955.
And Mahler's First Symphony wasn't played by the Philharmonic in
either the 1954-5 or 1955-6 seasons. So this date is phony.
Perhaps it is a live Walter performance from another year.
Another error and confusion from a CD merchant.
Don Tait
Sava Savanovic
Thanks for the info. It seems it might well be Walter. I haven't heard
the disc in question but movement timings (as given by amazon mp3
store) of 11:56, 6:05, 11:06, 18:22, especially that of the first
movement seem more in line with Walter's timings than Mitropoulos' who
took first movement at around 13-14 minutes both in 1940 and 1951.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-Berlioz-Ouvertures/dp/B002B5ESJG
Rugby
OT, but here is a cd of a solo piano version of the Mahler 1st , based
on a 4-hand arrangement by Walter :
http://www.propiano.com/cds-c10001.html
Rugby
Kip Williams
I have this (as a download). I've even listened to it, though not in a
sitting. No schlepping.
Kip W