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Wilhelm Kempff and Edwin Fischer
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Mr Ludwig van
Jul 12, 2018, 1:05:50 PM7/12/18
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For me, the perfect Beethoven's recordings have been, for years now, the Kempff's polydors of the 30's. The only objection with them is the scarcity of good transfers... the only which truly sounds good is the DG's transfer of the 1940's kreutzer sonate, only realeased on LP (can be downloaded at this blog: https://paulmichaelvonganski.wordpress.com/tag/kempff/).
I've listened the Dante's and APR's complete editions and I find both them deficient, although you can listen to them to give you an idea of it. However, there are some transfers on Youtube which sound better than the two labels mentioned, but still haven't the clearness of the DG's transfer from above. I don't know if some day a worthy edition of this cycle will be made ever. Which is really sad, since you cannot almost find any recording of a Beethoven's sonata which matchs Kempff in his comprehension and profundity of the work, specially in these early recordings...
When I am listening to one of these Kempff's recordings, I cannot imagine a better perfomance of the work I'm listening to. It's simply unimaginable. The only man in his time (and ever) who could surpasses Kempff was Edwin Fischer. If you like Furtwängler, you should know that these two were his favorites pianists...
There is a group of recordings (among them the live op.109 from 1952, the op.10/3 from 1948, or the Appassionata from the 1930's) by him which just BREAK the perfection of the Kempff's ones... and open the window to something even greater. To me they're the equivalent of the Furtwängler's wartime Beethoven's symphonies. Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
When you listen to some of the Fisher's recordings, you just realize that even the perfection is not definitive, the world doesn't end in the perfection. When I listen to some of the Fischer and Furtwängler's recordings I tend to think that they are unsurpassable, just definitive... but in this world nothing is definitive, there is something beyond the edge, there is always a possibility of surpassing, and this is something that brings you back the illusion of life...
That is for me the sense of listening and compare these two incredible pianists.
I've listened the Dante's and APR's complete editions and I find both them deficient, although you can listen to them to give you an idea of it. However, there are some transfers on Youtube which sound better than the two labels mentioned, but still haven't the clearness of the DG's transfer from above. I don't know if some day a worthy edition of this cycle will be made ever. Which is really sad, since you cannot almost find any recording of a Beethoven's sonata which matchs Kempff in his comprehension and profundity of the work, specially in these early recordings...
When I am listening to one of these Kempff's recordings, I cannot imagine a better perfomance of the work I'm listening to. It's simply unimaginable. The only man in his time (and ever) who could surpasses Kempff was Edwin Fischer. If you like Furtwängler, you should know that these two were his favorites pianists...
There is a group of recordings (among them the live op.109 from 1952, the op.10/3 from 1948, or the Appassionata from the 1930's) by him which just BREAK the perfection of the Kempff's ones... and open the window to something even greater. To me they're the equivalent of the Furtwängler's wartime Beethoven's symphonies. Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
When you listen to some of the Fisher's recordings, you just realize that even the perfection is not definitive, the world doesn't end in the perfection. When I listen to some of the Fischer and Furtwängler's recordings I tend to think that they are unsurpassable, just definitive... but in this world nothing is definitive, there is something beyond the edge, there is always a possibility of surpassing, and this is something that brings you back the illusion of life...
That is for me the sense of listening and compare these two incredible pianists.
HT
Jul 12, 2018, 2:01:59 PM7/12/18
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> That is for me the sense of listening and compare these two incredible pianists.
Henk
Bozo
Jul 12, 2018, 2:18:45 PM7/12/18
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>On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 12:05:50 PM UTC-5, Mr Ludwig van wrote:
>Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
>
Thanks. You may also enjoy ( surprisingly ? ) Ashkenazy playing Op.109 ca. 1974 on Decca lp originally :
>Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1DXX3gIzkM
howie...@btinternet.com
Jul 12, 2018, 3:09:00 PM7/12/18
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Frank Berger
Jul 12, 2018, 5:28:35 PM7/12/18
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howie...@btinternet.com
Jul 12, 2018, 5:33:42 PM7/12/18
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Frank Berger
Jul 12, 2018, 6:23:06 PM7/12/18
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drh8h
Jul 12, 2018, 9:07:12 PM7/12/18
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Andy Evans
Jul 13, 2018, 12:29:09 AM7/13/18
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I'm a huge fan of Kempff and Fischer but neither totally replace a few other pianists in each particular work. for instance Myra Hess and Egon Petri in the later sonatas. Best to take the sonatas separately since there are so many fine competing versions.
For Kempff, I love his Schubert sonatas to bits and for some reason I think they're better as a set than his Beethoven.
Fischer is wonderful in Beethoven. Try his Archduke as well. Very fine, though the recording isn't ideal.
For Kempff, I love his Schubert sonatas to bits and for some reason I think they're better as a set than his Beethoven.
Fischer is wonderful in Beethoven. Try his Archduke as well. Very fine, though the recording isn't ideal.
howie...@btinternet.com
Jul 13, 2018, 1:20:09 AM7/13/18
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I find Edward Fischer a very hit and miss pianist. He moves the music forward in a way which gives the impression of a great single minded intensity of purpose, and in Beethoven that’s fine. But I’ve never got on with his Bach, either WTC or concertos, which seem limited expressively to me, and too fast. Same for his Schumann and his late Brahms (solo). The Mozart concertos are ruined by his appalling romantic style cadenzas.
Re solo late Brahms, I have him playing op 117/1 and 2, and op 118/3. Is there more?
Re solo late Brahms, I have him playing op 117/1 and 2, and op 118/3. Is there more?
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Mr Ludwig van
Jul 13, 2018, 3:42:59 AM7/13/18
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El viernes, 13 de julio de 2018, 5:20:09 (UTC), howie...@btinternet.com escribió:
> I find Edward Fischer a very hit and miss pianist. He moves the music forward in a way which gives the impression of a great single minded intensity of purpose, and in Beethoven that’s fine. But I’ve never got on with his Bach, either WTC or concertos, which seem limited expressively to me, and too fast. Same for his Schumann and his late Brahms (solo). The Mozart concertos are ruined by his appalling romantic style cadenzas.
>
> Re solo late Brahms, I have him playing op 117/1 and 2, and op 118/3. Is there more?
No, better listen to Backhaus for Brahms (Music & Arts CD-1132). I suspect that the four Brahms's pieces are the same by Conrad Hansen issued by Telefunken... and in regard to the Mozart concertos, I recommend the first 1946 lives (Nos. 22 & 25), and strongly recommend his live recording with Jochum of the No. 20. They recorded also the No. 24, but I haven't heard this one.
> I find Edward Fischer a very hit and miss pianist. He moves the music forward in a way which gives the impression of a great single minded intensity of purpose, and in Beethoven that’s fine. But I’ve never got on with his Bach, either WTC or concertos, which seem limited expressively to me, and too fast. Same for his Schumann and his late Brahms (solo). The Mozart concertos are ruined by his appalling romantic style cadenzas.
>
> Re solo late Brahms, I have him playing op 117/1 and 2, and op 118/3. Is there more?
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Andy Evans
Jul 13, 2018, 5:28:15 AM7/13/18
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> One can mix Kempff and Fischer in a pot,
> and one would still not get a Richter or
> an HJ Lim.
>
> dk
Would you get some cannibals to do this so you could eat the pianists afterwards?
> and one would still not get a Richter or
> an HJ Lim.
>
> dk
Would you get some cannibals to do this so you could eat the pianists afterwards?
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Herman
Jul 13, 2018, 12:47:57 PM7/13/18
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On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 6:45:10 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:
> Fischer was an amateur.
>
> dk
By today's standards Chopin and Beethoven were mostly composing schlock.
> On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:20:09 PM UTC-7, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> >
> > I find Edward Fischer a very hit and miss pianist.
>
> By current pianistic standards,
> >
> > I find Edward Fischer a very hit and miss pianist.
>
> Fischer was an amateur.
>
> dk
By today's standards Chopin and Beethoven were mostly composing schlock.
HT
Jul 13, 2018, 1:12:58 PM7/13/18
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> Otherwise, for those who did not notice,
> that was a paraphrase on Busoni's famous
> Lhevinne quip.
What was the quip?
Henk
graham
Jul 13, 2018, 2:50:37 PM7/13/18
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howie...@btinternet.com
Jul 13, 2018, 2:52:44 PM7/13/18
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Just a quick idea about Edwin Fischer. Zoltan Kocsis always reminds me of him, they seem to approach Mozart, for example, in a similar way.
mo...@cloud9.net
Jul 13, 2018, 10:17:12 PM7/13/18
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"I have tried to make beautiful music for most of my life. I can no longer do it." He closed the piano lid, and never played the piano again.
Mort Linder
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HT
Jul 14, 2018, 4:05:10 AM7/14/18
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> See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N95dVuG1YI
>
> BTW I am not much impressed by
> Lhevinne's Schumann Toccata.
Thanks! Interesting to read that the great pianists of the first half of the 20th century did know each other so well. Hofmann, Rosenthal, Gabrilowitsch, Godowsky and Petri present during one of Busoni's classes!
Good to hear Lhevinne again. His version of the toccata is brilliant in every respect. I have yet to hear a more interesting one. However, I can understand why you are not impressed. It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
Henk
>
> BTW I am not much impressed by
> Lhevinne's Schumann Toccata.
Thanks! Interesting to read that the great pianists of the first half of the 20th century did know each other so well. Hofmann, Rosenthal, Gabrilowitsch, Godowsky and Petri present during one of Busoni's classes!
Good to hear Lhevinne again. His version of the toccata is brilliant in every respect. I have yet to hear a more interesting one. However, I can understand why you are not impressed. It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
Henk
HT
Jul 14, 2018, 8:04:12 AM7/14/18
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> It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
Henk
Bozo
Jul 14, 2018, 8:30:07 AM7/14/18
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>On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 7:04:12 AM UTC-5, HT wrote:
> > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
As the YT poster notes, Lhevinne lets air and light into the music, especially last half of the work.
> > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
AB
Jul 14, 2018, 2:48:02 PM7/14/18
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AB
AB
Jul 14, 2018, 2:54:06 PM7/14/18
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AB
S888...@aol.com
Jul 14, 2018, 9:21:09 PM7/14/18
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HT
Jul 15, 2018, 10:13:01 AM7/15/18
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> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWrvqudmmU
Not available. If it's the Richter Moscow 1958 it is a great historical reproduction. I love young Richter almost as much as young Ashkenazy,
Henk
Frank Berger
Jul 15, 2018, 1:31:41 PM7/15/18
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Richter and Schumann and Profil you will find it everywhere. But the
date of the Schumann Toccata seems to be a mystery. I'm guessing it's
not even in the liner notes.
HT
Jul 15, 2018, 2:58:49 PM7/15/18
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> Why do you say not available?
Henk
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:11:15 PM7/15/18
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AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:12:53 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 7:30:29 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> Superb in every respect!
>
> dk
I have no'respect' for that kind of playing.
AB
>
> dk
I have no'respect' for that kind of playing.
AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:15:40 PM7/15/18
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> >
> > Could you cite an "insightful" version and maybe
> > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > lacking?
>
> favorite pre-conceived notions. No more,
> no less, and nothing else.
>
> dk
speak for yourself, dk!
AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:19:29 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, 15 July 2018 07:38:50 UTC-4, dk wrote:
>
> (while Arri is asleep!)
>
> dk
now that is great playing. virile, forceful and musical. he got sort of tired and a bit sloppy toward the end. piano bothered me a times
AB
> On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 6:21:09 PM UTC-7, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > >
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > >
> > > lacks insight into the music, treats the music
> > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> >
> > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> >
> > Could you cite an "insightful" version and maybe
> > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > lacking?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWrvqudmmU
> > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > lacking?
>
>
> (while Arri is asleep!)
>
> dk
now that is great playing. virile, forceful and musical. he got sort of tired and a bit sloppy toward the end. piano bothered me a times
AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:26:32 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, 15 July 2018 07:51:38 UTC-4, dk wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:38:50 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15MZKK6C3s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncHj0BKCps
>
> dk
Cziffra is a monster. such power, but again not musically convincing (little of his playing is) for me. No emotional depth... all on gthe surface
AB
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:38:50 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 6:21:09 PM UTC-7, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > >
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > >
> > > > lacks insight into the music, treats the music
> > > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > >
> > > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > >
> > > Could you cite an "insightful" version and maybe
> > > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > > lacking?
> >
> Here are a couple more:
> > > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > > lacking?
> >
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15MZKK6C3s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncHj0BKCps
>
> dk
Cziffra is a monster. such power, but again not musically convincing (little of his playing is) for me. No emotional depth... all on gthe surface
AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:30:09 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, 15 July 2018 07:56:39 UTC-4, dk wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LSJapMogk
>
> dk
technically great, but again no depth tonally or muscially. So far Richter is tops for me.
very 'sultry' photo!
AB
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:51:38 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:38:50 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:38:50 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 6:21:09 PM UTC-7, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > > >
> > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances
> > > > > > > so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > > >
> > > > > lacks insight into the music, treats the music
> > > > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > > >
> > > > > as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > > >
> > > > Could you cite an "insightful" version and maybe
> > > > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > > > lacking?
> > >
> > > > comment on what makes one insightful and the other
> > > > lacking?
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWrvqudmmU
> > >
> > > (while Arri is asleep!)
> >
> > Here are a couple more:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15MZKK6C3s
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncHj0BKCps
>
> And another girl:
> > >
> > > (while Arri is asleep!)
> >
> > Here are a couple more:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15MZKK6C3s
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncHj0BKCps
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LSJapMogk
>
> dk
technically great, but again no depth tonally or muscially. So far Richter is tops for me.
very 'sultry' photo!
AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:30:55 PM7/15/18
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AB
Frank Berger
Jul 15, 2018, 3:32:38 PM7/15/18
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of op. 7.
Bozo
Jul 15, 2018, 3:40:19 PM7/15/18
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> On 7/15/2018 2:58 PM, HT wrote:
> > Why do you say not available?
> > The link is not available in the Netherlands. I had to guess what it was. Is it the Richter Moscow 1958?
>On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 2:32:38 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> As I said, none of the references to that set divulge the recording date
> of op. 7.
I'm guessing Moscow, May 6 or June 5 , 1951 :
> As I said, none of the references to that set divulge the recording date
> of op. 7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7ic5Rav98
In any event, this Richter gives me a headache. I’ll take Lhevinne, although , for me, the Toccata not one of the Schumann works I usually choose to hear.
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AB
Jul 15, 2018, 3:57:20 PM7/15/18
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AB
Message has been deleted
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 4:00:35 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, 15 July 2018 15:58:07 UTC-4, dk wrote:
> I like the girls better. If I have to
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
>
> dk
Martha would never let you 'keep' her:-))
AB
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
>
> dk
Martha would never let you 'keep' her:-))
AB
S888...@aol.com
Jul 15, 2018, 4:23:20 PM7/15/18
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S888...@aol.com
Jul 15, 2018, 4:26:11 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:58:07 PM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:40:19 PM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:40:19 PM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> I like the girls better. If I have to
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
>
> dk
Of all the performances posted so far hers was the one that stood out to me as a clear favorite.
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
>
> dk
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Bozo
Jul 15, 2018, 4:49:24 PM7/15/18
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>On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> I like the girls better. If I have to
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
I still go with Lhevinne , more vin rose de Provence than Jagermeister.
> I like the girls better. If I have to
> keep just one, it would be Argerich.
HT
Jul 15, 2018, 5:44:28 PM7/15/18
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This one sounds horrible. Completely uninspired, pedestrian, unimaginative etc. If it were food I would eat it with long teeth, if I would eat it at all.
Henk
Henk
weary flake
Jul 15, 2018, 5:48:05 PM7/15/18
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Schumann & Brahms on the first CD as either of:
5/6/51 - Moscow - Live
30/4 & 1/5/59 - Studio
I thought this was studio until the applause at the end,
but maybe it's studio with an audience or studio with fake
applause tacked on?
The ambiguity is why recordings should be described with dates,
even on youtube.
As for which artist is better at insight into the Toccata we
need ggggg to help solve the riddle.
HT
Jul 15, 2018, 6:11:38 PM7/15/18
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> that comment is an insult to Richter!
It depends, Arri. Do you really believe that it is necessary to be a fan of Richter? I don't. He is one of the great pianists of the 20th century but l he's not in my top-10, probably not even in my top-20. Please, let me know if you think that there is at least one CD I shouldn't leave behind on my proverbial trip to a desert island. I cannot think of one. <g>
Henk
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 8:04:44 PM7/15/18
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AB
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 8:07:23 PM7/15/18
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On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:33:56 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
bad judgement!
>
> Try this for dessert:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKnPttBTUaQ
got indigestion:-)
AB
>
> dk
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 1:26:11 PM UTC-7, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:58:07 PM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:40:19 PM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> > > > > On 7/15/2018 2:58 PM, HT wrote:
> > > > > > Why do you say not available?
> > > > > > The link is not available in the Netherlands. I had to guess what it was. Is it the Richter Moscow 1958?
> > > > >On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 2:32:38 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > > > As I said, none of the references to that set divulge the recording date
> > > > > of op. 7.
> > > >
> > > > I'm guessing Moscow, May 6 or June 5 , 1951 :
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7ic5Rav98
> > > >
> > > > In any event, this Richter gives me a headache.
> > > > I’ll take Lhevinne, although , for me, the
> > > > Toccata not one of the Schumann works I
> > > > usually choose to hear.
> > >
> > > I like the girls better. If I have to
> > > keep just one, it would be Argerich.
> >
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:58:07 PM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:40:19 PM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> > > > > On 7/15/2018 2:58 PM, HT wrote:
> > > > > > Why do you say not available?
> > > > > > The link is not available in the Netherlands. I had to guess what it was. Is it the Richter Moscow 1958?
> > > > >On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 2:32:38 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > > > As I said, none of the references to that set divulge the recording date
> > > > > of op. 7.
> > > >
> > > > I'm guessing Moscow, May 6 or June 5 , 1951 :
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7ic5Rav98
> > > >
> > > > In any event, this Richter gives me a headache.
> > > > I’ll take Lhevinne, although , for me, the
> > > > Toccata not one of the Schumann works I
> > > > usually choose to hear.
> > >
> > > I like the girls better. If I have to
> > > keep just one, it would be Argerich.
> >
> > Of all the performances posted so far
> > hers was the one that stood out to me
> > as a clear favorite.
>
> Good ears! ;-)
> > hers was the one that stood out to me
> > as a clear favorite.
>
bad judgement!
>
> Try this for dessert:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKnPttBTUaQ
got indigestion:-)
AB
>
> dk
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AB
Jul 15, 2018, 8:15:25 PM7/15/18
to
seriously, Ashkenazi was a fine pianist in his prime, but hardly great. at his best, Richter was a super pianist. ask Glen Gould! ask any professional pianist.
of course, only my opinion.
Arri
AB
Jul 15, 2018, 8:18:51 PM7/15/18
to
On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 8:11:57 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> Boy, are you overly sensitive!
>
> Try taking your music with Zantac! ;-)
>
> dk
I prefer Fentenyl (sp?) :=))
AB
>
> Try taking your music with Zantac! ;-)
>
> dk
I prefer Fentenyl (sp?) :=))
AB
Bozo
Jul 15, 2018, 8:22:51 PM7/15/18
to
>On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:48:05 PM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
> The Toccata is listed in the booklet of the Profil 12 CD set
> Schumann & Brahms on the first CD as either of:
> 5/6/51 - Moscow - Live
> 30/4 & 1/5/59 - Studio
> I thought this was studio until the applause at the end,
> but maybe it's studio with an audience or studio with fake
> applause tacked on?
In the 1958 YT live Moscow ( says Koch/Parnassus ) , there is a shout from the audience at the end. In the 1951 YT live ( says it's a Naxos/Profil) there is applause, but no shout. ( But, Stalin was still alive in 1951 ? ) . The 1951 YT has an " announcement " at the beginning which seems to suggest a program beginning with the Schumann and that also included some Liszt ( I DO NOT speak Russian.) The Russian cyrillic sentence in the 1951 YT post also says ( per Google translator ) : " In that concert, Richter repeated Tokkata encore." So, perhaps my guess is correct, he played the Schumann to start , repeated it as an encore at the end of the 1951 recital. The 1959 may have been in a Warsaw studio as this Naxos/Profil YT states a May , 1959 recording date which tracks with the Profil 12 cd booklet 30/4 and 1/5/59 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7qJIkD7sEY
> The Toccata is listed in the booklet of the Profil 12 CD set
> Schumann & Brahms on the first CD as either of:
> 5/6/51 - Moscow - Live
> 30/4 & 1/5/59 - Studio
> I thought this was studio until the applause at the end,
> but maybe it's studio with an audience or studio with fake
> applause tacked on?
As noted earlier, all 3 give me a headache.
Message has been deleted
S888...@aol.com
Jul 16, 2018, 2:33:36 AM7/16/18
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Message has been deleted
Herman
Jul 16, 2018, 4:23:51 AM7/16/18
to
These piano discussions are so predictable.
The only thing that changes (once per decade) is the long-haired "girl" DK is pushing relentlessly, only to vanish without a trace ten years later.
The only thing that changes (once per decade) is the long-haired "girl" DK is pushing relentlessly, only to vanish without a trace ten years later.
Message has been deleted
HT
Jul 16, 2018, 5:09:26 AM7/16/18
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> ... Richter was a super pianist. ask Glen Gould!
Arri, voodoo practices are unnecessary. I have no problem with the general belief that Richter is a super pianist. For me, it is simply not enough. I can do without the 'super', but not without a musician's talent to hold my attention for the time it takes to play a Schumann toccata (for example).
Henk
Arri, voodoo practices are unnecessary. I have no problem with the general belief that Richter is a super pianist. For me, it is simply not enough. I can do without the 'super', but not without a musician's talent to hold my attention for the time it takes to play a Schumann toccata (for example).
Henk
Message has been deleted
HT
Jul 16, 2018, 9:49:05 AM7/16/18
to
> Judging from your collected writings,
> Richter was no Ashkenazy! ;-)
No, he was not! It is not something I hold against him, but it is a problem nevertheless. The only CD/LP I really liked was his version of Schumann's short(er) pieces for piano and orchestra. That's a recording I would take with me to a desert island - because of the composer as wel as the performer.
Henk
> Richter was no Ashkenazy! ;-)
No, he was not! It is not something I hold against him, but it is a problem nevertheless. The only CD/LP I really liked was his version of Schumann's short(er) pieces for piano and orchestra. That's a recording I would take with me to a desert island - because of the composer as wel as the performer.
Henk
Ricardo Jimenez
Jul 16, 2018, 10:42:08 AM7/16/18
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On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 00:36:16 -0700 (PDT), dk <dan....@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> > if you compare the tone of an upright piano to a concert grand, then the upright would have a shallow sound...
>
>>
>
>dk
That certainly is not the problem with the Youtube videos of HJ Lim.
For some reason, I don't know if it is the pedaling, piano or
recording technique, the decay of the piano tone takes too long,
making a mushy sound. Still, I love her WTC, even though the piano
sound is so different than say Gould's crisp, fast decay tone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8MA0miKxA
Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
wrote:
>> > if you compare the tone of an upright piano to a concert grand, then the upright would have a shallow sound...
>
>>
>> So HJ Lim makes a concert grand sound like an upright?
>
>Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjQyoD3kGwA&t=27s
>
>
>dk
That certainly is not the problem with the Youtube videos of HJ Lim.
For some reason, I don't know if it is the pedaling, piano or
recording technique, the decay of the piano tone takes too long,
making a mushy sound. Still, I love her WTC, even though the piano
sound is so different than say Gould's crisp, fast decay tone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8MA0miKxA
Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
Bozo
Jul 16, 2018, 10:46:43 AM7/16/18
to
>On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:48:05 PM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
> The Toccata is listed in the booklet of the Profil 12 CD set
> Schumann & Brahms on the first CD
Thanks again for the info.
> Schumann & Brahms on the first CD
Does the Profil booklet give dates, venues, studio or live, for the Schumann Papillons, Sonata # 2 , and Faschingsschwank aus Wien Op.26 on the cd's ? TIA.
Frank Berger
Jul 16, 2018, 11:33:39 AM7/16/18
to
Papillions was recorded 10/21/1962, live, in Florence, Italy.
Sonata # 2 was recorded 6/8/1961, live, Moscow Conservatory.
OP. 26 was recorded 6/1/1962, live, Vienna.
Bozo
Jul 16, 2018, 12:07:30 PM7/16/18
to
>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 10:33:39 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>According to Discogs.com:
Thanks. Appears the Sonata and Op.26 on the Profil set were not the live performances of those 2 works in 1962 in Italy on the Angel lp " Richter in Italy " , consistent with Profil advising some of its tracks were previously unpublished lives.
>According to Discogs.com:
Thanks. Appears the Sonata and Op.26 on the Profil set were not the live performances of those 2 works in 1962 in Italy on the Angel lp " Richter in Italy " , consistent with Profil advising some of its tracks were previously unpublished lives.
Message has been deleted
S888...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2018, 1:03:17 AM7/17/18
to
S888...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2018, 1:10:34 AM7/17/18
to
On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 11:33:36 PM UTC-7, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 5:04:44 PM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:23:20 PM UTC-4, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:11:15 PM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 9:21:09 PM UTC-4, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Henk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > lacks insight into the music, treats the music as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > > > > >
> > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 5:04:44 PM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:23:20 PM UTC-4, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:11:15 PM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 9:21:09 PM UTC-4, S888...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:54:06 AM UTC-7, AB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:04:12 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > > > It lacks what makes HJLim's performances so special: incoherence and extravagance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TbyEY5WRU
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Henk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > lacks insight into the music, treats the music as an excersize...... technically very impressive
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Could you cite an "insightful" version and maybe comment on what makes one insightful and the other lacking?
> > > > >
> > > > > perhaps not a good word 'insightful'..... a better would be 'superficial', both musically and tonally (shallow sound)
> > > > >
> > > > > AB
> > > >
> > > > What on earth is "shallow tone" as it pertains to piano? What makes one performance of this particular piece more or less "superficial?"
> > >
> > > if you compare the tone of an upright piano to a concert grand, then the upright would have a shallow sound...
>
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > perhaps not a good word 'insightful'..... a better would be 'superficial', both musically and tonally (shallow sound)
> > > > >
> > > > > AB
> > > >
> > > > What on earth is "shallow tone" as it pertains to piano? What makes one performance of this particular piece more or less "superficial?"
> > >
> > > if you compare the tone of an upright piano to a concert grand, then the upright would have a shallow sound...
>
> >
> > So HJ Lim makes a concert grand sound like an upright?
>
Fantastic performance! but that isn't HJ Lim.....
>
Message has been deleted
S888...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2018, 3:37:30 AM7/17/18
to
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 12:34:21 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
>
> dk
actually I thought something did smell funny....
> > Fantastic performance! but that isn't HJ Lim.....
>
> No scents of humor.....
>
>
> dk
actually I thought something did smell funny....
Ricardo Jimenez
Jul 17, 2018, 1:20:07 PM7/17/18
to
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT), dk <dan....@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 7:42:08 AM UTC-7, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>Steinways the concert halls had available. The mushy
>sound is a result of the pedaling required to produce
>a reasonable sound in large halls from Steinways. She
>is an official Yamaha artist, and the studio recordings
>capture her touch far more faithfully.
>
>dk
The Beethoven Sonatas sound is just as bad as the YT sound. However,
her Ravel/Scriabin disc has gorgeous sound (and performances). As far
as I know, that is all there is for studio recordings. How was the
concert in Neuchātel?
wrote:
>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 7:42:08 AM UTC-7, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 00:36:16 -0700 (PDT), dk <dan....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That certainly is not the problem with the Youtube videos of
>> HJ Lim. For some reason, I don't know if it is the pedaling,
>> piano or recording technique, the decay of the piano tone
>> takes too long, making a mushy sound.
>
>Most of her live performances on YT were on whatever
>> wrote:
>>
>> That certainly is not the problem with the Youtube videos of
>> HJ Lim. For some reason, I don't know if it is the pedaling,
>> piano or recording technique, the decay of the piano tone
>> takes too long, making a mushy sound.
>
>Steinways the concert halls had available. The mushy
>sound is a result of the pedaling required to produce
>a reasonable sound in large halls from Steinways. She
>is an official Yamaha artist, and the studio recordings
>capture her touch far more faithfully.
>
>> Still, I love her WTC, even though the piano sound is
>> so different than say Gould's crisp, fast decay tone.
>
>Let's not start a civil war! ;-)
>> Still, I love her WTC, even though the piano sound is
>> so different than say Gould's crisp, fast decay tone.
>
>
>> Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
>
>Yes, two months ago in Neuchātel.
>> Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
>
>
>dk
The Beethoven Sonatas sound is just as bad as the YT sound. However,
her Ravel/Scriabin disc has gorgeous sound (and performances). As far
as I know, that is all there is for studio recordings. How was the
concert in Neuchātel?
Bozo
Jul 17, 2018, 5:17:23 PM7/17/18
to
>On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 12:20:07 PM UTC-5, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> The Beethoven Sonatas sound is just as bad as the YT sound. However,
> her Ravel/Scriabin disc has gorgeous sound (and performances).
Pedaling that "works" in Ravel,Scriabin, does not work in Beethoven, as a smudged note in a Rachmaninoff concerto may be less noticeable than a smudge in Mozart ?
> The Beethoven Sonatas sound is just as bad as the YT sound. However,
> her Ravel/Scriabin disc has gorgeous sound (and performances).
Al Eisner
Jul 17, 2018, 5:35:10 PM7/17/18
to
not needed for listening to music. ;)
--
Al Eisner
Bozo
Jul 17, 2018, 6:23:22 PM7/17/18
to
>On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 4:35:10 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
> So far I've used Zantac only for reading rmcr posts,
I much prefer cheap shiraz, ample supply there in California.
> So far I've used Zantac only for reading rmcr posts,
Message has been deleted
Herman
Jul 18, 2018, 4:47:37 AM7/18/18
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On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:33:13 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:
> Saint-Saëns PC 2.
>
> dk
You're sure you really were there?
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 10:20:07 AM UTC-7, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> >
> > >> Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
> > >
> > > Yes, two months ago in Neuchātel.
> >
> >
> > >> Have you heard her live yet, Dan?
> > >
> > > Yes, two months ago in Neuchātel.
> >
> > How was the concert in Neuchātel?
>
> Wonderful pianist, so-so orchestra.
>
> Saint-Saëns PC 2.
>
> dk
You're sure you really were there?
Herman
Jul 18, 2018, 4:58:26 AM7/18/18
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:47:37 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
> You're sure you really were there?
it looks like an assessment anyone can make sight unseen.
>
> You're sure you really were there?
AB
Jul 18, 2018, 3:53:13 PM7/18/18
to
if you keep on making these kinds of comments,people will assess you, sight unseen:-))
AB
Théo Amon
Jul 18, 2018, 3:56:52 PM7/18/18
to
Em quinta-feira, 12 de julho de 2018 14:05:50 UTC-3, Mr Ludwig van escreveu:
> For me, the perfect Beethoven's recordings have been, for years now, the Kempff's polydors of the 30's. The only objection with them is the scarcity of good transfers... the only which truly sounds good is the DG's transfer of the 1940's kreutzer sonate, only realeased on LP (can be downloaded at this blog: https://paulmichaelvonganski.wordpress.com/tag/kempff/).
>
> I've listened the Dante's and APR's complete editions and I find both them deficient, although you can listen to them to give you an idea of it. However, there are some transfers on Youtube which sound better than the two labels mentioned, but still haven't the clearness of the DG's transfer from above. I don't know if some day a worthy edition of this cycle will be made ever. Which is really sad, since you cannot almost find any recording of a Beethoven's sonata which matchs Kempff in his comprehension and profundity of the work, specially in these early recordings...
>
> When I am listening to one of these Kempff's recordings, I cannot imagine a better perfomance of the work I'm listening to. It's simply unimaginable. The only man in his time (and ever) who could surpasses Kempff was Edwin Fischer. If you like Furtwängler, you should know that these two were his favorites pianists...
>
> There is a group of recordings (among them the live op.109 from 1952, the op.10/3 from 1948, or the Appassionata from the 1930's) by him which just BREAK the perfection of the Kempff's ones... and open the window to something even greater. To me they're the equivalent of the Furtwängler's wartime Beethoven's symphonies. Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
>
> When you listen to some of the Fisher's recordings, you just realize that even the perfection is not definitive, the world doesn't end in the perfection. When I listen to some of the Fischer and Furtwängler's recordings I tend to think that they are unsurpassable, just definitive... but in this world nothing is definitive, there is something beyond the edge, there is always a possibility of surpassing, and this is something that brings you back the illusion of life...
>
> That is for me the sense of listening and compare these two incredible pianists.
I've been listening to Kempff's 1930s quasi-trasversal of the Beethoven sonatas, and amazing they are...! His prewar Hammerklavier became my all-time favorite. Fierce, virile playing without compromising the poetics. His Adagio will haunt you like Arrau's, and his final fugue (no editing at the time...) is impressive by any standard.
I have ordered the CDs (this double set with the late sonatas, the 4-CD set with the remainder of his 78s Beethoven sonatas, and the double-set with all Beethoven concerti save no. 2). This is a must. And after you get used to the hiss, the strong, concentrated sound of APR's transfer compares quite favorably with his 60s stereo cycle, whose thin sound has always annoyed me.
> For me, the perfect Beethoven's recordings have been, for years now, the Kempff's polydors of the 30's. The only objection with them is the scarcity of good transfers... the only which truly sounds good is the DG's transfer of the 1940's kreutzer sonate, only realeased on LP (can be downloaded at this blog: https://paulmichaelvonganski.wordpress.com/tag/kempff/).
>
> I've listened the Dante's and APR's complete editions and I find both them deficient, although you can listen to them to give you an idea of it. However, there are some transfers on Youtube which sound better than the two labels mentioned, but still haven't the clearness of the DG's transfer from above. I don't know if some day a worthy edition of this cycle will be made ever. Which is really sad, since you cannot almost find any recording of a Beethoven's sonata which matchs Kempff in his comprehension and profundity of the work, specially in these early recordings...
>
> When I am listening to one of these Kempff's recordings, I cannot imagine a better perfomance of the work I'm listening to. It's simply unimaginable. The only man in his time (and ever) who could surpasses Kempff was Edwin Fischer. If you like Furtwängler, you should know that these two were his favorites pianists...
>
> There is a group of recordings (among them the live op.109 from 1952, the op.10/3 from 1948, or the Appassionata from the 1930's) by him which just BREAK the perfection of the Kempff's ones... and open the window to something even greater. To me they're the equivalent of the Furtwängler's wartime Beethoven's symphonies. Just listen to his op.109, and tell me they'rent the most beautiful sounds ever heard on earth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdB1-upYq8
>
> When you listen to some of the Fisher's recordings, you just realize that even the perfection is not definitive, the world doesn't end in the perfection. When I listen to some of the Fischer and Furtwängler's recordings I tend to think that they are unsurpassable, just definitive... but in this world nothing is definitive, there is something beyond the edge, there is always a possibility of surpassing, and this is something that brings you back the illusion of life...
>
> That is for me the sense of listening and compare these two incredible pianists.
I've been listening to Kempff's 1930s quasi-trasversal of the Beethoven sonatas, and amazing they are...! His prewar Hammerklavier became my all-time favorite. Fierce, virile playing without compromising the poetics. His Adagio will haunt you like Arrau's, and his final fugue (no editing at the time...) is impressive by any standard.
I have ordered the CDs (this double set with the late sonatas, the 4-CD set with the remainder of his 78s Beethoven sonatas, and the double-set with all Beethoven concerti save no. 2). This is a must. And after you get used to the hiss, the strong, concentrated sound of APR's transfer compares quite favorably with his 60s stereo cycle, whose thin sound has always annoyed me.
drh8h
Jul 18, 2018, 5:08:41 PM7/18/18
to
HT
Jul 18, 2018, 5:28:12 PM7/18/18
to
> I've been listening to Kempff's 1930s quasi-trasversal of the Beethoven sonatas, and amazing they are...! His prewar Hammerklavier became my all-time favorite. Fierce, virile playing without compromising the poetics. His Adagio will haunt you like Arrau's, and his final fugue (no editing at the time...) is impressive by any standard.
Henk
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
AB
Jul 18, 2018, 8:04:54 PM7/18/18
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 6:30:21 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> We already know he is a fiddler,
> don't we? No octaves.... ;-)
>
> dk
does Herman do double stops??
Arri
> don't we? No octaves.... ;-)
>
> dk
does Herman do double stops??
Arri
Bob Harper
Jul 19, 2018, 1:24:29 AM7/19/18
to
Bob Harper
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