correct pronunciation of Strauss opera?
aar...@pacbell.net
flee dermouse
or
flay dermouse
best,
Aaron
Steven de Mena
And is is spelled Die Fledermaus. you added an extra "i" in there.
Not to be picky but one says "Strauss opera" one usually is referring to
Richard Strauss. Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
Steve
<aar...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:1126993808.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
alanwa...@aol.com
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Dan Koren
news:6vadncm8T_B...@comcast.com...
> The second one.
>
> And is is spelled Die Fledermaus. you added an extra "i" in there.
>
> Not to be picky but one says "Strauss opera" one usually is referring to
> Richard Strauss. Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
>
Actually, soaperetta.
dk
Larry Rinkel
>
> And is is spelled Die Fledermaus. you added an extra "i" in there.
>
> Not to be picky but one says "Strauss opera" one usually is referring to
> Richard Strauss. Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
>
As the German word "der Flieder" means a lilac bush, "die Fliedermaus" would
be perfectly correct if the OP were referring to a mouse that haunts that
particular species of plant. Wagner does allude to the lilac in the
Fliedermonolog in Act Two of Die Meistersinger; however, he makes no mention
of said mouse. Tchaikovsky on the other hand includes a Maus but not a
Flieder in Act One of The Nutcracker.
Raymond Hall
'ie' is virtually always 'eee' in German.
Ray H
Taree
Larry Rinkel
news:Xns96D512772A3...@62.153.159.134...
> "Larry Rinkel" <L...@optunderline.net> schrieb:
>
>> As the German word "der Flieder" means a lilac bush, "die
>> Fliedermaus" would be perfectly correct if the OP were
>> referring to a mouse that haunts that particular species of
>> plant. Wagner does allude to the lilac in the
>> Fliedermonolog in Act Two of Die Meistersinger; however, he
>> makes no mention of said mouse. Tchaikovsky on the other
>> hand includes a Maus but not a Flieder in Act One of The
>> Nutcracker.
>
> use of Flieder is obsolete.
Three on-line dictionaries I consulted for verification all translate
Flieder as lilac-bush.
Steven de Mena
"Raymond Hall" <rayt...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:l62Xe.51324$FA3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
He mis-spelled it. There is no "ie" in Fledermaus.
Steve
david...@aol.com
>Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
But Strauss's operettas, if that is what they are, are far more
substantial than what many Americans think of as operettas. In any
case, Johann Strauss was a better composer than Richard. ("If Richard,
then Wagner. If Strauss, then Johann. If Schlagobers [ballet by
Richard Strauss],. then Dehmel's [Viennese pastry shop].") At least
Richard had the good sense to love Johann's music.
Gustav Mahler had to call Fledermaus an opera in order to justify
programming it at the Staatsoper: he loved the piece. But then
Wagner, Brahms, Mahler, Wolf, Richard Strauss, Schoenberg, Webern, and
Berg all loved his music.
-david gable
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
Andrew T. Kay
> >Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
>
> But Strauss's operettas, if that is what they are, are far more
> substantial than what many Americans think of as operettas. In any
> case, Johann Strauss was a better composer than Richard. ("If Richard,
> then Wagner. If Strauss, then Johann. If Schlagobers [ballet by
> Richard Strauss],. then Dehmel's [Viennese pastry shop].") At least
> Richard had the good sense to love Johann's music.
Though the bad sense not to like Verdi's. In later life he even turned
against FALSTAFF, apparently. (R. Strauss in 1895: "[I am] unable to
find words to describe the extraordinary beauty of FALSTAFF or to
express my gratitude for this re-birth of the intellect." 1949:
"Strauss was surprised when I told him that I loved Verdi's FALSTAFF;
he was mainly a Mozart and Wagner man himself. I understand that when
he was younger he said that FALSTAFF was a great masterpiece, but he
must have had second thoughts in later years." [first quote courtesy of
Budden, second from Georg Solti's memoir]).
Todd K
Daria Wieczorek
> "Theresa" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D512772A3...@62.153.159.134...
>>The Flieder in Meistersinger is in fact an elder. But AFAIK this
>>use of Flieder is obsolete.
> Three on-line dictionaries I consulted for verification all translate
> Flieder as lilac-bush.
And elder is Holunder in German. But ... :) - Holunder is (was?) also called
Schwarzer Flieder (black lilac - which sounds funny in English I admit) or
just Flieder. Or even Elder for that matter:
http://www.naturverstand.at/lexikon.php/database/plants/53.html
http://www.zauber-pflanzen.de/sambucus.htm
(both pages are in German but you can just have a look at the list of synonyms
for Holunder),
Daria
Johannes Roehl
That's for all I know the current use...
As a botanically challenged native speaker I was not aware that the
usage in Meistersinger might have been referring to another plant.
Isn't there the probably obsolete word "flittermouse" for "bat"?
I really like "Il pipistrello"
Johannes
Gareth Williams
> The second one.
Not quite. "Flay dermaus" is only an anglicised approximation of the
German - the first "e" is not a diphthong ("ay") but a "flat" vowel not
usually used in English speech, except in parts of North-East England,
Scotland and Wales.
--
Kind regards, Gareth Williams
Matthew Silverstein
> But Strauss's operettas, if that is what they are, are far more
> substantial than what many Americans think of as operettas. In any
> case, Johann Strauss was a better composer than Richard. ("If Richard,
> then Wagner. If Strauss, then Johann. If Schlagobers [ballet by
> Richard Strauss],. then Dehmel's [Viennese pastry shop].")
I believe it is Cafe-Konditerei Demel, not Dehmel.
Matty
Edward A. Cowan
And I like an expression using that word: "tempo di pipistrello volante
dal inferno" ("tempo di 'bat out of hell'")... <g> --E.A.C.
Torgny Gustafsson
$.f7pod8lm...@40tude.net:
If that is what it is, then it is Konditorei, not Konditerei.
It appears they call themselves "Zuckerbäckerei Ch. Demel's Söhne", they
are on the web: http://www.demel.at/index_flash.htm
End of nit-picking.
TG
david...@aol.com
Todd,
Somewhere there's a remark from Richard Strauss about Falstaff and a
certain indebtedness to Falstaff on the part of Capriccio. He was
defending something in Capriccio by invoking the authority of Falstaff.
Can't recall it though.
Stravinsky's opinion of Falstaff went the other direction. In The
Poetics of Music he says, "If Falstaff isn't Wagner's best opera it
isn't Verdi's either." But then, it is precisely the traditional
Italian opera of Rigoletto that he's holding up as a superior
alternative to Wagnerism in the Poetics.
Somewhere in the Craft/Stravinsky conversation books, Craft asks what
statements Stravinsky'd made that he'd like to retract, and the
Falstaff remark is one of two he retracts.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
>I believe it is Cafe-Konditerei Demel, not Dehmel.
Merci donc. What do we francophiles know about Deutsch?
-david gable
david...@aol.com
Yes, that's good. I also like the French title for Dutchman: Le
vaisseau fantome. (I don't use diacritical marks in Google because the
result is often gobbledy-google, but there should be an accent
circonflexe over the O.) The translations of Belasco's title, The Girl
of the Golden west, varies in France and Italy: La fanciulla del West
becomes La fille du Far West, "West" and "Far West" being the English
terms borrowed by Italilan and French respectively to refer to the
American West.
-david gable
Johannes Roehl
>
>>I believe it is Cafe-Konditerei Demel, not Dehmel.
>
> Merci donc. What do we francophiles know about Deutsch?
Maybe more than you are aware of. First, it looks actually more
idiomatic with the "h", second the poem (IMO an awful piece of kitsch)
Schoenberg's "Verklaerte Nacht" is based on was written by some Richard
_Dehmel_, so you may have read that name somewhere.
Johannes
Jon A Conrad
And the German title is Das Maedchen aus dem goldenen Westen -- "out of"
the West, as if we were catching her on a visit to New York.
Alternative titles from other languages are fun: Madama Butterfly
generally kept the same title in German scores (and opera houses, when
most of them did everything in German) -- but I've seen an old one for
"Die kleine Frau Schmetterling." One that still seems to be commonly used
(and for a title that stays in Italian for English-speakers) is Bajazzo.
That usually causes a head-scratch or two before foreigners manage to
translate it back to Pagliacci. And a surprising character name is Golo --
you know, the guy in Pelleas. I've seen it listed on several bios in
German.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
con...@udel.edu
Christopher Webber
>First, it looks actually more idiomatic with the "h", second the poem
>(IMO an awful piece of kitsch) Schoenberg's "Verklaerte Nacht" is based
>on was written by some Richard _Dehmel_
Kitsch or not, Zemlinsky and Bax (amongst many other composers) set
Richard Dehmel's poems during the first third of the 20th century,
although the Schoenberg connection is best known to music lovers now.
If we think of Klimt as kitsch, then maybe Dehmel is too. At any rate
he's a compelling writer, and was certainly amongst the leading spirits
of the day. Wedekind called him "the greatest German poet of our time".
His dream and fantasy-nightmare worlds still hold power to stir, and
there's a rather good site devoted to him at
http://www.richard-dehmel.de
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK.
http://www.zarzuela.net
Larry Rinkel
"Jon A Conrad" <con...@intention.nss.udel.edu> wrote in message
news:dgkmm4$826$1...@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
> And a surprising character name is Golo --
> you know, the guy in Pelleas. I've seen it listed on several bios in
> German.
Doesn't he also turn up in "Die kleine Frau Schmetterling," given that the
Japanese turn Western "Ls" into "Rs"?
Larry Rinkel
"Christopher Webber" <c...@zarzuela.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CkStO2GM...@zarzuela.co.uk...
> Johannes Roehl <parr...@web.de> writes:
>>First, it looks actually more idiomatic with the "h", second the poem (IMO
>>an awful piece of kitsch) Schoenberg's "Verklaerte Nacht" is based on was
>>written by some Richard _Dehmel_
>
> Kitsch or not, Zemlinsky and Bax (amongst many other composers) set
> Richard Dehmel's poems during the first third of the 20th century,
> although the Schoenberg connection is best known to music lovers now.
>
> If we think of Klimt as kitsch, then maybe Dehmel is too. At any rate he's
> a compelling writer, and was certainly amongst the leading spirits of the
> day. Wedekind called him "the greatest German poet of our time". His dream
> and fantasy-nightmare worlds still hold power to stir, and there's a
> rather good site devoted to him at
> http://www.richard-dehmel.de
> --
Yes, but can he make a Sacher Torte?
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:uHlXe.8099$IC3....@fe12.lga:
> "Christopher Webber" <c...@zarzuela.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:CkStO2GM...@zarzuela.co.uk...
>
>> If we think of Klimt as kitsch, then maybe Dehmel is too. At any rate
>> he's a compelling writer, and was certainly amongst the leading spirits
>> of the day. Wedekind called him "the greatest German poet of our time".
>> His dream and fantasy-nightmare worlds still hold power to stir, and
>> there's a rather good site devoted to him at
>> http://www.richard-dehmel.de
>
> Yes, but can he make a Sacher Torte?
If only Paul Sacher had been a lawyer....
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Brendan R. Wehrung
So only a Scot knows how to pronounce it correctly?
Brendan
--
Larry Rinkel
"Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:dglgfg$l8l$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca...
same sound used in the first syllable of the German word "Fledermaus." "Ay"
is a diphthong as used in the English word "I" (the sound is actually "ah +
ee"), and in the equivalent German spelling "ei," as in "frei."
Johannes Roehl
> "Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> news:dglgfg$l8l$1...@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>
>>Gareth Williams (gar...@nospam.com) writes:
>>
>>>On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:04:33 -0700, Steven de Mena wrote:
>>>
>>>>The second one.
>>>
>>>Not quite. "Flay dermaus" is only an anglicised approximation of the
>>>German - the first "e" is not a diphthong ("ay") but a "flat" vowel not
>>>usually used in English speech, except in parts of North-East England,
>>>Scotland and Wales.
>>
>>So only a Scot knows how to pronounce it correctly?
>>
>>Brendan
>>--
>>
> "Ay" is *not* a diphthong as used in the English word "flay," or as in the
> same sound used in the first syllable of the German word "Fledermaus." "Ay"
> is a diphthong as used in the English word "I" (the sound is actually "ah +
> ee"), and in the equivalent German spelling "ei," as in "frei."
It's actually not too hard, the "e" in "Fledermaus" is pronounced about
the same way as the "ee" in "Beethoven" or the "eh" in "Sehnsucht", but
then many speakers of englisch, say "Baythoven" ("ay as in "bay" and
"say", not as in "aye, aye, sir"
Johannes
Jon A Conrad
>>Most would call this a "Johann Strauss operetta".
>But Strauss's operettas, if that is what they are, are far more
>substantial than what many Americans think of as operettas.
If we're going by majority opinion, "many Americans" think precisely
nothing about operettas -- they don't know the term, or if they have heard
it, they don't care except as a term of dismissal.
Operetta is a roomy term, and can encompass J. Strauss and Lehar just as
well as Offenbach/Chabrier/Messager/Yvain, Sullivan/Coward/Novello,
Herbert/Friml/Romberg.
>In any case, Johann Strauss was a better composer than Richard.
Each could do things the other couldn't. Richard was certainly better than
Johann at one skill that would have served the latter well: cajoling
librettists into providing well-constructed librettos. (DIE FLEDERMAUS
being the glorious exception; but there are problems with Johann's other
stage works that well-meaning revisionists have been struggling with ever
since.)
Christopher Webber
>Operetta is a roomy term, and can encompass J. Strauss and Lehar just
>as well as Offenbach/Chabrier/Messager/Yvain, Sullivan/Coward/Novello,
>Herbert/Friml/Romberg.
Although of course by no means all of these composers / writers called
their major pieces "operetta" or its French near-equivalent "operette."
Without getting into the semantic niceties of definition, Sullivan for
example never wrote anything he called an operetta in his life. He
mainly composed comic operas - or self-styled Savoy operas, with Gilbert
- and stage works with a variety of other titles, not to mention that
splendid full-dress opera "Ivanhoe". He did not like this term
"operetta", and nor do I.
And for why? Well, "operetta" straightway implies a diminution of opera,
although of course the great masterpieces of music theatre are anything
but diminished versions of anything else. It's also far too "roomy" to
give us any useful clue as to what might conceivably yoke Messager's
"Fortunio", Lehar's "Giuditta", Sullivan's "The Yeoman of the Guard" and
Lecuona's "Maria la O" into one genre.
I sometimes wonder where this "operetta" idea came from? Probably the
ghastly opera snobs who couldn't - and can't - bear the abrasive reality
of the spoken word or popular life intruding into their post-prandial
musical confectionery.
(I'm relieved, by the way, that Mr Conrad omitted that most important
branch of non-operatic music theatre from his list, as I've known
Spaniards who would challenge anyone calling their greatest zarzuelas
"operettas" to knives at dawn. Quite right too!)
--
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK
http://www.zarzuela.net
"ZARZUELA!" The Spanish Music Site