Did Toscanini conduct Mahler music?
emf
available, where Beethoven 3 and Mahler 5 appear to be performed by
Toscanini conducting the NYPO. I have looked around and the second
item (which for biographical reasons sounds strange as performed by
AT) seems to be a wrong coupling. In effect the CD is no more
available. Any explanation?
Thanks
Ezio
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
Toscanini's entire repertoire is listed in Harvey Sachs' biography of
the conductor. It contained no Mahler.
John Wilson
The short answer to the tittle of your thread is no. Not one note.
Grammofono 2000 is/was one of the Italian pirate labels and not to be
trusted. Not only is their sound usually poor but their documentation
is usually faulty.
John
benjo maso
"emf" <chez_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:971ed91a.03041...@posting.google.com...
Toscanini studied the score of Mahler 5, but hated it. His wrote his comment
to a friend: 婿elieve me, Mahler is not a genuine artist. His music has
neither personality nor genius. It+s a mixture of an Italianate style a la
Petrella or Leoncavallo, coupled with Tschaikowsky愀 musical and
instrumental bombast and a seeking after Straussian peuliarities) although
boasting an opposite system, without having the originality of the last two.
At every step you fall, not in commonplace, but into some triviality. Look
at this (here T. wrote out 8 bars of the recurring theme of the opening
funeral march'. Petrella and Leoncavallo would look disdainfully at this
nice little march motif. .. Mahler is shameless enough to intrduce it in the
first movement of a symphony ... , etc., etc.
Benjo Maso
Gyula Hunyor
AFAIK Toscanini never conducted Mahler. One of his biography - just can't
recall which one - stated that he studied the Fifth symphony with great
interest but in the end he disliked Mahler's music. A few years ago I saw
an LP, which I thought had been conducted by Toscanini, then it turned
out to be played by a certain Arturo Toscanini Orchestra.
Gyula
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:3ea0add4...@news.earthlink.net:
In addition, they have issued some items with long-known fraudulent
attributions, such as that cylinder ostensibly conducted by Wagner himself
at Bayreuth.
There are pirate labels and there are pirate labels. But some of them,
particularly Grammofono 2000 and Iron Needle, I call the "theft" labels.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
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RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:b7mbcr$2bk1a$1...@ID-75468.news.dfncis.de:
A fuller version of the letter is in Sachs' new book, on page 69. Sachs
helps keep things in context a bit with his comments, too.
Edward Waffle
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) wrote in message ...
>There are pirate labels and there are pirate labels. But some of them,
>particularly Grammofono 2000 and Iron Needle, I call the "theft" labels.
>
No honor among thieves?
Or does Iron Needle just not have a parrot on its shoulder, a peg leg, an
eye patch and bottle of rum?
Ansermetniac
composed by a crazy man. Maybe sleigh bells ain't his thing
Abbedd
"Gyula Hunyor" <ghu...@mail.datanet.hu> wrote in message
news:af3a6621.03041...@posting.google.com...
emf
> >
> > In the site of FNAC I have found a Grammofono 2000 CD no more
> > available, where Beethoven 3 and Mahler 5
>
As I have a huge collection of Toscanini recordings, and being really
interested to Toscanini conducting activity, I did already know the
answer. As one of the "lucky" owners of the Wagner cylinder CD I know
about the Grammofono 2000 not perfect activity.
Though, as Italian, I am afraid to be quite unhappy of the use of the
word "italian" before the word "pirate", because I think there are a
lot of foreign products with uncorrect advertising as well as
editorial correctness.
As it was remarked elsewhere, there are national laws which allow to
overcome copyrights; I agree that the use of material just published
under another label is against law, and that Grammofono 2000 is not so
fine (how do you say euphemistic?) with respect to other labels and
sometimes to its customers. I found also material published under
Nuova Era or Grammofono 2000 published elsewhere too, after more or
less short time, sometimes with better sometimes with worst results.
Also accidents can happen like the "ever released" on CD Beethoven 9
in Buenos Aires by Toscanini ( I think there is really "buona fede"
in what M&A wrote) after one month or so after the Arioso (unknown
label to me, probably just new). We do not what happens before the
publications of a CD, who gives the source material and under which
contractual conditions.
I am a great estimator of the job of a lot of people, and I understand
their soul when somebody uses their work, without notice (it happens
often to me in the field of scientific research). I do not approve
piracy, though (as noted elsewhere) sometimes some treasures have come
out through this way, but...
But it is a un undoubtable sign of personal reputation that the
coupling of the word "italian" and "pirate" never used for other
foreign pirates, that for somebody Italian people is all made of
pirates.
I could think and express my thoughts about some people, luckily a
few, but not consider everybody belonging to a nation just like the
few ones. I would like that somebody consider also the people closer
to them: SAINTS AND DEVILS ARE EVERYWHERE.
I do not know the English translation (help accepted) of what a Guy
said about 2000 years ago: " Si vede il fuscello nell'occhio altrui,
ma non la trave nel proprio". I'm not an observant catholic but some
rules are independent from religion.
Ezio
emf
> "emf" <chez_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:971ed91a.03041...@posting.google.com...
> > In the site of FNAC I have found a Grammofono 2000 CD no more
> > available, where Beethoven 3 and Mahler 5
>
Notwithstanding I'm a great estimator of Toscanini, I like Mahler. and
I am amused by Toscanini behaviour. I think that the musical
reputation Toscanini had about Mahler, was also related to what
happened in New York between them. And it was extended to Mahler's
music, not only to performing approach but of course to composition.
Please, notice that this behaviour was never used in these terms
towards anybody else (of those which remained in the history of music
of course). Their philosophies were too far each other. And so we
should consider Toscanini considerations about Mahler with a smile.
In any case, this confirms that Toscanini was great also in his
mistakes :-)
Ezio
Sam
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Reportedly. Toscanini heard the Mahler 4th on the radio and said it was
>composed by a crazy man. Maybe sleigh bells ain't his thing
Are there any Toscanini quotes about Bruckner? I think he did conduct
a Bruckner symphony when he was at the New York Philharmonic.
Paul Goldstein
Toscanini studied some Bruckner in the early 1930s, and conduced the Seventh in
about 1935. The performance is recorded, but can only be heard in certain
museums, e.g. the Rodgers and Hammerstein library in NYC (IIRC). Toscanini came
to the conclusion that Bruckner was not his cup of tea. The famous dismissal of
Bruckner attributed to him is something like: "He never had a woman." I don't
know if this is apocryphal.
Paul Goldstein
Tony Movshon
> Toscanini studied some Bruckner in the early 1930s, and conduced the Seventh in
> about 1935. The performance is recorded, but can only be heard in certain
> museums, e.g. the Rodgers and Hammerstein library in NYC (IIRC). Toscanini came
> to the conclusion that Bruckner was not his cup of tea. The famous dismissal of
> Bruckner attributed to him is something like: "He never had a woman." I don't
> know if this is apocryphal.
Beecham stated his view of Bruckner, after conducting the 7th, by saying "In
the first movement alone, I took note of six pregancies and at least four
miscarriages".
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
August Helmbright
Some other complimentary and contradictory examples: B. H. Haggin
reported that Toscanini's distaste for Artur Schnabel was so great
that (in Haggin's opinion) it caused Toscanini to mis-hear Schnabel's
playing. He mentions an example of him imitating a Schnabel
performance in a manner that to Haggin's ears was so exaggerated that
it bore little or no relationship to Schabel's actual playing. I don't
recall the work / passage in question. On the other hand, while
Toscanini and Furtwängler clearly did not get along personally, and
despite many specific musical differences, Toscanini still recommended
Furtwängler as his successor in New York. Also, according to Hans
Hubert Schönzeler's Furtwängler biography, Toscanini was pressed by a
woman at a party in 1947 to name the best conductor in the world other
than himself. After trying to avoid the question for a while,
Toscanini said "Furtwängler" and angrily walked away.
John Wilson
wrote:
He also performed the Bruckner 4th with the NYPO but no recording of
those performances exist. At least none that I know of.
John
David7Gable
I don't think any of us impugns the Italian character. It's just that the
Italians have two things Americans don't: incredibly liberal copyright laws
and a greater interest in classical music and Italian opera.
-david gable
August Helmbright
Quite a few. Look at Vol. I No. 3 of Chord and Discord, the one-time
publication of the now mostly inactive Bruckner Society of America, at
the following link:
http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/mahler/cdv1n3.html
Search for an article called "Toscanini and Bruckner." It is apparent
that Toscanini was briefly very enthusiastic about and very much
immersed himself in Bruckner's music. I also recall reading a reply he
made about what his favorite music was -- probably in the early 30s --
in which he ended up the list with something along the lines of "I'm
also recently studying the monumental symphonies of Bruckner."
As to his later change of heart, he is often quoted as having said,
"Bruckner's music has no sex." I have no idea whether Toscanini paid
any attention to the so-called "Original Versions" that began
appearing after his performances of the 4th and 7th, and if so,
whether they had anything to do with his change of heart. We do know
from the testimony of many who knew Toscanini that he was a voracious
reader of musical scores, many of which he never conducted.
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
to be typed in news:971ed91a.03041...@posting.google.com:
American collectors of a certain age (myself included) remember that back
in the 1970s (and probably before that, though my collecting only began in
1969), Italian copyright laws with regard to sound recordings were quite
liberal compared with today. A live performance of at least twenty-five
years' provenance, for example, could be legally issued in Italy by anyone
with access to a record pressing plant.
Collectors in Europe, particularly in Italy, probably had little trouble
finding such historical issues. Here in the United States, it often took a
little effort. And since it took some effort, these "Italian pirates" (for
pirate recordings they might technically have been under US copyright law)
were often particularly prized.
I suggest that the term, which at least at one time was an affectionate
one, has persisted, and I'm sorry if it causes you annoyance.
Dan Koren
Any Sibelius?
dk
Edward A. Cowan
> Some other complimentary and contradictory examples: B. H. Haggin
> reported that Toscanini's distaste for Artur Schnabel was so great
> that (in Haggin's opinion) it caused Toscanini to mis-hear Schnabel's
> playing. He mentions an example of him imitating a Schnabel
> performance in a manner that to Haggin's ears was so exaggerated that
> it bore little or no relationship to Schabel's actual playing. I don't
> recall the work / passage in question.
What AT was imitating in Schnabel was the way the pianist (allegedly)
performed the opening solo in Beethoven's Piano concerto no.4...
--E.A.C.
Bob Harper
The Second at least. On the subject of the original thread, I remember
reading in the Marsh book that Mitropoulos had once begged Toscnini to
play something by Mahler, perhaps the Fourth. According to Marsh, after
stewing for a few moments, Toscanini replied, 'Mahler's music is fit to
be used only as toilet paper.' Needless to say, this ended the conversation.
To be honest, I can't imagine that Toscanini would have been a very good
Mahler conductor, so I doubt we're missing much.
Bob Harper
Roland van Gaalen
news:3EA148FE...@attbi.com...
> [...]
> To be honest, I can't imagine that Toscanini would have been a very good
> Mahler conductor, [...]
That's interesting -- why do you think so?
(I agree, by way, but I would like to know your reason.)
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
E-mail: R.P.vanGaalenATchello.nl (replace AT by @)
Paul Goldstein
says...
Yes, quite a bit, including the 2nd and 4th symphonies and many of the tone
poems.
Paul Goldstein
Lehobe
newsgroup sometime ago --- and I believe Toscanini conducted the Bruckner
Seventh Symphony during one season with the Philarharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
of New York. To the best of my knowledge, that's all he ever performed. Right
off the top of my head, I'm thinking of what B.H. Haggin wrote in
"Conversations with Toscanini" about Toscanini and the Bruckner symphonies. He
wrote that the Maestro knew all the symphonies. Les
Bob Harper
I don't think Toscanini would have been flexible enough--IN THE RIGHT
WAY--for Mahler's music. Maybe what I'm saying is that the
Austro-Hungarian/Jewish sentiment of Mahler would have been alien to
Toscanini. Note that I'm NOT saying that Toscanini was incapable of
flexibility or sentiment (though as he got older it's certainly harder
to discern), but I don't think his Italianate sensibility would work for
Mahler.
That's how I see it.
Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:3EA148FE...@attbi.com:
> Dan Koren wrote:
>> Martha & Russ Oppenheim <moppe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:<3E9E9396...@satx.rr.com>...
>>
>>>
>>> Toscanini's entire repertoire is listed in Harvey Sachs' biography of
>>> the conductor. It contained no Mahler.
>>
>> Any Sibelius?
>>
>
> The Second at least.
Also the 4th, two of the Four Legends ("Lemminkainen's Homecoming" and "The
Swan of Tuonela"), "Pohjala's Daughter," "Finlandia" and (the best of all of
his Sibelius) "En Saga."
Lena
So Bruckner's problem (if there was one) was more along the lines of never
having had a midwife?
(Listening to Celibidache's Bruckner 6)
Lena
David7Gable
>WAY--for Mahler's music.
That's what I thought about Toscanini and the Adagio from Berlioz's Roméo et
Juliette until I heard Toscanini's performance from the complete recording of
the work.
>I don't think his Italianate sensibility would work for
>Mahler.
At one point Mahler was inordinately fond of Macscagni's L'Amico Fritz, saying
that "there are many affinities between Mascagni and myself." He was also a
frequent conductor of Verdi's Otello, a work that he admired enormously and one
that was not without its influence on Mahler's language. So who knows?
-david gable
David7Gable
>helps keep things in context a bit with his comments, too.
I suppose the letter is too long to quote in full. I'd love to read it.
-david gable
David7Gable
>eye patch and bottle of rum?
In LP days there was both a Penzance label and I think even a Corsaro records.
-david gable
Dan Koren
I believe the problem was more likely not having a wife.
dk
MarkZimmerman
>dk
Mebbe it's more like never having an alter boy! <grin>
Best,
Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Ansermetniac
his Sibelius) "En Saga."
ON TV
Abbedd
"Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)" <oy兀earthlink.net>
wrote in message news:Xns936266CC1CC...@129.250.170.99...
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in news:7cnoa.48760$MB4.19932571
@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
> and (the best of all of his Sibelius) "En Saga."
>
> ON TV
Yes, the 15 March 1952 telecast. But there are also a couple of earlier
performances that have been available over the years: 2 February 1949 was
once on a dell'Arte CD, and 29 March 1936 with the Philharmonic-Symphony
Orchestra was in the "Historic Broadcasts" box.
August Helmbright
news:20030419154003...@mb-m02.aol.com:
Well, Toscanini didn't like Mascagni either.
Roland van Gaalen
>
>
> Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > "Bob Harper" <1bha...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:3EA148FE...@attbi.com...
> >
> >
> >>[...]
> >>To be honest, I can't imagine that Toscanini would have been a very good
> >>Mahler conductor, [...]
> >
> >
> > That's interesting -- why do you think so?
> >
> > (I agree, by way, but I would like to know your reason.)
> > --
>
> WAY--for Mahler's music. Maybe what I'm saying is that the
> Austro-Hungarian/Jewish sentiment of Mahler would have been alien to
> Toscanini. Note that I'm NOT saying that Toscanini was incapable of
> flexibility or sentiment (though as he got older it's certainly harder
> to discern), but I don't think his Italianate sensibility would work for
> Mahler.
>
> That's how I see it.
Thank you; this makes sense to me. I'm curious if Toscanini suffered from
machismo.