Mahler and Karajan
Tony Movshon
> Does anyone know if there are any other Mahler recordings by Karajan
> other than the 4,5,6, and 9 on DG? Any old recordings that are no
> longer available? Did Karajan conduct all of Mahler's symphonies at
> one time or another during his career or just the ones he recorded for
> DG?
There's a Das Lied broadcast on one of the pirates (Arkadia?). Haven't
heard it. As far as I know, he didn't perform the other symphonies, and
there are no records other than the four you mention (five, actually:
there are two 9ths).
Karajan came to Mahler rather late, in that phase of his career where
smoothly integrated sound became something of an obsession for him. I
think his Mahler suffers as a result. It's too bad, as I suspect he
could have done a first-rate job with Mahler twenty years before (his
earlier recordings of Berg, Schoenberg, et al show that he could do a
fine job with music of that period when he was "on"). As it is, with
the exception of the finale of his second 9th, I don't much care for
his Mahler recordings.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
lawrence kasimow
Ludwig was the alto.
Lawrence Kasimow
Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message ...
>mov...@nyu.edu (Tony Movshon) wrote in <39D951D8...@nyu.edu>:
>Wasn't there also a studio recording of DLVDE issued by DGG?
>
>--
>Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
>My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
>My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
>To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
>"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
>
Nobody
Todd Kay
>There's a Das Lied broadcast on one of the pirates (Arkadia?). Haven't
>heard it. As far as I know, he didn't perform the other symphonies,
He didn't. He planned a recording of 8 as well, but changed his mind upon
hearing the work as conducted by Maazel in London. And that report of a live
"Resurrection" Symphony at the Easter Festival with Janowitz and Ludwig was
erroneous; there was no such performance, and thus no such pirated live
recording. As far as I know, he never even studied that score.
[snip]
>Karajan came to Mahler rather late, in that phase of his career where
>smoothly integrated sound became something of an obsession for him. I
>think his Mahler suffers as a result. It's too bad, as I suspect he
>could have done a first-rate job with Mahler twenty years before (his
>earlier recordings of Berg, Schoenberg, et al show that he could do a
>fine job with music of that period when he was "on"). As it is, with
>the exception of the finale of his second 9th, I don't much care for
>his Mahler recordings.
I disagree to the extent that I love his whole second recording of 9 of which
you like only the finale, and I rate his 6th highly. His 5th has its moments
but overall sounds like a rush job, and I've never knowingly heard the 4th, but
I've heard good things about it only from Penguin, never from actual people.
Matthew B. Tepper
>There's a Das Lied broadcast on one of the pirates (Arkadia?). Haven't
>heard it. As far as I know, he didn't perform the other symphonies, and
>there are no records other than the four you mention (five, actually:
>there are two 9ths).
>
>Karajan came to Mahler rather late, in that phase of his career where
>smoothly integrated sound became something of an obsession for him. I
>think his Mahler suffers as a result. It's too bad, as I suspect he
>could have done a first-rate job with Mahler twenty years before (his
>earlier recordings of Berg, Schoenberg, et al show that he could do a
>fine job with music of that period when he was "on"). As it is, with
>the exception of the finale of his second 9th, I don't much care for
>his Mahler recordings.
Wasn't there also a studio recording of DLVDE issued by DGG?
George Murnu
> heard it. As far as I know, he didn't perform the other symphonies, and
> there are no records other than the four you mention (five, actually:
> there are two 9ths).
>
> Karajan came to Mahler rather late, in that phase of his career where
> smoothly integrated sound became something of an obsession for him. I
> think his Mahler suffers as a result. It's too bad, as I suspect he
> could have done a first-rate job with Mahler twenty years before (his
> earlier recordings of Berg, Schoenberg, et al show that he could do a
> fine job with music of that period when he was "on"). As it is, with
> the exception of the finale of his second 9th, I don't much care for
> his Mahler recordings.
While it is true that Karajan did not perform or record any other
symphonies than those you mention, I would like to make a point: the
fact that Karajan never performed in concert a work does not mean that
he also never recorded it. For example Karajan recorded Bruckner's 1st,
2nd, 3rd, and 6th symphonies, but he never conducted them in concert.
Likewise, AFAIK, is Sibelius 2nd, and most of Haydn's London Symphonies
( and Paris for that matter ).
Regards,
George
John Grabowski
>
> In article <39D951D8...@nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon <mov...@nyu.edu> writes:
>
> >There's a Das Lied broadcast on one of the pirates (Arkadia?). Haven't
> >heard it. As far as I know, he didn't perform the other symphonies,
>
> He didn't. He planned a recording of 8 as well, but changed his mind upon
> hearing the work as conducted by Maazel in London. And that report of a live
> "Resurrection" Symphony at the Easter Festival with Janowitz and Ludwig was
> erroneous; there was no such performance, and thus no such pirated live
> recording. As far as I know, he never even studied that score.
That's what's always made my blink about a comment by a music critic
(here's another opportunity to start a thread slamming professional
critics :) formerly of Time magazine, Michael Walsh, who also wrote an
uneven but fairly enjoyable book called "Who's Afraid of Classical
Music?" In it he's talking about professionalism and he says "What's
the difference between amateur Gilbert Kaplan's recording of Mahler's
Second Symphony and Herbert von Karajan's? (Hint: there's a big
difference.)" My immediate thought was "Yeah, one exists, the other
doesn't.
John
--
Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal
is a Christian nation...We are called by God to conquer this country.
We don't want pluralism. --Randall Terry, Operation Rescue
Spammers: I don't need a work-at-home business, a ground-floor
investment opportunity or Viagra, thank you.
Todd Kay
<jg...@earthlink.net> writes:
>That's what's always made my blink about a comment by a music critic
>(here's another opportunity to start a thread slamming professional
>critics :) formerly of Time magazine, Michael Walsh, who also wrote an
>uneven but fairly enjoyable book called "Who's Afraid of Classical
>Music?" In it he's talking about professionalism and he says "What's
>the difference between amateur Gilbert Kaplan's recording of Mahler's
>Second Symphony and Herbert von Karajan's? (Hint: there's a big
>difference.)" My immediate thought was "Yeah, one exists, the other
>doesn't.
>
Didn't Lebrecht also trip himself up (in one of his books) with a snide comment
about a "best-selling" record by Karajan...of some very well-known work that,
in fact, Karajan never recorded? I guess he made so many records in so much
repertoire that people imagine ones that aren't there, even going so far as to
supply a review sometimes. I've seen it once or twice on this newsgroup, in
fact (e.g., "As for the Karajan recording of the Janacek Sinfonietta, well, I
ditched mine long ago. He and the BPO completely fail to convey the contours of
this music. A bland, smooth monstrosity!").
rec.music.classical.auditory-hallucinations...
TD
"Tony Movshon" <mov...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:39D951D8...@nyu.edu...
> heard it.
There's also a studio Das Lied on DG.
David Standifer
> I disagree to the extent that I love his whole second recording of 9 of which
> you like only the finale, and I rate his 6th highly. His 5th has its moments
> but overall sounds like a rush job, and I've never knowingly heard the 4th, but
> I've heard good things about it only from Penguin, never from actual people.
I agree with Todd. I love that 9 (alongside the totally different Klemperer and
several others) and the 6 is among the best. Haven't heard 4 or 5 due to pretty
consistent negative reviews here, though I plan to check 4 out of the Houston
Public Library sometime (they may have 5 too). But DLVDE sounds much more
interesting. Does anyone have that?
Too bad, I think, that he didn't do 7.
David
Tim Dowling
> In article <39D96C...@erols.com>,
gmu...@erols.com wrote:
>
> While it is true that Karajan did not perform or record any other
> symphonies than those you mention, I would like to make a point: the
> fact that Karajan never performed in concert a work does not mean that
> he also never recorded it. For example Karajan recorded Bruckner's
1st,
> 2nd, 3rd, and 6th symphonies, but he never conducted them in concert.
> Likewise, AFAIK, is Sibelius 2nd, and most of Haydn's London
Symphonies
> ( and Paris for that matter ).
>
> Regards,
>
> George
Via the web site of the v Karajan Centrum archive...
http://www.karajan.org/archiv_e/archiv_aufuhr.htm
it is possible to see exactly what Karajan conducted in concert and
when.
Indeed HvK only conducted Mahler 4,5,6,and,.9, Das Lied and Lieder eines
fahrenden Gesellen
LfG- twice in 1955 USA tour solist Carol Brice
Symphony no 4- 10 times in 1980
no5 9 times between '73 and '78
no6 13 times between '77 and '82
no9 9 times in '82 only (including 100 years BPO concert)
DLvdE 13 times between 1960 and '78.
This means that his 1st recording of M9 was not connected to public
performances.
All programs are listed, with contemporary reviews (poor reviews are not
purged!) . If you can read German they make fascinating reading. One
culd not say on the basis of HvK's concert programs that he was a true
believer, as it were. Especially compared to his Brahms or Beethoven
performances. He played Brahms 1 132 times, Brahms 2- 133 times, 145
Beethoven 5ths, 125 Beethoven 7ths, 75 Beethoven 9ths, 74 Eroicas, 53
Bruckner 7ths.
Tim Dowling
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Massimo Nespolo
> He didn't. He planned a recording of 8 as well, but changed his mind upon
> hearing the work as conducted by Maazel in London.
Probably thinking that the bad was in Mahler instead than in Maazel? Maazel
recorded (with VPO) the worst M8 I've heard so far (and I've more than 20
different recordings...)
Massimo Nespolo, Japan
MSten4MHS
He performed Das Lied with Wunderlich in the early sixties.
As far as "coming to Mahler rather late," Karajan certainly knew many of these
works intimately years before he decided to add a few to his active repertoire
(at least that premise is advanced in the recent Osborne bio).
I heard his Mahler 9 at Carnegie in the early '80s - it was absolutely
stupendous.
Mark Stenroos
VP of Marketing & Catalog Development
Musical Heritage Society, USA
MSten4MHS
interesting. Does anyone have that? >>
He made a commercial recording with Ludwig & Kollo on DGG. It's not bad, but I
wouldn't say it's a top choice.
Simon Roberts
: I agree with Todd. I love that 9 (alongside the totally different Klemperer and
: several others) and the 6 is among the best. Haven't heard 4 or 5 due to pretty
: consistent negative reviews here, though I plan to check 4 out of the Houston
: Public Library sometime (they may have 5 too). But DLVDE sounds much more
: interesting. Does anyone have that?
I don't think it's one of his better Mahler efforts (the best for me are
9, 6 and the songs with Ludwig); it's never incisive enough when it needs
to be - too much hazy atmosphere. The presence of Kollo doesn't help.
Ludwig is first rate, of course, but is better with Klemperer (or, at any
rate, that's a better combination). 4 is too slow and legato for my
taste, 5 surprisingly sloppy some of the time (not compensated for by
any positive qualities that I can perceive).
Simon
David Standifer
> I don't think it's one of his better Mahler efforts (the best for me are
> 9, 6 and the songs with Ludwig); it's never incisive enough when it needs
> to be - too much hazy atmosphere. The presence of Kollo doesn't help.
> Ludwig is first rate, of course, but is better with Klemperer (or, at any
> rate, that's a better combination). 4 is too slow and legato for my
> taste,
Very interesting, Simon. How do you feel about FWM's 4? (I think you'd call his iii.
and parts of his i. slow and legato.) I rather like it, including Lott.
David
Simon Roberts
: Very interesting, Simon. How do you feel about FWM's 4? (I think you'd call his iii.
: and parts of his i. slow and legato.) I rather like it, including Lott.
I can't remember much about it; I had it years ago but evidently didn't
think enough of it to keep - don't remember why.
Simon
JRsnfld
several others) and the 6 is among the best. Haven't heard 4 or 5 due to
pretty
Go ahead and get the 5. If it's not as as supremely controlled as the 6 and 9,
it is exciting and virtuosic.
--Jeff
Tony Movshon
> Go ahead and get the 5. If it's not as as supremely controlled as the 6 and 9,
> it is exciting and virtuosic.
Woof. It is neither exciting nor even especially well played. I can think of
a dozen or more recordings that are better in both respects.
Still, it's not as bad as the 4th, which is a real snooze.
JRsnfld
9,
> >it is exciting and virtuosic.
>Woof. It is neither exciting nor even especially well played. I can think of
a dozen or more recordings that are better in both respects.<
Yap, yap. I agree that it is neither the most exciting nor the best played 5
I've heard. But if someone seems to admire Karajan's Mahler generally, I see
plenty of reason to enjoy the Mahler 5.
--Jeff
Ferd Op de Coul
>
> JRsnfld wrote:
> > Go ahead and get the 5. If it's not as as supremely controlled as the 6 and 9,
> > it is exciting and virtuosic.
>
> Woof. It is neither exciting nor even especially well played. I can think of
> a dozen or more recordings that are better in both respects.
>
> --
> Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
> Center for Neural Science New York University
I think Mahler must be played transparantly as...Haydn and Mozart's
symfonies. And Karajans playing Mozart (except the opera's) was a crime..so
why Mahler by Karajan? There are many more serious interpreters of this music.
Ferd Op de Coul
Matthew B. Tepper
<20001003153711...@ng-ci1.aol.com>:
>>> Go ahead and get the 5. If it's not as as supremely controlled as the
>>> 6 and 9, it is exciting and virtuosic.
>
>>Woof. It is neither exciting nor even especially well played. I can
>>think of a dozen or more recordings that are better in both respects.<
>
>Yap, yap. I agree that it is neither the most exciting nor the best
>played 5 I've heard. But if someone seems to admire Karajan's Mahler
>generally, I see plenty of reason to enjoy the Mahler 5.
Quack. Didn't much care for it when it came out, though I haven't heard
any of the CD issues and should reserve future judgment.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
Tony Movshon
> if someone seems to admire Karajan's Mahler generally, I see
> plenty of reason to enjoy the Mahler 5.
With that qualification, how could I disagree?
Jan Depondt
"Ferd Op de Coul" <f.opd...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:39DA3549...@chello.nl...
>
> I think Mahler must be played transparantly as...Haydn and Mozart's
> symfonies. And Karajans playing Mozart (except the opera's) was a
crime..so
> why Mahler by Karajan? There are many more serious interpreters of this
music.
>
Crime? Well, bring him to court.
More serious interpreters? Never heard that Karajan made jokes.
Jan Depondt
Tripletz
>smoothly integrated sound became something of an obsession for him. I
>think his Mahler suffers as a result. It's too bad, as I suspect he
>could have done a first-rate job with Mahler twenty years before (his
>earlier recordings of Berg, Schoenberg, et al show that he could do a
>fine job with music of that period when he was "on"). As it is, with
>the exception of the finale of his second 9th, I don't much care for
>his Mahler recordings.
I only know the recordings of 5, 6, and 9 (both). 5 should be passed up, but
the 6th is the greatest recording of that work that I've ever heard (boy, do
the strings soar in the Adagio); and he may not have the last word in the 9th
(does anyone?) but it is definitely worthwhile and currently offered very cheap
by BMG and MHS.
JRsnfld
>> if someone seems to admire Karajan's Mahler generally, I see
>> plenty of reason to enjoy the Mahler 5.
>With that qualification, how could I disagree?
Whew. I can go hear the 7th tomorrow with MTT/SFSO with a clean conscience.
--Jeff
David Standifer
Ferd Op de Coul wrote:
> I think Mahler must be played transparantly as...Haydn and Mozart's
> symfonies. And Karajans playing Mozart (except the opera's)
Cough cough, Requiem (70s), cough cough. Best non-HIP version I know.
> was a crime..so
> why Mahler by Karajan? There are many more serious interpreters of this music.
"More serious"? Are you suggesting that Karajan was simply having a laugh? (At least
you didn't trot out that tired old party line that Karajan was merely hopping on the
bandwagon.)
And "why Mahler by Karajan?"? Because some of us find it worthwhile?? Wild guess!
I think it would be pretty difficult to listen to (at the very least) HvK's (second)
9.iv and not sense a deep investment in the work's emotional thrust - not hard to
believe, considering death was beginning to loom for Herbie at that point, just as it
was for Mahler when he wrote the symphony. Is it that you don't think an ex-Nazi
could possibly have a heart? As far as I can tell, it's plainly on his sleeve here.
Furthermore, I do not subscribe to the Conductor-X-Is-The-Patron-Saint-Of-Composer-Y
school of thought. Take Bernstein, Barbirolli, and Horenstein (off the top of my
head, the three pre-eminent sacred cows of Mahler conducting) -- for my taste, all
three have highly variable levels of success and/or sympathy with the various
symphonies. It sounds like Karajan was out of touch with 4 and 5.
By the way, was I on crack or did I see in Gramophone recently that Giulini's Mahler 9
is being reissued? Is there any chance of acceptable sound this time?
David, still waiting calmly for Klemp's 7 to be reissued in the US.
Tony Movshon
Clear ears are more important than a clear conscience.
--
Tony Movshon Center for Neural Science
mov...@nyu.edu New York University
Tony Movshon
> Is it that you don't think an ex-Nazi
> could possibly have a heart? As far as I can tell,
> it's plainly on his sleeve here.
I'm a biologist, David, and trust me on this: that's *not* his heart.
He had no heart. This is a family newsgroup, so I can't tell you what
organ it really is.
> By the way, was I on crack or did I see in Gramophone recently that
> Giulini's Mahler 9 is being reissued?
I can't answer the first question; yes, the Guilini M9 is reissued in
the Originals series, perhaps only in Europe (see another thread now
running).
> Is there any chance of acceptable sound this time?
If that's a reference to the distortion that occasionally afflicts
the strings (esp the violas), it's not likely they can fix that; it's
probably on the master tape. Otherwise, the sound was, and presumably
still is, fine.
> David, still waiting calmly for Klemp's 7 to be reissued in the US.
Used copies of the older issue are thick on the ground.
Simon Roberts
: David Standifer wrote:
: > By the way, was I on crack or did I see in Gramophone recently that
: > Giulini's Mahler 9 is being reissued?
: > Is there any chance of acceptable sound this time?
: If that's a reference to the distortion that occasionally afflicts
: the strings (esp the violas), it's not likely they can fix that; it's
: probably on the master tape. Otherwise, the sound was, and presumably
: still is, fine.
At least one person has reported here that this problem *has* been fixed.
: > David, still waiting calmly for Klemp's 7 to be reissued in the US.
: Used copies of the older issue are thick on the ground.
Now that I would love to see.
Simon
Tony Movshon
> Never heard that Karajan made jokes.
Certainly not good ones.
David Standifer
> > David, still waiting calmly for Klemp's 7 to be reissued in the US.
>
> Used copies of the older issue are thick on the ground.
Maybe where you live! [see below]
David, in TX = )
> --
> Tony Movshon Center for Neural Science
> mov...@nyu.edu New York University
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^