gliere ilya muromets

[Lawrence Chalmers]

Who put together the abridged version?

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 11 July 2021 at 06:47:05 UTC+10, 347chalm...com wrote:
> Who put together the abridged version?

I didn't know there was one. Stokowski was known for messing with scores, and he recorded Ilya several times. Botstein might be another candidate, although I am not sure what constitutes *abridged*. Maybe something approved of by the composer?

Ray Hall, Taree

[Jerry]

I recall reading that "abridged" versions of Gliere's 3rd were once common for
concerts (their timing fit more comfortably into a typical program format) and
Rodzinsky did that in New York in the 40s. On records, Stokowski, Ormandy,
Fricsay, all used abridgements before they apparently went out of fashion.

A point that should be mentioned is that the liner notes for the LP issue of
Stokowski's Houston Symphony stereo recording states that the abridgement
was done by L.S. with Gliere's approval. (Sorry, I don't have the exact wording).
If that's true, the Stoki/Houston version might have some claim to legitimacy.

It's still my favorite (over any of the complete versions I've heard) since it's
tauter. There are other examples where composers shortened
works that subsequently found their way into the standard repertoire
(e.g. Vaughan Williams 2nd; Sibelius Violin Concerto).

Jerry

[Kerrison]

Just to confirm the above, the 'Seraphim' reissue of the 'Capitol' LP of the Stokowski / Houston performance states: "Several celebrated conductors have lent their advocacy to the work but in our time none is so closely identified with it as Leopold Stokowski. It was Mr Stokowski who, with Gliere, edited the original of 'Ilya Murometz' to practicable concert length and thus ensured its place in the standard repertory." There's a photo of Stokowski with Gliere and Ippolitov-Ivanov on page 209 in Oliver Daniel's massive tome "Stokowski - A Counterpoint of View" which might add veracity to the claim. This was taken in 1931 when Stokowski visited Moscow, where he heard the Bolshoi Opera in 'Boris Godunov,' a work which had received its US premiere under his direction in Philadelphia in 1929. Incidentally, Stokowski's Philadelphia 78s of 'Ilya Murometz' (1940) came to a total of 46 minutes but by the time he recorded it in Houson (1957) he'd edited it down to 38 minutes. Contrast that with the "First Complete Stereo Recording" ('Unicorn' in 1978) in which Harold Farberman conducted the Royal Philharmonic. His total timing was an incredible 92 minutes, largely brought about by some dreadfully slow and lugubrious tempos.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Monday, 12 July 2021 at 17:26:31 UTC+10, Kerrison wrote:
> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 3:53:14 AM UTC+1, Jerry wrote:

Thanks for this info. One of the reasons I am no fan of Stokowski, is that I almost invariably will prefer the version as intended by the composer. I have Falletta who takes 71" and Feltz who takes 83", but none are as slow as Farberman, but some may wallow in it.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Lawrence Chalmers]

Thanks for all your feedback!

[Kerrison]

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 5:09:13 PM UTC+1, 347chalm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 2:00:20 AM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, 12 July 2021 at 17:26:31 UTC+10, Kerrison wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 3:53:14 AM UTC+1, Jerry wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 7:44:35 PM UTC-4, raymond....com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, 11 July 2021 at 06:47:05 UTC+10, 347chalm...com wrote:
> > > > > > Who put together the abridged version?
> > > > > I didn't know there was one. Stokowski was known for messing with scores, and he recorded Ilya several times. Botstein might be another candidate, although I am not sure what constitutes *abridged*. Maybe something approved of by the composer?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray Hall, Taree
> > > > I recall reading that "abridged" versions of Gliere's 3rd were once common for
> > > > concerts (their timing fit more comfortably into a typical program format) and
> > > > Rodzinsky did that in New York in the 40s. On records, Stokowski, Ormandy,
> > > > Fricsay, all used abridgements before they apparently went out of fashion.
> > > >
> > > > A point that should be mentioned is that the liner notes for the LP issue of
> > > > Stokowski's Houston Symphony stereo recording states that the abridgement
> > > > was done by L.S. with Gliere's approval. (Sorry, I don't have the exact wording).
> > > > If that's true, the Stoki/Houston version might have some claim to legitimacy.
> > > >
> > > > It's still my favorite (over any of the complete versions I've heard) since it's
> > > > tauter. There are other examples where composers shortened
> > > > works that subsequently found their way into the standard repertoire
> > > > (e.g. Vaughan Williams 2nd; Sibelius Violin Concerto).
> > > >
> > > > Jerry

> > > Just to confirm the above, the 'Seraphim' reissue of the 'Capitol' LP of the Stokowski / Houston performance states: "Several celebrated conductors have lent their advocacy to the work but in our time none is so closely identified with it as Leopold Stokowski. It was Mr Stokowski who, with Gliere, edited the original of 'Ilya Murometz' to practicable concert length and thus ensured its place in the standard repertory." There's a photo of Stokowski with Gliere and Ippolitov-Ivanov on page 209 in Oliver Daniel's massive tome "Stokowski - A Counterpoint of View" which might add veracity to the claim. This was taken in 1931 when Stokowski visited Moscow, where he heard the Bolshoi Opera in 'Boris Godunov,' a work which had received its US premiere under his direction in Philadelphia in 1929. Incidentally, Stokowski's Philadelphia 78s of 'Ilya Murometz' (1940) came to a total of 46 minutes but by the time he recorded it in Houston (1957) he'd edited it down to 38 minutes. Contrast that with the "First Complete Stereo Recording" ('Unicorn' in 1978) in which Harold Farberman conducted the Royal Philharmonic. His total timing was an incredible 92 minutes, largely brought about by some dreadfully slow and lugubrious tempos.

> > Thanks for this info. One of the reasons I am no fan of Stokowski, is that I almost invariably will prefer the version as intended by the composer. I have Falletta who takes 71" and Feltz who takes 83", but none are as slow as Farberman, but some may wallow in it.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> Thanks for all your feedback!

Thanks also for the timings. I have the 'Chandos' Edward Downes / BBC Philharmonic CD and that comes to 78:08. Incidentally, the 3rd movement on the Downes CD comes to 7:10. On YouTube, there's this same movement from a Stokowski / Cleveland Orchestra broadcast which clocks in a 4:12, so Stokey must have done a hell of a lot of editing! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkAvWYzUXFw

His Houston recording is also on YouTube at the aforementioned 38 minutes. When the stereo 'Capitol' LP came out, the 'Gramophone' reviewer commented on the "wonderful richness" of Gliere's orchestration and the "often superb sounds, even though the musical thought behind them is usually banal." He concluded by saying that "a very great deal of the original is cut, but it still goes on too long for at least one listener." So there you have a critic's viewpoint ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtZUSvvHGBY

[Chris from Lafayette]

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:15:44 AM UTC-7, Kerrison wrote:

> [Stokowski's] Houston recording is also on YouTube at the aforementioned 38 minutes. When the stereo 'Capitol' LP came out, the 'Gramophone' reviewer commented on the "wonderful richness" of Gliere's orchestration and the "often superb sounds, even though the musical thought behind them is usually banal." He concluded by saying that "a very great deal of the original is cut, but it still goes on too long for at least one listener." So there you have a critic's viewpoint ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtZUSvvHGBY

Why am I not surprised at the smug ignorance of the Gramophone's critic? Sure, I get it: as Theresa May once claimed, those Russians don't share "OUR values" - and I guess she meant in the arts or otherwise! The Ilya Murometz Symphony is one of the greatest symphonies EVER written - certainly better than ANY Mahler symphony! There was one comment I saw where the poster described the Stokowski/Houston recording as "Highlights from the Ilya Murometz Symphony"! ;-)

It's a work that was made to be listened to in MCh, but IMHO, the Falletta and Botstein recordings are both pretty dreadful. OTOH, the Feltz/Belgrade performance on SACD is magnificent in its build and release of various levels of intensity, and the engineering is excellent too. At least all three of these MCh recordings are complete. Of the older recordings, I liked the Soviet Rakhlin performance, which was ALMOST complete, but, for whatever reason, it had a small cut. (I now forget where it was.) If anyone wants to check the completeness of a given performance, the score, which used to be hard to get, is available on IMSLP - unless you're in the EU. (Geez, the work was completed in 1919, and it's STILL apparently under copyright in some places!)

[Ed Presson]

"Chris from Lafayette" wrote in message
news:0093a7c2-f811-4951...@googlegroups.com...

I've loved this work for five decades or more, and I've tried to hear all
the recordings as they were issued. I concur with your assessment of the
Falletta and Botstein performances; I have not heard the Feltz, but it
sounds interesting. After all these years, my favorites are Stokowski
(EMI/Capitol), Ormandy (RCA), and Downes (Chandos for the sound). As much
as I've loved it, I think of it as a "guilty pleasure" and would not make
any claims for its "greatness." I'm glad that it bring you such pleasure,
though.

[Chris from Lafayette]

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 9:02:00 AM UTC-7, Ed Presson wrote:
> "Chris from Lafayette" wrote

> >. . . as Theresa May once claimed, those Russians don't share

> >"OUR values" - and I guess she meant in the arts or otherwise! >The Ilya
> >Murometz Symphony is one of the greatest symphonies EVER written -
> >certainly better than ANY Mahler symphony! There was one comment I saw
> >where the poster described the Stokowski/Houston >recording as "Highlights
> >from the Ilya Murometz Symphony"! ;-)
>
> >It's a work that was made to be listened to in MCh, but IMHO, the Falletta
> >and Botstein recordings are both pretty dreadful. OTOH, the Feltz/Belgrade
> >performance on SACD is magnificent in its build and
> >release of various levels of intensity, and the engineering is excellent

> >too. . . (Geez, the work was completed in 1919, and it's STILL

> >apparently under copyright in some places!)
>
> I've loved this work for five decades or more, and I've tried to hear all
> the recordings as they were issued. I concur with your assessment of the
> Falletta and Botstein performances; I have not heard the Feltz, but it
> sounds interesting. After all these years, my favorites are Stokowski
> (EMI/Capitol), Ormandy (RCA), and Downes (Chandos for the sound). As much
> as I've loved it, I think of it as a "guilty pleasure" and would not make
> any claims for its "greatness." I'm glad that it bring you such pleasure,
> though.

Ed - thanks for the reply, but I feel that you should "stand your ground" and not be intimidated by those who can only conceive of music in terms of Anglo-Germanic theory and aesthetics. There's nothing to feel guilty about! Oh sure, they'll point to the "pages and pages of sequences", but what they don't address is that there are bad sequences and there are good sequences. The opening of Mozart's Symphony No. 29: BAD (facile) sequences. The Ilya Murometz Symphony: GOOD (stirring) sequences! ;-)

[Kerrison]

> >
> > >It's a work that was made to be listened to in MCh, but IMHO, the Falletta
> > >and Botstein recordings are both pretty dreadful. OTOH, the Feltz/Belgrade
> > >performance on SACD is magnificent in its build and
> > >release of various levels of intensity, and the engineering is excellent
> > >too. . . (Geez, the work was completed in 1919, and it's STILL
> > >apparently under copyright in some places!)
> >

Apropos the reference to copyright ... Gliere died in 1956, so his music won't go into the public domain until 2026, seventy years after his death.

[Frank Berger]

That statement may or may not be true. Apparently if a composition was done for hire, the copyright could last longer, according to my legal consultant (Wikipedia).

Assuming the work is still in copyright, that means anyone who wants to record it has to pay for the right, correct? I wonder how much that would be? A significant deterrent? A percentage of sales from the recording? How does this work?

[Kerrison]

The Wiki entry on 'Ilya Muromets' has a section on the work's recordings which mentions only Stokowski and Scherchen. If someone would like to come up with a complete up-to-date list (conductor / orchestra / date and label) it could then be slotted in to make a very useful reference point ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(Gli%C3%A8re)

[Kerrison]

Oh, I just came across another thread on this symphony and that led me to an on-line discography of the work. However, I still think the Wiki entry's "Recordings" section should be a bit more comprehensive. Anyway, here's the Ilya discography ...

http://www.gliere.org.uk/discography.htm

[Lawrence Chalmers]

I would welcome a cd issue of the Scherchen version. I just listened to the Feltz recording and was very pleased especially for the sound. I don't have sacd capabilities but the stereo sounded a lot better than the Farbermann version.

[Frank Berger]

It was transferred by Rediscovery (from LP I presume) but for some reason is no longer listed on their web site. It was also included in the 40-CD "Westmisnter Legacy" box. still available, new and used.

https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-Legacy-Collectors-40-Limited/dp/B00GBJVK0S

[Juan I. Cahis]

Mark Melson <markm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Today I heard the Feltz recording twice, one through my loudspeakers and
another through my Bose headphones. I found the performance un-dramatic,
but with a lot of emphasis to clarify the details. I like a lot the
Symphony, but I didn’t perceive the heroic or dramatic character of the
Symphony in Feltz conducting. The same experience of many years ago when I
heard for the first time Karajan’s Wagner Ring recording after I was
familiar with Solti’s Ring.

--
Enviado desde mi iPad usando NewsTap, Juan I. Cahis, Santiago de Chile.

[number_six]

Westminster box looks cool. I wish, however, that Meyerbeer's Huguenots was included.

Gliere's ilya M is heretofore unfamiliar to me, but happily -- having collected the EMI Matrix series --I find that Stokowski is already in my queue, so I'll get to hear it pretty soon.

[gggg gggg]

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 1:47:05 PM UTC-7, 347chalm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Who put together the abridged version?

(Upcoming radio broadcast):

https://www.wfmt.com/2021/09/05/joann-falletta-explores-unusual-repertoire-program-1