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Medtner Night Wind sonata
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SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 22, 2012, 3:05:06 PM9/22/12
to
Today I listened to Eckardstein's version of Medtner's Night Wind sonata.
Lots of notes through which sometimes a melody (mostly the same) can be
heard.
Even with score the sense of the piece escapes me. In Eckardstein's
interpretation most of the melodies are more or less implicit. He gives
priority to colours - but those seem in themselves seldom interesting
enough.
Compared with Eckardstein Tozer is very explicit qua structure and melody
lines but it only makes Op. 25/2 sound bleaker, IMHO - even structure and
melodies seem seldom interesting enough.
Is the Night Wind one of Medtner's lesser sonatas? Or does it demand a
special approach? Rachmaninov seemed to have loved it.
Are there recordings of the piece that makes one forget the notes - in a
positive sense?
Henk
Lots of notes through which sometimes a melody (mostly the same) can be
heard.
Even with score the sense of the piece escapes me. In Eckardstein's
interpretation most of the melodies are more or less implicit. He gives
priority to colours - but those seem in themselves seldom interesting
enough.
Compared with Eckardstein Tozer is very explicit qua structure and melody
lines but it only makes Op. 25/2 sound bleaker, IMHO - even structure and
melodies seem seldom interesting enough.
Is the Night Wind one of Medtner's lesser sonatas? Or does it demand a
special approach? Rachmaninov seemed to have loved it.
Are there recordings of the piece that makes one forget the notes - in a
positive sense?
Henk
JohnGavin
Sep 22, 2012, 8:46:09 PM9/22/12
to
On Saturday, September 22, 2012 3:03:51 PM UTC-4, HvT wrote:
> Today I listened to Eckardstein's version of Medtner's Night Wind sonata.
>
> Lots of notes through which sometimes a melody (mostly the same) can be
>
> heard.
>
>
>
> Even with score the sense of the piece escapes me. In Eckardstein's
>
> interpretation most of the melodies are more or less implicit. He gives
>
> priority to colours - but those seem in themselves seldom interesting
>
> enough.
>
>
>
> Compared with Eckardstein Tozer is very explicit qua structure and melody
>
> lines but it only makes Op. 25/2 sound bleaker, IMHO - even structure and
>
> melodies seem seldom interesting enough.
>
>
>
> Is the Night Wind one of Medtner's lesser sonatas?
No!! I think it may be the greatest - but it is very, very difficult to bring off, and it takes a great deal of concentration on the part of the listener. It is probably Medtner's most ambitious piece, I find that when I'm in the mood to listen to it, it sends chills up my spine - very haunting and very deep. I would say that the most successful recording is Hamisch Milne's with Hamelin as the second.
> Today I listened to Eckardstein's version of Medtner's Night Wind sonata.
>
> Lots of notes through which sometimes a melody (mostly the same) can be
>
> heard.
>
>
>
> Even with score the sense of the piece escapes me. In Eckardstein's
>
> interpretation most of the melodies are more or less implicit. He gives
>
> priority to colours - but those seem in themselves seldom interesting
>
> enough.
>
>
>
> Compared with Eckardstein Tozer is very explicit qua structure and melody
>
> lines but it only makes Op. 25/2 sound bleaker, IMHO - even structure and
>
> melodies seem seldom interesting enough.
>
>
>
> Is the Night Wind one of Medtner's lesser sonatas?
Dufus
Sep 22, 2012, 10:34:45 PM9/22/12
to
>On Sep 22, 7:46 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 3:03:51 PM UTC-4, HvT wrote:
Hamelin, with score : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw31l4jsilI
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 3:03:51 PM UTC-4, HvT wrote:
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 23, 2012, 5:26:19 AM9/23/12
to
JohnGavin wrote:
> No!! I think it may be the greatest - but it is very, very
> difficult to bring off, and it takes a great deal of concentration on
> the part of the listener. It is probably Medtner's most ambitious
> piece, I find that when I'm in the mood to listen to it, it sends
> chills up my spine - very haunting and very deep. I would say that
> the most successful recording is Hamisch Milne's with Hamelin as the
> second.
>
Hmm. I already had a vague impression that I somehow did miss the point.
> No!! I think it may be the greatest - but it is very, very
> difficult to bring off, and it takes a great deal of concentration on
> the part of the listener. It is probably Medtner's most ambitious
> piece, I find that when I'm in the mood to listen to it, it sends
> chills up my spine - very haunting and very deep. I would say that
> the most successful recording is Hamisch Milne's with Hamelin as the
> second.
>
It's time to revisit Hamelin and to order Milne.
Many thanks John and Steve!!
Henk
Dufus
Sep 23, 2012, 10:55:00 AM9/23/12
to
>On Sep 22, 9:34 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hamelin, with score : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw31l4jsilI
My recording is the Tozer Chandos set. My first reaction to "Night
> Hamelin, with score : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw31l4jsilI
Wind" was to wonder what the big deal was , about this work. I have
not heard Milne. I did hear I believe a radio broadcast of a live
recital by Eckardstein, which reading I thought was " better" than
Tozer , as injecting the very complexity, ambiguity,darkness you note,
elevating the work in my eyes. Here is a sweeping account live by
Berezovsky , poor YT sound, but perhaps a needed urgency even if
details rushed (? ) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSrg9M92sU8&feature=related
Berezovsky has apparently not recorded any of the Sonatas.
The Hamelin YT of "Night Wind" is not complete , that I can find.
JohnGavin
Sep 23, 2012, 12:58:21 PM9/23/12
to
Now, Hamelin is awe-inspiring as far as his amazing ability to cut through a complex score like a knife through butter, yet I think his recording suffers from too generic an approach. He goes into fast forward mode too often, rather than really breathing and varying the music according to its rhapsodic nature.
With Hamelin, his initial interpretation - recording of a piece is often a little too green (unripe) in it's overall conception. But he definitely has the musicality to deliver a far greater performance - the problem is that his career has always been on a very fast track, due to his amazing gift of absorbing new repertoire almost immediately.
I hope he re-records some of his repertoire, like this piece again when it has matured.
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 23, 2012, 1:49:47 PM9/23/12
to
is available on Internet. The incompleteness of YT is no problem.
Eckardstein has recorded the Medtner live, coupled with Schubert's D784 and
the Debussy Images Lune and Poissons. It may very well be the same recital
you did hear although the recording took place in Duisburg.
Berezovsky's version is indeed a sweeping account, in spite of the sound.
Thanks for the URL!
BTW, of the versions I did hear till now I like Hamelin's best - although
probably just because of his fabulous pianism. It's extraordinary how easy
the score of Night Wind sounds when he plays it.
I've ordered Milne's complete Medtner sonatas. Till now I've avoided him -
you know my bias against Dutch and English pianists - but John Gavin made me
curious.
Henk
Dufus
Sep 23, 2012, 3:12:12 PM9/23/12
to
>On Sep 23, 12:48 pm, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
> you know my bias against Dutch and English pianists - but John Gavin made me curious.
While you await the Medtner , or if you like it :
> you know my bias against Dutch and English pianists - but John Gavin made me curious.
Alexandrov's "Six Preludes" , Op.1 , played by Milne :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHZIHYBXdk&feature=related
From this cd I enjoy, in small bites :
http://tinyurl.com/cofgany
And Bach - Siloti Prelude B minor , BWV 885a :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYH_Su87DKU
I do not have the cd, but may have to consider :
http://tinyurl.com/cll2feg
Dufus
Steve Emerson
Sep 23, 2012, 7:24:46 PM9/23/12
to
In article <505e0b95$0$6977$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl>,
It strikes me that the notes (which as you say are plentiful) fall out
into large quantities of comment, decoration, call-and-answer and the
like -- and do so with less difficulty than in, say, the note-heavy
works of Faure. (A remark meant not to denigrate Medtner, only to
describe the task of sorting through all the notes.)
(And OTOH it doesn't lessen the problem that, besides offering a great
many notes per minute, the sonata also offers a great many minutes.)
Lidsky, on Denon, makes an excellent case for the work and its ability
to make sense. Whether at that point it's interesting enough, can't say
-- he does do it without making the piece seem bleak. And I'll add that
I haven't heard as many performances as you and John have.
If you're digging around in Medtner -- I found Zhukov's Op. 22 to be one
of the exemplary NM recordings. It's in the Telos series, which refers
to Zhukov as Shukow. Let me know if non-availability makes these things
prohibitive; that is if you're at all curious....
SE.
into large quantities of comment, decoration, call-and-answer and the
like -- and do so with less difficulty than in, say, the note-heavy
works of Faure. (A remark meant not to denigrate Medtner, only to
describe the task of sorting through all the notes.)
(And OTOH it doesn't lessen the problem that, besides offering a great
many notes per minute, the sonata also offers a great many minutes.)
Lidsky, on Denon, makes an excellent case for the work and its ability
to make sense. Whether at that point it's interesting enough, can't say
-- he does do it without making the piece seem bleak. And I'll add that
I haven't heard as many performances as you and John have.
If you're digging around in Medtner -- I found Zhukov's Op. 22 to be one
of the exemplary NM recordings. It's in the Telos series, which refers
to Zhukov as Shukow. Let me know if non-availability makes these things
prohibitive; that is if you're at all curious....
SE.
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 24, 2012, 10:58:48 AM9/24/12
to
25/2 seems to need all the help it can get from its performers.
Many thanks for your very kind offer to let you know if ... However, these
CDs were more than available on Amazon, be it in some cases (but not all)
for rather high prices. I'm looking forward to Lidsky's version of Op. 25/2
and to Shukow's approach of Medtner.
Best regards,
Henk
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 24, 2012, 11:31:31 AM9/24/12
to
Berezovskyan sweeping statements here. I'm looking forward to his Op. 25/2
even more than before.
Many thanks for the URLs!
Henk
JohnGavin
Sep 24, 2012, 12:24:52 PM9/24/12
to
It came across as utterly chaotic, un-unified and frankly undisciplined to me. An instant reject CD. But I'd be interested in hearing other opinions on it.
It strikes me that there are 2 pianists in history who were clearly capable of delivering a great Night Wind. Rachmaninoff and Gilels.
Steve Emerson
Sep 24, 2012, 4:34:33 PM9/24/12
to
In article <a4f968ad-cec6-415c...@googlegroups.com>,
honest stating of views.
> But I'd be interested in hearing other opinions on it.
Well, I hope if Henk invests anything in it, he dislikes it less than
you do. One person I know did like it is the erstwhile Wayne Reimer, who
suggested it to me.
He's too polite to weigh in during a case like this -- but another
Medtner completist here is Miguel. I hope he'll let us know if he's
aware of other worthy performances.
SE.
JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm going to apologize in advance Steve, for being so completely contrarian
> on the matter of the Lidsky Night Wind, but I was nothing short of shell
> shocked after hearing this one. I thought it was one of the worst recordings
> of anything by a pianist that I'd ever heard.
>
> It came across as utterly chaotic, un-unified and frankly undisciplined to
> me. An instant reject CD.
Apology noted with appreciation; although who can object to a clearly
> I'm going to apologize in advance Steve, for being so completely contrarian
> on the matter of the Lidsky Night Wind, but I was nothing short of shell
> shocked after hearing this one. I thought it was one of the worst recordings
> of anything by a pianist that I'd ever heard.
>
> It came across as utterly chaotic, un-unified and frankly undisciplined to
> me. An instant reject CD.
honest stating of views.
> But I'd be interested in hearing other opinions on it.
you do. One person I know did like it is the erstwhile Wayne Reimer, who
suggested it to me.
He's too polite to weigh in during a case like this -- but another
Medtner completist here is Miguel. I hope he'll let us know if he's
aware of other worthy performances.
SE.
Dufus
Sep 24, 2012, 11:25:56 PM9/24/12
to
>On Sep 24, 11:24 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It strikes me that there are 2 pianists in history who were clearly capable of delivering a great Night Wind. Rachmaninoff and Gilels.
Just posted at YT , Gilels live in 1954 , in the Op.22 G minor Sonata,
> It strikes me that there are 2 pianists in history who were clearly capable of delivering a great Night Wind. Rachmaninoff and Gilels.
one of Medtner's great ones, and a " wind " itself :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl-wMyox7QU
Steve Emerson
Sep 25, 2012, 1:06:23 AM9/25/12
to
In article
<02c7a2a9-35c3-43e0...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
Which has been released, most recently, in a Gilels Brilliant Classics
box.
Per the online EG discography:
1/1954 - Moscow
MELODIYA D-02305-06 (LP)
MELODIYA SM 04331-32 (LP)
MONITOR MC 2130 (LP)
MONITOR MCS 2130 (LP)
ODYSSEY Y 34611 (LP)
MELODIYA/WESTMINSTER WGM-8273 (LP)
MELODIYA/WESTMINSTER XWN 18180 (LP)
MONITOR MCD 72048 (CD)
BIANCO E NERO BN 2437/2 (2CD)
MELODIYA MEL CD 10 00252 (CD)
BRILLIANT CLASSICS 92615 (10CD)
SE.
<02c7a2a9-35c3-43e0...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
box.
Per the online EG discography:
1/1954 - Moscow
MELODIYA D-02305-06 (LP)
MELODIYA SM 04331-32 (LP)
MONITOR MC 2130 (LP)
MONITOR MCS 2130 (LP)
ODYSSEY Y 34611 (LP)
MELODIYA/WESTMINSTER WGM-8273 (LP)
MELODIYA/WESTMINSTER XWN 18180 (LP)
MONITOR MCD 72048 (CD)
BIANCO E NERO BN 2437/2 (2CD)
MELODIYA MEL CD 10 00252 (CD)
BRILLIANT CLASSICS 92615 (10CD)
SE.
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 25, 2012, 6:11:31 AM9/25/12
to
all the passages (those with and without lots of notes, the loud and the
soft ones) closely together. They are all part of one big concept. However,
even with Gilels there are moments when I lose interest - when nothing
interesting seems to happen, for example between 9:00 and 11:00.
Henk
Miguel Montfort
Sep 25, 2012, 8:28:15 AM9/25/12
to
Steve Emerson wrote:
> He's too polite to weigh in during a case like this -- but another
> Medtner completist here is Miguel. I hope he'll let us know if he's
> aware of other worthy performances.
The one performance I always return to is Irina Mejoueva’s
> He's too polite to weigh in during a case like this -- but another
> Medtner completist here is Miguel. I hope he'll let us know if he's
> aware of other worthy performances.
reading on Wakabayashi WAKA-4107. To my ears until now* the
most exciting account (and utterly convincing, too) commited
to disc.
Miguel Montfort
* my »until now« includes Eckardstein (2007), Favorin (2009),
Fellegi (1989), Hamelin (1996), Lidsky (1995), Milne (1977),
Preiser (2005), Stewart (1997), and Tozer (1997).
JohnGavin
Sep 25, 2012, 10:48:13 AM9/25/12
to
I didn't get the piece at first back then, but it kept haunting me and I returned to it again and again.
A great performance I think, very Russian too.
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 25, 2012, 10:49:54 AM9/25/12
to
to be very popular in Japan. I never heard of her before.
Good of you to mention Eckardstein 2007! It was on my shelves but somehow I
cannot find the time (rather: see it as a waste of time) to catalogue what I
have. I'll have to compare the two versions!
Henk
JohnGavin
Sep 25, 2012, 10:50:15 AM9/25/12
to
CharlesSmith
Sep 25, 2012, 3:47:59 PM9/25/12
to
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 6:48:28 PM UTC+1, HvT wrote:
>
> Berezovsky's version is indeed a sweeping account, in spite of the sound.
>
> Thanks for the URL!
There's a much better Berezovsky recording from Montpellier, 2010. I've uploaded it at:
>
> Berezovsky's version is indeed a sweeping account, in spite of the sound.
>
> Thanks for the URL!
http://www.mediafire.com/?84atcg1rc61svy2
(thanks to Mario T)
Apart from the better sound this seems to me to be far more integrated - less wayward - and yet still a purposeful dramatic interpretation.
>
> I've ordered Milne's complete Medtner sonatas. Till now I've avoided him -
>
> you know my bias against Dutch and English pianists - but John Gavin made me
>
> curious.
>
Charles
SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT
Sep 25, 2012, 5:28:09 PM9/25/12
to
clearer in this version than in the sweeping YT one. Like Hamelin Berezovsky
makes me forget the notes. After hearing this version (thanks to you and to
Mario T. - who is missed in discussions like these) I have the impression
that I finally begin to understand (but I've still a very long way to go)
what John Gavin (and Rachmaninov and Berezovsky and Eckardstein and many
others) hears in this piece.
Best regards,
Henk
Steve Emerson
Sep 25, 2012, 5:58:30 PM9/25/12
to
In article <a947fb56-2fa4-4940...@googlegroups.com>,
> This recording was my first exposure to Medtner in the form of the
> Monitor LP back around 1967. I didn't get the piece at first back
> then, but it kept haunting me and I returned to it again and again. A
> great performance I think, very Russian too.
Extraordinary playing. Must have been a terrific introduction to the
composer. I'd have warmed to him more quickly had it been mine, I think.
SE.
JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:06:54 AM UTC-4, Steve Emerson wrote:
> > In article
> >
> > <02c7a2a9-35c3-43e0...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Just posted at YT , Gilels live in 1954 , in the Op.22 G minor Sonata,
> > > one of Medtner's great ones, and a " wind " itself :
> > >
> >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl-wMyox7QU
> >
> > Which has been released, most recently, in a Gilels Brilliant Classics
> > box.
> >
> > Per the online EG discography:
> >
> > 1/1954 - Moscow
> >
> > MELODIYA D-02305-06 (LP)
(etc.)
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:06:54 AM UTC-4, Steve Emerson wrote:
> > In article
> >
> > <02c7a2a9-35c3-43e0...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Just posted at YT , Gilels live in 1954 , in the Op.22 G minor Sonata,
> > > one of Medtner's great ones, and a " wind " itself :
> > >
> >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl-wMyox7QU
> >
> > Which has been released, most recently, in a Gilels Brilliant Classics
> > box.
> >
> > Per the online EG discography:
> >
> > 1/1954 - Moscow
> >
> > MELODIYA D-02305-06 (LP)
> This recording was my first exposure to Medtner in the form of the
> Monitor LP back around 1967. I didn't get the piece at first back
> then, but it kept haunting me and I returned to it again and again. A
> great performance I think, very Russian too.
composer. I'd have warmed to him more quickly had it been mine, I think.
SE.
John Wiser
Sep 25, 2012, 6:14:36 PM9/25/12
to
"Steve Emerson" <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-619E89....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
Your introduction was, hm, I believe, was it not, Zhukov?
Who is still not on my horizon
Mine was Moiseiwitsch and this very same G minor Sonata
on four sides of plum-label HMVs, encountered around 1948.
After that, the concertos came as a searing disappointment.
JDW
news:emersn-619E89....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
Who is still not on my horizon
Mine was Moiseiwitsch and this very same G minor Sonata
on four sides of plum-label HMVs, encountered around 1948.
After that, the concertos came as a searing disappointment.
JDW
Steve Emerson
Sep 25, 2012, 6:32:22 PM9/25/12
to
In article <m1q8s.1050$do6...@newsfe19.iad>,
No-sir, I didn't hear Zhukov until recently (and was favorably
impressed). The Moiseiwitsch I heard some time ago and still have, ditto
Gilels's Sonata Reminisc., something by Ginzburg, something by Richter.
None of them converted me. Which didn't bode well, given their prowess
as musicians. But others (works, performances) have since brought me
around somewhat.
SE.
impressed). The Moiseiwitsch I heard some time ago and still have, ditto
Gilels's Sonata Reminisc., something by Ginzburg, something by Richter.
None of them converted me. Which didn't bode well, given their prowess
as musicians. But others (works, performances) have since brought me
around somewhat.
SE.
JohnGavin
Sep 25, 2012, 6:53:03 PM9/25/12
to
John Wiser
Sep 25, 2012, 7:23:12 PM9/25/12
to
"Steve Emerson" <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-8017FB....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
I suspect that my early encounter with Moiseiwitsch
amounted to coming in on a high point of his oeuvre
AND his discography...much subsequent exposure
has not been as impressive. But a lot of pianists suddenly
like him, don't they? That somehow fails to cut ice with me.
JDW
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