Old/new Brandenburg Concertos
Pete
violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
liked much. Any other suggestions? Please do me a favor and tell
me the year of original recording and digital code (AAD, ADD, or
DDD). Thanks.
Pete
John Thomas
"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote:
Since I no longer have it (I now prefer period instruments) I can't
give you the data you want, but I think Menuhin's set, now at super
budget price, would fulfill your requirements. It was my favorite in
pre-HIP days.
--
-Regards,
John Thomas
jwth...@sonic.net
Arthur La Porta
Karajan's old recording, from the 60's, was not at all bad. There were
some extraordinary things in there, particularly in some of the slow
movements. However, I think the best non HIP is the recording by I
Musici, made by Philips around 1960. Gorgeous performances. However, I
like HIP best, and none (that I have heard) come close to Harnoncourt,
the digital recordings from the early 1980's on Teldec. So many of the
brittish HIP groups seem to adopt the "sewing machine" approach, with
extremely rigid phrasing.. Harnoncourt's Concentus Musicus Wien employs
great freedom in phrasing and articulation. Without any doubt, the best
ever recorded (IMO).
LaVirtuosa
l"Ecole Normale de Musique, Paris (1931-1933) EMI Classics, Mono, ADD.
*******Val
Pete wrote,
Raymond Hall
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
If you want a briskish version, full of life and character, and using modern
instruments (actually David Munrow is featured as one of the players), then
Raymond Leppard/English Chamber orchestra is well worth considering. My
copies are on two single Philips Solo CDs (442 386-2, and 442 387-2), and
are well filled too, with two violin concertos on one (with Grumiaux), and
the Concerto in A minor for harpsichord, violin, flute and strings on the
other CD (José Luis Garcia, Richard Adeney and others).
The notes give 1975/1983 as recording dates, and both CDs are ADD.
Whether they are still available, is however, another story.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links :
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You may want to give Goebel/MAK a shot (Archiv, DDD, 1987). Period
instruments, certainly, but the horns are fantastic in their role in the
first concerto. A USENET search on Google will give you a good sense on
how people vote (thumbs up or down) on the recording.
--
Mark K. Ehlert
To reply via e-mail, X = 3
Simon Roberts
"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
One option would be to buy a less expensive HIP set and supplement it
with an inexpensive non-HIP set. My two favorite HIP recordings are
both mid-price or less (MAK/DG/Archiv and Berlin AAM/Harmonia Mundi; the
horns in the latter are stunning, though I guess you may not like them).
The only non-HIP Brandenburgs I really like are Leppard's, recorded in
the late 1970s - they've been on CD at mid-price or less, but I don't
know about current availability.
Simon
Bill Carroll
1.A set buy Tafelmusik, a Toronto-based period instruments group whose
version is fabulous and world acclaimed. The liner notes are fabulous.
2. A set by Trevor Pinnock with his English Concert. Very nice stuff. Very,
very nice stuff.
3, A set with Karl Richter from the Karl Richter Edition containing 19
CDs
issued by Teldec in 1995. This set is truly stunning. I like all three sets
but this one is the most powerful.
Bill Carroll, Toronto
"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Praetorius
> Pete wrote:
> | I have mixed feelings about period instruments. I tend to like the
> | violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
> | the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
> | Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
> | of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
> | liked much. Any other suggestions? Please do me a favor and tell
> | me the year of original recording and digital code (AAD, ADD, or
> | DDD). Thanks.
>
> If you want a briskish version, full of life and character, and using
modern
> instruments (actually David Munrow is featured as one of the players),
then
> Raymond Leppard/English Chamber orchestra is well worth considering. My
> copies are on two single Philips Solo CDs (442 386-2, and 442 387-2), and
> are well filled too, with two violin concertos on one (with Grumiaux), and
> the Concerto in A minor for harpsichord, violin, flute and strings on the
> other CD (José Luis Garcia, Richard Adeney and others).
>
> The notes give 1975/1983 as recording dates, and both CDs are ADD.
>
> Whether they are still available, is however, another story.
Another vote for the Leppard/ECO on Philips. I prefer the Brandenburgs on
"modern" instruments, and I find the Leppard strikes the right balance
between use of these with an acknowledgement of appropriate performance
practice.
The Karajan was my first set of Brandenburgs (on LP). I had just started
buying classical records and didn't know any better; I was very impressed
with the oversized blue fabric-coated box, which I took (with the price) as
an
indication of inherent quality. I haven't listened to them in a while, but I
liked
the 3rd (although it was played more like the Holberg Suite than Bach; in
the
2nd, the trumpet player is buried in the background, as though HvK knew he
had to include the part but really was annoyed by having to do so)].
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen
Paul Goldstein
Munch, Goberman, and best of all, Szymon Goldberg.
Paul Goldstein
Philip Peters
Paul Goldstein wrote:
Ah! Finally, a kindred soul! The Goldberg Brandenburgs are really among the very
best. They were reissued on Philips and were very cheap here (Dutch Masters
series - the orchestra is the Dutch Chamber Orchestra of which Goldberg was the
conductor way back in the fifties when I grew up around the corner from the
Amsterdam Concertgebouw).
Philip
Sacqueboutier
The horn players in Pinnock's recording are quite good and
play with a fine tone that is often missing from many
period players. The trumpeter is, IMHO, unmatched.
The rest of the set is of a very high level of execution and
the sound is fine. If I could have only one set of
Brandenburgs (what a horrid thought!), this would be it.
Karajan is painfully slow and thick in this music. I don't
really care for Klemperer or Casals, either. They are MUCH
better than Karajan, but still much too slow for my taste.
Marriner is very clean, very nice, very...well...he's just
very...dull. You may like it. I don't.
I musici on Philips is a well executed set and it's cheap.
The soloists are an all star cast including Herman Bauman
and Maurice Andre. This one may work for you.
Karl Ristenpart recorded a wonderful set in the 1960s (I think).
It's hard to find, but it is on CD. If you insist on modern
instruments, this is the way to go.
Avoid Harnoncourt's sets. While I still think his 1962 5th is
among the finest (and my personal favorite for the flair given
the harpsichord cadenza), the rest of the set is easily dismissed.
His trumpeter is nothing short of laughable!
His second set (1982) is just too weird.
I was disappointed in Pickett's set. The ensemble sounds just
a bit more scrappy than Pinnock's.
Hogwood's set is good, but only as an alternative. He uses the
original versions of all of the concerti. The harpsichord cadenza
in the 5th, is only 11 bars.
--
AAAAAHHHHH! The atmosphere! AAAAAAAHHHHHH!
Don Patterson
* DCP Music Printing
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* don...@olg.com
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Arthur La Porta
> For subtlety and (successful) individualism, Cortot conducting the Orchestre de
> l"Ecole Normale de Musique, Paris (1931-1933) EMI Classics, Mono, ADD.
>
> *
You must be kidding. That has to be one of the ten worst audio recordings I have
ever heard!
LaVirtuosa
***************Val
John Gavin
days. The ensemble is small, and includes such celebrities as Sylvia
Marlowe and Fernando Valenti. This was available for a while on Lys.
Mike JF
Pete <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
My favorite non-HIP Brandenburgs:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000291N/qid=1008482965/sr=1-16/ref
=sr_1_10_16/102-9777351-0802514
Philharmonia Virtuosi
Richard Kapp, dir
originally released on: CBS Masterworks 2LP [1984] (M2X 39358)
apparently now available on CD at above amazon link
Do not bother with Karajan at all. Horrible tempos and other problems.
However Richard Kapp got it right!! This enesmble is not a period
performance but they are period-aware and make it sound a little bit like a
period performance but with gorgeous tones and no pitch problems from any
section. In fact, trumpet player Mark Gould is so good, I used to listen to
this at full volume with headphones, I loved it so much!!
I have the LP and love it. I assume the CD is the very same, although I
haven't heard it. It's almost sure the CD is the same recording because I
see two instrumentalists at amazon and they are the same on the LP I have.
Thus, it's the same.
Regarding performance style, here's what it says on the back of the LP:
"Philharmonia Virtuosi is an ensemble that performs at twentyith century
pitch. We are not a group dedicated to the recreation of authentic Baroque
instrumentation, pitch and practise. However, we have made specific
instrumental choices that affect the timbre of our performances of the
Brandenburg Concertos. Specifically, in the First Concerto a small violin,
tuned up a minor third, was used, both to approximate the brighter timbre of
the ciolin piccolo and to enable Ruth Waterman to play Bach's chordal
writing on open strings, as obviously intended. Recorders are used in
Concerto 2 and 4 in place of transverse flutes. And in Concerto No 6 two
gambas are used, as Bach specifies, to distinguish timbres among the string
groups."
This wonderful LP was recorded in 1984 and again it looks to me that the CD
is probably the very same recording, although the CD says it was made in
1994, that's just the date of the CD, not the recording, which is 1984.
Audio quality is phenomenal!! This recording in 1984 has digital quality
audio and I can attest it's CD quality audio. On the liner notes of the LP
it says "Digitally recorded using the JVC digital system". The mastering of
this LP is phenomenal as well! In fact, for audio, I consider it one of the
top 10 best recordings I've ever heard!!
Mike
W. J. McCutcheon
Pete <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Brandenburgs, about 20 years old but DDD, also available in a 3-disc set
with the Orchestral Suites (which are ADD).
-- Bill McCutcheon
John Bodnar
> violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
> the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
> Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
> of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
> liked much. Any other suggestions?
Well, the Busch Chamber Players' Brandenburgs/Orchestral Suites on an
EMI 3 CD set (from the early 1930's) were available at Berkshire last
I checked. This was the only set of Brandenburgs I had for a really
long time, because the MAK set noted in previous posts really turned
me off from period instruments performances for a while.
Since then, I've found the Brandenburg Consort set on Hyperion (now a
Dyad, I think) and the Brandenburg Collegium set (Anthony Newman's
group) on Sony (budget priced) and Newport Classic (full price but
seen at Berkshire, IIRC).
As for other modern groups, I really like Philharmonia Virtuosi set on
ESS.A.Y. (as opposed to anything earlier they did for CBS/Columbia).
The Ristenpart set was released on Accord eons ago in CD time (mid- to
late-1980's), but I've never found it. I actually picked up these
performances on a Checkmate LP set at the local KMFA record sale here
in Austin and am looking forward to listening to it.
John Bodnar
- obligatory plug for the Austin Symphonic Band
- for our next event, visit http://www.asband.org/
notrump15-17
"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Neil
>Karajan is painfully slow and thick in this music. I don't
>really care for Klemperer or Casals, either. They are MUCH
>better than Karajan, but still much too slow for my taste.
>Marriner is very clean, very nice, very...well...he's just
>very...dull. You may like it. I don't.
I'm partial to the Klemp ones I know. The 5th jollies along very happily.
I've got pinnock's set which are very well played and splendidly recorded.
Neil
wrote:
>Anthony Newman & Co. on CBS ca. 1970 ergo not DDD
there was an old set on Saga which was very good but for the life of me I can't
remember the name of the conductor...Harry something with a german chamber
orchestra ??
I've got Horenstein's on VOX but I don't think they are that special and the
recording is pretty thin and tinny which does detract especially because the HIP
performances sound so georgeous these days.
Neil
wrote:
>Anthony Newman & Co. on CBS ca. 1970 ergo not DDD
>there was an old set on Saga which was very good but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the conductor...
>Harry something with a german chamber orchestra ??
Harry Newstone ... that's the chap. Sounds like a character in the British post
war B & W movie, an a young Oxford don, tweeds, pipe and a sports car zooming
off to luncheon at the Spread Eagle.
Philip Peters
Neil wrote:
I don't think the Busch version has been mentioned here. IMO they are among the best
of the non-HIP versions.
Philip
Pete
I found another CD by Philharmonia Virtuosi conducted by Richard Kapp at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000083M/qid=1008518779/sr=1-2/ref=
sr_1_4_2/002-3424969-7677610
The CD cover looks similar to an anthrax letter mailed to Bach. :-)
The two CDs seems to be almost the same, same ensemble, same conductor,
both released in 1994. Your reference is on Sony, while the one I found is
on Essay Recordings. Do you know the difference between the two CDs?
The Sony CD is $14, while the Essay CD is $24.
Pete
vaneyes
>
>"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote in message
>news:zSMS7.6565$mF.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>| I have mixed feelings about period instruments. I tend to like the
>| violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
>| the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
>| Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
>| of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
>| liked much. Any other suggestions? Please do me a favor and tell
>| me the year of original recording and digital code (AAD, ADD, or
>| DDD). Thanks.
>
>If you want a briskish version, full of life and character, and using modern
>instruments (actually David Munrow is featured as one of the players), then
>Raymond Leppard/English Chamber orchestra is well worth considering. My
>copies are on two single Philips Solo CDs (442 386-2, and 442 387-2), and
>are well filled too, with two violin concertos on one (with Grumiaux), and
>the Concerto in A minor for harpsichord, violin, flute and strings on the
>other CD (José Luis Garcia, Richard Adeney and others).
>
>The notes give 1975/1983 as recording dates, and both CDs are ADD.
>
>Whether they are still available, is however, another story.
I like Leppard, too. Weren't they reissued on Philips Duo?
ECO/Britten is another recommendation...Double Decca.
Regards
Richard
Lincoln Center, featuring a star-studded ensemble (Joseph Silverstein,
Ani Kavafian, Fred Sherry, William Purvis, Ransom Wilson, Edgar Meyer,
etc.). DDD, recorded around 1996.
Pete
answer from Richard Kapp himself, on Sunday no less:
"The SONY recordings dates to 1984; Ruth Waterman was concertmaster. The
ESS.A.Y version was done 7 years afterwards and is, we feel, far
superior...better intonation, better playing in a variety of ways.
Concertmaster was Paul Peabody. ESS.A.Y offers the 2 cd set for $25 if you
order by phone to 1 800 97-ESSAY or by fax to 1 914 693 7040."
I will buy the later version.
Pete
>
> I found another CD by Philharmonia Virtuosi conducted by Richard Kapp at
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000083M/qid=1008518779/sr=1-2/ref=
> sr_1_4_2/002-3424969-7677610
>
> The CD cover looks similar to an anthrax letter mailed to Bach. :-)
>
> The two CDs seems to be almost the same, same ensemble, same conductor,
> both released in 1994. Your reference is on Sony, while the one I found
is
> on Essay Recordings. Do you know the difference between the two CDs?
> The Sony CD is $14, while the Essay CD is $24.
>
John Thomas
"Pete" <nospa...@please.com> wrote:
> I sent an email to ESS.A.Y Recordings and received the following
> answer from Richard Kapp himself, on Sunday no less:
> "The SONY recordings dates to 1984; Ruth Waterman was concertmaster. The
> ESS.A.Y version was done 7 years afterwards and is, we feel, far
> superior...better intonation, better playing in a variety of ways.
> Concertmaster was Paul Peabody. ESS.A.Y offers the 2 cd set for $25 if you
> order by phone to 1 800 97-ESSAY or by fax to 1 914 693 7040."
>
> I will buy the later version.
Kapp is the founder of ESS.A.Y and a talented pianist besides. This
is one of those small labels, like Sergey Schepkin's Ongaku, that carry
outstanding performances by fine musicians who haven't benefited from
the publicity machines of the corporate giants. If you're happy with
this CD, try Mela Tenenbaum's Bach S & P's and violin sonatas with Kapp
on piano in the latter.
--
-Regards,
John Thomas
jwth...@sonic.net
Zero the Hero
> The horn players in Pinnock's recording are quite good and
> play with a fine tone that is often missing from many
> period players. The trumpeter is, IMHO, unmatched.
That's probably why I like it so much.
> The rest of the set is of a very high level of execution and
> the sound is fine. If I could have only one set of
> Brandenburgs (what a horrid thought!), this would be it.
Same here.
> Hogwood's set is good, but only as an alternative. He uses the
> original versions of all of the concerti. The harpsichord cadenza
> in the 5th, is only 11 bars.
Which is a relief, sometimes.
--
Jason Ellerbee - jel...@unf.edu
DREAMS WIDE AWAKE radio show - http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html
George Murnu
>
> I have mixed feelings about period instruments. I tend to like the
> violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
> the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
> Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
> of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
> liked much. Any other suggestions? Please do me a favor and tell
> me the year of original recording and digital code (AAD, ADD, or
> DDD). Thanks.
>
Old: Busch.
Newer: Ristenpart.
New: (???)
Regards,
George
Margaret Mikulska
and Klemperer. The Brandenburgs should be played ponderously. In many
recordings, Marriner tends to be "correct" in many respects (I don't
mean HIP or anything like that) - this is probably what you call "clean"
and "nice" - and as a result he's at best not very exciting and at worst
simply dull.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
long. It's the highlight of the whole cycle. You can never have too
much of harpsichord playing.
-Margaret
Zero the Hero wrote:
>
> Sacqueboutier steps up to the mic:
>
Richard
Lincoln Center, featuring a star-studded ensemble (Joseph Silverstein,
Ani Kavafian, Fred Sherry, William Purvis, Ransom Wilson, Edgar Meyer,
etc.). DDD, recorded around 1996.
> I have mixed feelings about period instruments. I tend to like the
Margaret Mikulska
horns" in the first, much earlier recording?
-M
John Thomas
These come highly recommended by a friend..
Sacqueboutier
>
> I share your enthusiasm about Pinnock, FWIW, and the dislike of Karajan
> and Klemperer. The Brandenburgs should be played ponderously.
If you share my enthusiasm for Pinnock, surely you meant to
write: "...should NEVER be played ponderously".
;-)
Rajeev Aloysius
> violins, as modern ones sound too smooth for my taste. However,
> the period horns grate on my ears. I cannot listen to Brandenburg
> Concertos played on period horns. That said, I'd like to find a CD
> of the Brandenburg Concertos. Karajan's version seems to be not
> liked much. Any other suggestions? Please do me a favor and tell
> me the year of original recording and digital code (AAD, ADD, or
> DDD). Thanks.
>
Soloists are not identified, probably drawn from within the orchestra.
I don't have my CD to hand at work to get the original recording date;
but you will not be disappointed with the sound. The tempi are
generally very swift indeed.
EMI Forte ADD (2CD, includes 3 Christmas Concerti by other composers)
Regards
Rajeev Aloysius
rajeev@!nospam.starmail.com
Jon Bell
Pete <nospa...@please.com> wrote:
> [...] I'd like to find a CD of the Brandenburg Concertos.
For a long time, the only set of Brandenburgs that I had was Pinnock's
(which I enjoy), but it's a period-instrument set, which you may not go
for. Nevertheless, Pinnock and his English Concert are generally one of
the less abrasive of the period-instrument bands, so if you haven't heard
any of Pinnock's other recordings, you might want to try these anyway.
Now, I'm keeping an eye out for other sets, because I decided that if I've
got a dozen or so Sibelius Fifths or whatever, I ought to have more than
one set of Brandenburgs. Recently I picked up the I Musici set on
Eloquence, a new budget label from Universal (who now have the Decca, DG
and Philips catalogues). It's on two CDs (I paid $7 apiece), with a
couple of other Bach concertos thrown in. The recordings are from the
mid-1960s, and in this incarnation are ADD. They sound good to me, but
then I don't have much to compare them with. For what it's worth...
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
John Grabowski
>>Hogwood's set is good, but only as an alternative. He uses the
>>original versions of all of the concerti. The harpsichord cadenza
>>in the 5th, is only 11 bars.
>>
>
> Which is a relief, sometimes.
>
>
Heavens, why???
John
--
For in much wisdom is much grief;
And he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Ecclesiastes 18
Ramon Khalona
>
>Karl Ristenpart recorded a wonderful set in the 1960s (I think).
>It's hard to find, but it is on CD. If you insist on modern
>instruments, this is the way to go.
How right you are!
Ramon
------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to rkhalona at adnc dot com
W. J. McCutcheon
> I wrote:
>
> > I don't think there's anything grating about the period horns in
Pinnock's
> > Brandenburgs, about 20 years old but DDD, also available in a 3-disc
set
> > with the Orchestral Suites (which are ADD).
> > -- Bill McCutcheon
Margaret Mikulska replied:
> The DDD must be the second recording by Harnoncourt; aren't the "grating
> horns" in the first, much earlier recording?
>
> -M
I dunno about Harnoncourt; I was talking about Pinnock. His (Pinnock's)
are from 1979-80 (Suites) and 1982 (Brandenburgs).
-- Bill McCutcheon
John Thomas
Ramon Khalona <rkha...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
> >===== Original Message From don...@olg.com =====
> >
> >Karl Ristenpart recorded a wonderful set in the 1960s (I think).
> >It's hard to find, but it is on CD. If you insist on modern
> >instruments, this is the way to go.
>
> How right you are!
I'd agree, and it's the only non-HIP recording of the B'burgs I still
own. But AFAIK it's only available as part of an Allegro 5-CD box with
the Orchestral Suites and various concertos sold only in Europe. But
that box itself is cheap and worth getting; I found mine at Alapage.
Mike JF
John Thomas <no-...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:no-spam-73ED25...@typhoon.sonic.net...
I also have the violin sonatas with Kapp on piano and highly recommend it as
well. Pete, I have not heard the second Kapp recording, only the first.
One reviewer at amazon didn't like it too much, another called it a 'hidden
treasure'. Well, I consider the first Kapp recording (from 1984) a real
hidden treasure. Now, I need to get the second recording as check it out!
Mike
Margaret Mikulska
-M
Margaret Mikulska
in each.
-M
Margaret Mikulska
East Germany which was among my first own LPs. The performers used
period instruments, and the set was on VEB Deutsche Schallplatten ETERNA
(where else?). It should, therefore, show up on Berlin Classics, or
even on Cappriccio, but I don't think it has. Has anybody seen such
beast? I don't recall the conductor or the name of the ensemble. They
might have used instruments from the Leipzig museum of musical
instruments, as some East German performers have done.
-Margaret
Raymond Hall
news:3C1DA7D3...@silvertone.princeton.edu...
| Well, I must have been distracted: two postings in a row with a mistake
| in each.
Age doth creepeth up on all of uth Margaret.
Actually, I have just got the Pinnock Brandenburg 4, 5 and 6 out of the
library on an Archiv CD. Check what all of the others are waffling about.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/tassiedevil2.htm
# Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney
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Jan Depondt
"Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:9vka23$g1944$1...@ID-101911.news.dfncis.de...
| "Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote in message
| news:3C1DA7D3...@silvertone.princeton.edu...
| | Well, I must have been distracted: two postings in a row with a mistake
| | in each.
|
| Age doth creepeth up on all of uth Margaret.
|
| Actually, I have just got the Pinnock Brandenburg 4, 5 and 6 out of the
| library on an Archiv CD. Check what all of the others are waffling about.
|
Actually I've listened at Brandenburg 1 by Harnoncourt 2 (the digital remake).
Many times the piece was not very recognizable as Bach's Brandenburg 1. Does
Harnoncourt use an Urfassung? Or is he just prooving every page can sound
"different" (than "usual")?
--
Jan Depondt
Simon Roberts
>On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:38:23 -0500, "notrump15-17" <notrum...@erols.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Anthony Newman & Co. on CBS ca. 1970 ergo not DDD
>
>>there was an old set on Saga which was very good but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the conductor...
>>Harry something with a german chamber orchestra ??
>
>Harry Newstone ... that's the chap. Sounds like a character in the British post
>war B & W movie, an a young Oxford don, tweeds, pipe and a sports car zooming
>off to luncheon at the Spread Eagle.
>
Interesting; I always imagined old Oxford don, tweeds, pipe and a Morris
Minor sputtering off to buy some string at the local hardware store.
Simon
Simon Roberts
> Has anyone heard IL GIARDINO ARMONICO on Teldec in the Brandenburgs?
>These come highly recommended by a friend..
Expecting something along the lines of their superb Vivaldi recordings I
was a little disappointed - they seem to have sobered up a bit for Bach.
Not quite as "extreme" as MAK and La Stravaganza, a bit cooler than Berlin
AAM, but still at the livelier end of the HIP range. I prefer the other
three I've mentioned, but not many others.
Simon
Flambongoose
Koopman and Helmuth Rilling.
I especially like Rilling's approach.
Mikel.
"Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> schreef in bericht
news:3C1DA97A...@silvertone.princeton.edu...
Raymond Hall
news:9vkjk9$ft5bm$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de...
Not sure Jan, but I didn't think he sounded all that different from many
other versions.
Having listened to Pinnock's #4 and #5 last night, I found myself wondering
what was new that Pinnock had really added. Pacing was more or less OK
(could have been a tad slower), but the violin phrasing in the first
movement of the 4th was too stabbed and quite jagged imho (just plain ugly),
and in the final movement, the recording suddenly brings up *very close*
some awfully loud twittering by the violins for several bars.
The 5th was on a better level, and the extended harpsichord solo worth the
admission alone. At least the recording captured the sound of the
harpsichord very well, and I found this concerto much more successfully
performed than the 4th.
The flute playing was excellent in both, and especially in the 4th, where
the flute line could be heard majestically, but slightly subdued.
In short, I wouldn't rush out and buy it. The fact that Pinnock uses
original instruments has no bearing on my opinion. Just a slightly different
texture to my ears. In a bargain bin I'd probably give it some thought. Just
my opinion though. In many ways, I yearn for a slower paced set of
Brandenburgs, and with more character.
Philip Peters
John Thomas wrote:
> Has anyone heard IL GIARDINO ARMONICO on Teldec in the Brandenburgs?
> These come highly recommended by a friend..
If you think Goebel is too slow, try this one.
Philip
Margaret Mikulska
Raymond Hall wrote:
> In short, I wouldn't rush out and buy it. The fact that Pinnock uses
> original instruments has no bearing on my opinion. Just a slightly different
> texture to my ears. In a bargain bin I'd probably give it some thought. Just
> my opinion though. In many ways, I yearn for a slower paced set of
> Brandenburgs, and with more character.
I definitely would, if I didn't have them already for years. It's a
splendid performance. Hotly recommended. It has a great lot of
character, and the tempi are just right. You wouldn't like to go back
to Karajan or Klemperer?
-Margaret
Sacqueboutier
The twittering is very rapid bowing notated by Bach and is
in the solo violin part. With the soloist's aggressive playing
style here, it does make for some bracing moments.
Jan Depondt
|
| Having listened to Pinnock's #4 and #5 last night, I found myself wondering
| what was new that Pinnock had really added.
Added to what, or to who?
| In short, I wouldn't rush out and buy it. The fact that Pinnock uses
| original instruments has no bearing on my opinion. Just a slightly different
| texture to my ears. In a bargain bin I'd probably give it some thought. Just
| my opinion though. In many ways, I yearn for a slower paced set of
| Brandenburgs, and with more character.
|
These recordings date from 20 years back now, and since then there have been a
lot of other good - or maybe better - recordings, and of course there's now,
20 years later, no reason to "rush out and buy it" (you should have done that
in 1982). But still reason enough to buy it, if you see it as a bargain. It
should be between the best of the bargains (well, it has been already, in the
Bach Year 1985).
--
Jan Depondt
Raymond Hall
|
| "Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
| news:9vlv1o$g377h$1...@ID-101911.news.dfncis.de...
|
| |
| | Having listened to Pinnock's #4 and #5 last night, I found myself
wondering
| | what was new that Pinnock had really added.
|
| Added to what, or to who?
The music of course. Granted that with the Brandenburg concertos, this isn't
music that lends itself to wild ranges of interpretation. There is an
element of the sewing-machine clickety-click with this music.
Maybe Fluffy had a point after all, trying to beautify it, and slow it down
in order to have the room for more expressive devices. I'm slipping on my
running shoes now ... but dammit, why should I? I think I may have a valid
point.
| | In short, I wouldn't rush out and buy it. The fact that Pinnock uses
| | original instruments has no bearing on my opinion. Just a slightly
different
| | texture to my ears. In a bargain bin I'd probably give it some thought.
Just
| | my opinion though. In many ways, I yearn for a slower paced set of
| | Brandenburgs, and with more character.
| |
|
| These recordings date from 20 years back now, and since then there have
been a
| lot of other good - or maybe better - recordings, and of course there's
now,
| 20 years later, no reason to "rush out and buy it" (you should have done
that
| in 1982). But still reason enough to buy it, if you see it as a bargain.
It
| should be between the best of the bargains (well, it has been already, in
the
| Bach Year 1985).
I never said Pinnock's #4 and #5 weren't good. I was just expecting
something more sensational.
Simon Roberts
> "Jan Depondt" <jd...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
> news:9vnucc$gq9ib$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de...
> |
> | "Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> | news:9vlv1o$g377h$1...@ID-101911.news.dfncis.de...
> |
> | |
> | | Having listened to Pinnock's #4 and #5 last night, I found myself
> wondering
> | | what was new that Pinnock had really added.
> |
> | Added to what, or to who?
>
> The music of course. Granted that with the Brandenburg concertos, this
isn't
> music that lends itself to wild ranges of interpretation. There is an
> element of the sewing-machine clickety-click with this music.
Only if it's badly performed....
>
> Maybe Fluffy had a point after all, trying to beautify it, and slow it
down
> in order to have the room for more expressive devices.
Of course, it's possible to slow it down and express almost nothing
beyond suavete, which is pretty much what he did, I think. It's also
possible, as others have shown, to speed it up (compared to Pinnock) and
express more....
Simon (who agrees with you that, aside from slightly different
sonorities, there's nothing new about what Pinnock does)
vaneyes
I don't care for 4, 5, or 6, by anybody.
And, I like HvK in St. Matthew Passion.
Regards
Paul Kintzele
A quick heads-up: Berkshire is selling the two-disc set of Brandenburg
Concertos from the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (Harmonia Mundi) for
the amazingly cheap price of $7.98. Mine arrived today, and it sounds
as good as I was hoping.
Paul
Matthew B. Tepper
news:3C202A94...@english.upenn.edu:
I bought these shortly after they came out, and this set (in that edition)
would have to count as my entry in the "shortest CD that was worth it"
thread. I urge all others to try this set; it is a lot of fun.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Jan Depondt
| "Jan Depondt" <jd...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
| news:9vnucc$gq9ib$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de...
| |
| | "Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
| | news:9vlv1o$g377h$1...@ID-101911.news.dfncis.de...
| |
| | |
| | | Having listened to Pinnock's #4 and #5 last night, I found myself
| wondering
| | | what was new that Pinnock had really added.
| |
| | Added to what, or to who?
|
| The music of course. Granted that with the Brandenburg concertos, this isn't
| music that lends itself to wild ranges of interpretation. There is an
| element of the sewing-machine clickety-click with this music.
|
| Maybe Fluffy had a point after all, trying to beautify it, and slow it down
| in order to have the room for more expressive devices. I'm slipping on my
| running shoes now ... but dammit, why should I? I think I may have a valid
| point.
Shure. Never seen an invalid point from your's.
But adding something to the music is not always someones goal. And it is not
always wanted or required for a good performance.
'Jazzifications' of this music did add something. And it's my opinion that the
whole "HIP movement" did add a lot, in the way of performing.
|
[....]
|
| I never said Pinnock's #4 and #5 weren't good. I was just expecting
| something more sensational.
|
Maybe that's not the right thing to expect, from pieces that are recorded more
than hundred times, AND many times after Pinnock recorded them. In that time
(when these recordings were made) they gave the sensation of something very
good that was not recorded like that before (well, they gave that to me). That
feeling cannot be repeated; not to me (but I still enjoy these recordings);
and not to people who know many other recordings made since.
Why exactly did you expect something "sensational"? Because somebody here said
they are? You're kidding ;-)
--
Jan Depondt
Raymond Hall
Ah, I agree, but I never suggested adding anything. But a different
viewpoint, a new angle, something to rejuvenate what is really quite fun
music imho.
| 'Jazzifications' of this music did add something. And it's my opinion that
the
| whole "HIP movement" did add a lot, in the way of performing.
The Jacques Loussier (sp) singers did some wonderful vocal Bach. Actually
saw them in concert many moons ago.
| |
| [....]
| |
| | I never said Pinnock's #4 and #5 weren't good. I was just expecting
| | something more sensational.
| |
|
| Maybe that's not the right thing to expect, from pieces that are recorded
more
| than hundred times, AND many times after Pinnock recorded them. In that
time
| (when these recordings were made) they gave the sensation of something
very
| good that was not recorded like that before (well, they gave that to me).
That
| feeling cannot be repeated; not to me (but I still enjoy these
recordings);
| and not to people who know many other recordings made since.
Leppard did more or less the same things BEFORE Pinnock with modern
instruments, so I fail to see why Pinnock should necessarily be held up as
an exemplar of the modern tradition.
| Why exactly did you expect something "sensational"? Because somebody here
said
| they are? You're kidding ;-)
No. Because there seemed to be a concensus from many posters (many of whose
opinions I respect), that leaned toward Pinnock. In reality, I don't get an
extra special buzz from Pinnock, that I have already got many times from
Leppard. And by sensational, I really mean "something different". Even
Fluffy dared to be different <g>
Hou Fang-Lin
Baroque
violin playing and the horns in #1 are hardly noisy. The trumpet solo in
#2, though,
is a bit underpowered and may be distracting to some tastes (such as mine).
Else
where, though, it is a very nice set.
"Flambongoose" <Mi...@burzum.com> wrote in message
news:72vT7.4$Eq5...@castor.casema.net...
Jan Depondt
| said
| | they are? You're kidding ;-)
|
| No. Because there seemed to be a concensus from many posters (many of whose
| opinions I respect), that leaned toward Pinnock. In reality, I don't get an
| extra special buzz from Pinnock, that I have already got many times from
| Leppard. And by sensational, I really mean "something different". Even
| Fluffy dared to be different <g>
|
Many people can recommend many recordings, not because of being sensational,
but because of being favorite, very good (not only for hearing it once, but
repeatedly), etcetera. It was you having some expectations about something
sensational. See for example the postings by Sacqueboutier ("The rest of the
set is of a very high level of execution and the sound is fine. If I could
have only one set of Brandenburgs (what a horrid thought!), this would be
it.") or Bill Carroll ("Very nice stuff. Very, very nice stuff."). Nobody told
you to rush to the store because of someting sensational ;-)
And some sensational recordings become boring very easily after hearing them
twice. "Sensational" is not a synonym for "good". Of course, if there's a
sensational set of Brandeburg concertos, I would like to hear them. If you say
'Leppard is sensational' I'll try to find them.
--
Jan Depondt
Raymond Hall
But Jan, please don't get too hung up (too obsessed) about my use of the
word sensational. It is used very often in a slightly rhetorical way. It was
used loosely in any case. I never really (in all honesty) expected to hear
anything different from Pinnock than what I actually heard. It wasn't
mind-blowingly different from many other versions I have heard. Very good,
yes, but good amongst many dozens of other good performances.
In my opinion, there aren't too many ways one can interpret the Brandenburgs
anyway. Sure, texture (individual solo instruments) can be different, and so
can tempi. Leppard isn't the pinnacle for me either. It is just that I get
all I want from this music from Leppard. What I am really looking for is an
alternative approach, (difficult with this music), a slower tempo, with more
freedom to improvise, short of giving the music to a bunch of expert jazz
musicians. At least they would make the Brandenburgs swing <g>
| And some sensational recordings become boring very easily after hearing
them
| twice. "Sensational" is not a synonym for "good". Of course, if there's a
| sensational set of Brandeburg concertos, I would like to hear them. If you
say
| 'Leppard is sensational' I'll try to find them.
Doh! Sigh !!! Double sigh !!!!!
Forget the word sensational Jan. It doesn't exist. If you come across
Leppard, then by all means give him a listen. But he isn't mandatory by any
means, and I wouldn't bust a gut getting his version, which is very good,
among many dozens and dozens of other good versions including Pinnock.
Frankly, the music is way too over-rated anyway imho, and I reckon Vivaldi's
4 Seasons is better music.
Try Fluffy. Try MJQ (only joking). Maybe I will too <g>
Jan Depondt
|
| Forget the word sensational Jan. It doesn't exist. If you come across
| Leppard, then by all means give him a listen. But he isn't mandatory by any
| means, and I wouldn't bust a gut getting his version, which is very good,
| among many dozens and dozens of other good versions including Pinnock.
|
| Frankly, the music is way too over-rated anyway imho, and I reckon Vivaldi's
| 4 Seasons is better music.
|
| Try Fluffy. Try MJQ (only joking). Maybe I will too <g>
You're right. There are more sensational Seasons than Brandenburg concertos.
But that's not because the music itself is "better". Maybe it's because that
music needs to be played sensational, while Bach's music does not need that.
--
Jan Depondt
Sacqueboutier
I've been touting the Pinnock for some time now. I still
find it among the most musical of sets.
No, there is nothing sensational about it (save for the
spectacular clarino trumpeting by Michael Laird), but
every moment of the music is the product of consummate
musicianship and scholarship. The motor rhythms are
vigorously realized, but the tempi are never slapdash
(ala MAK/Goebels). Nor are the tempi ever sluggish
(ala Fluffy, Klemp, and Casals). In the slow movements,
the phrasing is wonderfully natural and unforced and the
his strings players generally avoid that "HIP" swell
favored by Harnoncourt's players in 1984. The sound
is very natural with no highlighting. The trumpet
fits within the textures and doesn't stick out. It is
after all, a concerto grosso, not a trumpet showpiece.
The horns are so well done, it's often difficult to tell
that they are using natural horns (except for the timbre).
No, nothing sensational here. Just wonderful musicianship.
When I listen to MAK, I have to listen twice just to make
sure I heard all the notes. That's OK since listening to
it twice still doesn't take as long as listening to most
other sets once.
Pickett's group sounds too scrappy for my taste. With
Pinnock, we have a group with which we can take the
HIP instruments for granted, they are played so well.
Jeff Burton
"Sacqueboutier" <don...@olg.com> wrote in message
news:3C250D73...@olg.com...
>
>
> I've been touting the Pinnock for some time now. I still
> find it among the most musical of sets.
>
I agree. Pinnock's HIP recordings of Bach have aged very well. The few
times I've tried a new recommended recording of something that Pinnock has
already done, I've been pleasantly surprised how Pinnock's work stood up to
the challenge. He was performing (or directing) amazingly sensitive and
nuanced performances in the mid eighties.
Jeff
Margaret Mikulska
-Margaret
Larry Eckerling
miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu wrote on 12/23/01 3:19 AM:
Leonard Bernstein in his last interview (I think this is the right
interview) in Rolling Stone Magazine singled out Pinnock as amazing Bach
which really sparkled! If I am not mistaken, it wasn't a Bach question, but
a "period instruments" question.
Larry Eckerling
mkperman
"Larry Eckerling" <lecke...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:B84B30D3.17D53%lecke...@attbi.com...
>
> Leonard Bernstein in his last interview (I think this is the
right
> interview) in Rolling Stone Magazine singled out Pinnock as
amazing Bach
> which really sparkled! If I am not mistaken, it wasn't a Bach
question, but
> a "period instruments" question.
Not to doubt Lenny's sincerity for a minute, but at the time
Pinnock was the star baroque interpreter for Lenny's record label
(DG).
Marc Perman
Max Schmeder
> Not to doubt Lenny's sincerity for a minute, but at the time
> Pinnock was the star baroque interpreter for Lenny's record label
> (DG).
I have to admit it sounds like you're doubting his sincerity. What
did you mean? thx, Max
> Marc Perman
Jan Depondt
| find it among the most musical of sets.
|
| No, there is nothing sensational about it (save for the
| spectacular clarino trumpeting by Michael Laird), but
| every moment of the music is the product of consummate
| musicianship and scholarship. The motor rhythms are
| vigorously realized, but the tempi are never slapdash
| (ala MAK/Goebels). Nor are the tempi ever sluggish
| (ala Fluffy, Klemp, and Casals). In the slow movements,
| the phrasing is wonderfully natural and unforced and the
| his strings players generally avoid that "HIP" swell
| favored by Harnoncourt's players in 1984. The sound
| is very natural with no highlighting. The trumpet
| fits within the textures and doesn't stick out. It is
| after all, a concerto grosso, not a trumpet showpiece.
| The horns are so well done, it's often difficult to tell
| that they are using natural horns (except for the timbre).
|
| No, nothing sensational here. Just wonderful musicianship.
That's what it is, and what gives such a good feeling when hearing these
perfromances (but there are other performances giving that as well). Your
example of the 2nd concerto is a striking one. Having everything "in place" is
not sensational, but it feels so "right". When hearing a new set of these
concertos I'm allways curious to know if the 2nd concerto is done "better"
than by Pinnock; it never is.
--
Jan Depondt
mkperman
mkperman
Not at all, but in the mid-80s Pinnock had perhaps more commercial
support from his label than any other contemporaneous HIP
performers, and LB might have been more likely to hear his
recordings than, say, Hogwood's or Harnoncourt's. I may be quite
wrong, and of course we'll never know.
Marc Perman
Sacqueboutier
>
> "Max Schmeder" <maxsc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3045101c.0112...@posting.google.com...
> > "mkperman" <mkpe...@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<a059gk$3d9
> >
> > > Not to doubt Lenny's sincerity for a minute, but at the time
> > > Pinnock was the star baroque interpreter for Lenny's record
> label
> > > (DG).
> >
> > I have to admit it sounds like you're doubting his sincerity.
> What
> > did you mean? thx, Max
>
> Not at all, but in the mid-80s Pinnock had perhaps more commercial
> support from his label than any other contemporaneous HIP
> performers,
I'll disagree here. Harnoncourt and Hogwood both had extraordinary
support from their respective labels. Decca was issuing everything
Hogwood could think of, and Teldec already had a large catalogue of
Harnoncourt recordings, including two Brandenburg sets.
> and LB might have been more likely to hear his
> recordings than, say, Hogwood's or Harnoncourt's. I may be quite
> wrong, and of course we'll never know.
Why would Lenny be more likely to hear Pinnock than the others?
Just because he recorded for Archiv? True, we'll never know.
Michael Smith
nearly thirty years to concentrate on solo work. Anderw Manze will be
taking over, so I imagine that the AAM are looking for another
associate director.
Michael
Mark K. Ehlert
news:b1aa7916.01123...@posting.google.com...
!!!! Where did you read this?
Curiously yours,
--
Mark K. Ehlert
To reply via e-mail, X = 3
Matthew B. Tepper
152.65.161.36:
> "Michael Smith" <michaels...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b1aa7916.01123...@posting.google.com...
>> I see that Pinnock is finally giving up The English Concert after
>> nearly thirty years to concentrate on solo work. Anderw Manze will be
>> taking over, so I imagine that the AAM are looking for another
>> associate director.
>
> !!!! Where did you read this?
I believe it was reported by Gamrohpone.
Sacqueboutier
>
> "Mark K. Ehlert" <ludw...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c2f891f@
> 152.65.161.36:
>
> > "Michael Smith" <michaels...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:b1aa7916.01123...@posting.google.com...
> >> I see that Pinnock is finally giving up The English Concert after
> >> nearly thirty years to concentrate on solo work. Anderw Manze will be
> >> taking over, so I imagine that the AAM are looking for another
> >> associate director.
> >
> > !!!! Where did you read this?
>
> I believe it was reported by Gamrohpone.
That'll be $1, please.