Most Overrated Conductors of all time
Yeastguy
I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
Gerrit Stolte
Can't comment on Ormandy, since I don't have anything conducted by
him. The Szell's I have (Beethoven 3,8,9th - just listening to it -
and the Schumann set) are magnificent. Also Reiner's recording of
Beethoven's 9th is among my favs. Most inspiring to my ears were
Fricsay and Furtwaengler. Also Klemperer was a hell of a conductor.
But Gods? Certainly not. Were it not for the composers those guys
might have ended up on welfare. Who knows?
Gerrit
"I don't know what he's playing, but it's not Jazz."
Dizzy Gillespie ueber Ornette Coleman
The Melsons
On 5 Apr 1997 07:36:03 GMT, yeas...@aol.com (Yeastguy) wrote:
>I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
>many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
>Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
>a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
My formative years as a concertgoer were spent in suburban
Philadelphia, so I always like to respond to those who dump on Eugene
Ormandy. He was not in the intellectual-metaphysical category of
Furtwaengler, nor was he the shining example of the
disciplinarian/technician school of Toscanini, Szell or Reiner. He
did have a fabulous ear. however, and kept the Philadelphia a superb
instrument for over 40 years (until Muti came along to destroy the
sound Stokowski and Ormandy cultivated). Ormandy was also a terrific
accompanist, as his many concerto recordings attest. He was totally
dedicated to Philadelphia, spending much more of his time there than
many of today's jet-setters do with their orchestras.
There are many first-rate Ormandy/Philadelphia recordings on the
market (most, in my opinion, from the Columbia years - he was
beginning a period of decline when the Philadelphia Orchestra switched
from Columbia to RCA in 1968). Listen to his Prokofiev 5th, Strauss
"Heldenleben," Respighi "Pines and Fountains,"Tchaikovsky
"Pathetique," Sibelius 2nd, Rachmaninoff First and Second Symphonies,
as well as brilliant accompaniments for Stern's Brahms VC,
Mendelssohn's Piano Concerti with Serkin, Tchaikovsky VC with
Oistrakh, and countless short encore pieces - his Columbia (NOT RCA)
recording of Gliere's "Russian Sailor's Dance" is one of the most
exciting orchestral recordings I've ever heard of anything.
Does a conductor have to be a probing intellectual or a drill sergeant
par excellence to make a positive contribution to music, and to leave
behind countless recordings that bring pleasure? I think not.
Mark Melson
Owen Hartnett
In article <33467044....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ame...@ix.netcom.com
(The Melsons) wrote:
>On 5 Apr 1997 07:36:03 GMT, yeas...@aol.com (Yeastguy) wrote:
>>I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
>>many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
>>Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
>>a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
[...]
>There are many first-rate Ormandy/Philadelphia recordings on the
>market (most, in my opinion, from the Columbia years - he was
>beginning a period of decline when the Philadelphia Orchestra switched
>from Columbia to RCA in 1968). Listen to his Prokofiev 5th, Strauss
>"Heldenleben," Respighi "Pines and Fountains,"Tchaikovsky
>"Pathetique," Sibelius 2nd, Rachmaninoff First and Second Symphonies,
>as well as brilliant accompaniments for Stern's Brahms VC,
>Mendelssohn's Piano Concerti with Serkin, Tchaikovsky VC with
>Oistrakh, and countless short encore pieces - his Columbia (NOT RCA)
>recording of Gliere's "Russian Sailor's Dance" is one of the most
>exciting orchestral recordings I've ever heard of anything.
>Does a conductor have to be a probing intellectual or a drill sergeant
>par excellence to make a positive contribution to music, and to leave
>behind countless recordings that bring pleasure? I think not.
I'll agree with you on Ormandy. I think he's rated exactly right, a class
above today's rather conservatory stamped conductors, but not in the big
league of Toscanini, Reiner, Furtwangler, et al. I don't think he's in any
way overrated, certainly not as overrated as some of today's maestros.
He's made some wonderful recordings, and you'll definitely experience the
Philadelphia "big sound" with him, whatever your feelings on the
orchestral precision vs. impressionistic orchestra colors argument is. I
found him reliable, you can expect a certain sound and performance level
from his recordings, and not be disappointed. His best would be in those
works where color and effect predominate, but he could occasionally zing
the German masterworks with the best of them.
-Owen
Matthew B. Tepper
Barbirolli!
--
"I don't care about being politically correct. I just want to be
anatomically correct!" http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
Matthew B. Tepper Web Brainiac and Gonzo Musicologist Quack!
Yeastguy
I appreciate your comments....You and I don't rate the the conductors
anyway....The Record marketers do that. How else do you explain all the
uproar about David Helfgott( as a piano player of course), Simon Rattle,
and Nemi Jarvi?
I personally have a few recording of Abravenel ( Utah) and A. Dorati that
I hold very close, so your comments are well respected by me.Usually when
new compositions are championed by a particular conductor, they are by
default considered the master of that piece.
Today's conductors don't have the luxury of having friendships with living
composers such Bartok, Strauss, Prokofeiv or Shostakovich in order to
prepare a performance. Perhaps in 2050 when the current composers are
considered accessable music, then the Slatkins and (HuMMMMMH Boulez's)
will be considered with the Reiners (however not by me!).
Ramon Khalona
> On 5 Apr 1997 07:36:03 GMT, yeas...@aol.com (Yeastguy) wrote:
>
> >I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
> >many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
> >Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
> >a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
>
Any conductor who takes on such a vast repertoire as Ormandy did is
bound
to sound ordinary with some composers. I grant that he was not
memorable
with the traditional Germanic repertoire, but his Tchaikovksy and
Sibelius were
quite good, IMHO. He had a remarkable ear and was one of the quickest
learners
of all time with a phenomenal memory. IMO, of all conductors, he was one
of the
best accompanists and many soloists have testified to that.
I wouldn't count him among my favorites, but the guy definitely had some
merits. In many ways, I think he was underrated.
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
David M. Cook
On 5 Apr 1997 07:36:03 GMT, Yeastguy <yeas...@aol.com> wrote:
>I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
>many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
>Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
>a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
Who overrated Ormandy? I think he was underrated.
Dave Cook
Jeffrey Birch
Yeastguy wrote:
>
> I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
> many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
> Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
> a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
For no particular reason, Ormandy is one of my favorites. Recording by
him are high on my list of must haves. Can't put my finger on precisely
why...
Jeff
Nuclear
I always thought Bruno Walter to be overrated. I find many of his
renderings to be lifeless and flat.
Ian Ding
On 5 Apr 1997, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Barbirolli!
>
Uh, oh... better run for cover, Matt!
Ian
Alan Swindells
Celibadache?
(Ducks and runs for cover.)
:-)
--
Regards: Alan
* alan...@argonet.co.uk *
'Life! Don't talk to me about life!'
Marvin the Paranoid Android
August Helmbright
On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:07:55 -0700, Nuclear <azm...@goodnet.com> wrote:
>I always thought Bruno Walter to be overrated. I find many of his
>renderings to be lifeless and flat.
>
I would prefer to say "inconsistent" to "overrated." At his best, I
find Walter hard to beat. Try his Eroica, his Brahms 3rd, his Mahler
2nd, 9th, Das Lied, Act I of Die Walküre with Melchior & Lehmann,
Bruckner's 9th, etc. etc.
On the other hand, there's a really flabby and dull Beethoven 9th from
his latter days, as well as some Mozart that makes me really surprised
at his reputation as a great Mozart conductor.
August
Gerrit Stolte
Bernstein
Sara Freeman
In <5i7vvq$ig8$1...@grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de>
sto...@stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Gerrit Stolte) writes:
>
>Bernstein
>
Now you are going to be in major trouble.
--
"Come out and admire me now because I won't be back for 2,400 years."--Hale-Bopp
JJ
Karl Boehm - no question.
Jon
Don Patterson
Karajan
(Ducks and covers)
;-)
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
Concerned about the state of the Mac?
Visit: http://www.MacMarines.com
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
those of the U.S. Marine Band or the Marine Corps.
Don Patterson
Karajan
jfm...@aol.com
In article <5i69nn$i...@taurus.adnc.com>, Ramon Khalona <"rkha...@adnc.com"@adnc.com> writes:
>> On 5 Apr 1997 07:36:03 GMT, yeas...@aol.com (Yeastguy) wrote:
>>
>> >I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
>> >many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
>> >Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
>> >a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
>>
Ramon responded:
>Any conductor who takes on such a vast repertoire as Ormandy did is
>bound
>to sound ordinary with some composers. I grant that he was not
>memorable
>with the traditional Germanic repertoire, but his Tchaikovksy and
>Sibelius were
>quite good, IMHO. He had a remarkable ear and was one of the quickest
>learners
>of all time with a phenomenal memory. IMO, of all conductors, he was one
>of the
>best accompanists and many soloists have testified to that.
>
>I wouldn't count him among my favorites, but the guy definitely had some
>merits. In many ways, I think he was underrated.
Agreed. Additionally, he conducted excellent performances of works by Prokofiev and Shostakovich over his long career, many of which were recorded but for whatever reason lie dormant in the Sony and
BMG vaults. His recordings of the Prokofiev Symphonies #4 and #6, recorded for Columbia, are superb and better than most, if not all, that are currently available. His recordings of the last 3
Shostakovich symphonies were also excellent, though perhaps not for those who prefer these on the more edgy and frenetic side. He and the Philadelphians also do a wonderful job with the Shostakovich
Symphony#4--not a real easy work to pull off convincingly--which is, happily, in print.
J. Forman
jfm...@aol.com
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970405200620.27436A-100000@goodguy>, Nuclear <azm...@goodnet.com> writes:
>I always thought Bruno Walter to be overrated. I find many of his
>renderings to be lifeless and flat.
Well, one person's "lifeless and flat" is another's "warm and relaxed", I suppose. I also think that we tend to define Walter's performances based on the stereo performances that he made with the
Columbia Symphony late in his life, rather than his earlier ones--say, the Mahler#5 he did in New York, the pre-war Mahler#9 with the Vienna Philharmonic or even, despite the less than optimal choral
contribution, the New York version of the Brahms "German Requiem"--which reveals a leaner, less contemplative side of his style.
J. Forman
Sara Freeman
>
>Karajan
>
>(Ducks and covers)
>
>;-)
>
>--
BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Neil Tingley
On 5 Apr 1997 17:58:28 GMT, du...@deltanet.com (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
>Barbirolli!
>
prepare the fireproofs !!
N.
------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Tingley |http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/music
mu...@netlink.co.uk |http://www.intbuscom.com/
ne...@music.demon.co.uk |
Neil Tingley
On 5 Apr 1997 18:30:34 GMT, yeas...@aol.com (Yeastguy) wrote:
>I appreciate your comments....You and I don't rate the the conductors
>anyway....The Record marketers do that. How else do you explain all the
>uproar about David Helfgott( as a piano player of course), Simon Rattle,
>and Nemi Jarvi?
>
Jarvi might have recorded too much, but as a former RNSO regular I can happily
say he was often inspirational, espescially in Shostakovich. There were few more
exciting conductors who came to the Usher Hall.
I've never seen Rattle live, but overthe radio his performances seem to catch
fire in a way that his recordings don't. I don't think the #CBSO's concerts
would sell out every week if he was not a great artist.
Kevin
I usually stay out of top-ten/bottom ten lists, but there really are a
few conductors who I just don't get.
Tilson Thomas.
Robert Shaw.
In fairness, these guys are known for a type of music that I don't
listen to much, but they've also ventured out into music that I do
like, leaving me VERY unimpressed.
Ozawa. Is he famous for ANYTHING? He hasn't done anything bad, but
then, he hasn't done anything good. He's always in the middle.
Horenstein, of course, is the most UNDERrated conductor of the
recording era.
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
Totally agree about Horenstein as most UNDER-rated conductor. I once saw
him conduct a magisterial, very emotional performance of 'Parsifal' at
ROCG. I think he only conducted it once in his life - is that right? Can
anyone advise? At the time he was visibly dying of cancer, and had to be
helped to the podium. The first 20 minutes were a mess - I imagine the
leader was really running the show until the drugs took effect on
Horenstein. BUT the final Act - Kollo / Talvella / Shuard I seem to
recall? - was electrifying. The whole place was numbed by the intensity of
the reading. At the end, we could all see that for the first time in the
whole evening, Horesnstein was standing to conduct. Or is this just age
sweetening memory? Was anyone else there? Year I cannot recall, but
certainly before 1977. Can anyone help?
Pedro Moniz Barreto
In article <owen-05049...@dyn153a.pvx-ri.ids.net> ow...@ids.net (Owen Hartnett) writes:
>I'll agree with you on Ormandy. I think he's rated exactly right, a class
>above today's rather conservatory stamped conductors, but not in the big
>league of Toscanini, Reiner, Furtwangler, et al. I don't think he's in any
>way overrated, certainly not as overrated as some of today's maestros.
>He's made some wonderful recordings, and you'll definitely experience the
>Philadelphia "big sound" with him, whatever your feelings on the
>orchestral precision vs. impressionistic orchestra colors argument is. I
>found him reliable, you can expect a certain sound and performance level
>from his recordings, and not be disappointed. His best would be in those
>works where color and effect predominate, but he could occasionally zing
>the German masterworks with the best of them.
>-Owen
Hello!
So if you had to reccomend a couple of records to demonstrate/illustrate
Ormandy's art which would they be?
I had for a short period his Carmina Burana and was not overly impressed.
However I had the impression that the fault was more on the sound that came
from the CD.
All teh best
Joao Pedro
Ramon Khalona
I wish Ferenc Fricsay and Istvan Kertesz had lived longer. Who knows
what many more wonderful recordings we would have by them!
As it is, I am thankful for what they left us.
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
brthe...@aol.com
>
>Hello!
>
>So if you had to reccomend a couple of records to demonstrate/illustrate
>Ormandy's art which would they be?
>
>I had for a short period his Carmina Burana and was not overly impressed.
>However I had the impression that the fault was more on the sound that came
>from the CD.
>
>
Try his Rachmaninoff Symphony No. 2, (RCA version is complete), some of his Debussy and Ravel are nice. Any Sibelius that he recorded, particularly the Kalevala Legends. He was also a far more
sympathetic accompanist then, say, Kajaran ever was.
Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)
Alexander Phoon
>Celibadache?
>
Actually I find Horenstein far overated esp in Bruckner & Mahler -
perhaps if he had a better orchestra..........
August Helmbright
On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:37:12 GMT, wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk wrote:
>Totally agree about Horenstein as most UNDER-rated conductor.
Horenstein has quite a following today, so I'm not sure I'd call him
underrated, even though he was great.
I would vote for Jonel Perlea as underrated -- a really great
conductor, as you can tell from only a handfull of recordings -- but
little known today.
Try his Rigoletto, with Robert Merrill, Roberta Peters and Jussi
Bjoerling, on RCA. It's a fantastic recording.
August
PGoldst515
Most underrated/underrecorded conductors: Peter Maag; Jascha Horenstein;
Hans Rosbaud; Carl Schuricht
Most underrated/non-recorded conductor: George Cleve
Most underrated/much recorded but underappreciated conductors: Pierre
Monteux; Carlo Maria Giulini; Bernard Haitink
Paul Goldstein
sil...@webtv.net
Personally, one of my favorites is, movie composer, John Williams.
I also like Kent Nango.
Brian W. Camp
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> Jarvi might have recorded too much, but as a former RNSO regular I can
happily
> say he was often inspirational, espescially in Shostakovich. There were
few more
> exciting conductors who came to the Usher Hall.
>
Totally Agree with you here! Jarvi is no doubt at his best with
Shostakovich. His RNSO recordings on Chandos are quite good... especially
the 4th,5th,7th, and 10th
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#F0E8D8"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br><br><br>> Jarvi might have =
recorded too much, but as a former RNSO regular I can happily<br>> =
say he was often inspirational, espescially in Shostakovich. There were =
few more<br>> exciting conductors who came to the Usher Hall.<br>> =
<br>Totally Agree with you here! Jarvi is no doubt at his best =
with Shostakovich. His RNSO recordings on Chandos are quite =
good... especially the 4th,5th,7th, and 10th<br><br></p>
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Ward Hardman
Yeastguy (yeas...@aol.com) wrote:
: I am of the belief that all the "older" conductors were not Gods...., and
: many were overrated. In particular, I find E. Ormandy rather ordinary,
: Szell was terrific, and Reiner a master craftsman. I'm not trying to start
: a negative thread, but was wonder what others may feel.
Among today's crop of conductors, I'd have to say that Carlos Kleiber is
one of the most "underachieving," if not "overrated," in terms of the
*volume* of his accomplishments in relation to his apparent talent.
(I'm not complaining about quality, just the disappointing lack of
quantity.)
Richard Schultz
Sara Freeman (fre...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >Karajan
: BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Here's another vote for everybody's favorite "Nazi? Who me?". I
can think of maybe half a dozen topnotch things he did, and a really
large number of lousy ones.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?"
Shaun Ng
Richard Schultz wrote:
Sara Freeman (fre...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <334850...@erols.com> Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com>
writes:
: >Karajan
: BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Here's another vote for everybody's favorite "Nazi? Who me?". I
can think of maybe half a dozen topnotch things he did, and a really
large number of lousy ones.
Then again, Karajan has his Bruckner, some Brahms, some Beethoven
.....
and thats all i dare to say... really
-----
Richard Schultz
sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got
bored?"
--
_______________________________________________
Shaun Maximilian Ng (aka Maxim7)
sha...@singnet.com.sg
max...@geocities.com
max...@hotmail.com
herbertv...@resurrection.com
leonardb...@resurrection.com
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2290/
_____________________________________________________
(___0_0_0_9_|_0_0_0_o_o_6_0_0_o_0____|___|_____(_0_)__)
_______________________________________________
Don Patterson
> >
> >;-)
> >
> >--
> BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
> --
Sara,
I am glad that you responded in the humorous fashion
that my post was intended.
Actually, I have learned in this NG that I cannot dismiss
any conductor entirely. I once was a Karajan hater, but
have learned to appreciate much of what he recorded.
OTOH, I have learned that one should not accept a conductor's
work solely because that conductor's name is on it. No
conductor got it right every time (although some are almost
always compelling, whether right or wrong).
Karajan's Bruckner still leaves me cold, but I cherish the
radiant 8th with the VPO.
There are many others, but I take them on their merits, not
on a conductors name.
On the flip side, I have been known to be a Gardiner fan. But,
truth be known, his Handel has always left me rather cold (as
did his early recordings of Bach). His more recent recs
of the Mass and Passions are infinitely more interesting.
Eric Schissel
In article <5iet6m$pb3$3...@news07.deltanet.com>,
Matthew B. Tepper <du...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>In article <19970408040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>pgold...@aol.com was heard to remark...
>>
>>Most underrated/non-recorded conductor: George Cleve
>
>labels whose product disappeared without a trace. Even his successor
>in San Jose, Leonid Grin, appears to have made more recordings!
Leonid Grin has made .quite. a few recordings, including one of my
favorites, Melartin's symphonies 5&6 on Ondine (he's done the other
symphonies but I have only heard part of 3 otherwise.) Not just "even"
more than one or two, by any means.
Though I didn't know or had forgotten he was in San Jose. Who's with the
Tampere now?
-Eric Schissel
Eric Schissel
In article <334a95eb...@news.wave.co.nz>,
Can't go hardly anywhere without seeing a Horenstein recording, these
days.
No seriously. He's rated very poorly if at all except among a small
number of fans (including myself for, among other things, his Simpson 3).
Doesn't overrated tend to imply "overrated in the critical consensus"? If
so, is he so bad that he's even worse than most seem to think he is?
-Eric Schissel
goran.soderwall
Alexander Phoon wrote:
>
> >Celibadache?
> >
> Actually I find Horenstein far overated esp in Bruckner & Mahler -
> perhaps if he had a better orchestra..........
Your listening experience seems to be somewhat limited when you talk in
such a disparaging way about one of the great conductors especially of
Mahler and Bruckner.
After all Horenstein made some marvellous records with the London
Symphony Orchestra in those days, that is the late 60s and early 70s a
most brilliant orchestra.
As for his recordings with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra they may be a
bit rough but the atmosphere and the great feeling put into these
recordings is great. Just listen to the Mahler 1st and his Bruckner 8th
and 9th.
The old Vox LPs are of course superiour to any CD so far.
Goran Sw
Neil Tingley
On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:37:12 GMT, wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk wrote:
It was 1971 as far as I know. Jakov Horenstein will no doubt confirm for us.
I've heard this performance mentioned with similar reverence/awe.
Neil
gdde...@aol.com
>Karajan
Now Don?? HvK did lots and lots of really wonderful things. Just because they
don't suit your tastes doesn't make him overrated.
Let's talk about Neeme Järvi who I saw in Chicago many times and who each
time made less and less sense. Unfortunately, we're stuck buying some of his
stuff because no one else has done it or they're even worse. For example, the
Berwald and Stenhammer Symphonies. Try to find a meter in the first movement
of Stenhammer's First Symphony with Järvi conducting............damn near
impossible!
Geoffrey Decker
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <19970408040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
pgold...@aol.com was heard to remark...
>
>Most underrated/non-recorded conductor: George Cleve
Actually, George has made one or two recordings, but for really tiny
labels whose product disappeared without a trace. Even his successor
in San Jose, Leonid Grin, appears to have made more recordings!
--
"I don't care about being politically correct. I just want to be
anatomically correct!" http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
Matthew B. Tepper Web Brainiac and Gonzo Musicologist Quack!
Matthias Schneider
Enrique Batiz, Eduardo Mata.
phillip bird
In article <jsj4-06049...@j301826813.resnet.cornell.edu>,
js...@cornell.edu says...
> Karl Boehm - no question.
Oh come on mate.
Try a couple of absolute hacks..Zubin Mehta and James Levine.
>-
Phil Bird
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Email:P.B...@BoM.GOV.AU
(alias GUNNER)
Fax:61 3 6694128
Simon Malloch
Most overrated: John Eliot Gardiner
Michael Tilson Thomas (face in the crowd)
Great Conductors: Karajan
Furtwangler
Klemperer (though I think his orchestra lets him down
sometimes; I shudder to think of what sounds we would have gotten had he
conducted the 1960's Berlin Philharmonic)
Bohm
Guilini
That's about it.
Simon Malloch
Richard Schultz
phillip bird (p.b...@bom.gov.au) wrote:
: Oh come on mate.
: Try a couple of absolute hacks..Zubin Mehta and James Levine.
I don't think that anyone would confuse Zubin Mehta with a great conductor.
That is, he may not be great, but he probably isn't overrated. I haven't
listened to enough Levine to comment except that I bought his recording
of Mahler's 7th Symphony (the one that won all sorts of awards and had
the critics oohing and aahing), and thought that it was a *major*
disappointment. BTW, what I said for Mehta goes for Seiji Ozawa too --
he's too mediocre to be overrated.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Unknown
In article <334a9510...@news.demon.co.uk>,
mu...@netlink.co.uk (Neil Tingley) wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:37:12 GMT, wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk wrote:
>>Totally agree about Horenstein as most UNDER-rated conductor. I once saw
>>him conduct a magisterial, very emotional performance of 'Parsifal' at
>>ROCG. I think he only conducted it once in his life - is that right? Can
>>anyone advise? At the time he was visibly dying of cancer, and had to be
>>helped to the podium. The first 20 minutes were a mess - I imagine the
>>leader was really running the show until the drugs took effect on
>>Horenstein. BUT the final Act - Kollo / Talvella / Shuard I seem to
>>recall? - was electrifying. The whole place was numbed by the intensity of
>>the reading. At the end, we could all see that for the first time in the
>>whole evening, Horesnstein was standing to conduct. Or is this just age
>>sweetening memory? Was anyone else there? Year I cannot recall, but
>>certainly before 1977. Can anyone help?
>It was 1971 as far as I know. Jakov Horenstein will no doubt confirm for us.
>I've heard this performance mentioned with similar reverence/awe.
Ahhh, my first live opera performance, March '73 as I recall it (there was a
national coal strike on too). The cast the night that I was there (2nd or 3rd
last of the cycle) was Shuard, Brilioth, Talvela, McIntyre, and Bailey--I
thought it was a mistake at first because I would have predicted Bailey as
Amfortas. That's what made me into a Horenstein fan. What I particularly
remember is the way the orchestral sound itself seemed to glow in the Grail
music. I have heard Levine come close to it in the Met, but that's another
story.
--Kang Howson-Jan
(kang.ho...@lhsc.on.ca)
(k...@julian.uwo.ca)
London, Canada
Opus47
Horenstein died in 1971?
I have a Chandos CD with Hindemith and Strauss that dates from 1973.
But then again they record it and release it later.
Or maybe he just rose from the dead.
Fred
JJ
In article <334B92...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>, Simon Malloch
<sjv...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
> Most overrated: John Eliot Gardiner
> Michael Tilson Thomas (face in the crowd)
>
> Great Conductors: Karajan
> Furtwangler
> Klemperer (though I think his orchestra lets him down
> sometimes; I shudder to think of what sounds we would have gotten had he
> conducted the 1960's Berlin Philharmonic)
Now wait a second. I strongly disagree here--the Philharmonia I think
played beautifully for Klemperer - more beautifully than he demanded
perhaps. I always am amazed at the orchestral refinement in his
recordings for someone who had a reputation as a plain, gruff conducter.
I've seen videos of Klemperer conducting, and it seems that the
Philharmonia knew how to handle well his rather vague, awkward gestures.
I think if he had conducted Berlin or, even more, the Vienna Philharmonic,
he would have gotten really sloppy results.
Jon
Eric Schissel
In article <MPLANET.334b75...@news.bom.gov.au>,
phillip bird <p.b...@bom.gov.au> wrote:
>Try a couple of absolute hacks..Zubin Mehta and James Levine.
I'm inclined based on what I've heard to describe Abbado and Barenboim as
somewhat overrated, and perhaps Mehta. Still, Levine did a fine CD of
Schoenberg, Berg and Webern orchestral pieces. It needs to be heard
alongside Boulez' of the Webern (part of a 3-CD set on Sony) to get full
value out of it, though...
>
>>-
> Phil Bird
Sara Freeman
In <334AF4...@erols.com> Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> writes:
>
>Sara Freeman wrote:
>>
>> Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> writes:
>>
>> >
>> >Karajan
>> >
>> >(Ducks and covers)
>> >
>> >;-)
>> >
>> >--
>> BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
>> --
>
>Sara,
>
>I am glad that you responded in the humorous fashion
>that my post was intended.
>
>Actually, I have learned in this NG that I cannot dismiss
>any conductor entirely.
I can't think of any conductor that doesn't have any redeeming
value, . . . but . . . well . . . maybe . . . no, I won't say it.
I once was a Karajan hater, but
>have learned to appreciate much of what he recorded.
>
>OTOH, I have learned that one should not accept a conductor's
>work solely because that conductor's name is on it. No
>conductor got it right every time (although some are almost
>always compelling, whether right or wrong).
>
>Karajan's Bruckner still leaves me cold, but I cherish the
>radiant 8th with the VPO.
>
>There are many others, but I take them on their merits, not
>on a conductors name.
>
>On the flip side, I have been known to be a Gardiner fan. But,
>truth be known, his Handel has always left me rather cold (as
>did his early recordings of Bach). His more recent recs
>of the Mass and Passions are infinitely more interesting.
>
>
>--
Actually, I made a mistake. It should have been.
BBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Hope that didn't hurt any harder.
--
"Come out and admire me now because I won't be back for 2,400 years."--Hale-Bopp
Kevin
Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> wrote:
>Karajan
>
>(Ducks and covers)
>
>;-)
Flat out? *ALL* Karajan? You're not going to qualify that, Don? :-)
I agree about his later stuff. Save for the Shostakovich 10th, I can't
stand anything he did in the 80s. But the firther back in time you go,
the more I admire him.
Save for the above mentioned Shosty, Karajan is never my first choice.
There's always someone a little better.
(And before someone says his Shostakovich 10th from the sixties is
better...I'm still looking for it!!)
John F Bakker
Alan Swindells (alan...@argonet.co.uk) wrote:
: Celibadache?
Maybe not overrated, but definitely a sexist pig. Just ask Abbie Conant,
principal trombone of the Munich Orchestra.
--
Jon Bakker
"If it doesn't have seven positions, I don't want to play it!"
- Bakker
Curtis Croulet
According to my stuff he died 2 Apr 1973.
William H. Pittman
In article <5iet6m$pb3$3...@news07.deltanet.com>, du...@deltanet.com (Matthew
B. Tepper) wrote:
> >Most underrated/non-recorded conductor: George Cleve
Well, maybe. I played under him in 1964 when he conducted the Cleveland
Philharmonic, and he was the most unstable person I've ever encountered as
a conductor. Maybe he's stabilized since then, but my memories of him are
not encouraging.
William H. Pittman
Mahesh Sardesai
In article <pedro.81...@bms.brookes.ac.uk>, pe...@bms.brookes.ac.uk
(Pedro Moniz Barreto) wrote:
> In article <owen-05049...@dyn153a.pvx-ri.ids.net> ow...@ids.net
(Owen Hartnett) writes:
> >I'll agree with you on Ormandy. I think he's rated exactly right, a class
> >above today's rather conservatory stamped conductors, but not in the big
> >league of Toscanini, Reiner, Furtwangler, et al. I don't think he's in any
> >way overrated, certainly not as overrated as some of today's maestros.
>
> >He's made some wonderful recordings, and you'll definitely experience the
> >Philadelphia "big sound" with him, whatever your feelings on the
> >orchestral precision vs. impressionistic orchestra colors argument is. I
> >found him reliable, you can expect a certain sound and performance level
> >from his recordings, and not be disappointed. His best would be in those
> >works where color and effect predominate, but he could occasionally zing
> >the German masterworks with the best of them.
>
> So if you had to reccomend a couple of records to demonstrate/illustrate
> Ormandy's art which would they be?
>
> I had for a short period his Carmina Burana and was not overly impressed.
> However I had the impression that the fault was more on the sound that came
> from the CD.
>
FWIW, the Penguin Guide gives this Carmina Burana a rosette, mostly for the
Rutgers University Choir. Of course, given that it's a piece about
partying in a tavern and enjoying love in the spring, I'm not so surprised
that a college choir would do so well! :-)
I used to have Ormandy's CD of Pictures at an Exhibition and enjoyed it
very much.
--
Mahesh P. Sardesai, Brown University
Mahesh_...@brown.edu
http://www.netspace.org/~sardesai
goran.soderwall
gdde...@aol.com wrote:
> don't suit your tastes doesn't make him overrated.
>
> Let's talk about Neeme Järvi who I saw in Chicago many times and who each
> time made less and less sense. Unfortunately, we're stuck buying some of his
> stuff because no one else has done it or they're even worse. For example, the
> Berwald and Stenhammer Symphonies. Try to find a meter in the first movement
> of Stenhammer's First Symphony with Järvi conducting............damn near
> impossible!
>
> Geoffrey Decker
More a comment on the fact that there are a number of really fine
recordings of Berwald and Stenhammar made quite some time ago but still
most listenable. Being an old vinyl supporter I wonder if, for instance,
Igor Markevitch' great Berwald 2:nd and 3:rd symphonies with BPO are on
cd?
Otherwise I agree that Neemi Järvi is really too spotlighted by the
gramophone industry and now his son? is doing everything a second round!
Goran Sw
Don Patterson
Kevin wrote:
>
> Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Karajan
> >
> >(Ducks and covers)
> >
> >;-)
>
> Flat out? *ALL* Karajan? You're not going to qualify that, Don? :-)
>
Sorry to snare you with that one, Kevin. It was humorous troll
for Sara. No I don't dislike *everything* the man did, but I
do feel that a significant amount of his success was the result of
blatant self-promotion.
Don Patterson
gdde...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <334850...@erols.com>, Don Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> writes:
>
> >Karajan
>
> Now Don?? HvK did lots and lots of really wonderful things. Just because they
> don't suit your tastes doesn't make him overrated.
>
Please read my other posts in this thread.
Gerard Middleton
When I was a student in London many decades ago there were two prominent
conductors (besides Beecham and Barbirolli and a few others): Malcolm
Sargent and Adrian Boult. Sargent was the one who brought in the large
crowds. I never thought he was half the musician that Boult was. I have
been glad to see Boult's recordings reappearing -- has anyone seen
anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
--
Gerry Middleton
Department of Geology, McMaster University
Tel: (905) 525-9140 ext 24187 FAX 522-3141
Steve Ginsberg
In article
<Mahesh_Sardesai-ya023...@news.brown.edu>,
Mahesh_...@brown.edu says...
Dear Sirs,
Ormandy was one of the two best accompanists of the 20th
century. The other being Barbirolli. Secondly, I will tell
you a little secret Claudia Cassidy once told me. William
Kapell was going to leave RCA before he died and sign a
contract over at Columbia. The first rason is he would have
been their star pianist. The other rason was Ormandy was at
Columbia and Kapell thought he was the best accompanist
around. Yes, Ormandy did some boring conducting. However,
when Ormandy was having a good day, particularly with
Sibelius and Rachmaninov, there was nothing else like him.
Furthermore, Ormandy still had the sound of the
Philadelphia. When you hear the Philadelphia under Ormandy,
you know exactly what orchesta it is. Can you say that for
Muti, Mehta, Slatkin (who leaned absolutely nothing from his
old man), or any other of
the worthless hacks around these days?
What is amazing to me is that the classical labels have not
figured out why their sales are down. They have no one to
conduct the music anymore.
Steve Ginsberg
opus 10
David M. Cook
On 10 Apr 1997 08:29:03 -0400,
Gerard Middleton <midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
> -- has anyone seen
>anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
Yeah, I want to. By coincidence, the two recordings of his that I like
are both Prokofiev: Peter & the Wolf and the Sinfonia Concertante with
Rostropovich.
I'm sure he did some other good stuff. It's a stupid question, even if
rhetorical.
Dave Cook
Lani Spahr
In article <5iimef$3...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>, midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Gerard Middleton) writes:
[snip]
|> I have
|> been glad to see Boult's recordings reappearing -- has anyone seen
Well, yes, me for one. I have 3 recordings of Sargent's that I wouldn't want
to be without. An Elgar Dream of Gerontius with Heddle Nash from 1945
and another Dream of Gerontius with Richard Lewis from 1954. Also an Elgar
Cello Concerto with Tortelier from 1953. (I also have some things by him that
I _can_ do without.)
Cheers,
Lani Spahr
av...@aol.com
In article <5igb6i$k...@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca>, Kang Howson-Jan (kang.ho...@lhsc.on.ca) writes:
>Subject: Re: Jascha Horenstein (was: Most UNDERrated Conductors of all time)
many MAHLER fanatics would agree.
avik-gms
Paul Goldstein
Gerard Middleton wrote:
>
> When I was a student in London many decades ago there were two prominent
> conductors (besides Beecham and Barbirolli and a few others): Malcolm
> Sargent and Adrian Boult. Sargent was the one who brought in the large
> been glad to see Boult's recordings reappearing -- has anyone seen
> anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
At the risk of conflagration, may I add that I find Sir Adrian Boult
massively overrated in the area where he supposedly shines most -
English symphonic music? I find his stereo Elgar and Vaughan Williams
symphonies to be metronomic, uninflected, even perfunctory. A perfect
example of this is his VW 5th. Boult's was the first version I had, and
I never warmed to the piece at all from it. All the notes are there,
but it has the same effect on me as wallpaper. Then I heard George
Cleve and the San Jose Symphony give a mesmerizing account of it in
concert, and my interest was provoked. Since then I have discovered
wonderful recordings of this beautiful piece by Menuhin and Barbirolli.
I could tell similar stories about many other great English symphonies.
The VW 4th? Forget Boult, listen to the composer himself, or Slatkin,
or even the genuinely underrated Andrew Davis. OK, maybe the stereo EMI
recordings caught Boult when he was too old to muster some fire he used
to have? In any event, my 2 cents.
Deryk Barker
Gerard Middleton (midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote:
: When I was a student in London many decades ago there were two prominent
: conductors (besides Beecham and Barbirolli and a few others): Malcolm
: Sargent and Adrian Boult. Sargent was the one who brought in the large
: crowds. I never thought he was half the musician that Boult was. I have
: been glad to see Boult's recordings reappearing -- has anyone seen
: anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
His Elgar Dream of Gerontius (both mono and stereo recordings), Cello
Concerto (w Tortelier), Walton Belshazzar's Feast and Sibelius 1 & 5
have all been issued on CD and are all excellent.
Beecham may have been rude about him (he once referred to Karajan as
'a sort of musical Malcolm Sargent') but he was an excellent choral
conductor and Beecham was quite happy to hand over the premiere of
Belshazzar to Sargent. His Sibelius is uniformly fine.
An underrated conductor.
--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Across the pale parabola of Joy |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | Ralston McTodd |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | (Songs of Squalor). |
Eric Schissel
In article <slrn5ks2a4...@mozart.cts.com>,
David M. Cook <dmc...@cts.com> wrote:
>Yeah, I want to. By coincidence, the two recordings of his that I like
>are both Prokofiev: Peter & the Wolf and the Sinfonia Concertante with
>Rostropovich.
Since I seem to have been appointed local at-large Miaskovskii fan *vbg*
I think Rostropovich's 2nd recording of Miask's cello concerto was with
Sargent (hrm, and an orchestra whose name escapes me)...
Though Miask.'s cello concerto is most associated with Rostropovich, it
isn't dedicated to him (not that I've ever heard anyone claim that it
.was., just thought I'd put that in.)
-Eric Schissel
ed waffle
In <5igb6i$k...@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> Kang Howson-Jan
(kang.ho...@lhsc.on.ca) writes:
s performance mentioned with similar reverence/awe.
>
>Ahhh, my first live opera performance, March '73 as I recall it (there
was a
>national coal strike on too). The cast the night that I was there
(2nd or 3rd
>last of the cycle) was Shuard, Brilioth, Talvela, McIntyre, and
Bailey--I
>thought it was a mistake at first because I would have predicted
Bailey as
>Amfortas. That's what made me into a Horenstein fan. What I
particularly
>remember is the way the orchestral sound itself seemed to glow in the
Grail
>music. I have heard Levine come close to it in the Met, but that's
another
>story.
>
>--Kang Howson-Jan
> (kang.ho...@lhsc.on.ca)
> (k...@julian.uwo.ca)
> London, Canada
difficult to definitively judge just what it is that sets one recording
of a work apart from another--there are a lot of variables and I do not
have the training to seperate each from the other.
HOWEVER, I find when I want to listen to Bruckner or Mahler (having
begun to listen seriously to Mahler just in the past year)--or
introduce a friend to them--I almost always reach for a recording
conducted by Jascha Horenstein.
Is there a particular recommendation for him conducting
Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht? How about the same composers's
Variations for Orchestra?
ECW
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
Sargent was called 'Flash Harry' by the London promenaders. And that's
exactly what he was. A meretricious showman. I saw him nay times. All
broad brush and wash. Tells you everything if I say that he was at his
very best with Gilbert and Sullivan. Crumbs.
Deryk: have just come back from skiing in Banff National Park. Absolutel
stunning. What a fabulous country you have.
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
Thanks to Kang for terrific documentation of Horenstein Parsifal. Yes,
that cast rings a bell. And 73 would make it literally months before his
death as I had realised at the time and all the more poignant for that.
goran.soderwall
David M. Cook wrote:
>
> On 10 Apr 1997 08:29:03 -0400,
> Gerard Middleton <midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
>
> > -- has anyone seen
> >anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
>
> Yeah, I want to. By coincidence, the two recordings of his that I like
> are both Prokofiev: Peter & the Wolf and the Sinfonia Concertante with
> Rostropovich.
>
> I'm sure he did some other good stuff. It's a stupid question, even if
> rhetorical.
>
> Dave Cook
Well, Sargent may not be the most imaginative and exciting of conductors
but he has very often accompanied great instrumentalists and to the list
of Rostropovich recordings you must add a really glorious one. The
beautiful Cello Concerto by Miaskovsky from 1956. I only have the LP but
there is an EMI CD still available. Pick it up by all means!
Goran Sw
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Eric Schissel wrote:
>
>
> Since I seem to have been appointed local at-large Miaskovskii fan *vbg*
>
Of course, maintaining a web page on the subject has nothing to do with
it.... :-)
phillip bird
Okko Kamu.
I've always loved his Sibelius.
--
Phil Bird
/|~~~~~\
/ | \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~Q /__| + +\
~~Computer Training~~~~~~ </<_ | | + + \
~~Bureau of Meteorology~~ ______/_______|___| + \___
~~Australia~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ / > | + + \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ / \@
Email:P.B...@BoM.GOV.AU
(alias GUNNER)
Fax:61 3 6694128
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <williepitt-09...@dialup-38.global2000.net>,
willi...@aol.com was heard to remark...
You were replying to somebody who was quoting me, but as it happens I
used to know George slightly. At the time his *redeeming* personal
characteristics were his ability to sing doubtful and filthy lyrics to
various famous pieces of music. (In the opening of Smetana's _Bartered
Bride_ Overture, several of the words are "duck," and most of the rest
rhyme with "duck"!)
However, after the fire, he seems to have mellowed down quite a bit.
--
"I don't care about being politically correct. I just want to be
anatomically correct!" http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
Matthew B. Tepper Web Brainiac and Gonzo Musicologist Quack!
MWKluge
In article <19970409182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, opu...@aol.com
(Opus47) writes:
>
>Horenstein died in 1971?
>
>I have a Chandos CD with Hindemith and Strauss that dates from 1973.
>
>But then again they record it and release it later.
>
>Or maybe he just rose from the dead.
>
>Fred
>
>
The Hindemith/Strauss coupling was originally recorded for Unicorn:
Hindemith- May 1972, Strauss- July 1970. Horenstein died in London April
2, 1973, just two weeks after conducting Parsifal at Covent Garden. BTW,
a Parsifal tape exists. I wish that someone would issue it.
Mark K.
Michael Weston
Paul Goldstein (pgold...@aol.com) wrote:
: or even the genuinely underrated Andrew Davis. OK, maybe the stereo EMI
: recordings caught Boult when he was too old to muster some fire he used
: to have? In any event, my 2 cents.
Boult's reputation is more than backed up in the mono Decca recordings I
have of the RVW symphonies- very taut, with fine ensemble.
mw
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
The only good thing Sargent did, apart from water his carnation every
night, was conduct the orchestra in the famous Heifetz recording of ther
Bruch in G major, which is a wonderful piece of work. I still maintain
that Sargent's Belshazaar was full of 'effects'. I have since heard it
conducted by Vernon Handley, Haitink (yes, our Bernie), and ?Sargent's is
siimply loud. Ask the orchestra what he was like conducting complex time
sigs. On Rad 3 today, Sidonie Goosens was aasked about conductors she
recalled with respect in her 70+ years with the BBCSO. Boult. Boulez,
Toscanini. Sargent was BBCSO's principal conductor for aeons: she didn;t
mention his name once. QED.
John P. Cloninger
I must agree that Boult's first cycle, is for me, the more impressive.
Sure the trumpet in 8:II is awful, for example, but overall I
think the cycle is worth having for historical reasons at the very
least.
Steve Ginsberg
In article <19970412151...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mwk...@aol.com says...
Dear Fans of Under-rated conductors,
In my most humble opinion, there is no doubt to whom this
award should go: Arthur Fiedler. The man was a wonderful
coductor of more serious music as well. If you listen to the
items that were not on the RCA CD such as the Mozart Sonatas
for Orfan and Orchestra, M1019, Telemann Don Quichotte Suite
M945, the best-ever Divertimento No. 15, in B-flat, K287
LM1936. If RCA would have let Fiedler record more serious
music you would have seen what a great conductor he was.
Steve Ginsberg
opus 10
Pam Goodall
From Mike Willis
I always thought Karel Ancerl was rather underrated particularly in
Czech music and 20th century music, although thanks to Tahra and time,
his reputation has improved over the last decade compared to the
previous. His Ma Vlast with the CPO is still one of the very finest,
ditto his recordings of Dvorak overtures, and other pieces for
Supraphon. He even manages to turn the last movement of Brahms's second
symphony into an echt-Czech piece. I rather liked his sharp, crisp and
quite unusual approach to conducting which made the very most of
orchestration and timbres of the orchestra.
Speaking of underrated conductors, whatever happened to Gamba, for
example, who made such a splash in the earelyu days of Decca and was
heard of (by me, at least), about l5 years ago when he toured Australia.
Finally, from an Australian perspective, I would have to include Georg
Tintner whose pereformances of Bruckner, Schumann and much else were
sadly underrated in Australia and elsewhere - I am hopeful that his
upcoming Naxos series will do much to reinstate one of the excellent
Brucknmer conductors.
Mike W
Steven Martin
August Helmbright (alhe...@icnet.net) wrote:
: On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:07:55 -0700, Nuclear <azm...@goodnet.com> wrote:
:
: >I always thought Bruno Walter to be overrated. I find many of his
: >renderings to be lifeless and flat.
: >
:
: I would prefer to say "inconsistent" to "overrated." At his best, I
: find Walter hard to beat. Try his Eroica, his Brahms 3rd, his Mahler
: 2nd, 9th, Das Lied, Act I of Die Walküre with Melchior & Lehmann,
: Bruckner's 9th, etc. etc.
:
: On the other hand, there's a really flabby and dull Beethoven 9th from
: his latter days, as well as some Mozart that makes me really surprised
: at his reputation as a great Mozart conductor.
:
: August
phillip bird
In article <5iimef$3...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA says...
> has anyone seen
> anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
If you try ANYTHING of Sargent, it must be his Walton 1st Symphony.
No one elsw , to me, has projected its tension like he did.
Opus47
I have only one CD of Horenstein out of 500+ CD's. It is the best
performed CD in my collection. I wouldn't doubt he is the best.
Hindemith: Mathis der Maler. Strauss: Death and Transfiguration CHANDOS
1973.
Fred
I. Neill Reid
In article <MPLANET.335054...@news.bom.gov.au>, p.b...@bom.gov.au (phillip bird) writes...
>
>In article <5iimef$3...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
>midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA says...
>> has anyone seen
>> anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
>
Flash Harry was a good choral conductor - his version of
Gerontius (with Heddle Nash) is well worth listening to. The bass
soloist is not Mr. Borg, for example
Neill Reid - i...@dowland.caltech.edu
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <5iomfi$p...@lori.zippo.com>, SteveGins...@webtv.net
was heard to remark...
>
>Dear Fans of Under-rated conductors,
>In my most humble opinion, there is no doubt to whom this
>award should go: Arthur Fiedler. The man was a wonderful
>coductor of more serious music as well. If you listen to the
>items that were not on the RCA CD such as the Mozart Sonatas
>for Orfan and Orchestra, M1019, Telemann Don Quichotte Suite
>M945, the best-ever Divertimento No. 15, in B-flat, K287
>LM1936. If RCA would have let Fiedler record more serious
>music you would have seen what a great conductor he was.
And indeed a recent BMG CD of the Arthur Fiedler Sinfonietta shows him
with his "other" ensemble in music of Handel (an organ concerto with E.
Power Biggs!), Hindemith ("Der Schwanendreher" with the composer as
soloist), Mozart (C Minor Serenade for winds), and others.... It was a
must-buy for me, even though it had the (ugh) Taco Bell Kanon.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: Web geek, duck admirer, SF reader, Berlioz fan
The only good spammer is a DEAD spammer. $5 REWARD for proof of a
homicide directly relating to the "victim" having been a spammer!
Visit my Berlioz page! http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
Ray Madden
phillip bird wrote:
>
> In article <5iimef$3...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
> midd...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA says...
> > has anyone seen
> > anything recorded by Sargent? Does anyone want to???
>
> No one elsw , to me, has projected its tension like he did.
> --
> Phil Bird
> /|~~~~~\
> / | \
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~Q /__| + +\
> ~~Computer Training~~~~~~ </<_ | | + + \
> ~~Bureau of Meteorology~~ ______/_______|___| + \___
> ~~Australia~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ / > | + + \
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ / \@
> Email:P.B...@BoM.GOV.AU
> (alias GUNNER)
> Fax:61 3 6694128
I find that I judge all performances of the Walton Symphony No. 1 that I
have ever heard by the Sargent performance which was the first one I was
exposed to and still stands head and shoulders above a lot of fine
performances that have been released over the years. He also did
Sibelius Symphonies 1 & 2 on CAPITOL which I found more than acceptable.
Ray Madden
Eric Schissel
No, Jim Moskowitz maintains it, I just wrote the essay. And
Onno van Riijen's done more for Miaskovskii fans than I have (witness his
page.)
Anyone heard Maisky and Mork's recordings of the cello concerto?
-Eric Schissel
In article <334F1C...@earthlink.net>,
Umberto Posarelli
>
>Ahhh, my first live opera performance, March '73 as I recall it (there was a
>national coal strike on too). The cast the night that I was there (2nd or 3rd
>last of the cycle) was Shuard, Brilioth, Talvela, McIntyre, and Bailey--I
>thought it was a mistake at first because I would have predicted Bailey as
>Amfortas. That's what made me into a Horenstein fan. What I particularly
>remember is the way the orchestral sound itself seemed to glow in the Grail
>music. I have heard Levine come close to it in the Met, but that's another
>story.
>
>--Kang Howson-Jan
> (kang.ho...@lhsc.on.ca)
> (k...@julian.uwo.ca)
> London, Canada
I agree with you about Horestein, probably the most underrated
conductor of all time, but why mix him with Levine, by far the most
OVERRATED conductor of, at least, our time?
Unknown
In article <3353204a...@news.mclink.it>,
md1...@mclink.it (Umberto Posarelli) wrote:
>I agree with you about Horestein, probably the most underrated
>conductor of all time, but why mix him with Levine, by far the most
>OVERRATED conductor of, at least, our time?
You're entitled to state your opinion of course. For me, the common thread
there was live performances of Parsifal. I have had the pleasure of hearing
both of these conductors perform it, several times in Levine's case.
MWKluge
In article <5im13o$6...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed
waffle) writes:
>I am without your experience in hearing Horenstein live and find it
>difficult to definitively judge just what it is that sets one recording
>of a work apart from another--there are a lot of variables and I do not
>have the training to seperate each from the other.
> HOWEVER, I find when I want to listen to Bruckner or Mahler (having
>begun to listen seriously to Mahler just in the past year)--or
>introduce a friend to them--I almost always reach for a recording
>conducted by Jascha Horenstein.
> Is there a particular recommendation for him conducting
>Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht? How about the same composers's
>Variations for Orchestra?
> ECW
Verklaerte Nacht is simple: there is a Vox Box with that work,
Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1, and Strauss- Don, Till, D & T. The
transfers are good. That statement is necessarily made with the caveat
that the original LPs definitely did not represent the best sound of their
time (1955-57). However, the music comes through. Horenstein's
Verklaerte Nacht is on the broad side, but he uses that breadth for
rhetorical elbow room.
Although live performance tapes of the Chamber Symphony and Verklaerte
Nacht also exist, the Variations, alas, do not.
Mark K.
bruce_l._northwood
In article <5ij78h$9...@lori.zippo.com>, Steve says...
>
>
>In article
><Mahesh_Sardesai-ya023...@news.brown.edu>,
>Mahesh_...@brown.edu says...
>>
>>In article <pedro.81...@bms.brookes.ac.uk>,
>>pe...@bms.brookes.ac.uk
>>(Pedro Moniz Barreto) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <owen-05049...@dyn153a.pvx-ri.ids.net>
>>>ow...@ids.net
>>(Owen Hartnett) writes:
>>>>I'll agree with you on Ormandy. I think he's rated exactly
>>>right, a class
>>>>above today's rather conservatory stamped conductors, but
>>>not in the big
>>>>league of Toscanini, Reiner, Furtwangler, et al. I don
>>>think he's in any
>>>>way overrated, certainly not as overrated as some of
>>>today's maestros.
>>>
>>>>He's made some wonderful recordings, and you'll definitely
>>>experience the
>>>>Philadelphia "big sound" with him, whatever your feelings
>>>on the
>>>>orchestral precision vs. impressionistic orchestra colors
>>>argument is. I
>>>>found him reliable, you can expect a certain sound and
>>>performance level
>>>>from his recordings, and not be disappointed. His best
>>>would be in those
>>>>works where color and effect predominate, but he could
>>>occasionally zing
>>> >the German masterworks with the best of them.
>>>
>>>So if you had to reccomend a couple of records to
>>>demonstrate/illustrate
>>> Ormandy's art which would they be?
>>>
>>>I had for a short period his Carmina Burana and was not
>>>overly impressed.
>>>However I had the impression that the fault was more on the
>>>sound that came
>>> from the CD
>>>
>>
>>FWIW, the Penguin Guide gives this Carmina Burana a rosette,
>>mostly for the
>>Rutgers University Choir. Of course, given that it's a
>>piece about
>>partying in a tavern and enjoying love in the spring, I'm
>>not so surprised
>>that a college choir would do so well! :-)
>>
>>I used to have Ormandy's CD of Pictures at an Exhibition and
>>enjoyed it
>>very mu
>>
>>--
>>Mahesh P. Sardesai, Brown University
>>Mahesh_...@brown.edu
>>http://www.netspace.org/~sardesai
>>
>>NEW! http://www.brown.edu/Students/Brown_University_Chorus/
>////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
>Dear Sirs,
>
>Ormandy was one of the two best accompanists of the 20th
>century. The other being Barbirolli. Secondly, I will tell
>you a little secret Claudia Cassidy once told me. William
>Kapell was going to leave RCA before he died and sign a
>contract over at Columbia. The first rason is he would have
>been their star pianist. The other rason was Ormandy was at
>Columbia and Kapell thought he was the best accompanist
>around. Yes, Ormandy did some boring conducting. However,
>when Ormandy was having a good day, particularly wi
>Sibelius and Rachmaninov, there was nothing else like him.
>Furthermore, Ormandy still had the sound of the
>Philadelphia. When you hear the Philadelphia under Ormandy,
>you know exactly what orchesta it is. Can you say that for
>Muti, Mehta, Slatkin (who leaned absolutely nothing from his
>old man), or any other of
>the worthless hacks around these days?
>
>What is amazing to me is that the classical labels have not
>figured out why their sales are down. They have no one to
>conduct the music anymore.
>
>Steve Ginsberg
>opus 10
Having grown up in Philly and at the Academy of Music in the Ormandy years
into the Muti era I can only say RIGHT ON STEVE!!!!
Bruce
Lani Spahr
I've been following this thread for sometime now and thought I'd finally
put in my $0.02.
There are some Ormandy things that I would absolutely NEVER want to be
without:
All his Rachmaninov
All his Ravel and Debussy
Mahler 10th
Saint-Saens 3rd (I've got 3 of the 4 versions he did)
As has been said, when he was "on" and in his metier, he was absolutely
marvelous.
Then again, when he was _not_ (such as in his Beethoven and Mozart), then we
have other conductors to listen to. But without a doubt, that was a
virtuoso orchestra of the first rank.
my $0.02
Cheers,
Lani Spahr
Ramon Khalona
Here are some wonderful examples of Ormandy's art (IMHO):
* Sibelius' Four Legends from the Kalevala (EMI)
* Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra (EMI)
* Sibelius' Symphonies 2 & 7 (Sony)
* Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (Sony)
* Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony (Columbia LP)
His really fine recordings as an accompanist with the Philadelphians
are so numerous that I will limit myself to just one:
* Paganini's Violin Concerto No. 1 with Zino Francescatti on Sony.
A superb interpretation and recording from the end of the mono days.
It is available on a Sony CD. The only caveat is that Francescatti
plays the short version of the concerto, but it's brilliant.
* For good measure, I'll throw in the recording of the Schumann Cello
Concerto with Casals and the Prades Festival Orchestra (Columbia LP).
I await the CD release of this with great anticipation.
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
Arthur L. Shapiro
I too had the pleasure of seeing Ormandy many times, and disagree with any
assessment of being overrated. Nonetheless, I suspect history might not treat
him as kindly as he deserves.
I guess my own fond concert memories, aside from recordings, might be:
a). the Mahler / Cooke 10th; I still find the LP to be my preferred version of
the 10th.
b). the US premiere of the Shostakovich 13th.
c). A wonderful Rachmaninoff 3rd.
d). An astounding performance with Rostrapovich of the Prokofiev Sinfonia
Concertante.
Art
Donald C. Patterson
Ramon wrote:
> Here are some wonderful examples of Ormandy's art (IMHO):
>
> * Sibelius' Four Legends from the Kalevala (EMI)
Eh?
> * Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra (EMI)
Perhaps :-)
> * Sibelius' Symphonies 2 & 7 (Sony)
Don't know it.
> * Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (Sony)
Certainly!
> * Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony (Columbia LP)
You bet!
>
> Ramon Khalona
> Carlsbad, California
I must add the best things I have heard from Ormandy.
Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphosis on EMI (not Sony)
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (Sony)
--
Don Patterson at <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
the views of the US Marine Band or the Marine Corp.
Ramon Khalona
David M. Cook wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:57:01 -0400,
> Donald C. Patterson <*NOSPAM*@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >> * Sibelius' Four Legends from the Kalevala (EMI)
>
> >Eh?
>
>
> I second the original poster. This is a fantastic recording.
>
> Dave Cook
Thank you, Dave Cook. I thought I'd add a little about this
work/recording. The "Four Legends" is one of Sibelius' most atmospheric
works. The Swan of Tuonela, one of his most popular works, is just one
of the legends. But to experience the full force of this work and
recording, one really has to listen to Lemminkainen's Return (the third
legend). All lovers of fine brass playing (including Don Patterson) are
cordially invited to listen to this.
Regards,
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
David M. Cook
Donald B Drewecki
I wish to comment on one of Ormandy's legacies, and that is the
Philadelphia Orchestra summer seasons at the Saratoga Performing Arts
Center.
Sad to say, the Ormandy legacy in Saratoga is an endless series of
repetitions of Tchaikovsky's last three symphonies, Mussorgsky's
Pictures, and a half-dozen other showpieces. Perhaps when Ormandy was
still alive, one could say that these warhorses packed the crowds in,
but now that he has been gone for over a decade, audiences at SPAC have
declined sharply. Instead of trying to make SPAC into an
internationally respected summer festival, Saratoga officials treat the
Philadelphia Orchestra merely as expensive hired hands who will repeat
the Tchaikovsky Fourth whenever you tell them to.
I grant the fact that, three or four years after the opening season in
1966, Ormandy did give us summer performances of the last Shostakovich
symphonies, the Mahler Second, and a few other things. But by and
large, it was Ormandy who sold out the serious music lovers of the
Capital District area, by endlessly repeating those warhorses.
Yes, Ormandy did make some really superb recordings, and up to the end
he kept the orchestra sounding just wonderful -- and I know, becase I
also heard them in Philadelphia, and they really did play with that
lush, warm, full, robust tone that we know from the records. But in
Saratoga, I can feel nothing but bitterness at the way the great
orchestra is shabbily treated by management. Ormandy caved in, as he
caved into management so often in his life, and killed any chance of the
Saratoga Performing Arts Center's emergence as a rival to Tanglewood.
Wasn't there a report published somewhere in the late 1970s, in which an
Orchestra board member was quoted as saying, "Gene would clean out the
ashtrays if we asked him to." That pretty well sums up half of the
legacy of Eugene Ormandy. The other half is that he preserved, and
maybe even made greater -- maybe -- the unique Philadelphia Orchestra.
Don Drewecki
<dre...@rpi.edu>
The Melsons
On 20 Apr 1997 11:27:50 -0400, dre...@lecture.its.rpi.edu (Donald B
Drewecki) wrote:
Before you condemn Ormandy for what you allege to be unadventurous
programming at Saratoga, you should ask some questions:
1) Who was calling the shots at the time for programming at Saratoga?
Could it be that the festival had contractual veto power over
programming? And if it didn't have veto power, did the festival
explicitly or implicitly use non-renewal of the Philly Saratoga
contract as a threat to keep the programming as the festival
management wanted it?
2) What was the rehearsal situation at the time for Philly concerts at
Saratoga? If it was one rehearsal per concert, as summer festivals
sometimes are, can a conductor be blamed for sticking with warhorses
the orchestra knows?
3) What was Ormandy's health and energy level like during the 1970s at
Saratoga? I understand from those close to the orchestra that the mid
and late 70s were a period of decline for him. Can he be blamed at
that stage in his life for sticking with the tried and true?
Concert programming is a complex process. A conductor has many bosses
to answer to on this issue, especially away from home base. If the
programming was as you describe it, let's show some appreciation for
the realities with which Ormandy had to deal.
Mark Melson