Szell in Chicago-40 years to the day...
Todd Schurk
Beethoven concert conducted by George Szell. It was I believe the last
time Szell guest conducted the CSO. The "Prometheus" Overture is the
only item from the concert to be "officially" released (in a CSO Guest
set)...This concert may have contained Szell's best Beethoven 5 & 6
symphonies preserved. The orchestra really play hard for him and they
are on fire. It's fun to compare these with the records from Cleveland/
Amsterdam/Vienna of the 5th. That Herseth trumpet section is having a
field day. I wonder what the orchestra (CSO) thought of Szell. I know
he didn't guest there much. Cassidy and Mrs. Reiner thought him the
coldest. I reading of them (I think it was them) that Szell had to
cancel due to a fever...he had gotten up to 96 degrees....Todd S.
notes...@yahoo.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0PLG5SEDu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUzprAO_KE
There is also a fine Beethoven 5th on the DVD. From the series of CSO
DVDs released by VAI recordings.
Most of the telecasts were filmed in a studio with a reduced string
section. But it's fun to see and hear the Reiner era CSO.
Reiner appears on 2 of the discs and included is an exciting reading
of Beethoven's 7th. Other conductors in the series are Monteux, Munch,
and Hindemith.
Bruce
"M.W. Kluge"
It was indeed the last time Szell conducted the Chicago Symphony.
Robert C. Marsh told the story of how he convinced Szell to cut the
last rehearsal short (because he knew Szell was prone to over-
polishing). Thus the performance had an extra degree of freshness,
but Szell was mad at Marsh afterwards because the playing was not as
hair-trigger precise as he liked!
Mark
Dontait...@aol.com
From "The Right Place; the Right Time!" by Donald Peck, principal
flutist of the Chicago Symphony from 1958 to 1999 (Indiana University
Press, 2007):
"A conductor who came to Chicago a few times as a guest was George
Szell, music director at that time of the Cleveland Orchestra. We had
the distinct impression that, with the departure of Fritz Reiner in
1962, Szell wanted to become the next music director of the Chicago
Symphony. He was nervous when he was here, so things did not go well
at the concerts. He made mistakes on the podium, which resulted in the
orchestra's looking bad. There was a terrible episode during one
performance of Beehoven's Sixth Symphony. Szell was most emphatic,
stating, 'Watch me, watch me! After the storm scene, I will make a cut-
off before we go on.' The concert came. He did *not* make the cut-off.
Half of the orchestra did make a cut-off as he had admonished, and the
other half didn't. It was a scramble.
"During each of his three performances of Schumann's First Symphony
there were problems in the last movement: he might conduct or not
conduct, give entrance cues or not give them. All in all, that three-
week period was rife with conductorial errors. Although he had done a
fine job with the Cleveland Orchestra, conducting the CSO was not his
metier. For us he was too much of a pedant." (Page 65, Chapter Five,
"Guest Conductors")
Don Tait
P.S. I was told the following story by Scott Thomas, who does
occasional announcing at WFMT in Chicago and was a student of the
CSO's former second clarinetist, Jerome Stowell. Scott said that
Stowell told it to him.
At the time of a Szell performance of Beethoven's Sixth Symphony
with the CSO, the orchestra's principal clarinetist, Clark Brody, was
on vacation. So Stowell was playing first. During a rehearsal, Szell
stopped during the third movement (the peasants et cetera) and said he
thought the important clarinet solo might sound better with a clarinet
in another key. (I remember no details and, sorry, clarinetists, I
don't know the various keys of the instruments. Anyway:) Stowell
realized that to do that, he'd have to transpose his part at sight,
something he thought he wasn't at all good at doing. So he ducked
down, spent a little time seeming to go through the instruments et
cetera on the floor next to his chair, and popped back up with his
clarinet ready to go. Szell resumed conducting, then eventually said
"splendid! That's the clarinet sound I wanted!" Except that, perhaps
out of desperation, Stowell had used the same clarinet as before.
Curtis Croulet
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
Good deal. Neat.
Don Tait
Todd Schurk
When I startred this thread I had hopes that you might chime in with a
CSO/Szell anecdote Don! Thanks for coming through as usual-a terrific
story....(though I hear no such train wreck at the point mentioned in
the 3/22/68 CSO "Pastoral" which is quite a more flowing/glowing
account than in Cleveland 7 years prior, the Epic/CBS/Sony account
most are familiar with.) Thanks,Todd S.
notes...@yahoo.com
another musician whose quick thinking eased an encounter with Szell:
George Szell prided himself on knowing the intricacies of all
orchestral instruments, even down to suggesting alternate fingerings
to his woodwinds and brass in rehearsal, to solve little technical
problems.
Thomas Wohlwender, former 2nd trumpet in Cleveland, was warming up
backstage when Szell approached him. The conductor asked if the note
he had just played was fingered with all 3 valves. The trumpeter
replied that yes, it was. Szell asked what the alternate fingering for
the note was.
The note in question, low C sharp, has no alternate as it is in the
low range of the instrument. Wohlwender, not wanting to correct Szell,
replied that he did not know the alternate fingering. "Neither do I",
said Szell, who then went on his way.
Bruce
francis
wonderful stories. I wouldn't necessarily attach a lot of
significance to Szell's Chicago Symphony relationship ending in 1968,
two years before his death. Those last two seasons comprised Szell's
tenure Music Advisor of the New York Philharmonic (following the
departure of Bernstein) which he held in adddition to his duties in
Cleveland (also increased due to the opening of the Blossom Music
Center). So his guest conducting everywhere else was curtailed.
Would Szell have accepted a Chicago Symphony appointment in the 60s
following Reiner's stepping down and subsequent death, had it been
offered? I don't think so. He was not above using possible offers in
his own contract negotiations with Cleveland management--and he put
his own prestige on the line to help management settle with the
musicians union negotiators on at least two occasions.
That said, Szell's one comment about the CSO of which I am aware is
that it was "the Cadillac of orchestras. You put it in drive and it
goes whatever you want it to go." He was a close friend of Eric
Oldberg--longtime president of the CSO and son of the Northwestern
University composer Arne Oldberg--and my reading of the two Reiner
biographies suggest that the younger Oldberg was far more fond of and
comfortable with Szell than with the difficult and frequently absent
Reiner. My guess is that had Cassidy not been so stridently anti-
Szell, Oldberg would have tried to engage him. And, no question,
Cassidy disliked Szell's tight, taught, hypercontrolled
interpretations--though based on that 1968 concert of the Beethoven
Fifth and Sixth, I'd be hard pressed to suggest he was any more so
than Reiner-who she adored, at least early in his tenure. Before
Reiner's engagement, Szell conducted a Beethoven Ninth that she tore
to shreds in print, but which she acknowledged to have been a smash
hit with the audience.
Incidentally, I don't share Todd's preference for the CSO performance
over Szell's second commercial Cleveland recording which I find to be
the defination of flowing & glowing. I am glad to have both and thank
Todd for raising the topic.
FC
MSWD...@gmail.com
> "During each of his three performances of Schumann's First Symphony
> there were problems in the last movement: he might conduct or not
> conduct, give entrance cues or not give them. All in all, that three-
> week period was rife with conductorial errors. Although he had done a
> fine job with the Cleveland Orchestra, conducting the CSO was not his
> metier. For us he was too much of a pedant." (Page 65, Chapter Five,
> "Guest Conductors")
Is Peck's book generally as pointed as this? Could be a very
interesting read.
Tim
Yes, I've been curious about the Peck book, too. Has anyone here read
it and, if so, what 's it like?
And a question for F C (and anyone else): if one could read only one
of the Reiner bios, which would it be and why? I've been pondering
this question for a while. thanks
Tim Koerner
francis
My view on the Kenneth Martin and Philip Hart Reiner biographies:
Hart's is organized more along the lines of traditional biography,
Martin's newer by almost a decade and full of musical insight.
They're both fine books that manage to steer pretty clear of
hagiography. As they say in handicapping: pick 'em! (They're both
fairly short--so if you can borrow through interlibrary loan--I'd read
them both.)
A couple of add'l observations:
One of the two books stated that in the early 60s, when the CSO board
was intent on easing Reiner out--by incrementally diminishing his
role, Reiner telephoned Szell for advice. Szell's advice: hang on to
the musical director title as long as you can, regardless of actual
authority.
There was, several years ago, a very interesting piece in
International Record Collector (or in one of its previous
incarnations) on Szell's work with the London Symphony. One of the
musicians quoted made an interesting observation--while he had
exceptional ears for the job, and as thorough score comprehension and
assimilation as any conductor, Szell did not possess one of the great
baton techniques--in fact had to work very hard in this regard. I
don't know if I agree, but I think it is without question that he was
most effective with his own orchestra--and that, especially in his
last decade--his baton technique there was pretty much beyond the
point of mattering--since he'd trained the players' collective ears so
well. All this is especially relevant when comparing Szell and
Reiner, who is generally acknowledged to have been among the greatest
of all baton technicians.
FC
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> When I startred this thread I had hopes that you might chime in with a
> CSO/Szell anecdote Don! Thanks for coming through as usual-a terrific
> story....(though I hear no such train wreck at the point mentioned in
> the 3/22/68 CSO "Pastoral" which is quite a more flowing/glowing
> account than in Cleveland 7 years prior, the Epic/CBS/Sony account
> most are familiar with.) Thanks,Todd S.
Thank you, Todd. Regarding the Pastoral Symphony, Peck did not say
whether or not the performance at which the train wreck occurred was
in 1968; it's possible that Szell conducted it with the CSO at earlier
concerts, although I don't know. Concerning why nothing like it is in
the 1968 broadcast, throughout the time that WFMT recorded and
distributed the broadcasts every performance of every program was
recorded, as were the rehearsals. Something like what Peck described
would definitely have been replaced with a section from a successful
performance (Peck wrote that the mixup only happened once).
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
It depends upon what you'd find interesting. There are chapters
describing such things as his experiences on the CSO's tours (largely
what he did on his own, not the performances), his non-CSO
performances, his solo repertoire with the orchestra and elsewhere,
and so on. But the chapters about soloists he has known, making
recordings, music directors, staff conductors, and so on have much
interesting information. He's very pointed about Barenboim. He says
that the CSO enjoyed working with him during the numerous years that
he was a guest conductor but that when he became music director he
changed distinctly, and Peck's dislike is clear. Among guest
conductors, he praises some; others, such as Gunther Wand, he treats
very harshly.
The book is short -- 136 pages of text, with several appendices that
are repertoire lists. I'd estimate that about half of the text, at
most, contains things such as the Szell anecdotes.
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
> that the CSO enjoyed working with him during the numerous years that
> he was a guest conductor but that when he became music director he
> changed distinctly, and Peck's dislike is clear.
What didn't he like about Barenboim?
Dontait...@aol.com
> And a question for F C (and anyone else): �if one could read only one
> of the Reiner bios, which would it be and why? �I've been pondering
> this question for a while. � �thanks
>
> Tim Koerner
I know them both. I suggest Philip Hart's book for a couple of
reasons. First, he knew Reiner personally and worked in the
administration of the Chicago Symphony during Reiner's tenure as Music
Director. He heard Reiner conduct live on a huge number of occasions.
The other author, Kenneth Morgan, freely admits that he never saw or
heard Reiner live and most definitely had no personal contact with
him. Second, Philip Hart's contact with Reiner enables him to make
Reiner's strange personality understandable and to perhaps explain the
reasons for it. I also find Hart's writing better. Morgan's prose
strikes me as a bit stuffy (as well as occasionally repetitive).
Morgan's book contains one or two chapters that attempt to analyze
Reiner's conducting, but since he had only recordings to work with, he
could only deduce from that evidence. And he makes mistakes,
occasionally major ones. For instance, Morgan writes at great length
about first movement repeats -- whether they are, or should be, played
or not. He mentions that the surviving recording of Mendelssohn's
Italian Symphony with Reiner/CSO omits the repeat, but does not
mention that that derives from a one-hour telecast. It is entirely
possible that Reiner dropped the repeat to make the music fit into the
rigid timetable, but Morgan does not mention that possibility.
Similarly, he gets the Monteux Brahms Second Symphony repeat business
almost totally wrong. He writes that Monteux played the repeat in his
San Francisco Symphony recordings (he didn't) but omitted it in his
recording with the Vienna Philharmonic. That, in fact, was the first
recording to *include* the repeat. There are more such examples.
I realize that these may seem like small issues, and perhaps they
are. However, I have always felt that when there are errors of fact
that I recognize, there might be more that I don't. It casts doubt
over a lot for me.
Ideally, I would recommend reading both. In numerous ways, they are
different achievements and complement each other. But if you only want
one, Philip Hart will do a better job of bringing Reiner to life
although he does not attempt to analyze his conducting as much as
Morgan does.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> > He's very pointed about Barenboim. He says
> > that the CSO enjoyed working with him during the numerous years that
> > he was a guest conductor but that when he became music director he
> > changed distinctly, and Peck's dislike is clear.
>
> What didn't he like about Barenboim?
In part:
"He immediately wanted to change everything that had been, including
the seating of the orchestra sections on the stage, the sound of the
orchestra, the attitude toward music-making, etc., etc. He chose to
forget that the orchestra had been one of the top three symphonic
ensembles for the past twenty-two years. With this posture he gave a
demeaning experience to the players, who were outright
offended." ("Twenty-two years" is clearly a reference to Solti.)
There about three pages about Barenboim, including full praise for
his musicianship, mind, and pianism. But the above is indicative. It
seems clear that Peck, at least, was happy to see Barenboim go. He
writes that Barenboim tried to change everything too quickly and that
the performances with him were not what the CSO musicians were capable
of playing.
Don Tait
Paul Goldstein
Dontait...@aol.com says...
>
>On Mar 24, 10:57=EF=BF=BDam, Tim <tmkoerne...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> And a question for F C (and anyone else): =EF=BF=BDif one could read only =
>one
>> of the Reiner bios, which would it be and why? =EF=BF=BDI've been ponderin=
>g
>> this question for a while. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDthanks
>>
>> Tim Koerner
>
> I know them both. I suggest Philip Hart's book for a couple of
I agree that the Hart book is an excellent one - among the best conductor
biographies I've read. I haven't read the Morgan.
ansermetniac
wrote:
>On Mar 24, 1:17?pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
Peck is a professional orchestral Musician. If you don't like the
Music Director, go somewhere else. His criticisms sound very
unprofessional. Maybe he should auditon for the MD job.
Is it demeaning to play what the Conductor requests?
Abbedd
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT), Dontaitchic...@aol.com
Don Peck played loyally, always doing his best, in the CSO without
expressing any opinions publicly until he retired in 1999. Is it not
permitted for a musician, now retired, to express his opinions? Or
have any at all? Or are they to be mute slaves until death?
Don Tait
ansermetniac
wrote:
>On Mar 24, 2:08?pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT), Dontaitchic...@aol.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 24, 1:17?pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
>> >wrote:
>> >> > He's very pointed about Barenboim. He says
>> >> > that the CSO enjoyed working with him during the numerous years that
>> >> > he was a guest conductor but that when he became music director he
>> >> > changed distinctly, and Peck's dislike is clear.
>>
>> >> What didn't he like about Barenboim?
>>
>> > ?In part:
>>
>> > ?"He immediately wanted to change everything that had been, including
>> >the seating of the orchestra sections on the stage, the sound of the
>> >orchestra, the attitude toward music-making, etc., etc. He chose to
>> >forget that the orchestra had been one of the top three symphonic
>> >ensembles for the past twenty-two years. With this posture he gave a
>> >demeaning experience to the players, who were outright
>> >offended." ("Twenty-two years" is clearly a reference to Solti.)
>>
>> > ?There about three pages about Barenboim, including full praise for
>> >his musicianship, mind, and pianism. But the above is indicative. It
>> >seems clear that Peck, at least, was happy to see Barenboim go. He
>> >writes that Barenboim tried to change everything too quickly and that
>> >the performances with him were not what the CSO musicians were capable
>> >of playing.
>>
>> > ?Don Tait
>>
>> Peck is a professional orchestral Musician. If you don't like the
>> Music Director, go somewhere else. His criticisms ?sound very
>> unprofessional. Maybe he should auditon for the MD job.
>>
>> Is it demeaning to play what the Conductor requests?
>>
>> Abbedd
>
> Don Peck played loyally, always doing his best, in the CSO without
>expressing any opinions publicly until he retired in 1999. Is it not
>permitted for a musician, now retired, to express his opinions? Or
>have any at all? Or are they to be mute slaves until death?
>
> Don Tait
Not at all. His objection to Barenboim trying to get HIS sound out of
the orchestra is peculiar. I hope, as you say, he did nothing to
prevent Barenboim from doing his job.
Abbedd
Curtis Croulet
> the orchestra is peculiar. I hope, as you say, he did nothing to
> prevent Barenboim from doing his job.
I would expect that Peck, as a professional in the very top rank of his
profession, did his best to play according to the conductor's wishes.
That's the work environment we all face: you do your best to make the boss
look good, but you still may privately think he's an idiot, incompetent,
clueless, or whatever may be your personal opinion. In the present case,
Don's quote zeroes in on something I've long wondered about: Solti famously
emphasized a brassy, aggressive sound, and I would gather that the CSO's
personnel, whether due to training, personal inclinations, previous
experiences with Reiner -- whatever -- fit right in with that concept.
Barenboim likes a mellower sound. I've long wondered how that concept
squared, professionals dealing with professionals, with the CSO's natural
inclinations.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Not at all. His objection to Barenboim trying to get HIS sound out of
> the orchestra is peculiar. I hope, as you say, he did nothing to
> prevent Barenboim from doing his job.
I'm sure he didn't, especially because a flutist's sound isn't going
to be changed radically. Especially Donald Peck's.
Not everyone is able to quit a job on principle and find another in
time to avoid financial difficulty, especially a principal flute
player in a symphony orchestra. That is surely a matter for
consideration.
I think that Don Peck's objection about Barenboim's desire to change
the sound of the CSO might have been grounded in the immense pride the
CSO musicians felt in the reputation the orchestra had gained during
the previous twenty-two years with Solti. We Chicagoans knew how great
the CSO was; Stravinsky, Leopold Stokowski, George Szell and others
praised it to the skies. It was with Solti after 1970 that the
orchestra became world-famous. And when Barenboim became Music
Director in 1991 he immediately set about changing the sound, as if it
were bad. Perhaps the high-wire blare was. But the musicians were
proud of their orchestra and themselves. Suddenly, with Barenboim,
what they had done was wrong. I think that might be what Donald Peck
was getting at -- that Barenboim's abrupt attempt to change everything
about their sound was psychologically inept and could have been done
more gradually, with less harm to their self-esteem. And their opinion
of him.
Don Tait
MSWD...@gmail.com
> I think that Don Peck's objection about Barenboim's desire to change
> the sound of the CSO might have been grounded in the immense pride the
> CSO musicians felt in the reputation the orchestra had gained during
> the previous twenty-two years with Solti. We Chicagoans knew how great
> the CSO was; Stravinsky, Leopold Stokowski, George Szell and others
> praised it to the skies. It was with Solti after 1970 that the
> orchestra became world-famous. And when Barenboim became Music
> Director in 1991 he immediately set about changing the sound, as if it
> were bad. Perhaps the high-wire blare was. But the musicians were
> proud of their orchestra and themselves. Suddenly, with Barenboim,
> what they had done was wrong. I think that might be what Donald Peck
> was getting at -- that Barenboim's abrupt attempt to change everything
> about their sound was psychologically inept and could have been done
> more gradually, with less harm to their self-esteem. And their opinion
> of him.
> Don Tait
This is a bit of a guess, but perhaps the players saw the corporate
sound/collective tradition of the orchestra put in jeopardy by such
radical changes. The great orchestras seem to show a consistent
personality (the NY Phil and BPO haven't really benefitted form seeing
their sound change from MD to MD). One can pretty easily see that
Barenboim wasn't interested in the CSO "brand", being much more
interested in a European sound. It may be highly inaccurate, but I
tend to think that the ghost in the machine of the CSO is the NBC
Symphony. And that would made DB and the CSO just a bad match.
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
[in part!]
> Don's quote zeroes in on something I've long wondered about: Solti famously
> emphasized a brassy, aggressive sound, and I would gather that the CSO's
> personnel, whether due to training, personal inclinations, previous
> experiences with Reiner -- whatever -- fit right in with that concept.
> Barenboim likes a mellower sound. �I've long wondered how that concept
> squared, professionals dealing with professionals, with the CSO's natural
> inclinations.
Hi --
The Reiner and Solti sounds were utterly different. I heard both
live. With Reiner, there was almost a veil over the sound of the
violin sections; it was like dark silk or satin. The brass always
blended; they were never overly prominent, nor did they ever "scream."
They invariably played their parts with an eye and ear to the role
their were playing in the music as a whole and its harmony. And they
colored their playing, even their individual notes, to an almost vocal
style. Two perfect recorded examples of this are the RCA "Living
Stereo" CDs of Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead (for the veiled string
sound) and Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey from Wagner's
Goetterdaemmerung (for the peerless brass playing, tone, and sensitive
phrasing). But with Reiner the dynamic range could be overwhelming;
records didn't capture it. The sheer massiveness of the sound -- but
always clean, and with so much color -- was so gorgeous.
Solti got a completely different sonority, and in fact evoked it
evidently by his mere presence. I've written about it here before. I
heard his first Orchestra Hall CSO concerts ever, around 1965. Even
then it was a raw, screaming, blaring, ear-splitting, colorless sound.
The CSO was transformed and, apparently, electrified. As it would
apparently be with him until he died.
Barenboim is a conscious Furtwaengler disciple. He wants to conduct
like him and to make orchestras sound like Furtwaengler orchestras,
the classic mellow German sound with the sonority built from the
bottom up. When he took over the CSO in 1991 he immediately went to
work to try to change its sonority from the Solti one to the latter.
Don Tait
ansermetniac
wrote:
>d Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey from Wagner's
>Goetterdaemmerung (for the peerless brass playing, tone, and sensitive
>phrasing
If BMG would refrain from the butchery of RCA and presented the NBC
Sym as they must have sounded live, the word peerless would make less
sense. Also the 1949 Stoky NY Phil Rhine Journey has some pretty good
brass playing, as does the 1953 live Cantelli
Abbedd
rkhalona
wrote:
> > He's very pointed about Barenboim. He says
> > that the CSO enjoyed working with him during the numerous years that
> > he was a guest conductor but that when he became music director he
> > changed distinctly, and Peck's dislike is clear.
>
> What didn't he like about Barenboim?
What's there to like? :-)
I liked Peck's book, but it is way too short for a man who spent so
many years with the orchestra.
RK
rkhalona
>
>
> One of the two books stated that in the early 60s, when the CSO board
> was intent on easing Reiner out--by incrementally diminishing his
> role, Reiner telephoned Szell for advice. Szell's advice: hang on to
> the musical director title as long as you can, regardless of actual
> authority.
>
Szell was known as very shrewd negotiator. John Culshaw says in his
memoirs that when he started in the business he worked for a very
clever record producer, Maurice Rosengarten (IIRC), and in all the
years he worked under him he saw only one conductor take the better
part of him: George Szell.
RK
Dontait...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I must say that the sound of the NBC Symphony Orchestra was foreign
to the CSO at any time. Barenboim, I'd think, would never have had the
sound of the NBC Symphony in his mind. After all, that was the sound
created by Arturo Toscanini, not his idol and the conductor he wishes
he were and has tried to imitate, Wilhelm Furtwaengler.
Don Tait
ansermetniac
wrote:
>On Mar 24, 3:57?pm, MSWDes...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 3:22 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > ? I think that Don Peck's objection about Barenboim's desire to change
>> > the sound of the CSO might have been grounded in the immense pride the
>> > CSO musicians felt in the reputation the orchestra had gained during
>> > the previous twenty-two years with Solti. We Chicagoans knew how great
>> > the CSO was; Stravinsky, Leopold Stokowski, George Szell and others
>> > praised it to the skies. It was with Solti after 1970 that the
>> > orchestra became world-famous. And when Barenboim became Music
>> > Director in 1991 he immediately set about changing the sound, as if it
>> > were bad. Perhaps the high-wire blare was. But the musicians were
>> > proud of their orchestra and themselves. Suddenly, with Barenboim,
>> > what they had done was wrong. I think that might be what Donald Peck
>> > was getting at -- that Barenboim's abrupt attempt to change everything
>> > about their sound was psychologically inept and could have been done
>> > more gradually, with less harm to their self-esteem. And their opinion
>> > of him.
>> > ? Don Tait
>>
>> This is a bit of a guess, but perhaps the players saw the corporate
>> sound/collective tradition of the orchestra put in jeopardy by such
>> radical changes. ?The great orchestras seem to show a consistent
>> personality (the NY Phil and BPO haven't really benefitted form seeing
>> their sound change from MD to MD). One can pretty easily see that
>> Barenboim wasn't interested in the CSO "brand", being much more
>> interested in a European sound. ?It may be highly inaccurate, but I
>> tend to think that the ghost in the machine of the CSO is the NBC
>> Symphony. ?And that would made DB and the CSO just a bad match.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I must say that the sound of the NBC Symphony Orchestra was foreign
>to the CSO at any time. Barenboim, I'd think, would never have had the
>sound of the NBC Symphony in his mind. After all, that was the sound
>created by Arturo Toscanini, not his idol and the conductor he wishes
>he were and has tried to imitate, Wilhelm Furtwaengler.
>
> Don Tait
I agree. But I will add that many of the things said about the CSO
brass , true or untrue, are true about the NBC Brass post 1946. The
CSO horns, whether in the Reiner or Solti era,but especially in the
Solti era, coudn't touch the NBC horns of 1938-54
Listen to the Stoky 1966 Pascaglia and Fugue. Near the end, the horns
sound barely better than a community orchestra section. Stoky was used
to Horner and Berv, with big horns.
Abbedd
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:16:46 -0700 (PDT), Dontaitchic...@aol.com
I was in Orchestra Hall for that in 1966. I guess that what you
heard that night is different from what I heard live, in person, and
still can hear from my off-WFMT tape. Were you there? Where did you
sit? I was in the gallery. In person, it was balanced perfectly. Trust
me. I was there and heard it. I know the off-air recording very well,
too. And ideal playing isn't as important as a great performance that
sweeps one away, which is what this was. Stokowski adapted himself to
the orchestras he conducted, Horner, Berv, or not. Read about him.
Don Tait
jrs...@aol.com
You could say the ghost in the machine of many American orchestras is,
to some extent, that NBC/Toscanini legacy, and afterward the example
of Szell and Reiner. But not quite, since Boston, Philadelphia, LA,
and New York evolved separately with some crossfertilization, of
course.
In any case, Barenboim would not be an ideal "fit" anywhere in the US,
but his guest conducting in Chicago prior to 1992 produced some
promising results. Also, keep in mind that no matter what the legacy,
any great conductor is going to make changes and the potential for
Barenboim to meet the musicians halfway was very good, given all the
years they'd known each other. Many of their concerts attested to how
good a "fit" Barenboim really was, given time. This is a testament to
the willingness of the musicians to work with him, and welcome his
approach. I imagine he just took it too fast, too hard, with an
unfortunate dose of overconfidence, probably. Too bad--a willing
ensemble, a great legacy, a willingness to evolve and change, a long
prior working relationship: the factors for success were there. In any
case, it wasn't exactly a disastrous period, as one might think from
this discussion.
--Jeff
ansermetniac
wrote:
>> > ?I must say that the sound of the NBC Symphony Orchestra was foreign
>> >to the CSO at any time. Barenboim, I'd think, would never have had the
>> >sound of the NBC Symphony in his mind. After all, that was the sound
>> >created by Arturo Toscanini, not his idol and the conductor he wishes
>> >he were and has tried to imitate, Wilhelm Furtwaengler.
>>
>> > ?Don Tait
>>
>> I agree. But I will add that ?many of the things said about the CSO
>> brass , true or untrue, are true about the NBC Brass post 1946. The
>> CSO horns, whether in the Reiner or Solti era,but especially in the
>> Solti era, coudn't touch the NBC horns of 1938-54
>>
>> Listen to the Stoky 1966 Pascaglia and Fugue. Near the end, the horns
>> sound barely better than a community orchestra section. Stoky was used
>> to Horner and Berv, with big horns.
>
> I was in Orchestra Hall for that in 1966. I guess that what you
>heard that night is different from what I heard live, in person, and
>still can hear from my off-WFMT tape. Were you there? Where did you
>sit? I was in the gallery. In person, it was balanced perfectly. Trust
>me. I was there and heard it. I know the off-air recording very well,
>too. And ideal playing isn't as important as a great performance that
>sweeps one away, which is what this was. Stokowski adapted himself to
>the orchestras he conducted, Horner, Berv, or not. Read about him.
>
> Don Tait
I have a WFMT tape from a requestathon. it is a totally amazing
performance that does sweep yopu away biut is marred near the end
by
1) A ridiulously sweet trumpet solo
2) The horn section breaking under Stoky's demands. All 4 or 5 of them
break in different ways.
Too bad. The woodwinds are fabulous
It has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with straining to play
a Stoky fortissimo in unison on equipment not suited for it.
The brass sounds much better for Kertesz in the Corsair Ov also from a
requestathon
Abbedd
Eric Nagamine
Having heard the the CSO a few times under Solti, I gather that while
the sound of the orchestra might be considered aggressive, the
commercial recordings the orchestra made with Decca made them sound
unnaturally so. I recall hearing the CD of the "live" Shostakovich 10th
and thought that in the hall the sound while bright wasn't as edgy as
the recording turned out. The recording also didn't seem to capture the
energy I heard in the hall in the 3 nights I attended. Even in earlier
visits to Chicago, I thought that some of the finesse that Herseth,
Clevenger, Friedman, etal. never really came out in the commercial
recordings. The syndicated broadcasts were better in reproducing the
sound of the orchestra as heard live though the low string sound never
matched what i heard in Orchestra Hall on several occasions.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://classwebcast.googlepages.com/
TareeDawg
> Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 3:06�pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
>> The Reiner and Solti sounds were utterly different. I heard both
>> live. With Reiner, there was almost a veil over the sound of the
>> violin sections; it was like dark silk or satin. The brass always
>> blended; they were never overly prominent, nor did they ever "scream."
>> They invariably played their parts with an eye and ear to the role
>> their were playing in the music as a whole and its harmony. And they
>> colored their playing, even their individual notes, to an almost vocal
>> style. Two perfect recorded examples of this are the RCA "Living
>> Stereo" CDs of Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead (for the veiled string
>> sound) and Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey from Wagner's
>> Goetterdaemmerung (for the peerless brass playing, tone, and sensitive
>> phrasing). But with Reiner the dynamic range could be overwhelming;
>> records didn't capture it. The sheer massiveness of the sound -- but
>> always clean, and with so much color -- was so gorgeous.
>>
>> Solti got a completely different sonority, and in fact evoked it
>> evidently by his mere presence. I've written about it here before. I
>
> Having heard the the CSO a few times under Solti, I gather that while
> the sound of the orchestra might be considered aggressive, the
Almost exactly 30 years ago I heard the CSO under Giulini, and they
sounded as smooth as a baby's bum, with beautifully balanced sound.
But then, Giulini wasn't a musical butcher, was he?
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Heck51
> I agree that the Hart book is an excellent one - among the best conductor
> biographies I've read. I haven't read the Morgan.>>
another vote for Hart. excellent book. good discography and repertoire
list also.
Morgan is good too but it reads more like a textbook.
Heck51
wrote: I've long wondered how that concept squared, professionals
dealing with professionals, with the CSO's natural inclinations.>
that's a good question, and it is basic to why some conductors succeed
in some places, and fail in others...
players, and orchestras, do most certainly have natural inclinations -
and new players are brought in to fill vacancies based on their
ability to conform to those performance practices.
any conductor who assumes a new music directorship is going to have to
take into consideration the pre-existing performance style of the
orchestra...some do it better than others....some are completely
frustrated.
Heck51
> P.S. I was told the following story by Scott Thomas, who does
> occasional announcing at WFMT in Chicago and was a student of the
> CSO's former second clarinetist, Jerome Stowell. Scott said that
> Stowell told it to him.
>
> At the time of a Szell performance of Beethoven's Sixth Symphony
> with the CSO, the orchestra's principal clarinetist, Clark Brody, was
> on vacation. So Stowell was playing first. During a rehearsal, Szell
> stopped during the third movement (the peasants et cetera) and said he
> thought the important clarinet solo might sound better with a clarinet
> in another key. (I remember no details and, sorry, clarinetists, I
> don't know the various keys of the instruments.>> -snip-
Szell could certainly be a fussy martinet. there are tons of stories
floating about. one of my teachers played in Cleveland in the early
50s, as the orchestra was making its ascent to front-rank greatness...
Szell would always coach, direct, conduct orchestral cadenzas, or
recitatives as they occured in a work....
the Beethoven 6th provides a good example -
at the end of the 2nd mvt - the bird calls - the flute
starts[nightingale], gradually speeds up into a trill, then the
clarinet and oboe join in with the "cuckoo" calls...
Szell instructed M. Sharp, Flute I, to follow him closely!! most
conductors would give the soloist some leeway, and follow right along,
if there was a major difference of opinion, then they'd get together -
not Szell - he had to micromanage -
using his first finger and thumb, meticulously, he conducts the eighth
and sixteenth notes gradually speeding up - "No, NO, you're rushing!!
again!!" - "No, you're rushing!!" the poor flautist is trying to see
this microscopic, fussy liite beat from afar...
another time - in the scherzo of a Beethoen symphony - #9 - I think -
the orchestra is chugging along, things are rolling along well enough
- Szell looks back at the third horn player [who's counting measures
of rest] -
Szell, stops, agitated - "Third horn - what are you doing back
there??!!"
The horn player, surpised, bewildered - "I'm counting measures of rest
- I have alot of measures, and I still had a few to go....."
Sz: 'What?? measures rest??" [looks thru score, hemming and hawing]
redirects attention to "errant" horn player -
"Well, OK, then, but don't look so STUPID!!"
LOL!!
rkhalona
My biggest disappointment in this regard was Solti's Shostakovich 8th
recording (IIRC, recorded in St. Petersburg). I had heard them
perform the work at Orchestra Hall before the recording was made
(IIRC) and it was a shattering experience (I will never forget some
elderly Russian men and women in tears after the performance). The
Decca recording is a pale reproduction.
RK
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Having heard the the CSO a few times under Solti, I gather that while
> the sound of the orchestra might be considered aggressive, the
> commercial recordings the orchestra made with Decca made them sound
> unnaturally so. �I recall hearing the CD of the "live" Shostakovich 10th
> and thought that in the hall the sound while bright wasn't as edgy as
> the recording turned out. The recording also didn't seem to capture the
> energy I heard in the hall in the 3 nights I attended. Even in earlier
> visits to Chicago, I thought that some of the finesse that Herseth,
> Clevenger, Friedman, etal. never really came out in the commercial
> recordings. The syndicated broadcasts were better in reproducing the
> sound of the orchestra as heard live though the low string sound never
> matched what i heard in Orchestra Hall on several occasions.
This is a good point. I think you are correct about the Decca sound
-- or, at least, I agree with you!
Don Tait
jrs...@aol.com
I'm too lazy to look at the moment, but I know the Bruckner 8 was
recorded in St. Petersburg. Did they record both 8s there?
Anyway, I also heard their Shostakovich 8, in Washington, D.C. It was
shatteringly beautiful playing, but not a big favorite in terms of
interpretations, for some reason. Maybe I was stuck on Mravinsky at
the time. Still, I think the recording came out rather well,
considering how few recordings ever come close to the live experience.
Solti's recordings have their merits, but rarely have the subtlety or
anything close to the full range of sonic delights that one could hear
live.
--Jeff
rkhalona
>
> I'm too lazy to look at the moment, but I know the Bruckner 8 was
> recorded in St. Petersburg. Did they record both 8s there?
>
I think you're right; I was confusing the Shosty 8th with the Bruckner
8th (easy for me to do :-)
My comment on the performance I saw vs. the recording still stands.
RK
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Almost exactly 30 years ago I heard the CSO under Giulini, and they
> sounded as smooth as a baby's bum, with beautifully balanced sound.
>
> But then, Giulini wasn't a musical butcher, was he?
>
> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Giulini evoked a sound from the CSO that was the opposite of
Solti's. It was very striking to hear a concert conducted by one of
them, then go the next week for the other, and hear a very different-
sounding orchestra. For Giulini mellow and, as you wrote, beautifully
balanced. Plus warmly colored.
Donald Peck writes a bit about that in his book (discussed earlier
in this thread) when he writes about Giulini. One has the impression
that, for him, that phenomenon of a good conductor's mere presence
changing the orchestra's sound is a mystery. I have heard several CSO
members, including decades-long veterans, acknowledge it but say they
can't explain why it happens except that they probably react to the
conductor's personality and start to play slightly differently. For
another example, I remember how the CSO sounded different when Eugene
Ormandy conducted during the Solti era. It sounded fuller, warmer, and
more blended. (In fact I remember saying to my companion "they sound
the way they did with Reiner," and he -- who'd heard Reiner/CSO live
-- agreed.)
Regarding "a musical butcher," I assume you mean Solti. I heard a
fair number of CSO concerts conducted by him, and I can assure you
that that is a very unfair term. Not everything was ideal, and some
things were bad. But I'll remember Schoenberg's Moses und Aaron, Act 3
of Gotterdaemmerung, Vaughan Williams' 4th Symphony, Bruckner's 6th, a
gorgeous Beethoven Sixth, and other things for the rest of my life.
Don Tait
grobbe...@gmail.com
The Decca release of the Shostakovich 8th with the CSO/Solti was
recorded live in Orchestra Hall, Chicago in February 1989 (according
to my copy). I like this performance quite a bit but I only have a few
others to compare.
Dontait...@aol.com
The Bruckner 8th was indeed recorded in St. Petersburg, on November
20 and 21, 1990. Contrary to the statement in the CD booklet, it was
not recorded live. These were formal recording sessions. The venue was
the Great Hall of the Leningrad [now St. Petersburg] Philharmonic.
I'd have to find the information about the Shostakovich 8th and
shall do so if anyone is interested.
By the way, I was told about that CSO Russian tour by some CSO
friends including Henry Fogel, then the orchestra's manager. Among
numerous adventures and misfortunes in the decayed Soviet
infrastructure was the food. Including oysters. Henry told me that he
and some CSO members ate oysters in the then-USSR that were spoiled
and made them so severely ill that they couldn't travel for a few
days. Henry even had the CSO's physician, who went on all tours, come
to the next WFMT CSO fund-raiser. He said "oh yeah, that toxin is
really bad!"
Sorry for the digression. But then I did eat a bad oyster once, and
I've never forgotten the subsequent agony.
Back to music and recordings.
Don Tait
O
<880a25c2-4129-4c67...@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding "a musical butcher," I assume you mean Solti. I heard a
> fair number of CSO concerts conducted by him, and I can assure you
> that that is a very unfair term. Not everything was ideal, and some
> things were bad. But I'll remember Schoenberg's Moses und Aaron, Act 3
> of Gotterdaemmerung, Vaughan Williams' 4th Symphony, Bruckner's 6th, a
> gorgeous Beethoven Sixth, and other things for the rest of my life.
I think that music is a medium that isn't absolute. Conductors and
musicians that I think are horrible are admired by others here and vice
versa (even witness the current Lang Lang thread!)
American football promotions like to say "On any given Sunday (i.e.
game day), any team in the National Football League can beat any other
team in the National Football League." I think there is a similar
aspect in music. Even musicians we dislike a lot can rise up and have
a great day or evening of music that even we can enjoy it, despite our
jaded pessimism. That's one of the glories and advantages of music.
-Owen
P.S. Of course, it doesn't prevent us from voicing our opinions as
firmly as we think we can, though! :-)
-O
Todd Schurk
Hmmm....I know I'm not as smart as many here but if I were/had been
touring the Soviet Union and had to perform there I would have stayed
away from any oysters,seafood etc. I do tour & perform and really have
to "think" before I eat.Others paychecks depend on me being healthy
enough to be able to go onstage. Todd S.
Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink)
typed in news:efa0cdd7-b652-4c53-ad1c-61c313f7fe52
@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> By the way, I was told about that CSO Russian tour by some CSO friends
> including Henry Fogel, then the orchestra's manager. Among numerous
> adventures and misfortunes in the decayed Soviet infrastructure was the
> food. Including oysters. Henry told me that he and some CSO members ate
> oysters in the then-USSR that were spoiled and made them so severely ill
> that they couldn't travel for a few days. Henry even had the CSO's
> physician, who went on all tours, come to the next WFMT CSO fund-raiser.
> He said "oh yeah, that toxin is really bad!"
>
> Sorry for the digression. But then I did eat a bad oyster once, and
> I've never forgotten the subsequent agony.
>
> Back to music and recordings.
Sure. Have you seen "Topsy-Turvy"?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Heck51
> My biggest disappointment in this regard was Solti's Shostakovich 8th
> recording (IIRC, recorded in St. Petersburg). I had heard them
> perform the work at Orchestra Hall before the recording was made
> (IIRC) and it was a shattering experience (I will never forget some
> elderly Russian men and women in tears after the performance). The
> Decca recording is a pale reproduction.>>
I like the Solti Shost #8 recording very much, but it does not match
the live performance I heard @ Boston Symphony Hall from the same
period.
"shattering experience" is a great way to express the impact of the
live performance..it was really amazing....the Decca recording is a
"live" take, IIRC...
Heck51
musical butcher," I assume you mean Solti. I heard a
> fair number of CSO concerts conducted by him, and I can assure you
> that that is a very unfair term.>>
definitely true - Solti was a great conductor, and the concerts I
heard with Solti and CSO are amongst the very greatest I'vve ever
heard, starting with the incredible Mahler 5 @ Carnegie Hall in
1970...at that time I had heard just about all of the world's greatest
orchestras, and this performance totally blew me away. I'd never heard
playing of such a stunningly superior caliber....it ws definitely an
aggressive style, but these guys were all over it, really into it,
taking, and making huge chances.....and no, not everything was
loud....the soft playing was wonderful.
I remember a beautifully done Bruckner 7 - the beginning was magical -
the opening tremolo was inaudible - it simply appeared from thin
air.....the dynamics throughout were quite spectacular.
Dontait...@aol.com
<oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:efa0cdd7-b652-4c53-ad1c-61c313f7fe52
> @a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > � By the way, I was told about that CSO Russian tour by some CSO friends
> > including Henry Fogel, then the orchestra's manager. Among numerous
> > adventures and misfortunes in the decayed Soviet infrastructure was the
> > food. Including oysters. Henry told me that he and some CSO members ate
> > oysters in the then-USSR that were spoiled and made them so severely ill
> > that they couldn't travel for a few days. Henry even had the CSO's
> > physician, who went on all tours, come to the next WFMT CSO fund-raiser.
> > He said "oh yeah, that toxin is really bad!"
>
> > � Sorry for the digression. But then I did eat a bad oyster once, and
> > I've never forgotten the subsequent agony.
>
> > � Back to music and recordings.
>
> Sure. �Have you seen "Topsy-Turvy"?
No. Sorry, but is that a movie? My television set died three years
ago. I do not miss it and am happy. So I must confess that I do not
have any knowledge of the recent television video systems for
delivering movies. If I did, I'd ask you for advice (honest). I bought
Betamax equipment. Then VHS. For me, THAT's IT. DVD machines can go
away. There is a limit to what I am going to spend every few years
because some honcho has decided that the equipment I have bought must
be made obsolescent because to do so will earn him some more money.
End of it all. I think about Charles Dickens and Pip and above all
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." Back to
reading.
Don Tait
Steven Bornfeld
> Dontait...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:efa0cdd7-b652-4c53-ad1c-61c313f7fe52
> @a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> By the way, I was told about that CSO Russian tour by some CSO friends
>> including Henry Fogel, then the orchestra's manager. Among numerous
>> adventures and misfortunes in the decayed Soviet infrastructure was the
>> food. Including oysters. Henry told me that he and some CSO members ate
>> oysters in the then-USSR that were spoiled and made them so severely ill
>> that they couldn't travel for a few days. Henry even had the CSO's
>> physician, who went on all tours, come to the next WFMT CSO fund-raiser.
>> He said "oh yeah, that toxin is really bad!"
>>
>> Sorry for the digression. But then I did eat a bad oyster once, and
>> I've never forgotten the subsequent agony.
>>
>> Back to music and recordings.
>
> Sure. Have you seen "Topsy-Turvy"?
>
I've seen it. I remember enjoying it, but somehow don't remember the
oyster part.
Steve
Dontait...@aol.com
Matthew --
I've re-read this. NO offense intended! Some might have been
implied. Sorry.
Don Tait
O
<5ee9f1a5-e822-43bb...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
Topsy Turvy is a movie about Gilbert & Sullivan creating the "Mikado"
with all the fighting and bickering that went on. It's well worth
watching, and the singing is pretty good as well, though it is not the
whole opera.
As far as equipment costs, you can pick up a DVD player today for far
less than $30, unplug your VHS, plug it in, then rent all your movies
from your local blockbuster or Netflix, and have pretty much close to
zero investment in equipment and content.
Or, find a friend with a wide screen TV setup, rent it (or have them
put it on their netflix list), and offer to bring the popcorn.
-Owen
-Owen
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> As far as equipment costs, you can pick up a DVD player today for far
> less than $30, unplug your VHS, plug it in, then rent all your movies
> from your local blockbuster or Netflix, and have pretty much close to
> zero investment in equipment and content.
>
> Or, find a friend with a wide screen TV setup, rent it (or have them
> put it on their netflix list), and offer to bring the popcorn. �
>
> -Owen
Many thanks, Owen! I know nothing about this, but I'll do my best to
act upon your advice. Thanks for caring to send it.
Don Tait
TareeDawg
Interesting thoughts and reminiscences. Thanks.
I think it fairly reflects the idea that a revered and authoritative
conductor will affect the sound of an orchestra quite substantially, and
of course performance (style) as well. Interesting words about Ormandy
too, and it remains a fact, I think, that many of us not close to
Chicagee, were reared on their 'sound' via the very many Reiner and
Martinon recordings that were available. Still are, of course.
The Solti era, was to me, a bit of a closed book, but I'll try to
imagine his RVW 4th, which would seem well suited to him. There are the
Previn recordings DSCH (4th, 5th) that I have that I may revisit, and
they indicate a similarly blended sound to the one I heard from Giulini.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink)
following letters to be typed in news:13uippi...@corp.supernews.com:
> Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink) wrote:
>> Dontait...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to
>> be typed in news:efa0cdd7-b652-4c53-ad1c-61c313f7fe52
>> @a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Back to music and recordings.
>>
>> Sure. Have you seen "Topsy-Turvy"?
>
> I've seen it. I remember enjoying it, but somehow don't remember the
> oyster part.
Oh, it's there. There's a scene in which some of the singers eat some
oysters in a restaurant whilst exchanging gossip and war news. They they
meet with D'Oyly Carte to negotiate their salaries.
TareeDawg
A little story. Maybe of some interest.
A combo recorder I had, CD and VHS, recently went on the blink, as in
trying to view an old VHS tape, I heard an awful sound emanating from
inside the equipment. Kaput. Finito. Stores barely sell VHS recorders
anymore, unless they are el cheapo brands, as companies have decided
that VHS is a dinosaur.
Hence, a few weeks after, I decided to pick up a nice DVD recorder
(Panasonic) for about $250, (many brands are much cheaper, some more
expensive), but the fact is that I can record titles with so much ease
now, onto a 160G drive inside the machine which holds up to 73 hours
playing time at SP quality, or over 300 hours at EP quality. Copying
from the drive to DVD-R takes about 6 minutes in fast mode, and blank
DVD-Rs are as cheap as chips.
In short, I often wonder how I coped with VHS, and all the rewinding and
fast forwarding involved, and the inferior quality. As I am a soccer
zealot (fanatic), I can now reward a good friend at the local chemist
who supports the same UK soccer team as I do, with a recording of the
game every Monday. I am happy, and so is he, and I get $0 for it. TV for
me, is mainly a vehicle for watching some sport. Much of the rest of the
content, I'll admit, is pretty awful, but I'll have to say, that DVD is
the way to go. Nothing fancy, but definitely the way to go.
Tip: If anyone is thinking of buying a DVD recorder, it pays to cough up
that bit extra for one with a hard drive in it. Makes life so much easier.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
O
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld <dentalt...@earthlink.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:13uippi...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink) wrote:
> >> Dontait...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to
> >> be typed in news:efa0cdd7-b652-4c53-ad1c-61c313f7fe52
> >> @a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >>> Back to music and recordings.
> >>
> >> Sure. Have you seen "Topsy-Turvy"?
> >
> > I've seen it. I remember enjoying it, but somehow don't remember the
> > oyster part.
>
> Oh, it's there. There's a scene in which some of the singers eat some
> oysters in a restaurant whilst exchanging gossip and war news. They they
> meet with D'Oyly Carte to negotiate their salaries.
A rather uncomfortable negotiation for them, as I recall.
-Owen
francis
Musician's Odyssey: A View from the Rear by Milan Yancich (1995).
Yancich was second horn in Chicago, 48-51; and fourth in Cleveland
51-52--landing in the Rochester Philharmonic and the Eastman School
faculty for the rest of his career. Szell "non-renewed" him after a
songle season when he'd discovered Yancich auditioned for the
principal's chair in Detroit. In his Cleveland chapter, Yancich
elevates detestation of Szell to an artform:
"During one of our concert tours Angelucci and I were called upon to
double the two horn parts of the Beethoven Seventh. After one of the
first concerts Angelucci said, 'When we get to the double forte
passage pull out the main tuning slide, take your hand out of the
bell, and blast like hell.' For those who are not aware of what
happens to the sound of a horn when the hand is taken out of the bell,
the pitch rises and the sound becomes bright. Pulling out the main
turning slide compensates to some degree for the difference of the
intonation. As we approached the very loud passage I was reluctant to
let go full blast fearing to make a complete fool of myself, but when
I heard my partner go at it with full gusto dynamics I joined in. We
let it fly. It was loud, ugly and dirty, and while we were blowing
our fool heads off Szell gave us a carp-like grin of approval. If he
saw a musician turning colors with the blood rushing to his face he
viewed that as complete loyalty."
OK--one more:
Later, describing one of Szell's post concert full orchestra post-
mortems: "...(he) often went down the line of a section describing
their playing...In this instance it was the trumpet section who were
being abused, using words like strident, coarse, grating, harsh and a
few other choice descriptions. He said all these things as he went
from one player to another. He finally finished his diatribe with the
first trumpet, Louis Davidson, who responded with a clear and loud,
'Fuck you!' Those two words struck me right in the center of my head
because Davidson sat directly behind me on the stage. At the moment
of that curt editorial comment the orchestra fell into a sudden hushed
silence. Szell looked at Davidson for several seconds, said nothing,
and then turned to the first violins and said, 'Begin one bar before
letter C.' I always respected Davidson for his act of defiance. He
remained principal for many years following that verbal exchange."
Yancich tells a dozen stories as juicy and his recounting of the
notice he received in January '52 AND Szell's none-too subtle efforts
to get him to apologize for his "disloyalty" and beg for reinstatement
is remarkable. (I give nothing away in noting that Yancich managed to
resist the balndishments of his suddenly best-pal George.) Even so,
Yancich (whose brother played horn in the Boston Symphony for three
decades) acknowledges Szell's greatness and what the Cleveland had
become by the early 1960s--easier from safety of 200 miles remove up
I-90!
FC
Heck51
In this instance it was the trumpet section who were
> being abused, using words like strident, coarse, grating, harsh and a
> few other choice descriptions. He said all these things as he went
> from one player to another. He finally finished his diatribe with the
> first trumpet, Louis Davidson, who responded with a clear and loud,
> 'Fuck you!' >>
Szell's verbal battles with Marc Lifschey, the great principal oboist
went on for years, with Lifschey unloading the "F-bomb" on
occasion....this went on for many years. Lifschey finally left
permanently in 1965, with a year's hiatus in 1959 [Al Genovese filled
in] I don't recall whether he was actually fired, resigned, or if this
was by mutual agreement.
jrs...@aol.com
> Tip: If anyone is thinking of buying a DVD recorder, it pays to cough up
> that bit extra for one with a hard drive in it. Makes life so much easier.
Very good advice!
--Jeff
TareeDawg
Actually, one of the other advantages of a hard drive, apart from the
storage, and the ease of recording, is that one can cut, edit, add
content, and name, rename title and chapters, before finally deciding,
if one wants, to copy to DVD-R. It is a snip.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
jserr...@gmail.com
Why hasn't there been a biography? I was told that Michael Charry is
writing one. Is that still the case? Don Rosenberg includes some good
anecdotes in the chapters on Szell in his history of the orchestra,
and Myron Bloom paints a portrtait of a human and sympathetic Szell in
the liner notes to the Strauss Horn Concerto Sony Masterworks Heritage
Series CD.
I once heard Alice Chalifoux, the great CO harpist hired by Rodzinski--
who Szell claimed "sacked" far more players than he did at the start
of his tenure, being interviewed on the radio about her recollections
of Szell. She was very circumspect. But one contemptuous remark sticks
with me: "With Szell, every rehearsal was a Carnegie Hall
performance."
jjS
"M.W. Kluge"
The story is that Szell was rehearsing the Prokofiev 5 and questioned
Lifschey's intonation. The oboist snapped, "That's the way I play
it. If you don't like it, get somebody else." Szell responded, "You
may leave the orchestra, Mr. Lifschey." And that was that. No "F-
bomb" required.
Irony department - when Szell called John Mack (then with the National
Symphony) to offer him the job, Mack was sitting at his breakfast
table with... Marc Lifschey.
And, to return to the OP's title for this thread, I checked my copy of
the Szell CSO performance. My version comes from WFMT radiothon
rebroadcasts in the late 1970s. Each piece was aired separately. The
announcer for each work states that the recording came from the
concert of March 21, 1968 - though my printout of the CSO database
says March 22. The rebroadcasts were from the original tapes (with
applause quickly faded to prevent hearing the original announcements)
and March 21 may have been the date on the box. So, who knows which
date is correct. As Don says, these broadcasts were edited from the
available performances; the answer may be that both dates apply.
Mark
Heck51
story is that Szell was rehearsing the Prokofiev 5 and questioned
> Lifschey's intonation. The oboist snapped, "That's the way I play
> it. If you don't like it, get somebody else." Szell responded, "You
> may leave the orchestra, Mr. Lifschey." And that was that. No "F-
> bomb" required.>>
that was one incident, but didn't this love-hate relationship go on
for years?? Lifschey started in Cleveland in 1950, until he finally
left in 1965...
Heck51
> Thanks for all the wonderful Szelliana.>>
another example of Szell's meticulous attention to "detail", in this
case, it worked out amazingly well -
the great bassoon joke in the slow mvt of Haydn Symphony
#93.....lovely tune, diminuendo, soft flutes, violins, then a FF blat
on a low C from the bassoons....
When Goslee played it at rehearsal, Szell was not satisfied at all.he
wanted it really loud and crass. He kept admonishing Goslee to use a
different reed, more edge, more volume, more bite...Goslee couldn't
satisfy him at that rehearsal, but told him he would have it by next
session.
Supposedly, Goslee brought in an unfinished blank to the next
rehearsal, a reed right off his assembly line, totally unfinished, a
really raw product...the result is heard on the recording - an
obnoxiously loud, raucous, quacky and raunchy fart that is hilariously
funny in its stentorian flatulence....
way to go, George[s] :-)
"M.W. Kluge"
Sure it went on for years. But the last incident, the relatively
innocuous one described, resulted in Lifschey being canned on the
spot.
After disposing of two world class oboists (Lifschey and Genovese),
Szell's relationship with John Mack was more cordial.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> And, to return to the OP's title for this thread, I checked my copy of
> the Szell CSO performance. �My version comes from WFMT radiothon
> rebroadcasts in the late 1970s. �Each piece was aired separately. �The
> announcer for each work states that the recording came from the
> concert of March 21, 1968 - though my printout of the CSO database
> says March 22. �The rebroadcasts were from the original tapes (with
> applause quickly faded to prevent hearing the original announcements)
> and March 21 may have been the date on the box. �So, who knows which
> date is correct. �As Don says, these broadcasts were edited from the
> available performances; the answer may be that both dates apply.
>
> Mark
I was one of the announcers for the re-broadcasts. Although it's
been more than thirty years, I seem to recall that we announced the
dates from the cue sheets contained in the boxes with the master
tapes. But as Mark says, it's possible that what was broadcast was an
amalgam of the concert performances and even, perhaps, rehearsals. It
happened fairly frequently. Norm Pellegrini edited the tapes for
broadcast and did so meticulously, working from written notes and from
markings he'd made in scores during the tapings, which he always
supervised in person.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
Here's yet another story about how Szell endeared himself to
musicians. It's from "In the Orchestra" by Jack Brymer (Hutchinson,
1987). Many rmcr readers probably know about Brymer: he was the
principal clarinetist of Beecham's RPO (and recorded the Mozart
concerto with Beecham and his colleagues), then later the principal
with the BBC SO and LSO. He also did a lot of spoken broadcasting on
the BBC. Brymer did a lot of travelling, and a feature of his book is
that he writes about various outstanding orchestras of the world. The
Cleveland is naturally one of them. On page 151 he writes, in part:
"It was...in 1946, when Georg [*sic*] Szell became the permanent
conductor for twenty-four years, that the truly great period in the
life of the Cleveland Orchestra began. To a London player, as well as
one in Sydney [Brymer spent time in Australia], this seems
incomprehensible, because he was without doubt the most universally-
hated conductor in the world. Of his ability there can never have been
any doubt; but as I've mentioned he always said that he intended to
prove that he was a bastard [Buttrose, *Playing for Australia*]. A
fine example of this was when he spent a week in London during 1968
recording Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony with the LSO. The orchestra
were quite thrilled with the sort of results they got (or so I hear,
since I was in the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the time). At the end
they thanked him [Szell] warmly and he graciously deigned to reply,
'Gentlemen,' he said, 'you have been more than generous. I asked you
for only one pitch. Throughout the week you have given me two or
three.' He walked out, never to be seen by those players again in this
life; but he insisted for the remainder of his days that the recording
should not be issued. It was not by his own orchestra I suppose. Some
years later, as a BBC presenter of record programmes, I unearthed it.
It is the finest recording of the work I know."
John Culshaw wrote about that Tchaikovsky 4 recording in his
memoirs. He said something on the order of (this is not a direct
quote) "Szell said that recording would be issued over his dead body.
That's what we did."
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink)
typed in news:995c2ffe-56a9-4df2-bedd-cdc3e7562a80@
59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> John Culshaw wrote about that Tchaikovsky 4 recording in his memoirs.
> He said something on the order of (this is not a direct quote) "Szell
> said that recording would be issued over his dead body. That's what we
> did."
LOL!
Paul Goldstein
Dontait...@aol.com says...
>A fine example of this was when he spent a week in London during 1968
>recording Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony with the LSO. The orchestra
>were quite thrilled with the sort of results they got (or so I hear,
>since I was in the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the time). At the end
>they thanked him [Szell] warmly and he graciously deigned to reply,
>'Gentlemen,' he said, 'you have been more than generous. I asked you
>for only one pitch. Throughout the week you have given me two or
>three.' He walked out, never to be seen by those players again in this
>life; but he insisted for the remainder of his days that the recording
>should not be issued. It was not by his own orchestra I suppose. Some
>years later, as a BBC presenter of record programmes, I unearthed it.
>It is the finest recording of the work I know."
>
> John Culshaw wrote about that Tchaikovsky 4 recording in his
>memoirs. He said something on the order of (this is not a direct
>quote) "Szell said that recording would be issued over his dead body.
>That's what we did."
I have to admit that I have never understood the reputation of that recording.
According to Culshaw, he tricked Szell into unleashing the dogs of war in the
finale by playing back a take with deliberately muffled sound (I'm going by
memory here; I don't have Culshaw's memoir at hand). Critics have made
tremendous claims for it ever since it was released "over Szell's dead body."
But all I hear is a solid performance that does not even begin to approach
Mravinsky or for that matter Bernstein (DGG remake) in intensity.
Dontait...@aol.com
> I have a recording from a concert given on March 22,1968 of an all
> Beethoven concert conducted by George Szell. It was I believe the last
> time Szell guest conducted the CSO. The "Prometheus" Overture is the
> only item from the concert to be "officially" released (in a CSO Guest
> set)...This concert may have contained Szell's best Beethoven 5 & 6
> symphonies preserved. The orchestra really play hard for him and they
> are on fire. It's fun to compare these with the records from Cleveland/
> Amsterdam/Vienna of the 5th. That Herseth trumpet section is having a
> field day. I wonder what the orchestra (CSO) thought of Szell. I know
> he didn't guest there much. Cassidy and Mrs. Reiner thought him the
> coldest. I reading of them (I think it was them) that Szell had to
> cancel due to a fever...he had gotten up to 96 degrees....Todd S.
Yet more about this. Todd, in view of the many subsequent messages
about this, including Mark Kluge's and mine from the last day or so,
can you tell us where the date of March 22 (1968) came from? March 21
was given as the date on the WFMT rebroadcast of the tape, as Mark
wrote yesterday or today. (That is late in this thread.)
May I add a bit about Claudia Cassidy (of the Chicago Tribune) and
Szell? Yes, Claudia (I knew her, thus the first name) disliked Szell
as a conductor strongly. The story as I know it is that Claudia wrote
a letter to Carlotta Reiner containing the sentence "George Szell
suffered a raging fever and his temperature shot up to 89." Carlotta
Reiner's response hasn't been reported; but since she was fiercely
protective of "her Fritz," she probably agreed with Claudia.
Don Tait
francis
> In article <995c2ffe-56a9-4df2-bedd-cdc3e7562...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Even Szell fans--and I am one--wouldn't think of Szell for
Tchaikovsky, other than as a curiosity.
rkhalona
>
> - Show quoted text -
His Tchaikovsky 5th is pretty good.
RK
Todd Schurk
So was his broadcast "Pathetique" (can anyone upload a link to that!?)
his Capricio Italian, and his partnership w/Horowitz in the P/C made
for some high voltage.
Todd Schurk
I got the date from the info provided by the uploader of the files at
this particular music share website...also I believe the official
"Guests in the House" set issued by the CSO that contains the Szell
"Prometeus" overture stated 3/22/68..".I could be mistaken, we are but
fallible mortals-the best of us " (Wilfred Shadbolt, G&S Yeomen of the
Guard)....Todd
Eric Nagamine
Seconded. Remains my favorite 5th till this day.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://classwebcast.googlepages.com/
Eric Nagamine
Szell's Capriccio Italien is also excellent as his accompaniment for
Graffman's Tchaik PC #1.
ron...@usa.net
Mr. Brymer's dates are not correct. Szell recorded the Tchaikovsky 4th
in 1962 with the LSO. It was indeed the last recording made with Szell
and that orchestra for Decca, but he did make more recordings with
them in 1968 for EMI: Mahler Des Knaben Wunderhorn, some Mozart arias
and some Strauss songs.
I can understand Szell's refusal to have the Tchaikovsky released. At
one spot in the second movement the orchestra almost falls apart, and
in the last movement the first trumpet does not play one major
entrance.
Ron Whitaker
Todd Schurk
Glad to hear from you Ron...hope you are enjoying your leisure time
now. Perhaps you could comment on what hoops Columbia/CBS/Sony had to
jump through to get that Szell Mahler 6 broadcast issued from the WCLV
Cleveland tapes...if they managed that-why was it the only instance of
a Szell live performance to be issued by a major? Todd S.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f300167d-edb9-4285-8345-
848c8f...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
> Glad to hear from you Ron...hope you are enjoying your leisure time now.
> Perhaps you could comment on what hoops Columbia/CBS/Sony had to jump
> through to get that Szell Mahler 6 broadcast issued from the WCLV
> Cleveland tapes...if they managed that-why was it the only instance of
> a Szell live performance to be issued by a major? Todd S.
Well, that depends on how you count the Japanese Sony release from the final
concert in Tokyo. The Orchestra itself released the whole thing plus more.
Curtis Croulet
> recording.
For me it's one of the top recordings of the piece.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Todd Schurk
> Todd Schurk <patterb...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:f300167d-edb9-4285-8345-
>
> > Glad to hear from you Ron...hope you are enjoying your leisure time now.
> > Perhaps you could comment on what hoops Columbia/CBS/Sony had to jump
> > through to get that Szell Mahler 6 broadcast issued from the WCLV
> > Cleveland tapes...if they managed that-why was it the only instance of
> > a Szell live performance to be issued by a major? Todd S.
>
> Well, that depends on how you count the Japanese Sony release from the final
> concert in Tokyo. The Orchestra itself released the whole thing plus more.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
True Matthew! I had forgotten the Tokyo concert...which the Cleve.
Orchestra issued in the US...Sony didn't of course-only in Japan as
you state.
francis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mr. Whitaker, I'd also be curious to know why only the Mahler 6th was
issued commercial (aside from the Orchestra's own issues--especially
that unimaginable Sibelius 2nd). There were certainly some singular
performances of works not otherwise in the Szell/Cleveland
repertory...and I have to assume that the brand is still saleable.
Excluding works in the Orchestra's 75th Anniversary,Szell Centennial
and final Tokyo Concert Sets, my nominees: Janacek: Glagolithic Mass;
Mozart: Symphony 38 (Prague) & Two Marches; Frank Martin Cello
Concerto w/Fournier; Hanson: Mosiacs; Rachmaninoff Concerto No 3 w/
Bachauer; Berg Violin Concerto w/Drurian or Majewsky; Verdi & Brahms
Requiems.
"Every time we receive a good review, George Szell receives a great
review!"
- Cristoph von Dohnanyi
Ludwig
Well, they did issue the Sibelius and Berlioz items in France as well,
though that edition seems to have gone out of print:
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00006C2FA
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:abbbf94a-bae6-4b7a-9ae2-
12b782...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
> Mr. Whitaker, I'd also be curious to know why only the Mahler 6th was
> issued commercial (aside from the Orchestra's own issues--especially that
> unimaginable Sibelius 2nd). There were certainly some singular
> performances of works not otherwise in the Szell/Cleveland repertory...and
> I have to assume that the brand is still saleable. Excluding works in the
> Orchestra's 75th Anniversary,Szell Centennial and final Tokyo Concert Sets,
> my nominees: Janacek: Glagolithic Mass; Mozart: Symphony 38 (Prague) & Two
> Marches; Frank Martin Cello Concerto w/Fournier; Hanson: Mosiacs;
> Rachmaninoff Concerto No 3 w/Bachauer; Berg Violin Concerto w/Drurian or
> Majewsky; Verdi & Brahms Requiems.
Perhaps the reason is the oversight of Columbia at the time of Clive Davis,
embezzler and tax evader, a monster who demands sexual gratification from the
artists he signs, whose unaccountable fame in the music business is due to
three things: dumb luck, press manipulation, and a mysterious hold on some
of the talented people -- blackmail, perhaps?
Davis nixed a number of might-have-been-great projects in the Masterworks
division at Columbia, rather in the way Charles O'Connell had done at RCA.
His influence in the classical recording biz is negative in every way.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
jserr...@gmail.com
> I have a recording from a concert given on March 22,1968 of an all
> Beethoven concert conducted by George Szell. It was I believe the last
> time Szell guest conducted the CSO. The "Prometheus" Overture is the
> only item from the concert to be "officially" released (in a CSO Guest
> set)...This concert may have contained Szell's best Beethoven 5 & 6
> symphonies preserved. The orchestra really play hard for him and they
> are on fire. It's fun to compare these with the records from Cleveland/
> Amsterdam/Vienna of the 5th. That Herseth trumpet section is having a
> field day. I wonder what the orchestra (CSO) thought of Szell. I know
> he didn't guest there much. Cassidy and Mrs. Reiner thought him the
> coldest. I reading of them (I think it was them) that Szell had to
> cancel due to a fever...he had gotten up to 96 degrees....Todd S.
Todd,
I agree these are wonderful performances, the Chicago
Symphony sounds amazing.
I am cross-posting a link to a CD insert cover for this broadcast
(see the "Upload link: Szell/CSO 3/22/1968 Beethoven 5 & 6 -
3/22/1968" thread)
for anybody that indulges in such ephemera.
JPEG format - 1.3 mb:
Gerard
> > I have to admit that I have never understood the reputation of that
> > recording.
>
> For me it's one of the top recordings of the piece.
The same here.
"M.W. Kluge"
> Even Szell fans--and I am one--wouldn't think of Szell for
> Tchaikovsky, other than as a curiosity.
I recall a New York Philharmonic broadcast from the 1960s in which
Szell led the Tchaikovsky 5. Jim Fassett interviewed him during
intermission, during which Szell expressed considerable praise for
Tchaikovsky as a composer. That did not stop him from cutting the
finale in his performance, though ;-)
To get back to the date for Szell's CSO Beethoven concert, the CSO
database indicates the date was March 22, 1968. The rebroadcast in
the 1970s gave the date as March 21, presumably from documentation in
the tape box. (these two dates represent the Thursday and Friday
subscription concerts which featured the same program.) When I was
annotating the CSO radiothon CD sets, I ran into little date
discrepancies like this several times. Forty years later it may
simply be impossible to resolve which date is "correct," especially in
the case of an edited broadcast tape.
Mark
Dontait...@aol.com
{snip}
> > � Yet more about this. Todd, in view of the many subsequent messages
> > about this, including Mark Kluge's and mine from the last day or so,
> > can you tell us where the date of March 22 (1968) came from? March 21
> > was given as the date on the WFMT rebroadcast of the tape, as Mark
> > wrote yesterday or today. (That is late in this thread.)
[snip]
> I got the date from the info provided by the uploader of the files at
> this particular music share website...also I believe the official
> "Guests in the House" set issued by the CSO that contains the Szell
> "Prometeus" overture stated 3/22/68..".I could be mistaken, we are but
> fallible mortals-the best of us " (Wilfred Shadbolt, G&S Yeomen of the
> Guard)....Todd
Thanks. I only asked out of curiosity. I'll look at the "Guests in
the House" set. It's not a big deal, in any case.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
Thanks for the correction about the recording date. Frankly, I'm not
surprised. Brymer's book is riddled with dating errors of this sort.
To comment myself about the Szell Tchaikovsky 4th, I have only heard
it once but thought it unremarkable. A previous poster cited Mravinsky
and a Bernstein version as superior at least, to which I would add
Mengelberg and my favorite of all, the 1949 Koussevitzky/BSO (RCA
Victor LM-1008).
Don Tait
Todd Schurk
Szell also makes that cut in the Tchaikovsky 5th finale in the live
performance contained in the GCOTC 2 disc set from a german radio
recording. I believe with one of the Cologne orchestras. There is no
such cut in the Cleveland recording. Todd S.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> I recall a New York Philharmonic broadcast from the 1960s in which
> Szell led the Tchaikovsky 5. �Jim Fassett interviewed him during
> intermission, during which Szell expressed considerable praise for
> Tchaikovsky as a composer. �That did not stop him from cutting the
> finale in his performance, though ;-)
Is the finale cut in the commercial Cleveland recording? I have only
heard it once, and that was many years ago; I don't remember. I must
say that I find Szell's cut in the finale of Bartok's Concerto for
Orchestra unconscionable.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Szell also makes that cut in the Tchaikovsky 5th finale in the live
> performance contained in the GCOTC 2 disc set from a german radio
> recording. I believe with one of the Cologne orchestras. There is no
> such cut in the Cleveland recording. Todd S.
You have just answered the question I just posted. Thanks.
Don Tait
ron...@usa.net
> > > letters to be typed in news:f300167d-edb9-4285-8345-
> > > 848c8ff5f...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > > Glad to hear from you Ron...hope you are enjoying your leisure time now.
> > > > Perhaps you could comment on what hoops Columbia/CBS/Sony had to jump
> > > > through to get that Szell Mahler 6 broadcast issued from the WCLV
> > > > Cleveland tapes...if they managed that-why was it the only instance of
> > > > a Szell live performance to be issued by a major? Todd S.
>
>
> issued commercial (aside from the Orchestra's own issues--especially
> that unimaginable Sibelius 2nd). There were certainly some singular
> performances of works not otherwise in the Szell/Cleveland
> repertory...and I have to assume that the brand is still saleable.
> Excluding works in the Orchestra's 75th Anniversary,Szell Centennial
> and final Tokyo Concert Sets, my nominees: Janacek: Glagolithic Mass;
> Mozart: Symphony 38 (Prague) & Two Marches; Frank Martin Cello
> Concerto w/Fournier; Hanson: Mosiacs; Rachmaninoff Concerto No 3 w/
> Bachauer; Berg Violin Concerto w/Drurian or Majewsky; Verdi & Brahms
> Requiems.
It's hard for me to comment in that I joined the orchestra five years
after Szell's death, so I was not privy to what happened. The only
real problem is money, and I must assume Columbia paid the going rates
to the orchestra members who participated in those perfomances. This
is what happened when EMI issued the live Lalo Cello Concerto with du
Pré and Cleveland with Barenboim conducting.
As for the performances mentioned as potential releases, I don't
believe Szell ever conducted the Janacek Glagolithic Mass in
Cleveland, while the Hanson Mosaics and Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto
No. 3 with Bachauer both date from the late 1950's. The Cleveland
Orchestra Syndication Service only started in 1965 (as a joint venture
between WCLV and The Cleveland Orchestra). While the orchestra
certainly broadcast many, many concerts prior to 1965, the various
radio stations that broadcast them did not systematically retain tape
copies for any length of time, meaning that for the most part, copies
that still exist were taped by home recordists off the air. The
orchestra was able to issue a few of these in the boxes, but most are
just not usable. I have heard a Szell Berlioz Requiem, which at one
time was being considered, but the sound is just too abysmal due to
severe distortion. The Mozart Symphony No. 38 almost made the Szell
box, but the powers-that-be determined that there were a couple of
problems that could not be fixed to everyone's satisfaction. Too bad
-- it is a really nice performance. The Martin and Berg concertos
certainly exist, but market considerations come into play here.
At this point I think most organizations are waiting to see how the
entire download phenomenon plays out. If large archives can be made
available for on-demand streaming at a cost that satisfies all
concerned, the items that many of us would like (such as the Martin
and Berg) could become available without having to worry about market
concerns.
Ron Whitaker
francis
>
> As for the performances mentioned as potential releases, I don't
> believe Szell ever conducted the Janacek Glagolithic Mass in
> Cleveland, while the Hanson Mosaics and Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto
> No. 3 with Bachauer both date from the late 1950's. The Cleveland
> Orchestra Syndication Service only started in 1965 (as a joint venture
> between WCLV and The Cleveland Orchestra). While the orchestra
> certainly broadcast many, many concerts prior to 1965, the various
> radio stations that broadcast them did not systematically retain tape
> copies for any length of time, meaning that for the most part, copies
> that still exist were taped by home recordists off the air. The
> orchestra was able to issue a few of these in the boxes, but most are
> just not usable. I have heard a Szell Berlioz Requiem, which at one
> time was being considered, but the sound is just too abysmal due to
> severe distortion. The Mozart Symphony No. 38 almost made the Szell
> box, but the powers-that-be determined that there were a couple of
> problems that could not be fixed to everyone's satisfaction. Too bad
> -- it is a really nice performance. The Martin and Berg concertos
> certainly exist, but market considerations come into play here.
>
> At this point I think most organizations are waiting to see how the
> entire download phenomenon plays out. If large archives can be made
> available for on-demand streaming at a cost that satisfies all
> concerned, the items that many of us would like (such as the Martin
> and Berg) could become available without having to worry about market
> concerns.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you for this, Ron. I can absolutely confirm that the Janacek
Mass (which was billed as "Slavonic Mass") was played in December 1965
and was broadcast. I heard it and it was magnificent.
FC
Todd Schurk
Strange...according to Cleveland Orchestra concert listings there was
no Janacek Mass played by Szell in Dec. '65...there were Dec. 9 & 11-
All Sibelius, Dec. 16,18,19-Schubert,Casadesus,Mozart. Then on Dec. 23
& 25 Corelli, Mozart & Beethoven...perhaps a different date or
December? Though I have never heard of Szell leading this work. I hope
you're correct though Francis-and a tape exists a nd shows up! Todd S.
francis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Todd-I couldn't find the concert on the UK Szell website. However,
from the New York Times of Sunday, June 12, 1966 there is this listing
for a WQXR Radio broadcast that day:
Cleveland Orchestra
George Szell, music director
Robert Shaw, associate conductor
Robert Conrad, commentator
Daniel Majewske, violin
Martina Arroyo, soprano
Grace Reginald, contralto
Jerald Siene, tenor
David Ford, bass
Martinu: Memorial to Lidice
Dvorak: Violin Concerto
Janacek: Slavonic Mass
FC
Todd Schurk
hmm....I have Szell in Europe during most of June '66 (Vienna, Jone
5th was a concert of Beethoven & Bruckner),and Cologne (Walton,
Mozart, Tchaikovsky), I don't think he would have been back in
Cleveland on June 12...maybe that was just the tape delay date that
this broadcast took place? I'll keep looking. Todd S.