Bruckner 4
wagnerfan
recordings I have of the one (of two) Bruckner symphonies I "get" - I
was wondering what your opinions were of the following:
WAND BERLIN LIVE 1998 RCA
FURTWANGLER STUTTGART 1951 ARCHIPEL
FURTWANGLER BERLIN 1941
FURTWANGLER VIENNA 1951 MUSIC/ARTS
LEINSDORF BOSTON 1965 RCA
ASAHINA OSAKA 1994 CANYON
ASAHINA OSAKA LIVE 1976
Wagner fan
Lionel Tacchini
> The current Bruckner discussion spurred me on to check the current
> recordings I have of the one (of two) Bruckner symphonies I "get" - I
> was wondering what your opinions were of the following:
>
> WAND BERLIN LIVE 1998 RCA
His best 4th - and a truely great performance.
> FURTWANGLER STUTTGART 1951 ARCHIPEL
Even better. One of the most involving I have heard but
the true winners have been Kabasta and Horenstein, in a more
exultant approach.
> FURTWANGLER BERLIN 1941
This has poor sound and holes at side breaks.
I haven't heard the others.
In modern sound, I was very positively impressed with a recent
performance by Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra (2008)
as well as with Harnoncourt.
Lionel Tacchini
3Bs
Your notes on the two Furtwangler '51 are a bit confusing. Both are
with the VPO. One is in Stuttgart, the other in Munich. M&A has
released both. The online Furt Discography shows Archipel as having
released the Munich performance. Perhaps there is one of the Stuttgart
performance as well, but it isn't listed. The M&A release of the
Munich performance has been improved by a release on Orfeo.
Between the two, I generally go to the DG release of the Stuttgart
performance. It's just a bit more exciting and driven. Until the Orfeo
came out was clearly the best sound for a Furtwangler Bruckner 4.
The Asahina 93.07.23 performance from his Canyon cycle is one of the
better efforts in that set (assuming that is what you mean). There's
nothing very unique about the approach, though. It is fairly central
and sensible, if a bit driven during the louder parts and more relaxed
when quiet (just a hint of Furtwangler! these are the qualities that
make his Schubert 9 so fun, as well. Just sampling the Jean-Jean
recording form 74, the orchestra is not as together and the sound is a
bit dead by comparison to the later one.
There is one thing the later Bruckner 4 has that probably no other
recording out there does- the music stops at 20:20, and then you get
53 seconds at the end of track one of the audience shifting around. My
CD of that was a manufacturer's sample; maybe they cut that out later.
But let me tell you, it is the most tense and exciting shifting-around-
in-the-seats I have ever heard. ;-)
wagnerfan
Sorry about that - the Furtwangler 51 is Music/Arts 796 Vienna Phil
at Munich 20 october 1951. Wagner fan
wagnerfan
Interesting that when I loaded the Archipel 1951 Furtwangler Stuttgart
to Itunes- the Cd was identified as the DG recording(!) Wagner Fan
Phlmaestro
I've also got the Stuttgart performance on a French DG import coupled
with the wartime eighth and would probably recommend that above either
Music and Arts release.
But as much as I revere Furtwangler in Beethoven, Brahms and Schubert,
I don't really like his approach to Bruckner. In the first place,
while I don't mind mono live recordings for a lot of repertoire, I
don't think that kind of sound does full justice to Bruckner's music.
The only one of his Bruckner performances I still turn to more than
once in a blue moon is the ninth.
For the fourth, my top pick is Jochum/BPO on DG, but Karajan on EMI
and Abbado on DG are also extremely good. I also like that later
Abbado performance that was mentioned, but have a slight preference
for the VPO recording.
M forever
> The current Bruckner discussion spurred me on to check the current
> recordings I have of the one (of two) Bruckner symphonies I "get"
Which is the other one?
wagnerfan
>
> - Show quoted text -
The 7th. Wagner fan
M forever
Did you "try" the other ones? It seems you did, but according to
yourself, you didn't "get" them (yet, hopefully). This is surprising
since most people who find access to Bruckner's music have no problem
finding access to most, if not all his symphonies, with the exception
of the first two maybe which are musically already very good but not
as coherent and compelling as all the later ones. But I have never
heard of anyone who liked the 4th and 7th (arguably the "easiest" ones
to gain access to, and therefore probably the most "popular" ones) but
who didn't like the 5th, 8th and 9th, and most like the 6th, too. Some
people say that Bruckner wrote the same symphony many times over but
while I don't agree with that - all of his symphonies have a very
distinct character of their own - the musical language is fairly
consistent.
wagnerfan
>
> - Show quoted text -
I sure will try the others - I keep collecting sets in the hope that
one day.................... Wagner fan
M forever
Probably not - Bruckner's vast orchestral landscapes really require
very good sound. But the sound is actually a different parameter from
the interpretation and performance style, so I don't quite understand
why you have less "problems" with Furtwängler's Beethoven or Brahms -
he conducted them in a "big" style with "big" orchestras, too - than
with his Bruckner.
I myself do prefer to turn to good performances in good, modern sound
(whatever exactly that may be), but I find Furtwängler's Bruckner
(especially the 1951 4th) musically and stylistically highly
interesting.
> The only one of his Bruckner performances I still turn to more than
> once in a blue moon is the ninth.
>
> For the fourth, my top pick is Jochum/BPO on DG, but Karajan on EMI
> and Abbado on DG are also extremely good. I also like that later
> Abbado performance that was mentioned, but have a slight preference
> for the VPO recording.
Very good choices! I myself prefer Jochum's EMI 4th to his DG one, but
that is mostly because of the orchestra - even though I am from
Berlin, I like the sound and playing style of the SD a little better
(I guess the grass is always greener elsewhere).
Karajan's EMI recording is a great interpretation and a good example
for his orchestral style at its best (and most monumental), and I
think it is better recorded than the DG one, even though it is a
little on the hazy and reverberant side, too. But it still is a better
representation of the sound of the BP in his era.
I don't know Abbado's Lucerne 4th, but the Viennese one is among my
favorites, too. It is a very lyrical performance but there is no want
of sonic orchestral power either, and he builds the musical paragraphs
very well.
Another favorite of mine is Sinopoli's Dresden recording on DG, also a
very lyrical and musically flexible, very idiomatic performance with
very stylish orchestral playing. Sinopoli was often criticized for his
analytical, at time idiosyncratic interpretations, but this is very
naturally flowing and beautifully shaped music making.
Phlmaestro
> On Feb 25, 9:01 pm, Phlmaestro <phlmaestr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> > But as much as I revere Furtwangler in Beethoven, Brahms and Schubert,
> > I don't really like his approach to Bruckner. In the first place,
> > while I don't mind mono live recordings for a lot of repertoire, I
> > don't think that kind of sound does full justice to Bruckner's music.
>
> Probably not - Bruckner's vast orchestral landscapes really require
> very good sound. But the sound is actually a different parameter from
> the interpretation and performance style, so I don't quite understand
> why you have less "problems" with Furtwängler's Beethoven or Brahms -
> he conducted them in a "big" style with "big" orchestras, too - than
> with his Bruckner.
> I myself do prefer to turn to good performances in good, modern sound
> (whatever exactly that may be), but I find Furtwängler's Bruckner
> (especially the 1951 4th) musically and stylistically highly
> interesting.
>
You're right. Sound and performance practice are two separate things.
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was confusing them.
Different music requires different approaches. For the most part, I
like a slightly more relaxed approach to Bruckner than Furtwangler's
(in fact, I could say that about almost all of the major Bruckner
conductors from back in those days ... I happen to like the
developments in Bruckner performance practices over the past several
decades ... almost nobody took over 80 minutes to conduct Bruckner's
8th in those days for instance ... and most of my favorite
performances of the 5th are around the 80 minute mark; not that I look
for a given time, but I just notice that most of my favorite
performances of those works fall in the same ballpark in terms of
length). And although I am more open to a super-aggressive 4th than I
am to most of the other Bruckner symphonies, Furtwangler just doesn't
do it for me in that symphony (I'd have to go back and listen to the
recordings to be more specific ... it's been a while, but I gave them
ample opportunity to grow on me back when I purchased them; for a
really great and aggressive 4th, a live performance that is a favorite
of mine and which I'm guessing you've heard is the one by Harnoncourt
and the VPO.
> > The only one of his Bruckner performances I still turn to more than
> > once in a blue moon is the ninth.
>
> > For the fourth, my top pick is Jochum/BPO on DG, but Karajan on EMI
> > and Abbado on DG are also extremely good. I also like that later
> > Abbado performance that was mentioned, but have a slight preference
> > for the VPO recording.
>
> Very good choices! I myself prefer Jochum's EMI 4th to his DG one, but
> that is mostly because of the orchestra - even though I am from
> Berlin, I like the sound and playing style of the SD a little better
> (I guess the grass is always greener elsewhere).
> Karajan's EMI recording is a great interpretation and a good example
> for his orchestral style at its best (and most monumental), and I
> think it is better recorded than the DG one, even though it is a
> little on the hazy and reverberant side, too. But it still is a better
> representation of the sound of the BP in his era.
> I don't know Abbado's Lucerne 4th, but the Viennese one is among my
> favorites, too. It is a very lyrical performance but there is no want
> of sonic orchestral power either, and he builds the musical paragraphs
> very well.
> Another favorite of mine is Sinopoli's Dresden recording on DG, also a
> very lyrical and musically flexible, very idiomatic performance with
> very stylish orchestral playing. Sinopoli was often criticized for his
> analytical, at time idiosyncratic interpretations, but this is very
> naturally flowing and beautifully shaped music making.
>
I'll have to keep an eye out for the Sinopoli. I think you and Bob
Harper (ah, the irony) were the two people on here who turned me on to
the Abbado/VPO 4th a while back. I have and like the Sinopoli 5th.
M forever
I have that, from Operashare (Or Symphonyshare? Or both?). Great
performance, lots of transparency and alive inner detail. There is
also a live, commercially released recording with the
Concertgebouworkest (Teldec/Warner). Actually the first Bruckner
performance by Harnoncourt that was released. I hope he will still do
the 6th at least, and maybe the first two as well.
I don't really categorize Bruckner performances as "aggressive" or
"non-aggressive" - although I myself referred to Abbado's recording as
"very lyrical"! By that, I didn't mean that it lacks power and impact
though - which it doesn't at all. The 1951 Furtwängler does indeed
sound pretty "aggressive" at times, especially in climaxes - I wonder
how much of that comes from the narrow, compressed sound... Beyond
that it is definitely a very intense and at times very driven
performance. But it has its moments of calm and lyrical beauty as
well. Independent of the actual interpretation though what i find
great about it is the orchestral playing culture, the flowing and
flexible playing, the eloquent phrasing and such idiomatic (or
idiosyncratic?) moments as at I/4:57, when the basses break into the
silence, tearing up the air form below, not at all together but with a
ton of impact - that's exactly the way it should be in the traditional
orchestral school! :-)
It shouldn't be a problem to find the 4th on amazon or similar. The
7th is phenomenal, too, probably the most beautiful recording I know
as far as the sheer sheen and beauty fo the orchestral plying is
concerned, but musically great, too. One rather big difference between
these and the 5th though is that the 5th was recorded live at the
Semperoper which has rather dry acoustics, so it is very up close and
very defined, while the 4th and 7th were recorded in the Lukaskirche
in Dresden in a much bigger, reverberant space which is however well
filled by the rich sound of the orchestra/
Phlmaestro
>
> I have that, from Operashare (Or Symphonyshare? Or both?). Great
> performance, lots of transparency and alive inner detail. There is
> also a live, commercially released recording with the
> Concertgebouworkest (Teldec/Warner). Actually the first Bruckner
> performance by Harnoncourt that was released. I hope he will still do
> the 6th at least, and maybe the first two as well.
>
I very recently picked up that Concertgebouworkest recording. It's
good, but doesn't pack quite the power that the VPO performance does.
Phlmaestro
I should add that as I alluded to on the other Bruckner thread a few
days ago, I saw Harnoncourt and the VPO perform the Bruckner 4th here
in Philadelphia, probably around the same period as that performance
that was made available for download. It was definitely a memorable
performance, marred only by a terribly timed cell phone that went off
immediately after the big climax that finishes off the scherzo.
Harnoncourt just went limp in frustration.
M forever
> On Feb 28, 12:05 am, Phlmaestro <phlmaestr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 27, 9:46 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have that, from Operashare (Or Symphonyshare? Or both?). Great
> > > performance, lots of transparency and alive inner detail. There is
> > > also a live, commercially released recording with the
> > > Concertgebouworkest (Teldec/Warner). Actually the first Bruckner
> > > performance by Harnoncourt that was released. I hope he will still do
> > > the 6th at least, and maybe the first two as well.
>
> > I very recently picked up that Concertgebouworkest recording. It's
> > good, but doesn't pack quite the power that the VPO performance does.
I remember the recording from Amsterdam was much more distant and
reverberant than that live recording which is fairly up-close and also
dynamically more compacted (no wonder, being a live radio recording).
I haven't heard the former in a long time though.
Another live radio recording I picked up a little while ago (from
Operashare, IIRC) which I like a lot is a performance with Masur and
the Orchestre National de France. It is a delight to hear that
orchestra's light and luminous (but not lightweight) sonorities in
that kind of music - there are very few Bruckner recordings with
French orchestras. The performance is very musically detailed, very
lyrical and very carefully shaped by Masur. There are some really
great moments when Masur illuminates textures and harmonic shifts a
lot of conductors just skate over. BTW, Masur's complete cycle with
the Gewandhausorchester is also very good, especially if you like not
so "aggressive" Bruckner, meaning that the music is not turned into a
concert for brass band blaring away with some woodwinds and strings
accompanying them. Rather, the sound is built up from rich and warm
sonorities. The performances are very stylish and musically detailed.
> I should add that as I alluded to on the other Bruckner thread a few
> days ago, I saw Harnoncourt and the VPO perform the Bruckner 4th here
> in Philadelphia, probably around the same period as that performance
> that was made available for download. It was definitely a memorable
> performance, marred only by a terribly timed cell phone that went off
> immediately after the big climax that finishes off the scherzo.
> Harnoncourt just went limp in frustration.
LOL! Or maybe not - that can be very annoying. I was in a concert in
LA once where some idiots clapped during the general pauses of
Lemminkäinen in Tuonela - twice! - even though Salonen addressed the
audience when it happened the first time and asked them not to clap
until he gave the sign to!! - but they clapped the next time!!!
Still, I would have liked to hear that concert with Harnoncourt and
the - WP - the name of the orchestra is Wiener Philharmoniker, BTW,
not Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. They speak German in Austria (or a
variation of it)!
gggg gggg
"Review: Poschner's Bruckner 4th Failure"
