Mozart piano concertos, good (piano/orchestra) balance?
Lawrence H. Robins
that have a good balance between piano and orchestra volume,
and are also top choices on musical grounds. I currently have
18-23 with Bilson(fortepiano)/Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists.
I enjoyed these for a while, but now it seems that the orchestra
too often drowns out the fortepiano; if the volume is set to a
pleasing level for the softer solo passages, then the
orchestral crescendos reach "threshold of pain".
Trying to think of words to describe a first-rate Mozart
concerto performance; perhaps, "jewel-like beauty and elegance
combined with a feeling for sweep and drama"? I don't care
whether "historic" or modern instruments are used.
Opinions on any from the following list (I know it's long!),
mostly budget releases, are appreciated. Some are large
sets, some only 1 or 2.
Diana Ambache/Ambache Chamber Orchestra (Virgin)
Geza Anda/Salzburg Camerata (DG)
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (Philips)
Barenboim/ECO (EMI)
Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (Philips)
Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland Orch. (Sony)
Curzon/Kertesz/LSO (Decca)
Annie Fischer/Boult or Sawallisch/Philharmonia (Seraphim)
Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland Orch.(#25, w. Beethoven #4) (Sony)
Jando/various cond./Concentus Hungaricus (Naxos)
Richter/Barshai/Moscow Symphony (Eclipse)*
Rubinstein/Wallenstein or Krips/RCA Symphony (RCA)
Andras Schiff/Sandor Vegh/Salzburg Mozarteum (Decca)
*not yet released; worth getting when it is?
- Larry Robins
Kazunari Shiraiso
Alex Leach
concerto recordingd ever made.
Alex
Lawrence H. Robins wrote in message <36E2E30E...@concentric.net>...
Andy Evans
That's the one - no need to look much further. I'd add Richter DGG in 20.
Andy
alain
> I'm looking for recordings of the later Mozart piano concertos
> that have a good balance between piano and orchestra volume,
> and are also top choices on musical grounds.
Of the ones you listed, Casadessus/Szell is really great.
I can also recommend Ivan Moravec with Neville Marrinner conducting the
usual bunch of academicians. The label is Hannsler and I bought mine
from Berkshire.
Alain
Vincent Ventrone
>
> I'm looking for recordings of the later Mozart piano concertos
> that have a good balance between piano and orchestra volume,
> concerto performance; perhaps, "jewel-like beauty and elegance
> combined with a feeling for sweep and drama"? I don't care
> whether "historic" or modern instruments are used.
>
I have a couple of these & think they are nice performances with good
balance. However, these are definitely "big band" perfs. & may not meet
your "jewel-like" criterion
> Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (Philips)
I find Brendel very studied & hard-toned, while IMHO Marriner is a bland
Mozart conductor...
> Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland Orch. (Sony)
Excellent performances -- I'd say good piano/orch. balances & certainly
very crisp playing from the orch. The only caveat is that the sound is
not all it could be (these are fairly old recordings.)
> Curzon/Kertesz/LSO (Decca)
Excellent performances -- among the best IMHO. I think Curzon was one
of the truly great Mozart pianists & these perfs. most definitely meet
all of your criteria. Look for The Classic Sound reissue instead of the
Weekend Classics one for better sound.
> Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland Orch.(#25, w. Beethoven #4) (Sony)
Powerful & precise but also lyrical. Not sure about the sound though --
this looks to me like the old "newspaper wrapper" reissues from about 10
years ago...
> Rubinstein/Wallenstein or Krips/RCA Symphony (RCA)
I'd avoid this -- the sound is coarse & balances are poor.
Lee Chen
"Lawrence H. Robins" wrote:
> I'm looking for recordings of the later Mozart piano concertos
> that have a good balance between piano and orchestra volume,
> and are also top choices on musical grounds. I currently have
> 18-23 with Bilson(fortepiano)/Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists.
> I enjoyed these for a while, but now it seems that the orchestra
> too often drowns out the fortepiano; if the volume is set to a
> pleasing level for the softer solo passages, then the
> orchestral crescendos reach "threshold of pain".
>
> Trying to think of words to describe a first-rate Mozart
> concerto performance; perhaps, "jewel-like beauty and elegance
> combined with a feeling for sweep and drama"? I don't care
> whether "historic" or modern instruments are used.
>
> Opinions on any from the following list (I know it's long!),
> mostly budget releases, are appreciated. Some are large
> sets, some only 1 or 2.
> Geza Anda/Salzburg Camerata (DG)
I've only heard a few concertos from this set, but I don't think it has
"jewel-like beauty and elegance" and certainly NO drama.
Very understated performances (pianist & conductor) which come off to me
as boring. Compared to Gardiner's accompaniements these sound slow,
unexciting, etc.
> Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (Philips)
I only have 20/21. Of all the CDs I have, I think this is the most
closely recorded piano. Sounds as if you're hovering right on top of
the piano. So if that's your #1 priority, I'd strongly suggest these.
Stylistically, Brendal is more drama than beauty/elegance. Sparse use
of legato, much staccato. I found Marriner to be awful in 20 (slack,
spacious conducting) and average in 21 (middle of the road between
sweep/drama and beauty/elegance). I'd imagine Marriner would be
acceptable overall (including the other concertos). Some of the
concertos are avaliable via Berkshire.
> Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland Orch. (Sony)
Maybe the best combination of elegance and drama of the performances
you've listed that I've heard. Piano/orchestral balance is normal for
a modern instrument performance, which is to say the piano is more
prominent than Bilson's. But, in a way I think Casadesus is too
understated (and Szell too,to a lesser degree). The 3 disc set of
21,22,23,24,26,27 is avaliable via Berkshire.
> Curzon/Kertesz/LSO (Decca)
Only heard 20. My opinion's not much help here. I ruled out this
performance based on Kertesz's slow, slack conducting and overall
tempi. Can't remember anything about the piano balance.
> Annie Fischer/Boult or Sawallisch/Philharmonia (Seraphim)
If you want sweep and drama, this performance definitely has it. If
the sound were better, I think I'd recommend this over
Casadesus/Szell. I think I recall the piano being a bit drowned out by
the orchestral, but it have been just the sound quality. Perhaps
others can enlighten.
There are also many more choices out there that fit your description.
I'm sure other will chip in, but I'll recommend Goode/Orpheus 18/20,
Staier's 9/17, and Kovacevich/Davis 21/25.
I'd strongly suggest Kovacevich/Davis. It's avaliable via Berkshire
and Kovacevich conveys the widest range of moods I've heard yet.
Elegance and drama. Davis is pretty good too. Piano/orchestra
balance is fine.
Lee
John Grabowski
don't, I strongly recommend Pires/Abbado on DG, coupled with one that
*is* a late concerto, No. 21. Both are very fine, but No. 17 is in a
class by itself, and really opened the work up to me. Recording is
first rate. (Amazing for DG.)
John
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect
sweetness the independence of solitude.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
****** ELIMINATE MIDDLEMEN WHO ADD NO VALUE TO CLASSICAL MUSIC ******
Middlemen add no value to the product and aren't "helping" the industry,
despite what they may claim. How is a person in the middle taking a
cut "helping" anything?
There are plenty of direct retailers and manufacturers to buy CDs from.
Here is a partial list, that makes shopping through any middleman both
unnecessary and something that only a blockhead would do:
www.amazon.com www.borders.com
www.barnesandnoble.com www.towerrecords.com
www.musicandarts.com www.marstonrecords.com
www.bmgmusicservice.com/classical www.cdnow.com
www.cdconnection.com mb1.musicblvd.com
www.absound.ca www.mdcmusic.co.uk
www.mdt.co.uk www.cdchoice.com
www.berkshirerecoutlet.com ...and many others.
Some middlemen may say their sites are also "informtive." Well, how
well
are they going to "inform" you about recordings they're not selling?
If you're interested in learning more, here are a few suggested sites:
www.camosun.bc.ca www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
music.sjsu.edu/Beethoven/home_page.htm
www.webcom.com/cyteen/CONDUCT.html
www.thrsw.com
Please help keep spam off r.m.c.r. There's enough crass commercialism
in this world.
Audiophilia
>that have a good balance between piano and orchestra volume,
>and are also top choices on musical grounds.
<snip>
>- Larry Robins
Give Richard Goode a go. Although, only two releases so far (Nonesuch).
Superb playing accompanied by the brilliant Orpheus Chamber Orchestra. I
find K. 503 especially beautiful. Recorded sound is excellent.
Kind regards,
Anthony Kershaw, Publisher/Editor
Audiophilia - The Online Journal for the Serious Audiophile
http://www.audiophilia.com
An electronic publication of Audiophilia, Inc.
Eric Schissel
and late? Or am I getting something wrong here? For myself I find
them both stunning, and on utterly subjective reasons have usually
preferred, as a piece, 17, though I'm getting to like 21 more. (Sorry
I can't help with recordings, though DG once had a wonderful 17/24
coupling on tape with Anda, IIRC???)
-Eric Schissel
(Hrm. 17-453; 18-456; 19-459; 20-466; 21-467. Yep. With intervening works
including several of the Haydn quartets (458, 464, 465 -what a triple!),
a violin sonata (454), and assorted other works. It was a very productive
time in Mozart's life, it seems...)
>John
>--
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Ralph Waldo Emerson
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--
schi...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
G. G. Brown
> Superb playing accompanied by the brilliant Orpheus Chamber Orchestra.
> find K. 503 especially beautiful. Recorded sound is excellent.
> Kind regards,
> Anthony Kershaw, Publisher/Editor
> Audiophilia - The Online Journal for the Serious Audiophile
> http://www.audiophilia.com
Goode/Orpheus actually have THREE Mozart cds out on Nonesuch: don't
forget the coupling of 17 & 23 from the early 1980s. cheers,gb
Lee Chen
John Grabowski wrote:
> Don't know if you'd consider No. 17 a "late" concerto, but even if you
> don't, I strongly recommend Pires/Abbado on DG, coupled with one that
> *is* a late concerto, No. 21. Both are very fine, but No. 17 is in a
> class by itself, and really opened the work up to me. Recording is
> first rate. (Amazing for DG.)
>
Yes, #17 is definitely as "good" as any of Mozart's concertos. But I assumed
the original poster already has a recording of 17 that satisfies him (or for
that matter 24-27). If so, which recording is it?
If not, then you may want to consider Staier on Teldec. Although it's HIP,
the fortepiano is much more prominent than Bilson's (or Levin's). Staier is
execellant, both dramatic and elegant. The orchestral contribution is the
most dramatic/extroverted I've heard yet. I'm not sure if this is for
everyone, but it is one of a kind.
Finally, there's my favorite 17, Edwin Fischer. The sheer tempi at which he
flies through 17 is incredible. But it's not very good mono sound, so.....
By the way, I haven't heard Pires' 17, but from what I've been told it's
definitely worth a shot. If I could only find it used....
Lee
Joao Baptista
Kazunari Shiraiso wrote in message <7buqko$kh0$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
|Brendel. But, you've missed Uchida set - that's a real pity.
It will be a real pity if he chooses them !
***********************************
Joao Pedro Baptista
Law Student
Lisbon - Portugal
JBat...@mail.EUnet.pt
***********************************
|
|Kazu
|kazu...@shiraiso.freeserve.co.uk
|
|
Andrej Kluge
> Finally, there's my favorite 17, Edwin Fischer. The sheer tempi at
> which he flies through 17 is incredible.
Comparable to Kocsis on his new Philips release?
Ciao
A.
Simon Roberts
: Opinions on any from the following list (I know it's long!),
: mostly budget releases, are appreciated. Some are large
: sets, some only 1 or 2.
: Diana Ambache/Ambache Chamber Orchestra (Virgin)
Not worth even their extremely low price; staggeringly dull, made worse by
the slow tempi.
: Geza Anda/Salzburg Camerata (DG)
Plain, rather boring performances by Anda, scrappy playing by the
orchestra.
: Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (Philips)
Decca/London, not Philips. Well played, I suppose, and well recorded, but
they're all pretty plain performances; the orchestral contribution is
bland and homogenized.
: Barenboim/ECO (EMI)
A mixed bag. Some are excruciatingly awful, like the sleep-walk
throughout the first two movements of 21 and most of 27; others are
lively and characterful. At least he's never bland. Good orchestral
contribution, decent sound.
: Brendel/Marriner/ASMF (Philips)
I rather like these, unlike most people around here. Brendel is fond of
very crisp, almost staccato playing much of the time (the lowest note in
the left hand in the opening of 23/ii will probably strike you as
ludicrous), but I prefer that to the usual genteel legato. Marriner's
accompaniments are clean and crisp, far superior to most. Good sound,
though the piano's a bit close.
: Casadesus/Szell/Cleveland Orch. (Sony)
The more I listen to these the less I like them. Szell's contribution is
impressive (I particularly enjoy the wonderfully brassy horn playing), but
throughout, with the possible exception of 22, I find Casadesus too
genteel, revealing a dynamic range from piano to mezzoforte, as though
he's afraid of waking someone up.
: Curzon/Kertesz/LSO (Decca)
Kertesz is better than many, the sound is above average, and Curzon's
playing in the slow movements is quite lovely (what I think of as the
climax of 23/ii is beautifully shaped), but otherwise his playing is
understated.
: Annie Fischer/Boult or Sawallisch/Philharmonia (Seraphim)
Good, rather plain performances; I prefer her remakes on Hungaroton in
20/21.
: Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland Orch.(#25, w. Beethoven #4) (Sony)
Another good, plain performance, faster than the current norm, rather
streamlined in effect. I find the absence of ornaments in ii a handicap,
and the orchestral balances leave something to be desired (mainly the
fault of the rather elderly recording).
: Jando/various cond./Concentus Hungaricus (Naxos)
I've only heard a few of these, but they seemed OK; well-played if rather
generic.
: Richter/Barshai/Moscow Symphony (Eclipse)*
If this is the coupling of 15/27 that i have on Leningrad Masters, I would
encourage you to get this one, perhaps the only recording of Mozart
concertos by Richter that I've heard and liked (I can't stand his sleep
walk through 20 on DG and still can't figure out what to make of his 25 on
Teldec, which has no cadenza at all in i!). The sound's not first rate,
but the performances certainly are.
: Rubinstein/Wallenstein or Krips/RCA Symphony (RCA)
No, thanks.
: Andras Schiff/Sandor Vegh/Salzburg Mozarteum (Decca)
Very characterful orchestral contributions from Vegh for the most part,
but the tempos are on the whole too slow for my taste, and Schiff is yet
another shrinking violet. What did Mozart do to deserve this? Good
sound, expecially from the orchestra.
The above is generally negative. Should you care, I would note that there
are Mozart concerto recordings about which I'm very enthusiastic; I gave a
list in a previous thread on this subject.
Simon
Grant Wood
[snip]
> : Annie Fischer/Boult or Sawallisch/Philharmonia (Seraphim)
>
> Good, rather plain performances; I prefer her remakes on Hungaroton in
> 20/21.
I love that recording of 20/21. About my favorite recording for both
concertos. The Cadenzas used (Hummel in 20 and Busoni in 21) add to the
character of the performances as well. My only complaint is that the
strings are a bit harsh sounding, but I quickly get over it. Simon, are
there any other Fischer recordings of the concertos on Hungaroton that
you would recommend?
Grant
Simon Roberts
: I love that recording of 20/21. About my favorite recording for both
: concertos. The Cadenzas used (Hummel in 20 and Busoni in 21) add to the
: character of the performances as well. My only complaint is that the
: strings are a bit harsh sounding, but I quickly get over it. Simon, are
: there any other Fischer recordings of the concertos on Hungaroton that
: you would recommend?
I don't think there are any, are there? The only other concerto by her I
have on Hungaroton is Beethoven 3. I wish there were more....
Simon
Lawrence H. Robins
>no. 17 is k453, no. 21 is k467, no? can that few works divide early
>and late? Or am I getting something wrong here?
No, you're not getting anything wrong. According to the program
booklet from Bilson/Gardiner #20/21, the bulk of Mozart's piano
concertos, #11-25, were written in a short period from late 1782
to 1786, i.e. when Mozart was 26 to 30 years old. So a more
chronologically accurate classification would be:
"early" #1-9, triple concerto K.242, double concerto K.365
"middle" #11-25, concert rondos K.382, K.386
"late" only #26 and #27
When I wrote "later piano concertos" in my original note, I was
just trying to narrow the field of choices, without thinking of
the chronology. If #20-27 are sometimes called the late concertos,
it must be due to our attraction for round numbers, and also the
fact that #20 itself, with its almost "demonic" intensity to the
ears of some listeners, is a notable break with the past.
The program notes also suggest that, because Mozart wrote the
concertos for his own performances, the chronology was influenced
by "market demand" for the music. 1782-1786 was a prosperous time
in Vienna when "the number of private concerts [in the homes of
the nobility] reached an unprecedented level, and, during Lent,
Mozart performed at one noble house or another on almost every
evening not already taken up with public performances. Most of
these occasions were orchestral concerts ... and Mozart's piano
concertos became their mainstays and the principal means by which
he appeared before his admiring patrons." But then, after 1786,
external political events (war with Turkey, rebellion in the
Netherlands, revolution in France) induced a severe recession in
Austria, so that "many noblemen let go their private bands, and
opportunities for performances were drastically curtained"; and,
it is implied, the decline of the concert scene caused Mozart's
interest to turn to other musical forms for his last 5 years.
- Larry Robins
Lawrence H. Robins
>... I currently have [Mozart piano concertos] 18-23 with
>Bilson(fortepiano)/Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists.
>I enjoyed these for a while, but now it seems that the orchestra
>too often drowns out the fortepiano; if the volume is set to a
>pleasing level for the softer solo passages, then the
>orchestral crescendos reach "threshold of pain".
I may have been too harsh on Bilson/Gardiner: I've noticed
unpleasantly loud crescendos, with volume turned up for the
soloist, mostly when listening with headphones (an occasional
habit). And the orchestral playing led by Gardiner has plenty
of excitement and "sweep and drama" . These versions, acquired
a number of years ago through a record club, are what got me
interested in Mozart concertos in the first place.
I even like the fortepiano tone, which some have described as
reminiscent of a "twangy upright piano in a western [USA]
saloon"; just want to hear more of it, so I'm looking foward
to the Staier #9/17.
- Larry Robins
Lawrence H. Robins
following single disks, which include several performances
praised by contributors. As usual, "Berkshire" refers to
www.berkshirerecoutlet.com
#21,26 Casadesus, Szell, Cleveland or Columbia Orch. (budget)
#18,20 Goode, Orpheus Chamber Orch. (full-price)
#12,23 Kocsis, Rolla, Liszt Ch. Orch. (cheap; Berkshire)
#21,25 Kovacevich, Davis, LSO (cheap; Berkshire)
#14,23,25 Moravec, Vlach, Czech Phil. or Ch. Orch. (mid-price)
#9,17 Staier, Conc. Cologne (full-price)
There are duplicates of 21, 23 and 25, hard to avoid with an
assortment like this.
I found an interesting Gramophone review of the Staier, quoted
on a web page (excerpt):
"Andreas Staier, speaking of the use of period instruments in his new
and
"outstanding recording of Mozart s G major Concerto, K453, declares the
"piece has more of the farmyard about it that way and he's absolutely
right.
"From the braying and bellowing of the mid-phrase crescendos, the
snuffling
"and snorting of the bassoons and the hee-hawing of the alternating loud
and
"soft chords, Staier appears throughout it all the delighted child with
a
"favourite picturebook. Conductorless, the string playing in the outer
"movements of both this and the E flat Concerto is buoyant with
daring...
Sounds like the perfect antidote to the understated, low-key, "shrinking
violet" performances disparaged by many contributors.
- Larry Robins