Principals' Salaries at Philharmonia
Chris.M...@gmail.com
principal, asst. principal and assoc. principal players? And how does
it compare to the rest of the section?
For standard of living comparisons, would it be appropriate to say that
25000 pounds a year in London would have as much purchasing power as
about 40000 dollars a year in, say, Atlanta?
Thanks,
-Chris
Paul Ilechko
> For standard of living comparisons, would it be appropriate to say that
> 25000 pounds a year in London would have as much purchasing power as
> about 40000 dollars a year in, say, Atlanta?
No, not even close. What costs a dollar in the USA costs a pound in
London (and I'm going by NYC area rates, Atlanta is probably cheaper).
Frank Berger
"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:4qf07jF...@individual.net...
Let's say a candy bar stands for everything I consume and it costs $1 in the
U.S. My $1 will get me about .50 BP at current exchange rates. So if a
candy bar sells for 1 BP in London (as you say), I would need 2 BP to get my
candy bar. So the Londoner in the above example would need an income of
80,000 BP to be equivalent to the American. So in real terms, he's half as
well off. According to your obervation about prices, anyway. Does this
seem plausible to you?
Paul Ilechko
Yes. But don't forget that the level of consumption is less in many ways
in the UK, particularly with regard to much smaller houses and cars. So
you can't just go by retail prices. However, in general, people in the
professional and upper middle classes are much better off in the USA.
It's different again at the lower economic levels, where the UK, like
most of Europe, has better protection for the poorer members of society.
jrs...@aol.com
Exchange rates work both ways. So if you need 1BP to get a candy bar,
then you need 1BP to get a candy bar, no matter what the exchange rate.
That's $2 however, which means you'll need to double your salary to
live in London. So figure on 40,000 BP to live as comfortably as a
candy-bar obsessed American on $40,000.
--Jeff
Paul Ilechko
Yes, that's right. It's not $80,000.
Gerard
Not to me.
The costs of life might be very different from the costs of candy bars.
alanwa...@aol.com
Principal salaries tend to be "negotiated" but it would be surprising
if any principal in a London orchestra gets £60,000 UK pounds a year.
I would say between £50-60,000. Scaled down for the others you
mention: £35-40, £40-45 et al. Rank and file considerably less.
Outside London even worse (far worse) with some rank and file positions
offering no more than £15-16,000 to start.
The average salary of a player in the Atlanta Symphony ($79,500) would
be just over £41,000 in the UK - not many London orchestral players
are getting that "basic" rate.
How they exist is by doing massive amounts of freelancing and/or
teaching. It is quite common among my friends in London orchestras for
them to do 80-90 hours a week to make the money up. It has always been
this way.
Members of Ms Alsop's excellent Bournemouth Orchestra are frequently to
be found "subbing" in London because they cannot live on Bournemouth
money. Welsh National Opera have just a "core" orchestra with only a
full time timpanist (they sacked the percussion section to save money
years ago). Their players generally come from Birmingham or
Manchester.
You could live on £25,000 a year in London - just. But it would be a
grotty apartment and if you have a wife and children and thought about
owning your own home you can forget it. You would never get a loan.
A recent advertisement for the...errr...."National Symphony Orchestra
of Wales"
BBC National Orchestra of Wales
Sub-Prinicipal (No.3) Double Bass
Salary £24,802 - £27,282
Sub principal No 3 means that if the other two aren't around/available
you are going to be playing No 1 or that is what it means to me. Been
there, done that. I once had a principal who arranged his holidays
around Dukas: Sorcerers Apprentice and the No 2 inevitably phoned in
sick! That is terrible money for someone who will be required to play
1st chair under such circumstances.
Here is another one:
The BBC Philharmonic (Manchester, regional) is currently holding trials
for the positions of:
Rank-and-file first violin
Sub-principal second violin (no.3) (50% job share)
Rank-and-file second violin
Rank-and-file second violin (50% job share)
Sub-principal double bass
Assistant principal (no.2) viola
Sub-principal oboe (no.2)
Rank-and-file viola (30% job share)
No mention about money (wisely). The trial system as abused by some
orchestras (not aimed at the BBC as I do not know) but there are major
players in London orchestras who have now been "on trial" for THREE
YEARS. It is a disgrace. I would suggest 12-15 months is a fair time.
I have spent a lifetime fortunately playing in a country that does not
do "trial periods" - you either get the job or you don't. Again, I do
not know what the American system is but I very much doubt that "trial
periods" go on for two or three years. A year is enough I think and
you are either then properly in or out.
Here is another current one for their versatile BBC Concert Orchestra:
Section Principal Double Bass BBC Concert Orchestra
Ref 656848
Region London
Contract Type Continuing
Job Category Programme Making
Closing date for applications 3 November 2006
Job Description
BBC Concert Orchestra
Principal Conductor: Barry Wordsworth
Principal Guest Conductor: Charles Hazlewood
Composer in Residence: Jonny Greenwood
Leader: Cynthia Fleming
The BBC Concert Orchestra...
...is one of the world's most versatile broadcasting orchestras, with
a repertoire ranging from light classics, musical theatre and films to
opera, jazz and contemporary commissions. On radio, TV and in the
concert hall, it has performed recently with artists as diverse as
Wayne Shorter, Dionne Warwick, Willard White and the Pet Shop Boys. The
BBC Concert Orchestra has performed weekly for Friday Night is Music
Night - the world's longest running live radio show - for more
than 50 years. The BBC CO has a vacancy for the following experienced
player, who can move easily between a wide range of musical styles and
is enthusiastic about playing light music.
SECTION PRINCIPAL DOUBLE BASS
Salary range £32,079 - £34,966 (under review)
For an application form, please contact:
Claire Tapping, Assistant Orchestra Manager,
BBC Concert Orchestra
Tel: 020 8752 4654.
Email: claire....@bbc.co.uk
Alternatively, you can apply for this job on line at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/jobs
Closing date Friday 3 November 2006.
The BBC is an equal opportunities employer.
Please note he is the PRINCIPAL.
To make a living I'm afraid you must still get out every time you are
not scheduled for "your" orchestra. As an example many of the
members of the London HIP orchestras come from the main London
orchestras and the HIP orchestra managers hold regular meetings to try
and avoid concerts on the same night and plan their calendar
accordingly wherever possible. All HIP orchestras rely on "freelance
overtime" in the UK and in this way they avoid fighting over the same
people.
Not good. There are plenty of musicians in the UK working seven days/
nights a week to "make up" their money - last night's Philharmonia may
well constitute the next night's London Festival Orchestra "Orchestral
Spectacular".
Or if you were to wonder why the City of London Sinfonia are
accompanying Opera in Holland Park while (apparently) doing an outdoor
concert "With Fireworks" 65 miles away on the same evening, wonder no
more. Or why the Royal Philharmonic "Pops" Orchestra has been known to
perform simultaneously on the same evening FOUR TIMES hundreds of
miles apart..................
It is usually a lot of Ladies and Gentlemen trying to make their money
up!
One of my teachers, the late Jimmy Blades once proffered this advice:
"If the phone rings and you are free on the dates, my advice is to say
Yes."
I have stuck rigidly to this mantra for over 40 years.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Frank Berger
Not exactly. If I earned $1 in the U.S. and 1 BP in the UK, I could buy one
candy bar in each place, under the assumptions. But with an income of 1 BP
in the UK I could could convert that to $2 at current exchangerates and
order 2 candy bars from the U.S. and be ahead of the game (less shipping and
other transactions costs).
alanwa...@aol.com
Principal salaries tend to be "negotiated" but it would be surprising
Sub-Prinicipal (No.3) Double Bass
Salary £24,802 - £27,282
Here is another one:
Job Description
SECTION PRINCIPAL DOUBLE BASS
BBC Concert Orchestra
Tel: 020 8752 4654.
Email: claire....@bbc.co.uk
One of my teachers, the late Jimmy Blades once offered this advice:
Iain Neill Reid
>
>"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
>news:4qf07jF...@individual.net...
>> Chris.M...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> For standard of living comparisons, would it be appropriate to say that
>>> 25000 pounds a year in London would have as much purchasing power as
>>> about 40000 dollars a year in, say, Atlanta?
>>
>> No, not even close. What costs a dollar in the USA costs a pound in London
>> (and I'm going by NYC area rates, Atlanta is probably cheaper).
>
>Let's say a candy bar stands for everything I consume and it costs $1 in the
>U.S. My $1 will get me about .50 BP at current exchange rates. So if a
>candy bar sells for 1 BP in London (as you say), I would need 2 BP to get my
Frank Berger
"Iain Neill Reid" <i...@morales.stsci.edu> wrote in message
news:ehtqe0$q...@morales.stsci.edu...
>
>
Paul Ilechko
> Not exactly. If I earned $1 in the U.S. and 1 BP in the UK, I could buy one
> candy bar in each place, under the assumptions. But with an income of 1 BP
> in the UK I could could convert that to $2 at current exchangerates and
> order 2 candy bars from the U.S. and be ahead of the game (less shipping and
> other transactions costs).
>
>
That model does not scale to real life. You can't order most of the
items that make up the largest share of your expenses, like shelter,
transportation, energy, insurance, perishable food and healthcare.
jrs...@aol.com
Brain cumulonimbus.
If you earned $1 in the US and 1 BP in the UK you'd be earning $3
overall but spending a fortune commuting back and forth.
--Jeff
ne...@thump.org
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>So the Londoner in the above example would need an income of
>80,000 BP to be equivalent to the American. So in real terms, he's half as
>well off. According to your obervation about prices, anyway. Does this
>seem plausible to you?
Housing and travel costs in London are hefty - infact insane. Renting
is now looking cheaper than buying a house.
Considering a 3-bed house in Zone 2 would set you back 450k min, you
start to get the picture. There are family houses in South East and
north East London that haven't yet gone though the 300k mark but
these areas are not the greatest.
jrs...@aol.com
alanwa...@aol.com wrote:
> Chris.M...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Does anyone here know the approximate salary of the Philharmonia's
> > principal, asst. principal and assoc. principal players? And how does
> > it compare to the rest of the section?
> >
> > For standard of living comparisons, would it be appropriate to say that
> > 25000 pounds a year in London would have as much purchasing power as
> > about 40000 dollars a year in, say, Atlanta?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Chris
>
> Principal salaries tend to be "negotiated" but it would be surprising
> if any principal in a London orchestra gets £60,000 UK pounds a year.
> I would say between £50-60,000. Scaled down for the others you
> mention: £35-40, £40-45 et al. Rank and file considerably less.
> Outside London even worse (far worse) with some rank and file positions
> offering no more than £15-16,000 to start.
>
> The average salary of a player in the Atlanta Symphony ($79,500) would
> be just over £41,000 in the UK - not many London orchestral players
> are getting that "basic" rate.
Is "basic" rate in London the same concept as an "average salary"?
Either way, it sounds like the rank and file in the top UK orchestras
get paid quite well, just as they do in Atlanta. Assuming Atlanta is a
relatively expensive metropolitan area (it is getting more expensive
quickly, that salary is an ok living for a small family unless they're
paying off a recently purchased house and paying for private schools
'cause they picked a cheap neighborhood.
--Jeff
alanwa...@aol.com
The average salary for rank and file orchestral musicians is around
£27,000 (before tax) currently, according to the Musicians Union. You
can make a living in London if you get on the freelance circuit and are
prepared to do 80 hours plus a week - not otherwise. London is one of
the most expensive cities in Europe in which to live - property prices
in many areas higher than Manhattan - subway fares three times as much.
Some friends of my wife who live in NYC were "absolutely shocked" by
prices on a recent visit to London.
This may explain why:
http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm
A two bedroom apartment to rent in London will start at around £800
($1500) a month. Only the BBC offer a pension scheme - otherwise you
have to buy it out of your salary.
Andy Evans
orchestras (not aimed at the BBC as I do not know) but there are major
players in London orchestras who have now been "on trial" for THREE
YEARS. It is a disgrace. I would suggest 12-15 months is a fair time.
I have spent a lifetime fortunately playing in a country that does not
do "trial periods" - you either get the job or you don't.>>
I'm with you in thinking that long trials are inhuman (and remember
that one player from within the orchestra can have several as he/she
goes up the section towards principal), but it's sometimes the players
themselves who want it that way. Two different experiences, for
example, from the COE, which requires a triallist to have UNANIMOUS
approval from the orchestra (!).
One, a violinist who had waited three years for a place when two people
voted against her, was disgusted and went and joined a London
orchestra. The other, a principal, was all in favour - said it made for
a happy orchestra. I asked him if this meant all the orchestra players
were nice easy going people, and his response was "no - I can think of
one complete bastard, but they're all great musicians and that's what
counts".
I've had this conversation countless times, recently with the ABO in
meetings, but there's resistance to any trials shorter than 6 months,
and that's mostly from the players.
Alan P Dawes
That of course is in pounds not dollars.
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | alan....@riscos.org
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Paul Ilechko
> A two bedroom apartment to rent in London will start at around £800
> ($1500) a month. Only the BBC offer a pension scheme - otherwise you
> have to buy it out of your salary.
To give some context - in around 1980 I was renting a four bedroom flat
with three friends in a somewhat grubby area of London on the
Shoreditch/Hoxton borders for around eight pounds a month each. A couple
of years later I moved into a my own place in a nicer part of North
London, where I paid 16 pounds a month for a bedsitting room, a private
kitchen and a shared bathroom with two other tenants.
I was looking into buying a one bedroom flat in the same area, prices
were in the mid 20K range, but I ended up moving to the USA instead.
A few years later prices exploded. It was a big mistake not to have
bought earlier ...
Kalman Rubinson
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>Some friends of my wife who live in NYC were "absolutely shocked" by
>prices on a recent visit to London.
>
>This may explain why:
>
>http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm
>
>A two bedroom apartment to rent in London will start at around £800
>($1500) a month. Only the BBC offer a pension scheme - otherwise you
>have to buy it out of your salary.
There's a bit of a disconnect here. A 2BR apt. for $1500/mo cannot be
found in Manhattan unless it has major faults. Even a 5th floor
walk-up or an apt. with no windows (illegal) would cost more. It may
be possible in outlying areas.
Kal
alanwa...@aol.com
That was the cheapest one I could find and it was not in a particularly
nice area of London. If you want to rent a two bedroom apartment in,
say, Kensington and Chelsea you would be looking at $4,547-6573 per
month.
If you wanted to BUY a three bed apartment in South Kensington you
would be looking at something over $6 million.
Andy Evans
nice area of London. If you want to rent a two bedroom apartment in,
say, Kensington and Chelsea you would be looking at $4,547-6573 per
month. If you wanted to BUY a three bed apartment in South Kensington
you
would be looking at something over $6 million. >>
I think this is top end. I live in West Kensington and my 3 bed flat is
worth about $800,000. And that's just off High St Kensington in a
residential area. Andy
alanwa...@aol.com
But you would be hard pressed to buy or get a mortgage on UK £30,000
or even UK £60,000 for same today I think?
Andy Evans
or even UK £60,000 for same today I think? >>
Yes, of course. The way it's done:
Partner 1: Salary £30,000 three times salary loan = £90,000
Partner 2: Salary £30,000 three times salary loan = £90,000
Total loan = £180,000
Add deposit to make up price of appartment.
This kind of thing - couples buy the larger appartments, singles buy
the single bed appts. further out from the centre at about £180,000.
Either way, that's a crippling mortgage, and you need a big deposit.
This is going to crash some day, but then a lot of foreigners buy in
London and there's a lot of Russian money about just for starters. The
amazing thing is that, apart from the richest areas, home owners live
in the same streets as immigrants who arrive without a penny to their
name.
Kalman Rubinson
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>That was the cheapest one I could find and it was not in a particularly
>nice area of London. If you want to rent a two bedroom apartment in,
>say, Kensington and Chelsea you would be looking at $4,547-6573 per
>month.
OK. Comparable to the nicer areas in Manhattan, but not more.
>If you wanted to BUY a three bed apartment in South Kensington you
>would be looking at something over $6 million.
Ah. Not typical but common in some areas in Manhattan. Depends, of
course, on location and amenities.
Kal
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 27, 10:30 am, Chris.Marti...@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anyone here know the approximate salary of the Philharmonia's
> principal, asst. principal and assoc. principal players? And how does
> it compare to the rest of the section?
>
> For standard of living comparisons, would it be appropriate to say that
> 25000 pounds a year in London would have as much purchasing power as
> about 40000 dollars a year in, say, Atlanta?
>
> Thanks,
> -Chris
If you are thinking of going abroad and are on the level that you could
get a principal position in the Philharmonia, consider going to Germany
instead. You can have a very good life there as an orchestral musician
because the orchestras are all state funded. Nice salary, relaxed
working conditions, secure employment. The orchestral musicians in the
UK all work themselves nearly to death for little money. It's quite a
shame really, and all the more impressive that they have so many good
players and orchestras.
Which instrument do you play?
Andy Evans
> get a principal position in the Philharmonia, consider going to Germany
> instead. You can have a very good life there as an orchestral musician
> because the orchestras are all state funded. Nice salary, relaxed
> working conditions, secure employment. >>
Some here may remember newsgroup member Nic Hodges - a now well
recorded pianist who's played with the Chicago SO and other prestigious
ensembles. He's happy in Marbach (near Stuttgart) and extolls the
living conditions in Germany - secure tenure, wonderful health
provision etc. Central for gigs around Europe etc. Just don't start him
on what car his neighbours feel fits in with the tone of the
street......
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 28, 4:46 pm, "Andy Evans" <performanceandme...@gmail.com>
wrote:
What does the last sentence mean?
alanwa...@aol.com
I would second that. I got out of England by accident in 1963 but if I
was starting again it would be by design, not accident.
dk
LIkewise, a decent 2br cannot found in London for £800 per month.
More likely £800 per week.
dk
AG
AG
Andy Evans
tone of the street...... >>
What does the last sentence mean? >>
Nic explained that as a new arrival in the street (residential part of
Marbach) the neighbours would be looking to see what his choice of car
was. He felt that a Mercedes would be too ostentatious for his
position, since he was merely renting, but that a BMW might create the
impression that he wasn't entirely trustworthy (this is Stuttgart, not
Bavaria). A Volkswagon might not be aspirational enough. He figured
that an Audi estate would be the right place to start. Since he moved
in the neighbours have come over to chat and discuss what options and
extras he ordered for the car - this is apparantly a talking point. He
showed me a two page list of options that one considers for each new
car - colour of dashboad lights etc... Aren't you familiar with this,
Michael?
dk
AG wrote:
> dk wrote:
> > Likewise, a decent 2br cannot found in London for £800 per month.
> > More likely £800 per week.
> You sound well-informed Dan. Are you coming over to join us? ;)
Only if some charitable soul would be willing to
pay my rent. I have been desperately trying to
move to London since 1996.... 8-((
dk
dk
The truth is far plainer and simpler.
Audi's are the only vehicles suitable for poliphony ;-)
dk
ne...@thump.org
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
> It is quite common among my friends in London orchestras for
>them to do 80-90 hours a week to make the money up. It has always been
>this way.
YEs, Its exactly the same with people I know in London orchestras. Its
no life. The pay is miserable, the hours are terrible and frankly
there's such poor programming these days I'm surprised the the
orchestras manage to keep any players. I think the Royal Opera
Orchestra have the best T & Cs.
I don't think its much better in NYC. There's a very good book by one
Blair Tindall, "Mozart in the Jungle" who is a professional oboist
and now a writer. She chronicals her time fighting for work in NYC and
around the eastern states. She gave up full-time music in her early
thirties and went to college to study journalism because she was so
sick of scraping a living together from music.
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 29, 3:42 am, "Andy Evans" <performanceandme...@gmail.com>
wrote:
No, not at all. Like everywhere else, some people in Germany see cars
as status symbols and some don't. I could imagine people in some places
which are a little more affluent and conservative, and status conscious
(like in Stuttgart which is fairly provincial and conservative), care a
little more and it might be a discussion topic, but that's not
generally representative, just like there are people where I live (in
San Diego) who take their pets to pet psychiatrists but that is not
generally representative of the US population, I think. Oddly, German
cars are a status symbol here, too.
BTW, Audi is made in Bavaria, too, so BMW is "not OK" but Audi is makes
the story look even more made up and/or embellished than it already
obviously is.
Andy Evans
the story look even more made up and/or embellished than it already
obviously is. >>
Not at all - it's virtually direct quotes I do assure you. For some
people BMW has a 'boy racer' image that Audi doesn't (BMW referred to
as "bugger my wiring" or "bill me, wanker" due to its popularity with
joy riders). My point about Bavaria is that it may be more mainstream
there since it's made there. Audi never had that boy racer image to
start with.
bl...@stanfordalumni.org
Jungle." From speaking with friends who are UK freelance musicians, I
believe US musicians may earn roughly double that of our English
counterparts. The problem isn't so much salaries, as our musicians
union, part of the AFL-CIO, has done a remarkable job of negotiating
pay and benefits over the past few decades. It's the volume of work and
its sporadic scheduling that pose the problem for many trying to make a
full-time living as classical musicians in the US. Many of the
orchestral jobs past the "top 10" orchestras (and remember, this means
a total of only about 800 jobs nationwide, when about 11,000 students
graduate with music majors each year) can pay under $35,000 -- with
many of the positions advertised in the union paper paying under
$5,000.
Clearly, musicians need to know something about the entrepreneurial
spirit, and also about technology and marketing -- which are opening
many exciting new opportunities for classical artists to distribute
their work independently. I hope that music departments will start
incorporating these subjects into their curricula, as Juilliard and
others have already started to do.
Sincerely,
Blair Tindall
www.mozartinthejungle.com
Michael Schaffer
On Nov 10, 9:35 am, b...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Hello and thank you for the kind words about my book, "Mozart in the
> Jungle." From speaking with friends who are UK freelance musicians, I
> believe US musicians may earn roughly double that of our English
> counterparts. The problem isn't so much salaries, as our musicians
> union, part of the AFL-CIO, has done a remarkable job of negotiating
> pay and benefits over the past few decades. It's the volume of work and
> its sporadic scheduling that pose the problem for many trying to make a
> full-time living as classical musicians in the US. Many of the
> orchestral jobs past the "top 10" orchestras (and remember, this means
> a total of only about 800 jobs nationwide, when about 11,000 students
> graduate with music majors each year) can pay under $35,000 -- with
> many of the positions advertised in the union paper paying under
> $5,000.
How much do you make in orchestras which don't have a full season, like
this one, for instance?
http://www.capesymphony.org/
> Clearly, musicians need to know something about the entrepreneurial
> spirit, and also about technology and marketing -- which are opening
> many exciting new opportunities for classical artists to distribute
> their work independently. I hope that music departments will start
> incorporating these subjects into their curricula, as Juilliard and
> others have already started to do.
>
> Sincerely,
> Blair Tindallwww.mozartinthejungle.com
>
> n...@thump.org wrote:
> > On 27 Oct 2006 13:25:34 -0700, "alanwatkin...@aol.com"
alanwa...@aol.com
> How much do you make in orchestras which don't have a full season, like
> this one, for instance?
> http://www.capesymphony.org/
>
I have no idea but here is an example from provincial England.
This is for a FULL 12 month season:
Maximum of 440 three-hour sessions in a calendar year with 94
guaranteed free days.
Section Leader per three hour session: £75.88 to £85.66 (equates in
440 sessions to UK £33,388 - £37,690) equates to $63,751-$71,965.
Rank and file £55.07 per three hour session equates on 440 three-hour
sessions to £24,232 equates to $46,268.
That is not for a season: it is for a full 12 months running from
October 1 to September 31st in the following year and valid from (All
Fools Day) April 1st 2005.
Source: Musicians Union UK current contract with the orchestra
concerned.
Ward Hardman
> Just don't start him > on what car his neighbours feel fits in with the
> tone of the street...... >>
>
> What does the last sentence mean? >>
>
> Nic explained that as a new arrival in the street (residential part of
> Marbach) the neighbours would be looking to see what his choice of car
> was. He felt that a Mercedes would be too ostentatious for his
> position, since he was merely renting, but that a BMW might create the
> impression that he wasn't entirely trustworthy (this is Stuttgart, not
> Bavaria). A Volkswagon might not be aspirational enough. He figured
One of my friends in Stuttgart tells me "Ich liebe meine Mazda!"
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just
simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Fraud Hardman
Ward Hardman wrote:
> One of my friends in Stuttgart tells me "Ich liebe meine Mazda!"
Hey Wardy, you forgot to cross-post. By the way, no-one believes you
have friends. Even Michael Schaffer probably crosses the street when he
smells you coming.
bl...@stanfordalumni.org
> this one, for instance?
> http://www.capesymphony.org/
It looks as if they have about seven classical and pops series of two
concerts each, probably with four rehearsals totalling about 10 hours
for each series. I'm just guesstimating, but let's say section pay is
$35/hour for rehearsal and $120 per concert, that would total $4130 if
the musician did everything. (Is that still about 2050 British pounds?)
I might be a little off, but not by much. Those playing principal or
playing more than one instrument would surely earn more. They likely
also have a couple of children's or in-school concerts which might
involve one rehearsal and a number of daytime performances -- which may
or may not pay a reduced rate from the regular series. The union offers
something called the "Music Performance Trust Fund," which provides
money for free, public performances but pays the musicians very little.
Still, it's a great resource for such situations where music is being
brought to the public free of charge where it wouldn't otherwise be
heard and musicians would otherwise be working.
Obviously this isn't a full-time job, it's quite sporadic. Naturally
there aren't any benefits like health insurance atttached, and only
rarely does a pension contribution kick in for a gig like this.
But there is a wide range in part-time orchestra salaries. Since this
Cape Cod Symphony is not a member of any of the union players'
conferences, I am guessing they might make less than what I estimate
above, but I could be wrong. I'll bet that some musicians who freelance
in Boston do the freeway philharmonic routin by coming down to perform,
and others might be Cape Cod music teachers (including school
band/orchestra directors), probably with a few who play well but work
primarily at other jobs in the region. I was in a regional orchestra
for awhile that was considerably larger than this, and among part-time
professional musicians we had a math teacher and assorted business
people playing along with full-time professionals.
Blair Tindall
www.mozartinthejungle.com
Michael Schaffer
On Nov 10, 9:44 pm, b...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > How much do you make in orchestras which don't have a full season, like
> > this one, for instance?
> >http://www.capesymphony.org/It looks as if they have about seven classical and pops series of two
> concerts each, probably with four rehearsals totalling about 10 hours
> for each series. I'm just guesstimating, but let's say section pay is
> $35/hour for rehearsal and $120 per concert, that would total $4130 if
> the musician did everything. (Is that still about 2050 British pounds?)
You can endow a tutti chair for $4k/year and a principal chair for
$5/year. That seems to confirm your numbers.
Doesn't look like much. Or are living costs in Cape Cod that low? Can
you srvive on that for the whole year?
> I might be a little off, but not by much. Those playing principal or
> playing more than one instrument would surely earn more. They likely
> also have a couple of children's or in-school concerts which might
> involve one rehearsal and a number of daytime performances -- which may
> or may not pay a reduced rate from the regular series. The union offers
> something called the "Music Performance Trust Fund," which provides
> money for free, public performances but pays the musicians very little.
> Still, it's a great resource for such situations where music is being
> brought to the public free of charge where it wouldn't otherwise be
> heard and musicians would otherwise be working.
>
> Obviously this isn't a full-time job, it's quite sporadic. Naturally
> there aren't any benefits like health insurance atttached, and only
> rarely does a pension contribution kick in for a gig like this.
>
> But there is a wide range in part-time orchestra salaries. Since this
> Cape Cod Symphony is not a member of any of the union players'
> conferences,
What are these conferences?
> I am guessing they might make less than what I estimate
> above, but I could be wrong. I'll bet that some musicians who freelance
> in Boston do the freeway philharmonic routin by coming down to perform,
> and others might be Cape Cod music teachers (including school
> band/orchestra directors), probably with a few who play well but work
> primarily at other jobs in the region. I was in a regional orchestra
> for awhile that was considerably larger than this, and among part-time
> professional musicians we had a math teacher and assorted business
> people playing along with full-time professionals.
I am told this is one of the best orchestras in the US, though, right
after the BSO. So they probably don't have any math teachers or office
managers there.
> Blair Tindallwww.mozartinthejungle.com
Bob Harper
argument is really beneath you, Michael. It also reinforces the negative
image of Germans you so loudly proclaim is unfair. Time to drop it
unless you are happy in the role of bully.
Bob Harper
Josep Vilanova
played a really good version of the symphonie fantastique. They also
recorded it live, then I assume they'll also release it on one of those
live labels, like the LSO or the LPO are doing. And, looking at their
website, I am amazed to see how on the 14th of this month they will
manage to play the same concert in Hamburg and, exactly at the same
time, give an operatic performance in London with Barbara Fritolli and
Giuliano Carella. It's not like if the Fantastique demands an small
orchestra.
j
Michael Schaffer
On Nov 11, 7:25 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> This grudge-holding, and insistence on belittling your opponent in an
> argument is really beneath you, Michael.
That has nothing to do with any grudges. I was just curious. It's
interesting to hear these facts from an insider. Is there any thing
negative about the facts themselves?
> It also reinforces the negative
> image of Germans you so loudly proclaim is unfair. Time to drop it
> unless you are happy in the role of bully.
>
> Bob Harper
So you think *one guy* (me) posting on a chitchat forum about classical
music is representative for an 80 million people? Boy are you a dumb
provincial racist. I didn't think that of you, really.
Or maybe you aren't. Maybe all 80 million Germans are all the same.
They all work in the US, they all like Szechuan cusine, Sushi,
Bratwurst und Sauerkraut (yes, my tastes in food range widely) they all
collect classical recordings, and all of them collect specifically
Russian orchestral recordings from the Soviet era. That's why it is so
hard to find some of these recordings! Now I know why!! Thanks for
clearing that up for me.
BTW, I don't really care what *you* think about "Germans". It is
obvious you don't know much about the country, people, history, and
culture anyway, except for some vague clichés.
BTW2, despite of what I said above, not all Germans like Sauerkraut. I
don't wear Lederhosen, though, at least not right now.
Bob Harper
word. It is *you* who make yourself representative of your nation (with
your claims about superior culture, etc.), not me.
Your statement that 'That has nothing to do with any grudges' is
risible. You've demonstrated time and again that you can't let go of any
dispute without having the last word and without personalizing the
matter, e.g., descending to the charge that I am 'a dumb provincial
racist'. I am none of these things, and your assumption that I know
nothing about Germany is simply incorrect. I've spent a good bit of time
there (though not as much as I would like) and I speak the language
(though not as well as I would like). I'm certainly not so silly as
think that all Germans are lederhosen-clad, sauerkraut-eating,
beer-swilling folk. My wife of 28 years, for example, is none of these
things, despite a heritage that is 100% German.
As it happens, I like all the foods you mention, and some (Thai and
Indian) that you don't. I also enjoy recordings from the old Soviet
Union--Mravinsky's Sibelius 7th, for example, is a Desert Island Disc if
ever there was one, and Sanderling's mono Rachmaninoff 2nd Symphony is
one of the greatest performances of that work ever set down, despite the
cuts.
You will no doubt insist on the last word, thereby demonstrating once
again the validity of what I've said. You are welcome to it; I'm done.
Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
> > don't wear Lederhosen, though, at least not right now.Since this post is a perfect demonstration of my point, I haven't cut a
> word. It is *you* who make yourself representative of your nation (with
> your claims about superior culture, etc.), not me.
I never declared myself "representative of my nation" and I never made
"claims about superior culture", you bigoted asshole. But I can see why
it must feel really good for people with your attitude and prejudices
to put down other people and other nations like that. It is so easy,
isn't it? You don't respect that some people from other places have a
cultural heritage, for you, all that culture stuff is really just
something from a global supermarket that you can help yourself to. That
some people feel connected in some ways to the cultural heritage of the
place they come from and where they grew up surrounded by that heritage
has nothing to do with such "claims". Your arrogant attacks show that
you don't respect the relationship other people have with their own
culture, and that reveals you to be the worst kind of racist and
cultural ignorant.
> Your statement that 'That has nothing to do with any grudges' is
> risible. You've demonstrated time and again that you can't let go of any
> dispute without having the last word and without personalizing the
> matter, e.g., descending to the charge that I am 'a dumb provincial
> racist'.
That's exactly what you show you are. Especially your repeated attempts
to discredit other people by levelling completely unfounded charges
against them that they make "claims to cultural superiority" is
sickening - and way, way, way worse than any direct personal attacks
one could make. You are a racist of the worst kind.
> I am none of these things, and your assumption that I know
> nothing about Germany is simply incorrect. I've spent a good bit of time
> there (though not as much as I would like) and I speak the language
> (though not as well as I would like). I'm certainly not so silly as
> think that all Germans are lederhosen-clad, sauerkraut-eating,
> beer-swilling folk. My wife of 28 years, for example, is none of these
> things, despite a heritage that is 100% German.
>
> As it happens, I like all the foods you mention, and some (Thai and
> Indian) that you don't. I also enjoy recordings from the old Soviet
> Union--Mravinsky's Sibelius 7th, for example, is a Desert Island Disc if
> ever there was one, and Sanderling's mono Rachmaninoff 2nd Symphony is
> one of the greatest performances of that work ever set down, despite the
> cuts.
>
> You will no doubt insist on the last word, thereby demonstrating once
> again the validity of what I've said. You are welcome to it; I'm done.
What business of yours is it anyway what I want to ask other people in
this forum? Are you the superior judge here? Are you the measure of all
things? I already know it is unbearable for you that some people have
their own culture. You want to take that away from them. Now you also
want to dictate what they say and what they ask other people? Who do
you think you are?
> Bob Harper
dk
Ward Hardman wrote:
> Andy Evans wrote:
> > Just don't start him > on what car his neighbours feel fits in with the
> > tone of the street...... >>
> >
> > What does the last sentence mean? >>
> >
> > Nic explained that as a new arrival in the street (residential part of
> > Marbach) the neighbours would be looking to see what his choice of car
> > was. He felt that a Mercedes would be too ostentatious for his
> > position, since he was merely renting, but that a BMW might create the
> > impression that he wasn't entirely trustworthy (this is Stuttgart, not
> > Bavaria). A Volkswagon might not be aspirational enough. He figured
> > that an Audi estate would be the right place to start. [snip]
>
> One of my friends in Stuttgart tells me "Ich liebe meine Mazda!"
>
Serious brain damage.
dk