More about Rattle

[Josep Vilanova]

I never liked Rattle (mostly since I paid £150 to see him butchering a
Parsifal in the Royal Opera House in London). I always had an strong
admiration to Barenboim though. Now that Rattle has been the main conductor
(or whatever his title is) of the Berlin Philarmonic for a while, what is
the general view of him there? Do people consider him worthy to have that
post? Do people consider him a waste of time, a mistake taken by the members
of that orchestra in a moment of collective delusion? Do they think that
Barenboim would have been a much better candidate? Do they consider Rattle a
worthy successor of Furtwangler, Karajan and Abbado?

josep

[Alain Dagher]

See the following article:

http://tinyurl.com/6fy2p

ad

[mista...@yahoo.com]

FWIW, my own opinion would be that SR was a suitably gutsy choice for
Berlin, but someone whose accomplishment remains to be proven. It's
great that the BPO chose someone likely to take them in unexpected
directions (rather than a caretaker, such as New York has in Maazel).
But the results, IMO, have been mixed, to say the least. I haven't
heard the Beethoven cycle (which, at any rate, was with Vienna), but
the 'Fidelio' was an embarassment. The recent Messiaen disc, on the
other hand, strikes me as quite successful. The BPO happened to tour
through my neck of the woods last year, and the concert was also full
of high highs and low lows: a surprisingly ragged Haydn 88, so-so 'La
Mer', and terrific Sibelius 7.

[Michael Schaffer]

"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@macmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:BDFF1275.1221B%josepv...@macmail.com...

I don't live in Berlin anymore, so I can't give you much info about how he
is seen there now, although I heard from friends that his innovative
programming and ideas to reach young people with symphonic music are very
much appreciated.
What I can tell you for sure though is that DB was never a candidate for the
vast majority of orchestra members. They like to work with him because he is
professional and mostly reliable, but he lacks a really distinct musical
personality. And he is not always reliable either: I have seen him freak out
completely on his very high box in front of the Chicago Symphony playing
Symphonie Fantastique. In the last movement, his gestures became wilder and
more and more dramatic while he gave several wrong entries (but the
musicians came in at the right moment anyway). Maybe there is a curse that
haunts him in this piece: I remember very dimly that around the time they
were chosing a new principal conductor after HvK there were problems with a
Fantastique in a Berlin concert after which many members of the orchestra
refused to even discuss him for the job.

[No One]

IMHO, Barenboim was always a better man for the job... I don't live in
Berlin, so I only know Rattle's work in Berlin from the recordings... So
far, I found his M10 superb, his Gurrelieder and his M5 just OK and the
Fidelio, I intensely disliked... same as his LvB symphonies with Vienna...
Haven't heard the Messiaen (sp?) release but he is a composer I don't
particularly care for, so I probably I will never listen to it.

Being a great Barenboim fan, I have to say I felt hurt (bit of an
exaggeration - a bit, but not much) when he was passed over for the job. I
read the orchestras' opinion later in this thread and I couldn't disagree
more ; He definitively has a distinct personality - all the Furtwaengler
clone charges are in my opinion unjustified. Almost makes you suspect of
extra musical reasons for the decision....

V

"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@macmail.com> wrote in message
news:BDFF1275.1221B%josepv...@macmail.com...

[Dan Koren]

"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:5AeCd.362059$0f.1...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...

>
> See the following article:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6fy2p
>

How does tinyurl make money?

Just curious....

dk

[Michael Schaffer]

"No One" <No...@nowhere.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:WIrCd.23891$L7.15354@trnddc05...

> IMHO, Barenboim was always a better man for the job... I don't live in
> Berlin, so I only know Rattle's work in Berlin from the recordings... So
> far, I found his M10 superb, his Gurrelieder and his M5 just OK and the
> Fidelio, I intensely disliked... same as his LvB symphonies with Vienna...
> Haven't heard the Messiaen (sp?) release but he is a composer I don't
> particularly care for, so I probably I will never listen to it.
>
> Being a great Barenboim fan, I have to say I felt hurt (bit of an
> exaggeration - a bit, but not much) when he was passed over for the job.
I
> read the orchestras' opinion later in this thread and I couldn't disagree
> more ; He definitively has a distinct personality - all the Furtwaengler
> clone charges are in my opinion unjustified. Almost makes you suspect of
> extra musical reasons for the decision....
>
> V

I hope you are not hinting at "latent anti-semitism" or something like that.
If so, remember he is still one of the people they have worked with most and
he was also hired not very long after (abbado's appointment) to head the
State Opera in Berlin. Which I hear he has done very successfully.
Please note that I am relating gossip, not facts, shreds of opinions and
information related by players in the orchestra. There will never be
official statements about this anyway, in both cases they argued for hours
on end behind closed doors.
You can trust the orchestra members to know best what's good for the
orchestra. They work with all these conductors intensely over many years and
know their qualities and drawbacks better than anyone else. And they also
see the overall picture very well. It is very interesting to note that
Rattle basically said "if I am to come to Berlin, many things will have to
change" and they agreed, including the most far reaching restructuring of
the orchestra in its history. But apparently they understood that he might
be the right man to take them into the 21st century. Which Barenboim most
definitely is not, regardless of his professional qualities. It has turned
out that more or less all of the once young and fresh generation which were
at times prophesied to take over after Karajan - for instance, Barenboim,
Mehta, Ozawa, Muti, Levine -, all very talented musicians, just kept
jetsetting all over the globe and repeating themselves rather than exploring
new ideas. Barenboim especially has often been criticized for simply doing
too much, but not enough in depth.
Abbado on the other hand did walk often outside trodden paths. I think that
is one quality that the musicians admired in him and that played an
important role in his nomination back then. He was nearly swallowed up
though by the relentless music business machinery for which he obviously is
not made.
I don't have an opinion of Rattle. I only saw him in concert once, and know
only a few of his recordings, some of which I find superb, some less
interesting. I was actually surprised by his nomination. But then, who else
could take on the challenges of this post which are far more than just
musical direction? I trust that the musicians have made the best decision,
as they always have.

BTW, I never understood the Furtwängler clone charges levelled at Barenboim.
I know he admires F, but he strikes me as a very different type of musician.

[Ivailo Partchev]

It makes for horrible reading. First of all, it drops the dirty word
"postmodern" in a key place. Second, it states that, look, even if he
cannot produce good results in music (conducting the Berlin Phil!!!), he
does create a friendly atmosphere and did a great job in conducting 200
Berlin schoolchildren. What an age!

[Josep Vilanova]

I basically agree with No One here (irony not necessarily intended). I
consider Barenboim to be, by far, the most interesting musician alive now. I
don't think there were extra musical questions here though. Maybe they were
just looking for a bit of adventure with Rattle. Anyway, we'll see what the
future has to offer. New year is always a good time to question about the
future, isn't it?

josep

On 4/1/05 7:37 am, in article WIrCd.23891$L7.15354@trnddc05, "No One"

[Ivailo Partchev]

If we are to go to such sweeping generalizations, the most interesting
musician alive is Catalan like yourself, and goes by the name of Jordi.

[josep]

You've made an interesting point. I'm Catalan and I've seen Barenboim
live about 20 times and I've only seen Savall once. Maybe that has
something to do with the weight of the german musical tradition to
anyone studying music in that part of the world. Maybe it has also
something to do with a certain mistrust of things that are local. To
give you an example, before Savall did his recording of Mozart Requiem,
he did a series of concerts (pairing it with the Seven last words), and
the reviews in the Barcelona press were quite negative. I guess if it
has something to do with him lacking the glamour of something that they
may feel as a remote. At the same time, when I was a young music
student, the Madrid music magazine I was subscribed to was completely
infatuated with Barenboim, even to a ridiculous degree. I wonder
whether the willingness of the Spanish government in giving him an
Spanish passport comes from the prestige he gained through that
magazine. If someone's want to be less cynical, we could say that the
iberic tradition of music making values some degree of 'soul searching'
in their performances. Barenboim expresses those qualities, as
Celibidache, Furtwangler, or Klemperer do. Or even Savall... Hmmm...
well, he's unlikely to be proposed to conduct the Berlin Phil anyway.
josep

[David Hurwitz]

In article <BE008FEF.12496%josepv...@macmail.com>, Josep Vilanova says...

>
Maybe they were
>just looking for a bit of adventure with Rattle. >
>

This was discussed endlessly at the time--where have you folks been? The reason
Rattle got the job, aside from the fact that the orchestra liked him, was
because he came with an EMI recording contract at a time when Univendigram was
imploding and the market was saturated. Abbado had been a big disappointment in
that regard, with Sony tanking under Gelb as well, and the fact that Rattle
enjoyed the knee-jerk support of the British musical press also counted in his
favor. It's also worth noting that the Berlin Phil, which has a collective ego
as big as Karajan's ever was, could never have worked with Barenboim for long,
as he is also similarly strong-willed and moreover was unwilling to limit his
engagements elsewhere to the extent the orchestra would have wanted (quite
reasonably in my view). This is not to say that Rattle is a wimp,
artistically--clearly he is not, but the orchestra no doubt believed that in the
long term they would get along with him better. As to the results, on recordings
Rattle's Berlin efforts have not been any different than his Birmingham ones:
inconsistent--though obviously with a better orchestra.

David Hurwitz

[josep]

That makes sense to me. Thank you!

josep

[Michael Schaffer]

"josep" <josepv...@macmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1104943455.3...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> That makes sense to me. Thank you!

But not to me. Mr Hurwitz obviously has not many insights into the Berlin
music scene. The "big ego" of the orchestra means that they think they are
the greatest and therefore, only who they see as the greatest is just good
enough for them. And in that respect, the orchestra as a whole actually
makes very little compromises. They don't have to, anyway, because they are
already in the focus of the music world and whatever is left of the
recording industry. Who they work with regularly is almost automatically a
"star". They are professional enough to know that in the long term they lose
much more than they gain -artistically and materially - when they make
compromises in the artistic quality.
This could be nicely seen in the actually surprising nomination of Abbado.
Back then, he was already "big", but far less glamorous and flashy than a
lot other conducting stars. A quiet guy who doesn't like to talk a lot and
grin into cameras. But many members realized that the last phases of the
Karajan era had seen a certain stagnation, and they were very willing to
explore new routes. It is quite impressive how open they were at that time
to work with artists who led directly into the other direction from the
K-style, Harnoncourt for instance.
The EMI recording contract doesn't really benefit the orchestra too much
because they had to give up the traditional separation of city-subsided
concert orchestra and private recording and touring organization which made
them a lot of extra cash. That was one of the demands Rattle had made. They
actually took a little dent in their paycheck but were still willing to make
that concession because they saw that Rattle was right in saying that they
had to be an example in times of dwindling support for cultural
instituations.
The reality is that Barenboim, who is known to behave like a terrible tsar
in the State Opera, would lick the floor of the Philharmonie if they told
him to. Which doesn't exactly make him a good candidate for a music
director.
In fact, I know that many orchestra members found it particularly important
to have a strong headed music director because it had been seen as a problem
that Abbado was a little passive and undecided. Rattle has shown in his
career that he is a man with ideas and convictions who has the patience for
long-term projects , other than Barenboim, who has to be everywhere,
anywhere, all the time.
I am not familiar with Savall's work BTW, but why wouldn't he have a chance
of getting an invitation for the BP? If he is good enough. They also work
with William Christie, for instance.

[David Hurwitz]

In article <05YCd.23842$Q%4.2193@fed1read06>, Michael Schaffer says...

>
>
>"josep" <josepv...@macmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:1104943455.3...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> That makes sense to me. Thank you!
>
>But not to me. Mr Hurwitz obviously has not many insights into the Berlin
>music scene. The "big ego" of the orchestra means that they think they are
>the greatest and therefore, only who they see as the greatest is just good
>enough for them. And in that respect, the orchestra as a whole actually
>makes very little compromises. They don't have to, anyway, because they are
>already in the focus of the music world and whatever is left of the
>recording industry. Who they work with regularly is almost automatically a
>"star". They are professional enough to know that in the long term they lose
>much more than they gain -artistically and materially - when they make
>compromises in the artistic quality.

I don't see how this changes my point. I never said otherwise, certainly not
that choosing Rattle was a "compromise." In fact, it was just the opposite: at
the time he was a bigger "star" than Barenboim in the European music scene.
Rattle was not a "compromise." He was the correct choice for what they wanted to
do commercially and artistically.

>The EMI recording contract doesn't really benefit the orchestra too much
>because they had to give up the traditional separation of city-subsided
>concert orchestra and private recording and touring organization which made
>them a lot of extra cash.

That I do not believe. The prestige of making recordings has always been a
critical concern for them, if only as a means of maintaining their (in my
opinion) grossly inflated stature on the international music scene.

>The reality is that Barenboim, who is known to behave like a terrible tsar
>in the State Opera, would lick the floor of the Philharmonie if they told
>him to. Which doesn't exactly make him a good candidate for a music
>director.

That may be YOUR reality, but I think that Mr. Barenboim would say otherwise. In
any event, you really have no basis for making that statement.

>other than Barenboim, who has to be everywhere,
>anywhere, all the time.

I believe I said that.

David Hurwitz

[alanwa...@aol.com]

I have never played for Mr B or the others but I doubt be would lick
the floor anywhere which may be is why he fell out of love with America
or they fell out of love with him?

If you want someone "who has to be everywhere, anywhere, all the time"
and who *might" lick the floor I would go for Mr Gergiev, personally,
although much lauded of course.

Mr Gergiev is what is known in the trade as an Empty Vessel, although
of course increasingly famous. But give him credit: he's one of the
few people to make old Rimsky-Korsakov's operas bland, which takes some
doing.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[pdu...@hotmail.com]

josep wrote:
> he's [Savall] unlikely to be proposed to conduct the Berlin Phil
> anyway.

Why not ? Both Christie and Harnoncourt have conducted it and probably
others from the HIP crowd as well.

PD

[Josep Vilanova]

>
> If you want someone "who has to be everywhere, anywhere, all the time"
> and who *might" lick the floor I would go for Mr Gergiev, personally,
> although much lauded of course.
>

Both of them seem to be everywhere anywhere. I just had a look at DB diary,
the one in his website www.danielbarenboim.com. I paste it below. I don't
know how anyone can manage with a schedule like that? I mean, do this big
orchestras ever rehearse? In March he is going to spend the first half of
the month conducting opera in Berlin, and then the CSO will come over and
he'll start a tour with Mahler 9, that has never conducted before. Is he
going to do all the rehearsals in Berlin, in the spare time between concerts
with the Staatskapelle? I can see the need for the BP to have a music
director able to commit himself to long term projects. And as far as I know
Gergiev is worse in that aspect. Are those people that short of money or is
just that they enjoy going up and down everyday?

josep

January 2005

6, 7,8,9,11
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Haydn: Symphony No. 86; Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 2 (Lang Lang);
Haydn: Symphony No. 99

13,14,15
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Haydn: Symphony No. 88; Ibert: Flute Concerto (Mathieu Dufour);
Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta

16
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
 
Chamber Music Program with Yo-Yo Ma

20,21,22,25
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Beethoven: Missa solemnis (Angela Denoke, Michelle DeYoung, Stephen
Gould, Alexander Vinogradov)

27,28,29 & Feb. 1
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Haydn: Symphony No. 1;Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 3 (Mitsuko
Uchida);Haydn: Symphony No. 104

 

February 2005

3,4
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO (Pierre Boulez)
Haydn: Symphony No. 95; Boulez: Notations for Orchestra; Bartók:
Piano Concerto No. 1

5
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Haydn: Symphony No. 95; Boulez: Notations for Orchestra; Ravel:
Mother Goose, Suite; Daphnis and Chloé, Suite No. 2

11
Aichi-ken Geijutsu Gekijo, Nagoya
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I);Beethoven: Sonata No. 32 op. 111

12
Fukuoka Symphony Hall, Fukuoka
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I); Beethoven: Sonata No. 32 op.
111

13
Suntory Hall, Tokyo
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I)

14
Bunka Kaikan, Tokyo
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I); Beethoven: Sonata No. 32 op.
111

15
Suntory Hall, Tokyo
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book II)

17
Suntory Hall, Tokyo
Staatskapelle
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 3;Schumann: Symphony No. 2

19
Suntory Hall, Tokyo
Staatskapelle
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 4; Schumann: Symphony No. 4 D minor,
op. 120

20
Suntory Hall, Tokyo
Staatskapelle
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 2; Mahler: Symphony No. 7

21
The Symphony Hall, Osaka
Staatskapelle
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 2; Mahler: Symphony No. 7

23
Kitara Hall, Sapporo
Staatskapelle
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 2; Mahler: Symphony No. 7

27
Philharmonie, Berlin
Staatskapelle
Knussen: Violin concerto (Pinchas Zukerman); Mahler: Symphony No. 7

28
Konzerthaus, Berlin
Staatskapelle
Knussen, Violin concerto (Pinchas Zukerman); Mahler: Symphony No. 7

 

March 2005

6,9,12
Staatsoper Under den Linden / Staatskapelle Berlin
Verdi: La traviata

19,28
Staatsoper Under den Linden / Staatskapelle Berlin
Wagner: Parsifal

20,23
Staatsoper Under den Linden / Staatskapelle Berlin
Bizet: Carmen

22
Philharmonie, Berlin
Thomas Quasthoff Liederabend: Schubert

24
Philharmonie, Berlin
CSO
Ravel: Ma Mère l'oye; Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 2 (Lang Lang);
Boulez: Notations;Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé- Suite No. 2

25
Philharmonie, Berlin
CSO (Pierre Boulez)
Bartók:Piano Concerto No. 1

26
Philharmonie, Berlin
CSO
Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 3 (Mitsuko Uchida); Mahler: Symphony No. 9
D major

27
Staatsoper Under den Linden / Staatskapelle Berlin
Staatskapelle
Boulez 80th Birthday Concert: Notations I-iV

30
Musikverein, Vienna
CSO
Mahler: Symphony No. 9 D major

31
National Philharmonic Hall, Budapest
CSO (Pierre Boulez)
Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 1

 

April 2005

1
National Philharmonic Hall, Budapest
CSO
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

3,4
Royal Festival Hall, London
CSO, CSO (Boulez)
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 1

5
Bridgewater Hall, Manchester
CSO
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

6
Symphony Hall, Birmingham
CSO
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

10
Concertgebouw, Amsterdam
 
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I)

11
Châtelet, Paris
 
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I)

13
Palau de la Musica, Barcelona
 
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I)

16,17
Barbican, London
LSO (Pappano)
Brahms: Piano Concertos Nos. 1 & 2

22
Musikverein, Vienna
 
Thomas Quasthoff Schubert: Die Winterreise

23,24
Musikverein, Vienna
Vienna Philharmonic
Boulez: Messagesquisse ;Notations I-III & VII ; Beethoven: Symphony
No. 3

26
Musikverein, Vienna
Vienna Philharmonic
Boulez: Messagesquisse ;Mémorial;
Beethoven: Symphony No. 3

 

May 2005

1
Barbican, London
 
Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier (Book I)

5,6,7
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Schnittke: Concerti grossi Nos. 5 & 6 (Kremer)
Beethoven: Symphony No. 7

10
Kennedy Center, Washington DC
CSO
Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23, K. 488
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

11
Kimmel Center, Philadelphia
CSO
Program to be confirmed

13
Carnegie Hall, New York City
CSO
Bach: Orchestral Suite No. 2 (Dufour)
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

14
Carnegie Hall, New York City
CSO (Boulez)
Bartók: Four Orchestral Pieces
Bartók: Piano Concerto No. 1 (Barenboim)
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra

15
Carnegie Hall, New York City
CSO
Wagner: Parsifal Prelude
Boulez: Notations
Beethoven: Symphony No. 7

16
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO (Boulez)
Berg: Chamber Concerto
(Zukerman)

19,20,21
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Salieri: Variations on La Folia di Spagna
Carter: Boston Concerto
Beethoven: Violin Concerto (Robert Chen)

24
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO (Levine)
Brahms: Piano concerto No. 2

26,27,28
Orchestra Hall, Chicago
CSO
Mahler: Songs of a Wayfarer (Anna Larsson);
Bruckner: Symphony No. 9

 

June 2005

4,5
Konzerthaus, Vienna
Vienna Philharmonic (Boulez)
Schönberg: Piano Concerto op. 42

7
Konzerthaus, Vienna
 
Bach: Well Tempered Clavier (Book 1)

10,11,12
Musikverein, Vienna
Vienna Philharmonic (Mehta)
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2

13
Champs-Elysées, Paris
Vienna Philharmonic (Mehta)
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2

17,19,21,26,29
Staatsoper Under den Linden / Staatskapelle Berlin
 
Beethoven: Sonatas Cycle

 
 
 
 

[Michael Schaffer]

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:114959848.0...@drn.newsguy.com...

I do. My basis is that I grew up in the Berlin music scene and know a lot of
things that you normally don't read in glossy music magazines. It is a very
well known fact, related to me by several orchestra members, that B behaves
almost submissively with the BP while in other places, he can be a real
tyrant.

[David Hurwitz]

In article <wK1Dd.23980$Q%4.21613@fed1read06>, Michael Schaffer says...

>
>
>I do. My basis is that I grew up in the Berlin music scene and know a lot of
>things that you normally don't read in glossy music magazines. It is a very
>well known fact, related to me by several orchestra members, that B behaves
>almost submissively with the BP while in other places, he can be a real
>tyrant.
>
>

That's nice. And I've worked in this business for 20 years and know all of the
artists involved personally, plus the management of the Berlin Phil through my
German partners. Barenboim's "submissiveness" was not a factor in the
orchestra's decision. The failure of his Bruckner cycle for Teldec and
questionable status as a recording artist, on the other hand, combined with his
commitments elsewhere, certainly were.

David Hurwitz

[Michael Schaffer]

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:114981114.0...@drn.newsguy.com...

Maybe, but that doesn't count. Remember you are only a critic. You don't get
a lot of real inside insights (and couldn't understand them anyway), unless
you work in a musical scene as a musician. No, David, working in a CD store
doesn't count, either.

[Victor Martell]

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:114981114.0...@drn.newsguy.com...

>> orchestra's decision. The failure of his Bruckner cycle for Teldec and
> questionable status as a recording artist, on the other hand, combined
> with his

Commercial failure, right?

Hope so - I believe it is a great cycle - I found his 7th specially moving.

I just realized that Sir Simon has a BP Faust Symphony (Liszt) just like
our hero - DB, of course! :-).

How do they compare? I have the DB version and like it - the only other
version I have is Lenny's which I like just a tad less and Masur's, which I
find extremely cold...

V

[David Hurwitz]

In article <zi3Dd.24031$Q%4.4983@fed1read06>, Michael Schaffer says...

>
>
>Maybe, but that doesn't count. Remember you are only a critic. You don't get
>a lot of real inside insights (and couldn't understand them anyway), unless
>you work in a musical scene as a musician. No, David, working in a CD store
>doesn't count, either.
>

The foolishness of that statement rather speaks for itself, I think.

Dave Hurwitz

[Michael Schaffer]

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:114989314.0...@drn.newsguy.com...

I didn't mean to offend you. I know that as a professional critic, you think
you know what's going on, but you don't. If you did, you weren't a critic
which is basically just a parasitical occupation in the music business. But
there are a lot of things going on you don't understand unless you are in
the scene and get to know people over a long time, then you get a lot of
insights and info (some of it gossip, of course, some of it very solid)
about what's really going on.
Even if you know people in the BP management, they would never discuss stuff
like that with you. They aren't the ones who make that decision anyway. But
if you know and work with musicians, then you get an idea of the very
complex mechanisms behind the scenery.

[Michael Schaffer]

"Victor Martell" <No...@nowhere.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Qa4Dd.16989$Y57.891@trnddc08...

I never heard either CDs, but I did hear Sir Simon's live performances at
which, I believe, the EMI disc was recorded. It was an interpretation which
concentrated very much on the lyrical elements of the score, especially in
the Gretchen part. In Faust, he concentrated again more on the dark,
mysterious and I felt the agitated passages were a little too restraint. In
this movement I find Solti's (with the CSO) manic drivenness, which can
destroy a lot of nice music, very apt. The only other recording I presently
own is Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden. His Faust is not as driven
as Solti's, but still pretty dramatic, while the Gretchen movement is
(predictably played) exquisitely lyrically by the SD. The Mephisto is really
extraordinary though, very demonic, intangible, elusive. I watched the
Bernstein performance a long time ago on TV, and I was very impresssed, but
don't remember too many details about the performance. I guess I will check
it out on CD sonner or later. As a student, I played often in the orchestra
and hall by which and where the symphony was first performed, in Weimar.
Although the theatre was unfortunately insensitively remodelled inside, I
know what it used to look like from pictures. When I hear the symphony, I
often imagine what it must have been like to be there during the premiere.

[Van Eyes]

"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:5AeCd.362059$0f.1...@charlie.risq.qc.ca

> See the following article:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6fy2p

Rattle p.r., of no consequence.

Regards

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Van Eyes]

"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@macmail.com> wrote in message
news:BDFF1275.1221B%josepv...@macmail.com

> I never liked Rattle (mostly since I paid £150 to see him butchering a

> Parsifal in the Royal Opera House in London).

Me neither, for the most part. Fortunately, I've just shelled out for
the occasional previously-enjoyed recording, ranging from $5.99 to $7.99
CAD.

>I always had an strong admiration to Barenboim though.

Me, too. I'm sorry he didn't get the BPO job, but atleast he was able to
record with them for a while (note the fine Bruckner cycle).

Now that Rattle has been the main conductor
> (or whatever his title is) of the Berlin Philarmonic for a while, what is
> the general view of him there? Do people consider him worthy to have that
> post? Do people consider him a waste of time, a mistake taken by the members
> of that orchestra in a moment of collective delusion? Do they think that
> Barenboim would have been a much better candidate? Do they consider Rattle a
> worthy successor of Furtwangler, Karajan and Abbado?

I can't help but think Sir Rattle would've done better in Philly or NY.
IMO he's been mostly another bomb for Berlin.

[David Hurwitz]

In article <2M7Dd.24044$Q%4.12223@fed1read06>, Michael Schaffer says...

>
>
>I didn't mean to offend you. I know that as a professional critic, you think
>you know what's going on, but you don't. If you did, you weren't a critic
>which is basically just a parasitical occupation in the music business.

Hmmm. For someone who doesn't mean to be offensive you do a good job. For the
record, a "critic" is an educator. If you believe that to be parasitical, then
that's fine, but it is not my understanding that's in question.

But
>there are a lot of things going on you don't understand unless you are in
>the scene and get to know people over a long time, then you get a lot of
>insights and info (some of it gossip, of course, some of it very solid)
>about what's really going on.
>Even if you know people in the BP management, they would never discuss stuff
>like that with you. They aren't the ones who make that decision anyway. But
>if you know and work with musicians, then you get an idea of the very
>complex mechanisms behind the scenery.
>

The more you talk, the sillier you sound. You have absolutely no idea what
anyone would or would not discuss with me, nor has it ever occured to you that
aside from my professional life I also have friends, colleagues, and
relationships of long-standing in which views are exchanges with great honesty
and openness. But enough of this.

David Hurwitz

[Tom Deacon]

On 1/6/05 11:31 AM, in article 115029086.0...@drn.newsguy.com,
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

> For the record, a "critic" is an educator.

Now THERE is a subject for discussion.

TD

[Gareth Williams]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:24:53 +0000, Van Eyes wrote:

> I can't help but think Sir Rattle ...

It's Sir *Simon*, by the way. The surname is never used on its own after
"Sir". Once Sir Simon (inevitably) gets a peerage it will be fine to call
him "Lord Rattle", if he chooses the title "Lord Rattle of Liverpool" or
such-like.

--
Regards,
Gareth Williams

[Stephen Worth]

In article <BE02EA96.8033%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com>, Tom Deacon
<deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:

A curmudgeon is an educator. He taught me how to spell it!

See ya
Steve

--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/

[abac...@att.net]

Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <BE02EA96.8033%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com>, Tom Deacon
> <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/6/05 11:31 AM, in article
115029086.0...@drn.newsguy.com,
> > "David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > For the record, a "critic" is an educator.
> >
> > Now THERE is a subject for discussion.
> >
> > TD
> >
>
> A curmudgeon is an educator. He taught me how to spell it!
>
> See ya
> Steve

did he teach you the MEANING of the word :-)
AB

[Simon Roberts]

In article <pan.2005.01.06...@nospam.com>, Gareth Williams says...

Foreigners seldom get it right. Adrian Boult was once amused to be called "Sir
Boult" by Evelyn Lear and made a funny reply, which I've naturally forgotten;
perhaps the Timpanist in Residence knows....

Simon

[Stephen Worth]

In article <1105040612....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
<abac...@att.net> wrote:

> did he teach you the MEANING of the word

In the most effective way... by example.

See ya
Steve

[alanwa...@aol.com]

There are several versions of this anecdote. My favourite is that he
replied: "This is one of the problems of the English language. I may
call you Madam Lear but you should say Sir Adrian but even Sir Boult is
preferable to Maestro as that confuses me with members of the
orchestra."

Incidentally, he had exactly the same problem on the BBC Symphony tour
of Russia.

And, as he once told me, Sarah Nelson, a wonderful cellist who won many
competitions but got few engagements did substantially better after
changing her name to Zara Nelsova. She died fairly recently, I think.
Boult rated her greatly as a cellist.

What's in a name? :):)

By the way Boult NEVER used the "Sir" on either his headed paper or on
any signature that I know. It was always "Adrian C Boult" in that
lovely flowing, large hand. A flamboyant signature from someone who
was a lot more flamboyant than people give him credit for (if
signatures give away such things) as may, perhaps, be heard in his
recordings of Berlioz overtures and in particular Le Corsair.

[Van Eyes]

"alanwatkinsuk" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1105047869.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

> There are several versions of this anecdote. My favourite is that he
> replied: "This is one of the problems of the English language. I may
> call you Madam Lear but you should say Sir Adrian but even Sir Boult is
> preferable to Maestro as that confuses me with members of the
> orchestra."

For those interested, a bio for "Kammersängerin" Lear...

http://www.iclassics.com/artistBio?contentId=529

[Michael Schaffer]

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:115029086.0...@drn.newsguy.com...

> In article <2M7Dd.24044$Q%4.12223@fed1read06>, Michael Schaffer says...
> >
> >
> >I didn't mean to offend you. I know that as a professional critic, you
think
> >you know what's going on, but you don't. If you did, you weren't a critic
> >which is basically just a parasitical occupation in the music business.
>
> Hmmm. For someone who doesn't mean to be offensive you do a good job. For
the
> record, a "critic" is an educator. If you believe that to be parasitical,
then
> that's fine, but it is not my understanding that's in question.

What is your basis for educating other people about music? Your website
gives grades from 1-10 which I personally find very annoying as I don't
think one can grade artistic performance precisely (nor sound quality). But
it's probably what's needed in today's quick and simple consumer world. But
it is not educating at all. Especially your reviews aren't because they
rarely discuss the interpretation, but just describe it and then declare a
verdict because you apparently know all the answers to interpretative
questions. You are not really educating at all, just giving people who don't
know much about music strongly worded superficial opinions to echo.
Anyway, what qualifies you to grade artists? I read some of your reviews.
They are often very condescending in tone, like you knew exactly what the
right answers to every artistic question is, but the people you are writing
about basically missed your class about tempo relations in Bruckner
movements and therefore deserve a lower grade.

> But
> >there are a lot of things going on you don't understand unless you are in
> >the scene and get to know people over a long time, then you get a lot of
> >insights and info (some of it gossip, of course, some of it very solid)
> >about what's really going on.
> >Even if you know people in the BP management, they would never discuss
stuff
> >like that with you. They aren't the ones who make that decision anyway.
But
> >if you know and work with musicians, then you get an idea of the very
> >complex mechanisms behind the scenery.
> >
>
> The more you talk, the sillier you sound. You have absolutely no idea what
> anyone would or would not discuss with me, nor has it ever occured to you
that
> aside from my professional life I also have friends, colleagues, and
> relationships of long-standing in which views are exchanges with great
honesty
> and openness. But enough of this.

Well, I can simply tell from what you wrote that you don't know much about
what is going on behind the scenes. What you wrote is just what everyone
with superficial insights would think is self-evident and also simplistic
enough to look good on the page.

> David Hurwitz
>

[Michael Schaffer]

"Gareth Williams" <gar...@nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:pan.2005.01.06...@nospam.com...

Note this is the third BP principal conductor with a nobility title.
Although HvK's was more an artist's name. His family used to be von Karajan,
but in 1918 after the war and the collapse of the Empire, Austria abolished
nobility titles. So in his passport it likely said just Herbert Karajan.

> --
> Regards,
> Gareth Williams
>

[Gareth Williams]

Bet he was never addressed as "Herr Herbert", rather "Herr (von) Karajan".
Such protocols are reserved only for Frodo Baggins and any one of several
Basil Brush co-presenters.

--
Regards,
Gareth Williams

[Michael Schaffer]

"Gareth Williams" <gar...@nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:pan.2005.01.07....@nospam.com...

True. He was usually referred to as "Herr von Karajan" in respectful
circles, and as "Herbert von" in more casual company. Technically "correct"
would have been just "Herr Karajan", but since he chose to retain the "von"
as part of his artist's name, that's OK. Besides, in Germany where there is
no technically no nobility anymore either, people are allowed to officially
keep the "von" in their name, so most people don't even know that there is
no "von" in Austrian names anymore. The Austrians who know that on the other
hand, are so fascinated by titles that they usually ignore this reality
anyway.

[Paul Goodman]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 00:55:21 +0000 (UTC), Josep Vilanova
<josepv...@macmail.com> wrote:

>Both of them seem to be everywhere anywhere. I just had a look at DB diary,
>the one in his website www.danielbarenboim.com. I paste it below. I don't
>know how anyone can manage with a schedule like that? I mean, do this big
>orchestras ever rehearse? In March he is going to spend the first half of
>the month conducting opera in Berlin, and then the CSO will come over and
>he'll start a tour with Mahler 9, that has never conducted before.

He conducted Mahler 9 with the CSO last season.

--
Paul Goodman
prg...@qtm.net
good...@comcast.net

[josep]

I wasn't aware that Barenboim already conducted Mahler 9. How was it? I
have tickets to see him in London conducting this symphony, plus the
two brahms concerti and playing the WTC. I'm a proper fan, you see.
josep

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Michael Schaffer" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:ctmDd.24608$Q%4.4347@fed1read06:

Didn't he petition the government to restore his "von"?

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

[Matthew B. Tepper]

alanwa...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:1105047869.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> And, as he once told me, Sarah Nelson, a wonderful cellist who won many
> competitions but got few engagements did substantially better after
> changing her name to Zara Nelsova. She died fairly recently, I think.
> Boult rated her greatly as a cellist.
>
> What's in a name? :):)

I imagine Louise Hickenlooper must have wondered about that too.

[Paul Goodman]

On 7 Jan 2005 08:43:46 -0800, "josep" <josepv...@macmail.com>
wrote:

I thought it was an outstanding performance. He took the third
movement faster than any that I have heard before, but it hung
together really well, was exciting, and it even got some applause
from the audience when it was done. The tempo and mood of the 4th
movement was just as I like it; not extremely slow, but very
emotional.

If the performance you see is anything like I heard, I think you will
be pleased.

[Derek Haslam]

In article <crk50...@drn.newsguy.com>, Simon Roberts

<sd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Foreigners seldom get it right. Adrian Boult was once
> amused to be called "Sir Boult" by Evelyn Lear and made a
> funny reply, which I've naturally forgotten; perhaps the
> Timpanist in Residence knows....

This sort of mistake occurs even oftener with Dames - the
Brits themselves are often guilty of referring to (for
example) "Dame Baker". "Dame" is used in the same way as
"Sir", so it should be "Dame Janet".

Derek Haslam

--

__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.

[Michael Schaffer]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Xns95D77DE66CF...@207.217.125.201...

> "Michael Schaffer" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:ctmDd.24608$Q%4.4347@fed1read06:
>
> > "Gareth Williams" <gar...@nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:pan.2005.01.06...@nospam.com...
> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:24:53 +0000, Van Eyes wrote:
> >>
> >> > I can't help but think Sir Rattle ...
> >>
> >> It's Sir *Simon*, by the way. The surname is never used on its own
> >> after "Sir". Once Sir Simon (inevitably) gets a peerage it will be fine
> >> to call him "Lord Rattle", if he chooses the title "Lord Rattle of
> >> Liverpool" or such-like.
> >
> > Note this is the third BP principal conductor with a nobility title.
> > Although HvK's was more an artist's name. His family used to be von
> > Karajan, but in 1918 after the war and the collapse of the Empire,
> > Austria abolished nobility titles. So in his passport it likely said
> > just Herbert Karajan.
>
> Didn't he petition the government to restore his "von"?

Don't know. He didn't really have to. After all, he was born as "von" and if
he felt he still needed it later, nobody could stop him from including it in
his name as an artist's name. I don't know if it said "Bruno Walter" or
"Bruno Schlesinger" in BW's passport, what does it matter? If you wanted to,
you could also call yourself Matthieu de la Teppér.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Michael Schaffer" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the

following letters to be typed in news:bZFDd.24913$Q%4.11559@fed1read06:

> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:Xns95D77DE66CF...@207.217.125.201...
>> "Michael Schaffer" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in news:ctmDd.24608$Q%4.4347@fed1read06:
>>
>> > "Gareth Williams" <gar...@nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> > news:pan.2005.01.06...@nospam.com...
>> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:24:53 +0000, Van Eyes wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I can't help but think Sir Rattle ...
>> >>
>> >> It's Sir *Simon*, by the way. The surname is never used on its own
>> >> after "Sir". Once Sir Simon (inevitably) gets a peerage it will be
>> >> fine to call him "Lord Rattle", if he chooses the title "Lord Rattle
>> >> of Liverpool" or such-like.
>> >
>> > Note this is the third BP principal conductor with a nobility title.
>> > Although HvK's was more an artist's name. His family used to be von
>> > Karajan, but in 1918 after the war and the collapse of the Empire,
>> > Austria abolished nobility titles. So in his passport it likely said
>> > just Herbert Karajan.
>>
>> Didn't he petition the government to restore his "von"?
>
> Don't know. He didn't really have to. After all, he was born as "von"
> and if he felt he still needed it later, nobody could stop him from
> including it in his name as an artist's name. I don't know if it said
> "Bruno Walter" or "Bruno Schlesinger" in BW's passport, what does it
> matter? If you wanted to, you could also call yourself Matthieu de la
> Teppér.

Bleah! I think I'll leave my name just the way it is (although I have a
contingency plan in the event of world war and major disaster). I meant
that I heard that Karajan pled to the courts to allow him to keep the
"von" legally, in whatever sense that would have meant.

[Michael Schaffer]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:Xns95D7B22FAFB...@207.217.125.201...

I think I heard that too, and that they allowed him to keep the von as aprt
of his artist's name. But I am not sure, because I don't have enough storage
space in my brain, so I usually delete irrelevant data like this.

[Josep Vilanova]

.

>
> If the performance you see is anything like I heard, I think you will
> be pleased.

Thank you! :-)

[gggg gggg]

On Monday, January 3, 2005 at 7:17:13 AM UTC-8, Josep Vilanova wrote:
> I never liked Rattle (mostly since I paid £150 to see him butchering a
> Parsifal in the Royal Opera House in London). I always had an strong
> admiration to Barenboim though. Now that Rattle has been the main conductor
> (or whatever his title is) of the Berlin Philarmonic for a while, what is
> the general view of him there? Do people consider him worthy to have that
> post? Do people consider him a waste of time, a mistake taken by the members
> of that orchestra in a moment of collective delusion? Do they think that
> Barenboim would have been a much better candidate? Do they consider Rattle a
> worthy successor of Furtwangler, Karajan and Abbado?
> josep

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/humanities.music.composers.wagner/c/wdiopOqm_f8

[Herman]

Reading this topic, some time after Rattle's tenure at Berlin ended, one wonders again, especially at the posters who seem to think they are better judges of who should have gotten the BPO job, Rattle or Barenboim than the BPO orchestra members.
And this included crazy squeak Hurwitz who thinks the orchestra would base its decision on how critics like him talked about Barenboim's Bruckner cycle with the BPO.
Obviously an orchestra thinks about other things: how is working every day with mr X or Y going to be, where is he going with the orchestra culture and character, what kind of music are we going to perform with him and how will we connect with Berlin, Germany and the world in the future?
Orchestras frigging hate making records.

[gggg gggg]

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/fZx4xhgUfx4/m/C5NOa-_nCQAJ