St. John's Passion by JS Bach
Alain Dagher
I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
What do you think of this piece?
What are your favourite parts?
What are your favourite recordings?
ad
Paul Kintzele
> What do you think of this piece?
It's wonderful, intense, moving.
> What are your favourite parts?
Opening chorus and the aria "Ich folge dir gleichfalls."
> What are your favourite recordings?
Only have one--Harnoncourt's. I like it. Angela Maria Blasi's singing
of the above aria is particularly fine. I once had an opportunity under
less than ideal conditions to hear Gardiner's, and at the time I thought
that it wasn't as warmly dramatic or tellingly characterized as
Harnoncourt's. But I do want to give it another chance sometime.
Paul
Simon Smith
> Alain Dagher wrote:
>
> > What do you think of this piece?
>
> It's wonderful, intense, moving.
What he said. And I much prefer it to St Matthew. It's definitely a contender
for my "Greatest Piece Ever" award.
> > What are your favourite parts?
>
> Opening chorus and the aria "Ich folge dir gleichfalls."
There are just so many. The opening chorus is wonderful. I have a soft spot
for the chorale "Wer hat so dich geschlagen". The "Kreuzige" chorus is great
fun to sing! Actually it's all fantastic, with the exception of that mildly
interminable 12/8 aria somewhere in the middle.
> > What are your favourite recordings?
>
> Only have one--Harnoncourt's. I like it. Angela Maria Blasi's singing
> of the above aria is particularly fine. I once had an opportunity under
> less than ideal conditions to hear Gardiner's, and at the time I thought
> that it wasn't as warmly dramatic or tellingly characterized as
> Harnoncourt's. But I do want to give it another chance sometime.
I too only have one Harnoncourt's recording, and I enjoy it very much. I've
not felt any particular need to hunt out other recordings (yet), though if
this thread provokes a number of recommendations I might have to try some of
them out.
--
Simon Smith "I am myself only in music. Music is enough
http://www.ingemisco.com for a whole lifetime - but a lifetime is not
enough for music." (Sergei Rachmaninov)
Johannes Roehl
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
It's great, but for some reason I like it far less than the St Matthew
(I don't know it as well either, but I am not sure what is cause and
what effect, but I tend to blame the comarale coldness of reaction on my
lack of familiarity)
> What are your favourite parts?
The alto aria "Es ist vollbracht" and some of the turbae
> What are your favourite recordings?
Harnoncourt's is the only one I know well (His Jesus and also the
evangelist could certainly be improved on (Rolfe Johnson is good, but he
is neither Pregardien nor Equiluz nor Schreier...), but the whole thing
is quite dramatically done and the women singers are very good); I also
have one on Capriccio (Max?), because I though it included a different
version, but IIRC it doesn't and recently acquired a historical one from
Leipzig (Ramin conducting, Haeflinger, evangelist), but I haven't really
listened to them properly yet.
Johannes
Joachim Pense
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
>
I sang it sometimes many years ago when I was a boy soprano in a choir, so"R
personal sentiments are not easily separable from the greatness of the work
itself.
> What are your favourite parts?
Opening Chorus.
"Oh große Lieb oh Lieb ohn alle Maßen"
"Ruht wohl"
>
> What are your favourite recordings?
>
Just bought Herreweghe.
Joachim
Miguel Montfort
> What are your favourite recordings?
Masaaki Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan - BIS CD-921/922
(Karl Forster - on EMI 7 64234 2 - if only for
Wunderlich's Evangelist alone...)
Miguel Montfort
Jan Hoving
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> schreef in bericht
news:XO0rd.250209$0f.2...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
I have no favourite parts, I like the whole piece. My favourite recordings
are Parrott's and Britten's.
JH
Paul Ilechko
>>>What are your favourite recordings?
>>
>>Only have one--Harnoncourt's. I like it. Angela Maria Blasi's singing
>>of the above aria is particularly fine. I once had an opportunity under
>>less than ideal conditions to hear Gardiner's, and at the time I thought
>>that it wasn't as warmly dramatic or tellingly characterized as
>>Harnoncourt's. But I do want to give it another chance sometime.
>
>
> I too only have one Harnoncourt's recording, and I enjoy it very much. I've
> not felt any particular need to hunt out other recordings (yet), though if
> this thread provokes a number of recommendations I might have to try some of
> them out.
>
I really like Gardiner - the choruses are particularly wonderful, and he
has a good set of soloists. It has quick tempos, which I like in the
Passions - they can drag otherwise, which is a problem I find with
Herreweghe's Matthew.
Dana Hill
dein lieb Engelein", but I also especially like "Eilt, ihr angeforchtnen
Seele" for bass and chorus.
I have the Richter and Gardiner and one or two others I can't remember off
hand, and I haven't updated my database in ages. But, in all, I think I
still like the Gardiner the best.
--
Dana Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Photography: www.danajohnhill.com
Personal: www.danajohnhill.org
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:XO0rd.250209$0f.2...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
Richard Bernas
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
march through the story rather than the expansive procession of the
St. Matthew. Knowing that well, it took me a while to get used to
JSB's more dramatic treatment in the St. John, but it's definitely
worth the time.
>
> What are your favourite parts?
bass arias
>
> What are your favourite recordings?
instrumental timbres and chamber music scale
Schreier (Philips) for headlong dramatic intensity and absolutely
great choral work (Leipzig Radio)
Rilling's last (Hanssler) and Foster's 1950s (EMI) recordings are very
well sung (Foster boasts Grummer, Ludwig, Wunderlich and DFD) and what
I've heard of the latest Naxos with the Oxford New College Choir and
alumni soloists including James Bowman sounded first rate.
Richard
Chuck Klaus
What are your favourite parts?
What are your favourite recordings?
It's a magnificent choral work, even if it does not contain drama and
charecterization at the same level of the St. Matthew.(Had it been
composed by Telemann, his stock would have risen tremendously, and the
work would probably be given more performances...)
There are so many marvels in this score. The first Chorus always
knocks me out, I enjoy the somewhat flippant first soprano item, the
first bass and choral item, the alto air as the ghost is given up,
etc. So many gems within.
Some of my favorite recordings include Harnoncourt's stark reading on
Teldec; the Berlin Classic vintage account piloted by Ramin with some
very good 1950's German soloists; and three special favorites: Blanche
Moyse's wonderfully large-scale and emotionally penetrating account
with her Chorale and the New England Bach Festival Orchestra; the
exciting, gripping English verion of the score produced by the
Cleveland Baroque orchestra conducted by Jeannette Sorrallon on
Eclectra; and an old favorite with great drive, the Vienna Academy
Chorus & Vienna State Opera Orchestra aacount conducted by Hermann
Scherchen.
You've inspired me to do some listening along these lines.
Regards,
Chuck Klaus
Simon Roberts
>
>Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
>I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
>What do you think of this piece?
Since it's hard to give a response that doesn't sound banal, I'll pass.
>What are your favourite parts?
Hard to have favorites in a score like this; the opening and closing choruses,
the alto arias and.... But when I get/encounter a new recording I always head
for the recitative/chorus section usually given the number 18; especially to see
how the Evangelist copes with the difficult florid music given the word
"geisselte." (If memory serves, Pergardien and Wunderlich handle it best;
perhaps Equiluz as well.)
>What are your favourite recordings?
I like quite a few. At the head of the list would be Harnoncourt, Herreweghe
II, and Max, followed by Rilling/Hanssler, Corboz (for some of his soloists, esp
Equiluz), Lehel (for Kalmar and Reti), Forster (for Wunderlich, Grummer and
Ludwig), Gonnenwein (for Crass, Fassbaender and Equiluz), and Kroper (for his
insane interpretation of the opening chorus;he claims it's "really" a Gloria and
takes it twice as fast as anyone else). (I've kept several others, including
Suzuki, Fasolis, Dombrecht and Sorrell, but I can't remember anything about them
off-hand.)
Simon
Vincent Ventrone
> What do you think of this piece?
It took me awhile to warm up to it but now it's probably my favorite Bach
choral piece -- very dramatic & moving.
> What are your favourite parts?
Probably the opening chorus -- really sets the pulse racing...
> What are your favourite recordings?
I've only heard one recording -- Scherchen's, the one I own -- but have
attended several live performnaces. I like the Scherchen recording so much
that I haven't felt a need to seek out others...
William Sommerwerck
experienced the passion, not John.
Alain Dagher
I only have Herreweghe's recent recording, which lacks the opening
chorus everyone seems to like. I think he uses a different version of
the score.
Will have to get another ...
ad
Joachim Pense
> I hate to be picky, but it's the passion according to St. John. Christ
> Jesus experienced the passion, not John.
Well it is generally known as the Johannespassion.
Joachim
William Sommerwerck
>> I hate to be picky, but it's the passion according to St. John.
>> Christ Jesus experienced the passion, not John.
> Well, it is generally known as the Johannespassion.
Correct, but in English, there is a distinct difference between "St. John's
Passion" and "the St. John Passion."
Johan van Veen
>
> I only have Herreweghe's recent recording, which lacks the opening
> chorus everyone seems to like. I think he uses a different version of
> the score.
>
That is right: Herreweghe has recorded the (second) version of 1725. Not
only does it start with the chorale 'O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde gross',
but also has some arias which are replacing arias from the first version
of 1724, which is mostly recorded. And the closing chorale is also
replaced by another one. It certainly makes sense to have another
recording with the version of 1724.
--
Johan van Veen
jvv...@wanadoo.nl
Paul Ilechko
And some other pedants probably care.
David7Gable
>What do you think of this piece?
Schumann thought it was even better than the St. Matthew. I probably prefer
the St. Matthew, but they're both full of the kind of extraordinary things
you'd expect from the all mighty Bach at the height of his powers.
>What are your favourite parts?
The deliberately "oppressive," dense and unremitting opening chorus. The alto
solo "Es ist vollbracht." The moving final chorus "Ruht wohl," which is cut
from cloth similar in mood to the final chorus of the St. Matthew's. (I don't
mean the final chorale following "Ruht wohl."
>What are your favourite recordings?
Not Gardiner or Herreweghe or Harnoncourt 2. I do like the performance of "Es
ist vollbracht" from the first Harnoncourt recording. Terrific boy alto.
-david gable
Philip Peters
I agree with most of these (but who is *Lehel* or, for that matter,
*Kroper*? Can you tell me some more about them?) and I would like to add
a vote for Kuijken.
Philip
>
JJ
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on
> deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
One of my very favorite pieces. A work of extraordinary drama and
concentration and deeply moving in performance.
> What are your favourite parts?
The bass aria "Mein Teurer Heiland" with the background chorus (I think one
of the most beautiful things Bach ever wrote), and also the finale chorale
(following "Ruht Wohl"), which in live performance is overwhelming.
>
> What are your favourite recordings?
There are lots of excellent performances, but not one that I find
exceptional. I would recommend the Harnoncourt that others have mentioned,
the Britten for John Shirley-Quirk, the Forster amongst older recording, and
the Schreier (prejudiced because I was in the chorus of a performance which
he conducted and sang the Evangelist).
Jon
Raymond Hall
news:20041130182038...@mb-m06.aol.com...
I've got Cleobury, who hasn't been mentioned yet. I enjoy it immensely, amd
as you say the music is mostly premium Bach. In other words, great music.
Much is memorable including the opening chorus, and many of the arias, the
Chorales: Ach Herr, lass dein lieb Engeln, O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross,
the succeeding Aria, Zerschmettert mich, and the final Chorale: Christe, du
Lamm Gottes.
Btw: the last three sections are part of an 1725 Version Appendix, but don't
know the details. Ainsley (Evangelist), Richardson (Jesus), Bott, Chance,
Agnew and Varcoe (bass) are the soloists. From the "Passions" Brilliant box
including St. Matthew, St. Mark and St. Luke.
I haven't got a HIP version yet David. I believe you quite like the
Harnoncourt I?
<tic>
Ray H
Taree
George Murnu
news:XO0rd.250209$0f.2...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
I think is great.
>
> What are your favourite parts?
All of them.
>
> What are your favourite recordings?
By far Karl Forster with the divine Wunderlich - and get as a bonus
Elisabeth Grummer, Christa Ludwig, and Fi-Di at his best.
Regards,
George
>
> ad
>
Thomas Wood
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:XO0rd.250209$0f.2...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
It's a Bach Passion, hence one of the pinnacles of Western music.
My favorite parts include the opening chorus, with those churning strings
and aching oboes. I also look forward to the tenor aria "Ach, mein Sinn" and
the bass arioso with lute "Betrachte, mein Seel." Yes, the following long
tenor aria wears out its welcome, as does "Es ist vollbracht," but the
soprano aria "Zerfliesse, mein Herze," with its other-worldly winds without
strings, does not.
I have to admit I particularly enjoy the turbae choruses, especially "Lasset
uns den nicht zerteilen."
For years the only recording I had was Harnoncourt's (on LP), which I never
really warmed up to. Gardiner's is taut and dramatic (more so than his St.
Matthew Passion), and it's the one I listen to most these days. I also have
Herreweghe I, which has some nice choral singing but is overall too watery.
The Latin word "passio" means "suffering" -- suffering shouldn't be as
polite and pretty as Herreweghe sometimes makes it.
Tom Wood
Gerrit Stolte
> I hate to be picky, but it's the passion according to St. John. Christ Jesus
> experienced the passion, not John.
Well, if you want to be pricky, you shouldn't have added the 2nd sentence.
How do you know that Jesus experienced the passion? Books written decades
later, stories based on those books, movies based on those stories based on
those books? Lotsa speculation and not a strong basis for being pricky.
--
Regards,
Gerrit
"I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours, but I think that God's got
a sick sense of humor, and when I die I expect to find him laughing."
(M. L. Gore/Depeche Mode)
Johannes Roehl
As you say they are not parts of the most common version. "Ach Herr laß
dein lieb Engelein" is a chorale after the "final" chorus in the
standard version and "O Mensch, bewein" was re-used in the St. Matthew
as final chorus of the first part.
I really have to get a recording of the 1725 version. I bough Max's on
Cappriccio, because it said something about a revised (1749?) version on
the cover, but there are only very minor differences to the "standard"
version.
Johannes
Gerrit Stolte
> As you say they are not parts of the most common version. "Ach Herr laß
> dein lieb Engelein" is a chorale after the "final" chorus in the
> standard version and "O Mensch, bewein" was re-used in the St. Matthew
> as final chorus of the first part.
>
> I really have to get a recording of the 1725 version.
Get Herreweghe's. Excellent choir singing, at least to my untrained ears.
FWIW, I liked those 1725 passages best.
Regards,
--
Gerrit
"In Deutschland gilt derjenige als viel gefährlicher, der auf den Schmutz
hinweist als der, der ihn gemacht hat." (Carl von Ossietzky, 1889-1938)
William D. Kasimer
> I really have to get a recording of the 1725 version.
I don't have them handy to check, but I'm fairly certain that both the
Slowik (Smithsonian) and Rilling (Hanssler) include the 1725 additions
as addenda.
Bill
Simon Roberts
>I only have Herreweghe's recent recording, which lacks the opening
>chorus everyone seems to like. I think he uses a different version of
>the score.
As do Neumann and one or two others.
>
>Will have to get another ...
Some recordings provide appendices including the variants; the Rilling I
mentioned is one such, requiring an extra disc to do so.
Simon
Simon Roberts
says...
>I've got Cleobury, who hasn't been mentioned yet. I enjoy it immensely, amd
>as you say the music is mostly premium Bach. In other words, great music.
>Much is memorable including the opening chorus, and many of the arias, the
>Chorales: Ach Herr, lass dein lieb Engeln, O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross,
>the succeeding Aria, Zerschmettert mich, and the final Chorale: Christe, du
>Lamm Gottes.
[snip]
>I haven't got a HIP version yet
If you indeed have Cleobury, then yes, you do have a HIP version.
Simon
Simon Roberts
>
>Simon Roberts wrote:
>> I like quite a few. At the head of the list would be Harnoncourt, Herreweghe
>>II, and Max, followed by Rilling/Hanssler, Corboz (for some of his soloists, esp
>> Equiluz), Lehel (for Kalmar and Reti), Forster (for Wunderlich, Grummer and
>> Ludwig), Gonnenwein (for Crass, Fassbaender and Equiluz), and Kroper (for his
>>insane interpretation of the opening chorus;he claims it's "really" a Gloria and
>> takes it twice as fast as anyone else). (I've kept several others, including
>>Suzuki, Fasolis, Dombrecht and Sorrell, but I can't remember anything about them
>> off-hand.)
>>
>> Simon
>
>I agree with most of these (but who is *Lehel* or, for that matter,
>*Kroper*? Can you tell me some more about them?)
Gyorgy Lehel's recording dates from the 1970s on Hungaroton; it's now (or at
least was; I just checked a couple of online stores with no success) on CD on
one of Hungaroton's subsidiary labels; a highlights disc appeared on White
Label. Andreas Kroper appears to be primarily a HIP flautist, though he has
also conducted a few other Czech/Slovakian HIP recordings. His conducting seems
self-consciously "different", with weird phrasing and tempo choices (ludicrously
fast as his opening chorus is, some of the slow arias barely seem to move at
all). I forget the label (it was distributed in the U.S. by Allegro, but that
won't help you...), but if I remember I'll check this evening when I get home.
(A quick online check suggests it's out of print.)
Towe's discussion in Choral Music on Records is fairly useful, if unavoidably
lacking in sufficient detail, but it was written in 1989 and thus misses
numerous recordings. I just discovered that it can be found online here:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/SJP-TNT.htm
Simon
Raymond Hall
news:cokla...@drn.newsguy.com...
Oh well, sobeit. What is specifically HIP about it then? Some continuuo
instruments? To these ears it all appears quite conventional, but then so
does Tafelmusik much of the time, and they are similarly branded.
Ray H
Taree
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:cokla...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> In article <O_9rd.54205$K7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Raymond Hall
>> says...
>>
>>>I've got Cleobury, who hasn't been mentioned yet. I enjoy it immensely,
>>>amd
>>>as you say the music is mostly premium Bach. In other words, great music.
>>>Much is memorable including the opening chorus, and many of the arias, the
>>>Chorales: Ach Herr, lass dein lieb Engeln, O Mensch bewein dein Sünde
>>>gross,
>>>the succeeding Aria, Zerschmettert mich, and the final Chorale: Christe,
>>>du
>>>Lamm Gottes.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>I haven't got a HIP version yet
>>
>> If you indeed have Cleobury, then yes, you do have a HIP version.
>
>
>Oh well, sobeit. What is specifically HIP about it then? Some continuuo
>instruments?
The orchestra uses period instruments, the strings play in a different style
from modern strings, the soloists are from the HIP camp, etc.
Simon
Philip Peters
Thanks. I'll certainly look into these (but first have to earn some more
Euroguilders). What about Kuijken, my hero when it comes to the SJP?
Philip
>
David7Gable
>Cappriccio, because it said something about a revised (1749?) version on
>the cover, but there are only very minor differences to the "standard"
>version.
Minor? The opening chorus is excised.
-david gable
Johannes Roehl
No.
That's the already mentioned 1725 (or whatever) version (which I do not
know). I don't have the Capriccio discs handy, so I can't tell what's
supposed to be diferent in the 1749(?) version, but it does start with
"Herr, unser Herrscher".
Johannes
Simon Roberts
>
>Thanks. I'll certainly look into these (but first have to earn some more
>Euroguilders). What about Kuijken, my hero when it comes to the SJP?
I haven't heard it in ages; I remember not liking it, but not why.
Simon
Larry Rinkel
But it is in G minor.
A. Brain
>
> >What are your favourite recordings?
>
> Not Gardiner or Herreweghe or Harnoncourt 2. I do like the
performance of "Es
> ist vollbracht" from the first Harnoncourt recording. Terrific boy
alto.
Harnoncourt 1 (I presume everyone else has
been referring to Harnoncourt 2) is OOP,
part of the totally erratic reissue policies
of Teldec or Warner or whoever they are.
They've issued and reissued other stuff,
in the manner of Sony, but I think the
first Harnoncourt St. John only made
it to CD once, back in the mid to late
'80s.
I still wonder why Harnoncourt gave up
not just on boy singers (and he had some
really good ones in the cantata series)
but also on boy choirs. I don't think
he's used either since the cantata series
was completed.
I picked up SJP set on Naxos that uses
all boy singers, New College Choir, making
for the second recording to use boy soloists
in this work And another Englishman, Robert
King, was the first to record boy soloists in
the Mass in b. Then Roy Goodman has
recorded the "reconstruction" of the St. Mark
Passion with a boy treble soloist and a
mixed choir. I just picked that up as a
cut-out at Chicago Tower.
I haven't got around to listening to the
Higginbottom Naxos disc or the
Goodman yet.
Going back to Warner/Teldec or whatever,
there seems to be quite a lot of stuff they
never reissued on CD. Why don't
they try something like what DGG
and EMI and to some extent Sony
have done, with "originals" series? The
Telefunken "Das Alte Werke" is an
obvious opportunity.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Simon Roberts
says...
>I still wonder why Harnoncourt gave up
>not just on boy singers (and he had some
>really good ones in the cantata series)
>but also on boy choirs. I don't think
>he's used either since the cantata series
>was completed.
I think the reasons's fairly simple: he doesn't like them (don't know whether he
ever did). You will also notice that he never uses the usual HIP female
soloists; when Julianne Baird went to study with him she was dismayed to learn
that he doesn't like the sounds made by most of that ilk (Kirkby et al.).
>I picked up SJP set on Naxos that uses
>all boy singers, New College Choir, making
>for the second recording to use boy soloists
>in this work And another Englishman, Robert
>King, was the first to record boy soloists in
>the Mass in b.
Doesn't Parrott use a boy alto or two in his recording?
Simon
Pierre Ducre
>
> Harnoncourt 1 (I presume everyone else has
> been referring to Harnoncourt 2) is OOP,
Your Harnoncourt 1 is actually Gillesberger who was credited originally
the 'General Leitung' while H was only the conductor of the Concentus
Musicus. When it was reissued, Harnoncourt -being more famous- was put
first in the credit list, but I would hesitate to call it Harnoncourt's.
At best, it is a collaborative effort.
PD
Johannes Roehl
> In article <WuWrd.84930$7i4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, A. Brain
> says...
>
>>I still wonder why Harnoncourt gave up
>>not just on boy singers (and he had some
>>really good ones in the cantata series)
>>but also on boy choirs. I don't think
>>he's used either since the cantata series
>>was completed.
>
> I think the reasons's fairly simple: he doesn't like them (don't know whether he
> ever did). You will also notice that he never uses the usual HIP female
> soloists; when Julianne Baird went to study with him she was dismayed to learn
> that he doesn't like the sounds made by most of that ilk (Kirkby et al.).
He said this explicitly to Baird?
just wondering
Johannes
Simon Roberts
says...
The same may be true of Harnoncourt's first SMP. If my memory of the LP booklet
is right, Harnoncourt was listed as the conductor of the orchestra, Willcocks as
conductor of the choir, and at least one photograph showed Willcocks standing in
front of the assembled musicians and doing something resembling conducting. Can
anyone confirm/refute this?
Simon
Simon Roberts
>
>Simon Roberts schrieb:
>>In article <WuWrd.84930$7i4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, A. Brain
>> says...
>>
>> ever did). You will also notice that he never uses the usual HIP female
>>soloists; when Julianne Baird went to study with him she was dismayed to learn
>> that he doesn't like the sounds made by most of that ilk (Kirkby et al.).
>
>He said this explicitly to Baird?
I believe so (at least, I was told so by someone who discussed it with Baird; I
can't remember whether she says anything about it in her contribution to Bernard
Sherman's book).
Simon
Thomas Wood
I have the 1971 LP set, and its notes include a photo of Willcocks and
Harnoncourt both addressing the performers, Harnoncourt clutching a cello.
And another of Willcocks apparently conducting.
Hans Gillesberger is "Einstudierung" of the unnamed Vienna Choir Boys who
sing Soprano I and II. Christoph Lickleder is "Einstudierung" of the boys
from Regensburg Cathedral, who make up the soprani in the two cori.. The
altos, tenors and basses in the two cori are from King's College, Cambridge
and Willcocks is listed as their "Leitung/Conductor." . Harnoncourt is
"Gesamleitung/Musical Director." Lots of cooks in that broth ... but the
recording holds up well.
Tom Wood
David7Gable
>Oh well, sobeit. What is specifically HIP about it [Cleobury's SJP] then? Some
continuuo
>instruments? To these ears it all appears quite conventional, but then so
>does Tafelmusik much of the time, and they are similarly branded.
>
>Ray H
>Taree
You've just convinced me I should hear Cleobury. I virtually never really like
Bach performances, at least in works for voices and ensemble. I prefer period
instruments but not late 20th-century performance practice (i.e., most
so-called HIP). On the other hand, I don't like slow, heavy, Brahms-ified
Bach. Schoenberg once said the middle road is the only one that doesn't lead
to Rome. In this case it's the only one that does.
There's plenty not to like in what little from Takelmusik I've heard--the
amateurishness of technique--but what I've liked--in the first movement of
their Sony 5th Brandenburg--is that it's only so-called HIP: they use period
instruments, but their decisions--their phrasing and projection of the
rhythms--are absolutely no different in kind from the decisions made by
non-HIPsters.
I wish there were a complete recording of the Bach cantatas, motets, Passions,
and Masses from circa 1965 with somebody like Konrad Ruhland conducting.
Or--this is even more of a fantasy--the Robert Craft of the 60's conducting
virtuosic masters of period instruments.
-david gable
David7Gable
>been referring to Harnoncourt 2) is OOP,
And was even before I managed to find a used copy:
Teldec 8.35018
His first B minor Mass and Matthäus Passion were issued in the same series only
to be reissued later at a lower price.
-david gable
David7Gable
>the 'General Leitung' while H was only the conductor of the Concentus
>Musicus. When it was reissued, Harnoncourt -being more famous- was put
>first in the credit list
That's probably why I like it as much as I do . . . which is still not enough.
A similar stunt was pulled when Jürgen Jürgens made his first recording of the
Monteverdi Vespers for Telefunken: it was very difficult from the LP packaging
to determine that JJ rather than Harnoncourt was really the conductor. On the
cover of the CD reissue, though, JJ's name is prominently displayed,
Harnoncourt's not at all.
-david gable
David7Gable
"Pierre Ducré" wrote:
>>Your Harnoncourt 1 is actually Gillesberger who was credited originally
>>the 'General Leitung' while H was only the conductor of the Concentus
>>Musicus.
Simon asked:
>The same may be true of Harnoncourt's first SMP. If my memory of
>the LP booklet is right, Harnoncourt was listed as the conductor of
>the orchestra, Willcocks as conductor of the choir, and at least one
>photograph showed Willcocks standing in front of the assembled
>musicians and doing something resembling conducting.
In the most recent Teldec CD reissue--the second of two--Harnoncourt is
identifed as the conductor, but I vaguely recall the same thing you do. (I've
got the LP's somewhere. Unfortunately they're in a different state.) Given
that the first Harnoncourt SJP and the first Jürgen Jürgens Monteverdi Vespers
weren't really conducted by Harnoncourt, despite the implications of the
listings on the covers of the LP issues, odds are good our memories aren't
deceiving us.
And now for a quiz: where does the name Pierre Ducré come from?
-david gable
David7Gable
>that he doesn't like the sounds made by most of that ilk (Kirkby et al.).
Wonderful!!!!! My estimation of Harnoncourt went up when I heard him
conducting Johann Strauss a few New Years Eve's ago. It's just gone up
further. (I do like his old recording of Castor et Pollux: at least that time
out, he was just perfect for the rhetoric at once formal and exaggerated of
French Baroque opera.)
-david gable
David7Gable
>polite and pretty as Herreweghe sometimes makes it.
Agreed. And better Gardiner than that. But Gardiner's only means of
generating excitement is tempo. His phrasing is no more distinctive (or even
existent).
-david gable
David7Gable
>> I hate to be picky, but it's the passion according to St. John. Christ
>Jesus
>> experienced the passion, not John.
Gerritt wrote:
>How do you know that Jesus experienced the passion? Books written decades
>later, stories based on those books, movies based on those stories based on
>those books?
The answers to your questions are irrelevant. In the Bible and in the Bach
Passions it is Jesus and not John who experiences the passion. Just as Don
Giovanni goes to hell near the end of Don Giovanni or Leopold Boom rescues
Stephen Daedalus from a drunken brawl in Ulysses. Moreover, Bach was a
believer: he believed that the historical Jesus experienced the passion.
-david gable
Raymond Hall
My copy is part of Vol 10 of the Brilliant Classics Bach edition, a 9CD
collection of the Passions, in thick twofer cases, (the St. Matthew using 3
CDs) with Cleobury conducting, (Brandenburg Consort (Roy Goodman leader) and
Kings' College Cambridge choir), both the St. Matthew and St. John (recorded
1994 and 1996 respectively), Roy Goodman conducting the St. Mark, and
Gerhard Rehm conducting the St. Luke. Whilst it may be (as Simon says) HIP
inflected, I don't have sufficient comparisons to say that these aren't, but
deuced if it matters to me. Or to my ears. Certainly they are far removed
from the slow heavy Brahmsish Bach that you abhor (as I do to), but then
neither do they come across to my ears as particularly HIP either. Not that
I worry myself too much about such things, providing the musicality and the
textures come through. And in addition, as an aside, I don't much like one
to a part Bach either. Too lean for me.
As regards Tafelmusik, their Brandenburgs are variable (must listen to whole
lot again, but remember that some don't really come off too well, while
others do), but much of their Haydn under Weil is quite admirable, and
especially the various Masses. I must admit I don't find any particular
amateurishness of technique with them at all.
As for Robert Craft, I have recently just acquired his latest recordings on
Naxos, of Gurre-Lieder, and of Oedipus Rex/Les Noces, with the Philharmonia
involved in both. Well worth looking out for, unless already heard by
yourself, but too soon for me to make snap judgements. The pianos seem a bit
subdued to my ears in Les Noces (but the singing seems excellent, with
special training given to the Russian diction), and Oedipus stands out.
Gurre-Lieder gathers steam, but is quite a lush performance overall.
Ray H
Taree
Paul Ilechko
This is why it's so good that the works are in German - I don't have to
understand all the religious claptrap to enjoy the wonderful music.
Simon Roberts
>> You've just convinced me I should hear Cleobury. I virtually never really
>> like
>> Bach performances, at least in works for voices and ensemble. I prefer
>> period
>> instruments but not late 20th-century performance practice (i.e., most
>> so-called HIP).
You'll just *love* it, especially the soloists....
Simon
David7Gable
>understand all the religious claptrap to enjoy the wonderful music.
I'm a semi-provisional believer while I listen if not otherwise.
-david gable
gggg...@gmail.com
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
>
> What are your favourite parts?
> What are your favourite recordings?
>
Recent list of recommended recordings:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/mwi-recommends.htm
ljk...@aol.com
> Very seldom discussed here. I could find but 3 or so threads on deja-news.
>
> I don't know it very well so I would like to ask:
>
> What do you think of this piece?
>
> What are your favourite parts?
>
> What are your favourite recordings?
>
> ad
Eugen Jochum, Concertgebouw (Phillips) -- Some Romantic touches from Jochum; I love him here and in the St. Matthew; Haefliger a fine Evangelist
Fritz Werner, Pforzheim C.O., Schutz Choir of Heilbrun (Erato) -- Towe ("contemplative, reverent, inspired" performance, Helmut Krebs a "heavenly Evangelist")
Larry Kart