Celibidache and Furtwangler Question?
Jarl Sigurd
head of the BPO between 1945-47, how did he get along
with Furtwangler. What was the relationship like between
these two conductors?
Jarl Sigurd
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Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Just curious, seeing as Celibidache replaced Furtwangler as
> head of the BPO between 1945-47, how did he get along
> with Furtwangler. What was the relationship like between
> these two conductors?
Frida Leider, in her autobiography, reports coming home from the postwar
Berlin Opera one evening and being pleasantly surprised to see both F.
and C. had come for a visit. Leider's brief mention of this visit
suggests great cordiality between the two conductors.
--
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Ehrlich606
>Just curious, seeing as Celibidache replaced Furtwangler as
>head of the BPO between 1945-47, how did he get along
>with Furtwangler. What was the relationship like between
>these two conductors?
Having listened to a lot of Celi recently, I feel that Celi got a certain
amount of his ideas from WF. Not to say that Celi wasn't original in his own
right: he was. But in Tchaikovsky and Schumann I feel a protege relationship
here.
samir ghiocel golescu
> Having listened to a lot of Celi recently, I feel that Celi got a certain
> amount of his ideas from WF. Not to say that Celi wasn't original in his own
> right: he was. But in Tchaikovsky and Schumann I feel a protege relationship
> here.
Moreover, Celibidache claimed to have stated, in a tete-a-tete meeting
with Karajan, using the delicacy and gentleness that made him famous:
"Herr Karajan, in the Schumann's Fourth Symphony's transition from the
third to the fourth movement, Furtwangler reached artistic heights you
couldn't even dream off!"
It may not be a coincidence that Celibidache's Schumann recordings are
among his best and, simultaneously, among his most "Furtwanglerian" ones.
regards,
SG
samir ghiocel golescu
> Just curious, seeing as Celibidache replaced Furtwangler as
> head of the BPO between 1945-47, how did he get along
> with Furtwangler. What was the relationship like between
> these two conductors?
Much better than that between Furtwangler and Karajan, but not missing its
tensions and storms, though.
Celibidache tempered as much as he could his enormous ego in front of the
older (and, in Celibidache's system of reference, respected) maestro. They
even toured together in England, dividing concerts between them.
From 1947 to 1952, Celibidache remained *formally* music director of BPO
but in reality when Furtwangler made his comeback in 1947 everyone knew
who the boss was again. From 1952 to 1954, Furtwangler was formally
reconfirmed as music director of BPO, but Celibidache continued his
conducting activity with the orchestra.
Toward the end of Furtwangler's life, Celibidache's fortune with BPO
became thinner and thinner, both because of his lack of diplomacy (he
threatened once the orchestral musicians from BPO that he is going to
substitute all of them with young musicians) and because of Karajan's
machinations toward taking over Furtwangler's orchestra. Celibidache seems
to have felt hurt by what he interpreted as a lack of enough support from
Furtwangler.... the latter seemed to understand better and better that
Karajan will become volens nolens the next BPO chief.
After Furtwangler's death, Celibidache's publicly expressed opinions on
Furtwangler's art were, of course, marred by his general arrogant
dismissing everything that was done before him (all conductors were
"wrong", they didn't "understand", they weren't aware of the "musical
phenomenology" (as if Bach or Bruckner composed music only after reading
Husserl!!), even Furtwangler was kind of an "amateur" etc.
However, in his good moods, among all the "amateur" colleagues,
Celibidache praised Furtwangler's talent above that of all other
conductors. At times he used to talk about Furtwangler's fantastic
intuition and power of expression.
Someone that had a chance to read the published post-war
Furtwangler-Celibidache correspondence (I didn't, yet) might be less
tentative and more precise in defining their relation, perhaps even to
correct/nuance some of the things stated above.
regards,
SG
Simon Roberts
: Just curious, seeing as Celibidache replaced Furtwangler as
: head of the BPO between 1945-47, how did he get along
: with Furtwangler. What was the relationship like between
: these two conductors?
I haven't a clue (aside from what I've read in this thread), but there's a
performance by Celibidache of Brahms 4 with the BPO on Tahra from c. 1949
where the influence of Furtwaengler is obvious - it's a bit as though he
were trying to copy a Furtwaengler performance, exaggerating a bit in the
process; pretty thrilling, really (and vastly superior to his performances
of that symphony released by DG and EMI).
Simon
Roland van Gaalen
That could be explained by the BPO being accustomed to Furtwangler's
style, couldn't it? (I believe I have noticed something rather analogous
in the sound of the Concertgebouw Orchestra in its recordings from the
late 1940s and early 1950s under Van Beinum, Klemperer and Furtwangler.)
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Simon Roberts
: Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: : I haven't a clue (aside from what I've read in this thread), but there's a
: : performance by Celibidache of Brahms 4 with the BPO on Tahra from c. 1949
: : where the influence of Furtwaengler is obvious - it's a bit as though he
: : were trying to copy a Furtwaengler performance, exaggerating a bit in the
: : process; pretty thrilling, really (and vastly superior to his performances
: : of that symphony released by DG and EMI).
: That could be explained by the BPO being accustomed to Furtwangler's
: style, couldn't it? (I believe I have noticed something rather analogous
: in the sound of the Concertgebouw Orchestra in its recordings from the
: late 1940s and early 1950s under Van Beinum, Klemperer and Furtwangler.)
Sure, but not in terms of tempo fluctuations, of which there are many -
unless they simply ignored him....
Simon