Conductor nicknames
Lawrence Chalmers
him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.' Anyone care to add to the list of
conductors past and present? And who used these names? I
would assume that most often they were used in the third person. I
can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz Reiner, Fritz, etc.
In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
Andante teneramente
> I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from
^^^
Tod like death? Or Todd?
> him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.' Anyone care to add to the
> list of conductors past and present? And who used these
> names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
> third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and
> Fritz Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google
> search.
Wasn't Solti called "Screaming Scull" in his time at ROH?
The VPO (?) called Mengelberg "Bemaengelberg" (a pun: bemaengeln
= to find fault, to critisize).
--
Regards
Paul Goldstein
Chalmers says...
I'd feel a lot better about Handley's nickname if another D were added to it.
Otherwise, it is better suited to Zdenek Kosler, who some used to refer to as
"The Dead Man."
Paul Goldstein
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:10741-3FDF5391-134@storefull-
2234.public.lawson.webtv.net:
I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Raymond Hall
news:10741-3FD...@storefull-2234.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Sir Lawrence Olivier once screamed (BAWLED) at Bernstein, whilst Lenny was
immersing himself with some orchestral detail, oblivious (presumably) of the
fact that Olivier had arrived on the stage, after a special flight to New
York, and found himself being completely ignored for some time,
"LENNY!! Over here!! What the @#$ing f&^% do you want me to do, for %^&$'s
sake."
Bernstein came running.
Depends upon who is doing the calling.
<g>
Regards,
ø ü ä ö ë É © £ ¼ ½ ¾ à á è é ê ß å ç ô æ ± û
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
Andy Evans
J E Gardiner = Jiggy
Adrain Boult = Bolt upright (from his upright and straight conducting style)
I presume we all know Fluffy
while we're on 'musicians speak' I particularly like 'who's carving' for 'who's
conducting'.
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Michael Smith
Sir John Eliot Gardiner is, I understand, known as 'Jiggy', though not
to his face. He is said not to be noted for his sense of humour.
And Franz Welser-Most attracted the nickname 'Frankly Worse than Most'
during his time with the LPO.
Michael
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
I can always irritate Martha if I refer to the conductor of the Chicago
Symphony orchestra as Daniel Boring-bum.
(Russ)
DelMarva LaPoule
>
> Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
So did all the musicians in the Philharmonia at the time. I learned this
from Phil Catelinet during a conducting lesson. The reason is that he
was always impeccably dressed (in public) and very good with the ladies
(when not in public).
When Eliahu Inbal started to slow down, he was occasionally called
"Jew-lini," which I find rather mean-spirited toward both musicians
involved.
>
--
DelMarva LaPoule
Poetry in Poultry
"Opinion, in the face of reality, becomes dogma."
Ian Pace
"Lawrence Chalmers" <law...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10741-3FD...@storefull-2234.public.lawson.webtv.net...
who work with her as 'Chachi'.
Best,
Ian
Dontaitchicago
>From: law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers)
>Date: 12/16/2003 12:48 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <10741-3FD...@storefull-2234.public.lawson.webtv.net>
I have read and heard that Bernstein liked to be called "Lenny" and
encouraged everyone to call him that, including orchestra members.
Regarding "Fritz," he was of course "Doctor Reiner" and that was it! But I
heard a great story from a Chicago Symphony principal wind player. To wit -
It was a New Year's morning. No concert the night before, so the player had
been to a New Year's Eve party and had had, shall we say, a great time and had
collapsed into bed. At about 8 AM his phone rang. He picked it up and the voice
at the other end said "Dees iz Fritz Reiner." In his hung-over fog he thought
it was a CSO colleague playing a prank, so he said "Yeah, Fritz, how are ya?"
Pregnant pause. "I am fyyyne. Ahnd yoooo????" Panic.Terror. Good God, it's HIM!
"Oh I'm sorry Doctor Reiner but you know it's early in the morning and and
and...." Turned out that Reiner wanted to know what concerto the man would like
to play with orchestra in the next season, and Reiner understood about New
Year's morning, even though he was conducting business at 8 o'clock.
Don Tait
David Wesolowicz
> to his face. He is said not to be noted for his sense of humour.
A friend of mine in the BSO said he was referred to there as "John Idiot
Gardiner". It seems unfair since I love Gardiner's work but I've never
played under him though.
Dave
"Michael Smith" <michaels...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1aa7916.03121...@posting.google.com...
Terry Simmons
aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans) wrote:
ŠsnipŠ
>
> I presume we all know Fluffy
>
Only on this ng.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Brendan R. Wehrung
Beecham, or course, was "Tommy", but that seema to have been in social
situations, not in the concert hall.
Brendan
--
Ward Hardman
: I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from
Didn't Bruno Labate, oboist of the NYPO, once tell Otto Klemperer during
rehearsal, "Mistah Klemps, you talk too much!"
Wadn't Pierre Monteux known as "Papa"?
Pierre Boulez was known as "The French Correction," while with the NYPO.
Reiner's nickname was "Friendly Fritz."
George Szell's nickname for the NYPO was "Murder, Incorporated."
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Brendan R. Wehrung
> In article <20031216174906...@mb-m28.aol.com>,
> aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans) wrote:
>
> ŠsnipŠ
>>
>> I presume we all know Fluffy
>>
>
> Only on this ng.
>
So what was he called? Certainly not "Herbie".
Brendan
--
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> I have read and heard that Bernstein liked to be called "Lenny" and
> encouraged everyone to call him that, including orchestra members.
>
> Regarding "Fritz," he was of course "Doctor Reiner" and that was it!
> But I heard a great story from a Chicago Symphony principal wind player.
> To wit -
>
> It was a New Year's morning. No concert the night before, so the
> player had been to a New Year's Eve party and had had, shall we say, a
> great time and had collapsed into bed. At about 8 AM his phone rang. He
> picked it up and the voice at the other end said "Dees iz Fritz Reiner."
> In his hung-over fog he thought it was a CSO colleague playing a prank,
> so he said "Yeah, Fritz, how are ya?" Pregnant pause. "I am fyyyne. Ahnd
> yoooo????" Panic.Terror. Good God, it's HIM! "Oh I'm sorry Doctor Reiner
> but you know it's early in the morning and and and...." Turned out that
> Reiner wanted to know what concerto the man would like to play with
> orchestra in the next season, and Reiner understood about New Year's
> morning, even though he was conducting business at 8 o'clock.
Did the wind player go to rehearsal the following day and discover a pink
slip on his music stand?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:3FDF9808...@satx.rr.com:
When I lived in San Francisco in the 1970s, a fellow collector and I used
to refer to Barenboim between ourselves as "Boom-Boom" or "Boing-Boing."
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:broksl$5b2$1...@gondor.sdsu.edu:
> Lawrence Chalmers <law...@webtv.net> wrote:
>: I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.'
>: Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And who
>: used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
>: third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
>: Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
>
> Didn't Bruno Labate, oboist of the NYPO, once tell Otto Klemperer during
> rehearsal, "Mistah Klemps, you talk too much!"
I had thought that, in truly Chiconian fashion, the verb was "talka."
> Wadn't Pierre Monteux known as "Papa"?
>
> Pierre Boulez was known as "The French Correction," while with the NYPO.
>
> Reiner's nickname was "Friendly Fritz."
>
> George Szell's nickname for the NYPO was "Murder, Incorporated."
--
Alan Watkins
I think it inadvisable to comment on living conductors for obvious
reasons but there is one known on the circuit by the initials PE and
it is said of him that he reaches his crescendo too soon.
There is an American opera conductor who is known as A**e Bandit and a
Czech conductor who is known as S&M.
Of the latter I can only say that he has a blonde female partner many
decades his junior who attends all rehearsals. That is not unusual.
What is (slightly) unusual is that in performances of House of the
Dead (Janacek) he insists on bringing his own chains, rather than
relying on those of the orchestra.
It does not worry me personally but it has resulted in some
speculation.
Sargent was called Flash Harry because he spent a long time arranging
his hair before each performance.
An alternative nickname for Mengelberg and based on his "arranging" of
scores was Mangelberg. Solti was, and correctly, the "Screaming
Skull". Probably the worst famous conductor I have played for
(technically)
Vaclav Neumann was always known as "Izzit" for his habit of asking
recording people: "Is it right, is it okay?"
In England, Norman del Mar was known as "Beastly" because he
continually used the word in rehearsals..."This is a BEASTLY
passage/work etc etc"
One living one: Rozhdestvensky is known as Killer for his habit of
slashing the baton across his throat to indicate staccato passages.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Raymond Hall
news:brom3t$16k$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
| Terry Simmons (tlst...@tpgi.com.au) writes:
| > In article <20031216174906...@mb-m28.aol.com>,
| > aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans) wrote:
| >
| >>
| >> I presume we all know Fluffy
| >>
| >
| > Only on this ng.
| >
|
| So what was he called? Certainly not "Herbie".
Herbstchen?
<g>
Regards, (only kidding)
Dan Koren
news:bro9ug$5jihq$1...@ID-209093.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> The contemporary conductor Odaline de
> la Martinez is commonly known to all
> who work with her as 'Chachi'.
>
Is she known to anyone else?
dk
Richard Schultz
: Solti was, and correctly, the "Screaming Skull". Probably the worst
: famous conductor I have played for (technically)
Now that David Hurwitz appears to be in hibernation, I can ask you about
Solti's conducting. I once saw a film of a concert performance he led
of Mahler's 2d Symphony (IIRC, from 1964 or thereabouts) and I couldn't
help wondering, how on earth are they able to follow him? So how were
you -- or did you just ignore him and just play the notes in front of you?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Dan Kravetz
>
> So did all the musicians in the Philharmonia at the time. I learned this
> from Phil Catelinet during a conducting lesson. The reason is that he
> was always impeccably dressed (in public) and very good with the ladies
> (when not in public).
>
owing to the fact that his first name was Harold (Harold Malcolm Watts
Sargent).
And if you're looking for a conductor with a built-in nickname, you
can't do better than Christof Prick, who changed his name to Perick
when his career first took him to English-speaking countries.
Otherwise, musicians would never have stopped asking one another,
"What do you think of the new conductor?"
David7Gable
A friend of mine has been referring to Karajan as Herbie for years. He refers
to another conductor as Goolini with specific reference to some of his slow
late performances. (He's not a fan of either one.) Another friend habitually
refers to Boulez as Wooly Bullie. Some members of the NY Phil in the early
70's referred to Boulez as the French Correction, of course. (Actually, in his
parting speech following his last NY Phil concert as Music Director, Boulez
good naturedly acknowledged this, adding that he hoped to remain the NY Phil's
French Connection.)
-david gable
David7Gable
>> The contemporary conductor Odaline de
>> la Martinez is commonly known to all
>> who work with her as 'Chachi'.
>>
>
>
>Is she known to anyone else?
Yes. Anybody who goes to her concerts or buys her records.
-david gable
David7Gable
>of Mahler's 2d Symphony (IIRC, from 1964 or thereabouts) and I couldn't
>help wondering, how on earth are they able to follow him? So how were
>you -- or did you just ignore him and just play the notes in front of you?
An orchestra might have been able to ignore Solti conducting Mahler's 2nd and
still get through it, but there are plenty of pieces that Solti has conducted
where that is simply not true, including Carter's Variations for Orchestra.
I'm not particularly a fan of Solti--if anything, he's a bit of a bęte noir
with me--but his basic musicality and competence far exceed that of most of the
rest of us, and that is true of every conductor who manages pieces like this.
No orchestra could perform such pieces without a conductor: an extremely
(musically) well endowed conductor. Until fairly recently, the same would also
have been true of The Rite of Spring. If Solti weren't competent to perform
the Rite, he'd have been driven off the podium years ago, and none of us would
ever have heard of him.
-david gable
Mark Stratford
Mark Stratford
APparently his rehearsals sometimes just meant going all the way
through a piece - promting a player to ask at the end "Err...was there
anything you wanted..?"
Stephen North
> law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers) wrote
>
> > I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from
> Tod like death? Or Todd?
>
Tod because he "toddles" when he walks - apparently!
S
DelMarva LaPoule
He was also known as "20th Century Limited."
Richard Schultz
:>I once saw a film of a concert performance he led
:>of Mahler's 2d Symphony (IIRC, from 1964 or thereabouts) and I couldn't
:>help wondering, how on earth are they able to follow him? So how were
:>you -- or did you just ignore him and just play the notes in front of you?
: If Solti weren't competent to perform
: the Rite, he'd have been driven off the podium years ago, and none of us
: would ever have heard of him.
I didn't say that he was incompetent. All I said is that it appeared to
me that an orchestral musician would have had a very difficult time
following him, since the gap between "what one learns in conducting class"
and "what he did on the podium" seems to have been greater for him than
for just about any other conductor I've seen in action. It's possible
that he was great at preparing the orchestra in rehearsal, so that at the
actual time of the performance, his presence wasn't actually necessary,
so the musicians could in fact have been ignoring him. That's just one
possibility. I was hoping that Mr. Watkins, a professional musician who
played under Solti, might be able to give us more accurate information.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Terry Simmons
(Brendan R. Wehrung) wrote:
Šand even more certainly, not Fluffy!
--
Cheers!
Terry
Andy Evans
At least Odd Grunner Hegge didn't....
The UK rock band PAZ has some nice nicknames:
Geoff Castle - Deaf Arsehole
Ray Warleigh - Raw Willy
Chris Fletcher - Flesh Clutcher
If you knew what they're like it would be even funnier....
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Andy Evans
who work with her as 'Chachi'.>
I was in her year in the RAM - she was called that in 1972!
HenryFogel
>From: aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans)
>Date: 12/17/03 10:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20031217102828...@mb-m16.aol.com>
>
>Christof Prick, who changed his name to Perick>>
>
>At least Odd Grunner Hegge didn't....
>
There have been great name changes in operas -- the American soprano Ann
McKnight becoming Anna de Cavalieri is one, the tenor Edward Johnson becoming
Eduardo di Giovanni another.
One of my favorites though was a tenor in the 1960s named Morris Stern, who
changed his name to Mauro Lampi. (Stern translating to star -- which got
changed to lamp, with an "I" added to Italianize it). Now that is imaginative.
Henry Fogel
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
Don't forget Paolo Washington.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Alan Watkins
> In article <62c8649c.03121...@posting.google.com>, Alan Watkins <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> : Solti was, and correctly, the "Screaming Skull". Probably the worst
> : famous conductor I have played for (technically)
Regardless of whether Mr Hurwitz is in hibernation or not, I can only
say what I think and it is only that, an opinion.
I played very little for Solti but I have vivid memories for all the
wrong reasons of a performance of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, a
wonderful work which is, as all know, difficult at times for both
conductor and orchestra. There are shifting rhythms, there are
shifting sonorities and, for me, an absolute masterpiece (although,
naturally, the composer hated it probably for the simple reason that
everyone else thought it was a masterpiece).
We had, I think, three rehearsals. The first was taken up by Mr Solti
discussing Bartok and how significant the work was, how phrasing was
the key to it and, I recall, "absolute rhythmic precision" but we did
not actually start on the piece until about 3 p.m. (We started, I
think, with the finale).
He was stopping the orchestra every two or three bars to complain
about "phrasing" and so we found it difficult to put into practice his
phrasing arrangements for more than two or three bars at a time (which
is not helpful, in my view).
As we proceeded he conducted andante passages with a slashing beat,
often significantly behind the beat and I remember thinking that this
was going to be a difficult performance. When we did not always
understand this, the abuse began.
Orchestral musicians are, in my opinion, fairly thick skinned but I
was not prepared for the tirade. We were treated to a three or four
minute lecture about how he had conducted the greatest orchestras in
the world, how they regarded him as the greatest conductor they had
played for and how he was the "greatest living exponent" of Bartok.
He went on to mention that he was giving us the opportunity to be
considered among "the best" and how badly we had succeeded in
assisting his ambition.
In my view it went downhill from there.
It should be said, of course, that the Prague Symphony is not the LSO,
not the Chicago Symphony, not the Boston Phil, not the New York
Philharmonic, not the Vienna or Berlin Phil but not all the players
are useless or worthless (although many felt they were after these
sessions).
I do not have a degree in psychology but I doubt you will get the best
out of people by telling them how useless they are.
On Day Three we had an informal "section" meeting and determined to do
our own thing that evening, the live concert. There are many
difficult entries for various instruments in Concerto for Orchestra
and he was simply not beating them accurately or was beating them late
(at several moments after we had PLAYED the note). The snare drum
solo was beaten by Mr Solti out of time both on day three and on the
night and had not the player done his own counting he would have been
sunk without trace. It is a difficult part to play and help is
appreciated but accurate help came their none.
We were very anxious to do our (obviously inadequate) best for a
famous name especially one who announced on Day One: "You will never
play Bartok so well again".
I think it is pretty clear that we failed in that particular objective
on that occasion but I comfort myself with the fact that I three times
played for Mr Ancerl in that work and with reasonable result and,
equally importantly, I more recently played the work with a "less than
famous conductor" called Ivan Fischer
who could not only explain it but beat it very helpfully for the
orchestra and give very helpful cues.
Although a member of a second or third rate orchestra, I thought Solti
rude, arrogant and insulting and I cannot personally see what he hoped
to achieve by that.
Much more important, perhaps, is the fact that three principals/first
chairs in the London Symphony Orchestra (one of the world famous
orchestras he reminded us he had conducted and I assume one of the
orchestras who had never known a better conductor) refused to play for
him whether in recordings or concert. The rest of my post is a matter
of opinion: their decision is a matter of fact.
Kind regards,
Alan M.Watkins
Jeffrey Smith
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers) appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:10741-3FDF5391-134@storefull-
>2234.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>
>> I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.'
>> Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And who
>> used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
>> third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
>> Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
>
>I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
>
>Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
What is very interesting is that, although the nickname 'Flash Harry'
was originally applied to Harold Malcolm Sargent, it has passed into
common usage for any spiv-type person. There was a character called
Flash Harry in the St. Trinians series of films, played by George Cole
of Minder fame.
Jeffrey Smith.
To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.
'It is hard to be brave', said Piglet, sniffling slightly, 'when
you're only a very small animal'.
A.A. Milne.
Raymond Hall
news:62c8649c.03121...@posting.google.com...
| sch...@mail.biu.ack.il (Richard Schultz) wrote in message
news:<brotvk$s77$1...@news.iucc.ac.il>...
| > In article <62c8649c.03121...@posting.google.com>, Alan
Watkins <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
| >
| > : Solti was, and correctly, the "Screaming Skull". Probably the worst
| > : famous conductor I have played for (technically)
|
| on that occasion but I comfort myself with the fact that I three times
| played for Mr Ancerl in that work and with reasonable result and,
| equally importantly, I more recently played the work with a "less than
| famous conductor" called Ivan Fischer
| who could not only explain it but beat it very helpfully for the
| orchestra and give very helpful cues.
There is a very good recording on the bargain Australian Eloquence label,
that couples Ivan Fischer's MSPC of Bartok (quite exceptional) with the
Budapest Festival Orchestra, and coupled with Dorati's Concertgebouw
Concerto for Orchestra.
I culled Solti's CfO many moons ago. An absolute breathless disgrace of a
performance. Haitink has far more to say about the CfO, as recorded, than
Solti ever did from the wretched recorded evidence I threw away.
Regards,
Matthew燘. Tepper
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:33:50 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
><oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers) appears to have caused the following
>>letters to be typed in news:10741-3FDF5391-134@storefull-
>>2234.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>>
>>> I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.'
>>> Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And who
>>> used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
>>> third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
>>> Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
>>
>>I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
>>
>>Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
>
>
> What is very interesting is that, although the nickname 'Flash Harry' was
> originally applied to Harold Malcolm Sargent, it has passed into common
> usage for any spiv-type person. There was a character called Flash Harry
> in the St. Trinians series of films, played by George Cole of Minder
> fame.
I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
DelMarva LaPoule
> henry...@aol.com (HenryFogel) appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:20031217104437...@mb-m12.aol.com:
>
>
>>>Subject: Re: Conductor nicknames
>>>From: aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans)
>>>Date: 12/17/03 10:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>>Message-id: <20031217102828...@mb-m16.aol.com>
>>>
>>>Christof Prick, who changed his name to Perick>>
>>>
>>>At least Odd Grunner Hegge didn't....
>>>
>>
>>There have been great name changes in operas -- the American soprano
>>Ann McKnight becoming Anna de Cavalieri is one, the tenor Edward
>>Johnson becoming Eduardo di Giovanni another.
>>
>>One of my favorites though was a tenor in the 1960s named Morris
>>Stern, who changed his name to Mauro Lampi. (Stern translating to
>>star -- which got changed to lamp, with an "I" added to Italianize
>>it). Now that is imaginative.
>
>
> Don't forget Paolo Washington.
>
But Tzimon Barto (Eschenbach's favorite pianist) also has a spurious name.
--
DelMarva LaPoule
Poetry in Poultry
"Opinion, in the face of reality, becomes dogma."
Matthew燘. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in news:lsbEb.6251$Y8.4918
@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>> Don't forget Paolo Washington.
>>
> Then there's Pittsburgh Public Health spokesman, Guillermo Cole.
>
> But Tzimon Barto (Eschenbach's favorite pianist) also has a spurious
> name.
Isn't his true name something like John Smith?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
DelMarva LaPoule
> DelMarva LaPoule <vze28thq@**nospam**verizon.net> appears to have caused
> the following letters to be typed in news:lsbEb.6251$Y8.4918
> @nwrdny02.gnilink.net:
>
>
>>Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>>Don't forget Paolo Washington.
>>>
>>
>>Then there's Pittsburgh Public Health spokesman, Guillermo Cole.
>>
>>But Tzimon Barto (Eschenbach's favorite pianist) also has a spurious
>>name.
>
>
> Isn't his true name something like John Smith?
>
More like Bart Simpson, I think.
Mark Stratford
> I culled Solti's CfO many moons ago. An absolute breathless disgrace of a
> performance. Haitink has far more to say about the CfO, as recorded, than
> Solti ever did from the wretched recorded evidence I threw away.
>
Have seen a video of Solti doing it in Budapest with CSO. As you say
it was "breathless". Truly awful. Ditto his performance at the Proms
around the same time.
Dorati was the nicest performance I've ever heard.
mark stratford
Dennis
"Klempie", he responded: "You may call, but I won't come!"
Praetorius
(Lawrence Chalmers) appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed:
> > I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.'
> > Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And who
> > used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
> > third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
> > Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
>
> I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
>
> Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
Dart's full name was Robert Thurston Dart. [I think Boult's started with
Cecil.]
"Flash Harry" referred to Sargent's "impeccable" appearance and his first
being Harold:
Sargent subsequently went on to a distinguished career as a conductor,
achieving world-wide fame and popularity for his appearances at the
Henry Wood Promenade Concerts where, because of his unfailing
panache, he became affectionately known among the promenaders
as "Flash Harry", a reference to his first name of Harold and the fact
that he always dressed immaculately and usually wore a carnation
in his buttonhole, red during the day and white in the evenings.
http://homepages.which.net/~rex/bourne/diary200207.htm
I don't know if the sobriquet originated with Beeecham, as I see at least
one reference to "Sir Malcolm Sargent, 'Flash Harry' as he was
affectionately
known." http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/3forall_voteb.shtml
(I like Beecham's referring to Karajan as "A kind of musical Malcolm
Sargent".
- see other Beecham quips about Sargent at, e.g., "True Tales of Tommy" at
http://www.houseoftoucans.com/True/True3.html).
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen "musical Malcolm Sargent.")
Alan Hayward
news:Xns9453D1324B8...@207.217.77.201...
> > Didn't Bruno Labate, oboist of the NYPO, once tell Otto Klemperer during
> > rehearsal, "Mistah Klemps, you talk too much!"
> I had thought that, in truly Chiconian fashion, the verb was "talka."
Maybe. Then again, Labate had such difficulty with words of more than one
syllable that, apparently, he managed to knock the 'o' off 'maestro':
Labate (during a rehearsal): "Maestr we play Moz?"
Barbirolli: "No, Schub".
Alan P Dawes
Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> wrote:
> What is very interesting is that, although the nickname 'Flash Harry'
> was originally applied to Harold Malcolm Sargent, it has passed into
> common usage for any spiv-type person. There was a character called
> Flash Harry in the St. Trinians series of films, played by George Cole
> of Minder fame.
In Cockney rhyming slang, Harry Dash means flash (natty). I assume that
the term 'Flash Harry' for a spiv or black market racketeer was derived
from this during the 2nd World War.
Alan
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | |
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Jeffrey Smith
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> appears to have caused
>the following letters to be typed in
>news:rer1uv00vlj22tb9k...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:33:50 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
>><oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers) appears to have caused the following
>>>letters to be typed in news:10741-3FDF5391-134@storefull-
>>>2234.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>>>
>>>> I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was 'Jack.'
>>>> Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And who
>>>> used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in the
>>>> third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
>>>> Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
>>>
>>>I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
>>>
>>>Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some reason.
>>
>>
>> What is very interesting is that, although the nickname 'Flash Harry' was
>> originally applied to Harold Malcolm Sargent, it has passed into common
>> usage for any spiv-type person. There was a character called Flash Harry
>> in the St. Trinians series of films, played by George Cole of Minder
>> fame.
>
>I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
To quote the Cassell Dictionary of Slang 'a flashy, sharp individual
who exists on the fringes of real criminality, living by their wits
rather than a regular job.'
Curtis Croulet
or two of the follow-ups have picked up the baton, so to speak, to carry on the
tradition. However, I find your comments to be extremely interesting, and next
time I look at my Solti videos, I'll look for some of the things you mention,
e.g. beating after the note's been played. You know, it'd really be interesting
to hear from Henry Fogel on this subject. He probably got an earful in Chicago.
But -- professional that he is -- I'm sure he'll remain silent.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59" N, 117° 05' 53" W
Robert Briggs
> I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
Have you seen our comedy series about the WWII Home Guard, "Dad's Army"?
Private Walker (James Beck) is a "spiv" - there are
few things that he can't get his hands on, provided
the price is right.
Robert Briggs
>
> Solti bashing has always been a popular sport in this forum ...
> You know, it'd really be interesting to hear from Henry Fogel on
> this subject. He probably got an earful in Chicago.
The Chicago orchestra had the advantage of having him as their principal
conductor, whereas I get the impression that he was a guest conductor
when Alan played under his baton.
Given sufficient competence all round, I would expect an ensemble to get
to know their principal conductor's foibles (good, neutral, or bad) and
be able to put on a decent show.
OTOH, with a guest conductor (or a new principal conductor) the
available rehearsal time before a concert may well be less than the
desirable "bedding in" period - even the best conductor won't
immediately get the best out of the best orchestra.
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
Thanks, now I understand.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:brshgt$3d0$1...@titan.btinternet.com:
And here I had always thought it was Beecham that he pulled that one on.
Matthew B. Tepper
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
>
> Have you seen our comedy series about the WWII Home Guard, "Dad's Army"?
Nope -- so much of the humor (all right, "humour") in so many native-Brit
comedies just goes right over my head.
> Private Walker (James Beck) is a "spiv" - there are
> few things that he can't get his hands on, provided
> the price is right.
>
> http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/dadsarmy/
However, that description might fit a well-known service-related American
sitcom of the 1950s or 1960s, "The Phil Silvers Show" (also known by the
title "You'll Never Get Rich"), about a colorful slick operator named Sgt.
Bilko who ostensibly runs his camp's motor pool, but really runs all sorts
of confidence games.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Andy Evans
performance. >
I heard his Symphony of Psalms on the radio - unbelievably bad. How on earth
can you ruin such beautiful music. Sounded as if he had to get home in time for
the Simpsons.
Andy Evans
Spiv is the opposite of oik
Raymond Hall
news:brshgt$3d0$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
LOL. This Labate fellow is intriguingly funny. As was Barbirolli at times.
Raymond Hall
news:6ft3uvss8mkj2fi9f...@4ax.com...
| On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:48:15 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
|
| >Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> appears to have caused
| >the following letters to be typed in
| >news:rer1uv00vlj22tb9k...@4ax.com:
| >
| >> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:33:50 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
| >>
| >>>law...@webtv.net (Lawrence Chalmers) appears to have caused the
following
| >>>letters to be typed in news:10741-3FDF5391-134@storefull-
| >>>2234.public.lawson.webtv.net:
| >>>
| >>>> I learned Vernon Handley is Tod and from him Bryden Thomson was
'Jack.'
| >>>> Anyone care to add to the list of conductors past and present? And
who
| >>>> used these names? I would assume that most often they were used in
the
| >>>> third person. I can't imagine directly calling LB Lenny and Fritz
| >>>> Reiner, Fritz, etc. In the meantime, I'll try a google search.
| >>>
| >>>I don't know if you'd count Thurston Dart, whose nickname was "Bob."
| >>>
| >>>Back to conductors, Beecham called Sargent "Flash Harry" for some
reason.
| >>
| >>
| >> What is very interesting is that, although the nickname 'Flash Harry'
was
| >> originally applied to Harold Malcolm Sargent, it has passed into common
| >> usage for any spiv-type person. There was a character called Flash
Harry
| >> in the St. Trinians series of films, played by George Cole of Minder
| >> fame.
| >
| >I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
If you ever catch the British series Minder, with Arthur Daley as the main
character, played by George Cole, and who always played a spiv, even in the
St. Trinians films, and his Minder played by Dennis Waterman, then you'll
have encapsulated before you the very definition and image of a "spiv".
Raymond Hall
news:xniEb.479998$0v4.21...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
| (I like Beecham's referring to Karajan as "A kind of musical Malcolm
| Sargent".
| - see other Beecham quips about Sargent at, e.g., "True Tales of Tommy" at
| http://www.houseoftoucans.com/True/True3.html).
Thanks for the link.
There was also the occasion when Beecham was told that Malcom Sargeant was
conducting in Japan.
To which Beecham replied, and to quote from memory, " Just another Flash in
Japan".
Alan Watkins
> Solti bashing has always been a popular sport in this forum, and I see that one
> or two of the follow-ups have picked up the baton, so to speak, to carry on the
> tradition. However, I find your comments to be extremely interesting, and next
> time I look at my Solti videos, I'll look for some of the things you mention,
> e.g. beating after the note's been played. You know, it'd really be interesting
> to hear from Henry Fogel on this subject. He probably got an earful in Chicago.
> But -- professional that he is -- I'm sure he'll remain silent.
I'm not Solti bashing, merely trying to explain that I had a bad
experience of him and what my experience was. I am used to grumpy
conductors (they have the same stresses as we do) but not to the sort
of pompous stuff we got. Perhaps, like other "superstars" in all
walks of life they believe their own publicity, whether it is right or
wrong? It is all a matter of opinion and I personally like his
performance of the Ring Cycle but I did not enjoy that experience and,
at the request of Mr Schultz, tried to explain why.
Bartok is a hard work for both conductor and orchestra as I stated.
We tried very hard (the brass played magnificently) but there were
certainly moments of uncertainty caused, at least sometimes, by an
unfamiliar and not very accurate beat. You get used to playing for
conductors whose time beating/cues are not accurate but I suppose we
"believed" the publicity as well. The performance itself was not bad
but could have been better. There were no serious mistakes in it that
I remember (we are fairly familiar with this work) but in the quirky
bits help is appreciated.
The general rule (not just for Mr Solti) is that if you find you
really cannot rely on the beating you tend not to look very much.
Also could I point out that playing, looking at the score, counting
and looking at the conductor is something of an acquired art.
One of the problems (again I am not relating this to Solti) is that if
you have a conductor whose beat is "all over the place" you actually
have to "look" for the stick. Although "straight" and probably not
very inspiring to look at, Boult was a dream for players because you
knew where the stick was going to be...right in front of him. I
imagine (but do not know) that despite being called an "Italian
bandmaster" by Beecham, Toscanini's players probably appreciated that
as well. Beecham was, of course, all over the place but according to
my teacher (who was one of the players) he basically conducted
"phrases" (sweeps of the music) leaving the players to concentrate on
rhythmic matters. Beecham basically conducted the "sound" rather than
the beat which a number of conductors do and which is okay for an
orchestra, assuming they have sorted out the phrasing they want in
rehearsal.
Personally - and Solti was certainly was/is not the only offender - I
hate rehearsing and being stopped every three or four bars. It is
VERY hard to get the "feel" of someone's interpretation in such a way.
Boult (and Handley and many others) often play right the way through a
movement at first rehearsal and then sort out the problems at the end
of the playthrough. I think that works very well. Ancerl worked like
that as well and so did Neumann and Smetacek.
Smetacek, for example, would sometimes play the entire work through at
one go as if it was the concert and then come back to the "problems".
He had an interesting and "curious" theory; given that many concerts
are an Overture/Concerto/Symphony or similar, Smetacek claimed that if
he got the sound "right" in the Overture it would be okay all the way
through!! He may have been talking more about "balance" between
sections but I've never heard anyone else suggest that.
Boult, in fact, used to say: "We'll go right the way through and I'll
only stop you if it's really terrible." I personally don't find the
stop-start technique anywhere as good as a decent attempt at a play
through or at least a reasonable chunk of it. That is also just an
opinion.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
I very much doubt in the present climate that an American or English
orchestra would take that sort of tirade today
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Andrew
Caballe as Monsterfat ......
Andrew Weintraub
Spam Scone
Maestro Watkins,
Your comments on Boult are interesting. Have you heard his recording
of Strauss' Don Quixote with Du Pre? It was just such a rehearsal
run-through as you described, with some minor errors patched with
outtakes from a cancelled Du Pre recording with Klemperer.
Heck51
"Solti bashing has always been a popular sport in this forum, and I
see that one or two of the follow-ups have picked up the baton, so to
speak, to carry on the tradition."
yup, it seems to be, and it's a bunch of crap. I never got to play for
Solti, but I wish that I did. two of my friends played for him, both
violinists - one a present BSO member, and the other a concert-master
type who a number of years back was in the finals for LSO
concert-meister - toured with them for 6 weeks, etc.
They loved him, tho he was demanding - knew exactly what he wanted to
hear - knew how to fix stuff, and got superb concentration from the
orchestra.
I heard/saw him live many, many times, and the concerts were wonderful
- very well-played and exciting.
Any time I've ever seen Solti, live, or on video, he never conducted
"behind the beat" - if anything he was always in front of it, in
anticipation. some listeners object to that, feeling that his
performances were too "driven". pushed too hard....that's tough to do
if you're "behind the beat"<shrugs>
It's very possible that later in his career he got more demanding, or
less tolerant of less than first-rate execution. he had spent years
conducting the very best - maybe he was running out of patience...that
i do not know.
as for his Concerto/Orchestra - his CSO one is wonderful, one of my
favorites - magnificently played...I'm not sure I'd take it over
Reiner's, but for me, it's certainly way up in the rankings...
Curtis Croulet
No, you weren't, and I take your very interesting remarks in the spirit in which
they were offered. But Solti regularly gets hammered here. As for me, I like
some things from him, dislike others. He misfired in some pieces where I
thought he was sure to hit a home run, but he blew the roof off San Diego Civic
Theater when he conducted Mahler 5 in 1973, and that concert will remain a
treasured memory for the rest of my life.
Lawrence Chalmers
Sutherland. Then there was E Sour Piggs and the Morning after
taffyapple chorus! MMaybe I'll remember
others later.
Matthew燘. Tepper
typed in news:5dd5890f.03121...@posting.google.com:
> I've heard of Konwitschny referred to as Kon-whiskey and Monserrat
> Caballe as Monsterfat ......
That latter one used to turn up in the cesspool that is rec.music.opera with
tiresome regularity.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Matthew燘. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
>> I'm not Solti bashing
>
> No, you weren't, and I take your very interesting remarks in the spirit
> in which they were offered. But Solti regularly gets hammered here. As
> for me, I like some things from him, dislike others. He misfired in
> some pieces where I thought he was sure to hit a home run, but he blew
> the roof off San Diego Civic Theater when he conducted Mahler 5 in 1973,
> and that concert will remain a treasured memory for the rest of my life.
Dang. I had a chance to go to that performance, and turned it down.
Raymond Hall
| > I'm not Solti bashing
|
| No, you weren't, and I take your very interesting remarks in the spirit in
which
| they were offered. But Solti regularly gets hammered here.
Maybe for good reason.
I wouldn't recommend Solti's *recording* of the Concerto for Orchestra (a
work which Mr Watkins brought up as an example of Solti's conducting, and
from his own first hand experience), to my worst enemy. And both versions
too, the LSO and the CSO ones. Haitink, Reiner, and Szell are all much
better. IMO. As is Dorati with the Concertgebouw. In fact I revisited
Szell's CfO (despite the unfortunate cut) on the MA CD I have, last night,
and thank goodness it does have the CfO, because I was completely
disappointed with Szell's Prokofiev 5th, partly on engineering grounds. One
can hardly discern the tam-tams at the end of the first movement. This is a
work that demands solid lower register engineering, and Szell plays funny
buggers with the tempi at times. However, in the Bartok CfO, Szell is at his
best, and this is a CfO to be reckoned with. Fortunately I did learn the
work from Szell, and originally his CfO was coupled with his Janacek's
Sinfonietta.
Part of the function of this group is to recommend and / or not recommend
recordings. Sad to say, but I couldn't get rid of the Solti CfO quick
enough. If that constitutes Solti bashing, then sobeit. I have no reason to
dislike Mr Solti, (he hasn't personally harmed me), but his idea of music
making, and mine differ widely. Fortunately, in all cases where Solti has
been involved, other conductors have shown me my idea of how music should be
played.
Basically, for me, Solti is all blustering huff-and-puff, but then what do I
know? Perhaps comparison between Karajan and Solti on video, would say in
pictures, what would normally take a zillion words, as to quality of
conducting style, grace, repose, and the feeling that HvK really knew
precisely what he wanted. But then, there are those that bash Herbie far
more mercilessly than Solti has ever been *bashed*. Each to their own.
At the end of the day, I still wouldn't recommend either of Solti's
*recorded* CfOs to anyone. Maybe others would. That is what this NG is about
(believe it or not).
Normally I am very positive wrt recommendations, but there are times when it
is necessary to call it as one hears it.
Heck51
"I wouldn't recommend Solti's *recording* of the Concerto for
Orchestra to my worst enemy."
then you would be hurting him severely!! he'd be missing out on an
outstanding performance.
"Basically, for me, Solti is all blustering huff-and-puff, but then
what do I
know?"
we've no idea... :)
"Perhaps comparison between Karajan and Solti on video, would say in
pictures, ....as to quality of conducting style, grace, repose, and
the feeling that HvK really knew precisely what he wanted."
and what he wanted was not particularly scintillating...stifled,
monotonous[monotone-ous], overly rounded dullness.
"Each to their own."
indeed, you are perfectly free to hate Solti and bash away to your
heart's content...others are free to disagree with you.
I'll endorse that Solti Mahler 5 experience - I heard him do it with
CSO in Carnegie Hall in 1970. incredible - it's still the greatest
live concert I've ever heard. I was a senior in conservatory that
year, and I'd heard most every major orchestra by then - some of them
quite frequently - NYPO, Philadelphia, Cleveland, BSO, PittsburghSO,
AmerSO, VPO, BPO, ACGO. This Solti Mahler 5 was head and shoulders
above the rest.
He did a Shostakovich #8 in Boston Sym Hall in the late 80s which was
virtually the same quality - really incredible...
Heck51
"There have been great name changes in operas......
One of my favorites though was a tenor in the 1960s named Morris Stern, who
changed his name to Mauro Lampi. (Stern translating to star -- which got
changed to lamp, with an "I" added to Italianize it). Now that is imaginative."
My favorite operatic moniker was the Hungarian[??] soprano -
Sylvia's Ass....er...um....Sylvia Sass... :)
ansermetniac
dgall...@mediaone.net says...
> but then
> what do I
> know?"
>
>
Anybody who relies on the unpredictability of putting a plant in his
mouth and trying to vibrate it to achieve their musical goals cannot be
too smart :-)
Abbedd
Matthew B. Tepper
> Raymond Hall wrote -
>
> "I wouldn't recommend Solti's *recording* of the Concerto for Orchestra
> to my worst enemy."
>
> then you would be hurting him severely!! he'd be missing out on an
> outstanding performance.
Ray needn't recommend it to me. I have Solti's 1981 CSO recording, and
while it wouldn't be my first recommendation, it's certainly not bad. ;--)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Raymond Hall
news:e87e1a2e.03121...@posting.google.com...
| Raymond Hall wrote -
|
| "I wouldn't recommend Solti's *recording* of the Concerto for
| Orchestra to my worst enemy."
|
| then you would be hurting him severely!! he'd be missing out on an
| outstanding performance.
Try listening to some other recorded performances of the CfO. Any will
suffice.
Both yourself and Ansermetriac have just proven your own bigotry of the
first order. This is a *recorded* music classical group, and we are now not
allowed to disparage any conductor, LEAST of all Solti, whose recordings ALL
need to be used for landfill for another trailer park. Your recommendations
will be given a wide berth for any future reference by myself.
When an orchestra such as the CSO, has been under the command of such giants
as Martinon and Reiner, and had to suffer under the "Screaming Skull" for so
long, then it is proof that all is not well in this world.
And to think, that conductors such as Serebrier are still around, and would
have really suited the position. But then a conductor/engineer/composer of
his calibre would have been wasted in the middle of Bundy country. Also, the
fact that there are a few Solti fans, and who have to remind themselves of
the odd occasion when the orchestra decided to do ALL the work, (as I should
imagine would be the case in any Solti performance) is quite indicative (to
me) of their musical tastes, and their sense of fair play.
Mr Watkins has described to me what many people already know about Solti. I
am grateful to Mr Watkins that he did. One can only see, read and hear, what
one can see, read and hear.
Now, go ahead, and try some more cheap shots. Cheap conductor - cheap
listeners.
ansermetniac
haxxr...@bigpond.com says...
> Both yourself and Ansermetriac have just proven your own bigotry of the
> first order.
>
Ray
If I knew what you were talking about I could answer this. Can you be
specific. And who is "Yourself"
Abbedd
Raymond Hall
news:MPG.1a4d4b3e81bee9c6989a75@localhost...
Much to quick to make a cheap remark, to something I wrote which I left
myself wide open for. Strange how raw the nerve ends are, on those who can
tolerate a conductor (whose first syllable coincides with the first syllable
of charlatan) who allows the orchestra to lead him, was a *unt into the
bargain, and yet say nothing whatosever about the way soloists, and real
musicians such as Brendel, et al are given rough treatment, as though they
were committing a crime even approaching a piano.
One thing is for sure. Your Ansermet, was an infinitely greater musician,
than (S)arlatan could ever have been, even in his widest dreams. The
testimony and proof is there for all to hear in recordings.
But cheap shots are not forgotten. They may be forgiven.
We all have our opinions, and I hold mine dearly.
David7Gable
>tiresome regularity.
Precisely the trouble with rmo is the things that turn up with tiresome
regularity.
-david gable
ansermetniac
haxxr...@bigpond.com says...
I still do not know what you are talking about. Who is charlatan? And
did I say anything to offend you
Abbedd
Raymond Hall
Oh, just forgit it. If you meant no offence in your post following Heck51's
post, then I'm quite prepared to take your word for it. Misunderstanding
maybe.
Happy holidays.
Regards,
PS: (charlatan = Solti)
ansermetniac
Rayt
I said something about reeds.Did you misunderstand me? Isn't HEck a
bassoonist?
Jeff
Happy Holidays. enjoy your summer as we go into Winter
Curtis Croulet
> regularity.
As though it never happens here! :-)
Raymond Hall
|
| Rayt
|
| I said something about reeds.Did you misunderstand me? Isn't HEck a
| bassoonist?
Haven't a clue. If he is, then I take it he wasn't jumped on by the
Screaming Skull at some time.
<g>
| Happy Holidays. enjoy your summer as we go into Winter
Yes, it is warming up. Too much as per usual. Subtract 10 degrees C and it
would be ideal. Actually, the best thing about Australia, is its winters.
Gorgeous. Have never worn an overcoat in 25 years. No need. The snow looks
good on TV though, and we watched the Christmas Story for the zillionth time
a few days ago, to remind ourselves of what it was like at Christmas, when
back in the UK. Yes, and I know it is a Doodle film, and we are doomed to
watch it for the rest of the millenium.
<g>
David7Gable
>> regularity.
>
>As though it never happens here! :-)
It happens everywhere in life. But rmo is much worse than life. And much
worse even than what rmcr has become of late.
-david gable
David7Gable
Do you really think so? He's not one in the modern sense of "fraud," that's
for sure. Do you mean that his senses of pitch and rhythm were not up to the
task that he nevertheless earned his living at? Because this is demonstrably
untrue. You do not stand in front of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and
PRETEND that you can conduct a piece by Elliott Carter.
-david gable, by no means Solti's biggest fan
Raymond Hall
news:20031220005910...@mb-m11.aol.com...
I always pronounce Solti with the same consonant (sound) as I pronounce
charlatan. But you mustn't take everything that I say with such utter
literalness, but you seem to persist, so I will gabble on some more. I
actually do reckon there was a fair bit of charlatan involving Solti. Just
listen to the breathless chaos that is Solti's own countryman's Concerto for
Orchestra, and then listen to Haitink's early version on Philips, never mind
Reiner's recording, which isn't that special imo, but it suffices. Same lack
of poise, and lack of build up, (just bulldoze through regardless), again
from Solti that fortunately doesn't mar Martinon's superbly exciting account
of the Miraculous Mandarin. Solti seems to think that by charging through
music, full bore, head down, introduces excitement. How wrong he was.
Needless to say, I haven't one Solti recording in my collection, and I am
not only proud of it, but the quality of the musicmaking in my collection
has improved considerably. Not that I had much Solti anyway. I saw the light
a long time ago. Just look at a Solti video, and then tell me this isn't
music that is in the process of being totally brutalised.
Wagner doesn't really interest me that much, and in any case, I am waiting
to get to hear the Boulez Ring which I have on LP when the right gear has
been located. I've heard much of Solti's Mahler, and exactly the same effect
is got. Either he doesn't understand the music, or he brutalises it, and
that is difficult to do with Mahler. Strange how Kubelik puts Mahler into a
totally different perspective to my ears, and more importantly Walter. Maybe
Kubelik knows the music. In fact I KNOW Kubelik and Walter know the music.
With Solti, I always have my doubts.
As far as Elliot Carter is concerned, much of my doubts regarding him as a
composer, in fact actually hinges around whether the few recordings there
are of this admittedly complex music, IS really and truly understood by all
involved. And how much, in fact, Carter's intentions are realised. If I was
absolutely sure that Carter's intentions were realised as close as possible
to what Carter intended, I would run to get hold of the various copies. If
Haitink can put Solti in the shade (and I do have a very high respect for
Haitink) in his own music, how much faith do you think I am going to have
listening to Solti's (er sorry), the CSO's Carter?
Heck51
"Anybody who relies on the unpredictability of putting a plant in his
> mouth and trying to vibrate it to achieve their musical goals cannot be
> too smart"
or very smart, after all, if one plant is no good, try another -
now, however, what about those whose entire professional lives may
depend on the untimely appearance of an unwanted zit on or about the
labia surrounding the oral orefice??
;)
Heck51
"Try listening to some other recorded performances of the CfO. Any
will
suffice."
I have - many many performances. Solti's is one of the very best.
"This is a *recorded* music classical group, and we are now not
allowed to disparage any conductor,"
Who said that?? you're free to voice any opinion you wish...are you
willing to extend the same privilege to others??
you're free to hate Solti's guts if you want, and I'm free to think
that you are an incompetent and uninformed listener for what I view as
a wildly incorrect opinion.
"LEAST of all Solti, whose recordings ALL need to be used for landfill
for another trailer park."
You don'tlike his recordings?? don't buy them - others will, and
have...
"When an orchestra such as the CSO, has been under the command of such
giants
as Martinon and Reiner, and had to suffer under the "Screaming Skull"
for so
long, then it is proof that all is not well in this world."
The CSO with Solti at the helm is arguably the greatest orchestra to
ever exist - I'm not saying that it necessarily is, but it must
certainly be considered amongst the top nominees.
"Also, the fact that there are a few Solti fans,"
really, quite a few - generally, I'm not a big fan of industry awards,
but all those Grammy awards were not earned for incompetence.
Apparently quite a few people thought things were done at least
competently.
"when the orchestra decided to do ALL the work, (as I should
imagine would be the case in any Solti performance) is quite
indicative (to
me) of their musical tastes, and their sense of fair play."
So all of those wildly cheering, applauding, SO, audience members who
were ecstatically jumping for joy at the conclusion of all the
Solti/CSO concerts I attended are, according to you, tastelss fools
with no sense of fair listening or appraisal??
that's a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say??
"Cheap conductor - cheap listeners."
you really take this stuff personally, don't you?? :)
not only do you hate Solti, but you expect/demand everyone else to
share your viewpoint...
sorry, I cannot oblige you...
ansermetniac
dgall...@mediaone.net says...
experience in pain.
Us brass players secretly think that real men do not need to vibrate
cane steel or animal skins
What do the reed players secretly think?
Abbedd
Heck51
<<ansermetniac" wrote in message
I said something about reeds.Did you misunderstand me? Isn't HEck a
bassoonist?>>
RH - "Haven't a clue. If he is, then I take it he wasn't jumped on by
the
Screaming Skull at some time."
Oh, much worse - I used to play for Walter Hendl - who was Reiner's
clone - great conductor, but a total prick, a rather miserable human
being. bullying, sarcastic, domineering - he loved to pick on people
and get them rattled, same as his mentor. If he knew he could rattle
someone, he was merciless.
after playing under that sort of pressure, everyone else is a
pussycat...oh, yes - I am a bassoonist...:)
Heck51
<<David7Gable wrote
PS: (charlatan = Solti)
Do you really think so? He's not one in the modern sense of "fraud,"
that's for sure. Do you mean that his senses of pitch and rhythm were
not up to the task that he nevertheless earned his living at? Because
this is
demonstrably untrue. You do not stand in front of the Chicago
Symphony Orchestra and PRETEND that you can conduct a piece by Elliott
Carter.
-david gable, by no means Solti's biggest fan>>
Very true, David
RH:
"Just listen to the breathless chaos that is Solti's own countryman's
Concerto for Orchestra, and then listen to Haitink's early version on
Philips"
done - flaccid, dull, and not very interesting
"never mind Reiner's recording, which isn't that special imo, but it
suffices."
That statement reveals veritable vistas regarding listener taste and
understanding. :)
"Just look at a Solti video,"
I do - they're wonderful - it's incredible to watch a musician who is
so "on top of" and in control of his art.
"Strange how Kubelik puts Mahler into a totally different perspective
to my ears"
Which perspective is that?? lacking in linear tension?? slack
orchestral execution?? If that's what you like...fine...go for it...
"As far as Elliot Carter is concerned, much of my doubts regarding him
as a
composer"
And this relates to Solti's conducting abilities how?? the fact that
you don't enjoy Carter's music somehow means that Solti is not
qualified to conduct his works??
"how much faith do you think I am going to have
listening to Solti's (er sorry), the CSO's Carter?"
I probably won't lose much sleep over it...ZZZzzzzzzzz...;)
Jeffrey Smith
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Robert Briggs <Trebor...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET> appears to have caused
>the following letters to be typed in
>news:3FE2032A...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>> I'm afraid the term "spiv" is lost on at least some of us non-Brits.
>>
>> Have you seen our comedy series about the WWII Home Guard, "Dad's Army"?
>
>Nope -- so much of the humor (all right, "humour") in so many native-Brit
>comedies just goes right over my head.
>
>> Private Walker (James Beck) is a "spiv" - there are
>> few things that he can't get his hands on, provided
>> the price is right.
>>
>> http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/dadsarmy/
>
>However, that description might fit a well-known service-related American
>sitcom of the 1950s or 1960s, "The Phil Silvers Show" (also known by the
>title "You'll Never Get Rich"), about a colorful slick operator named Sgt.
>Bilko who ostensibly runs his camp's motor pool, but really runs all sorts
>of confidence games.
Absolutely, Matthew, I don't know why I didn't think of Bilko, but he
is the personification of an American spiv.
Jeffrey Smith.
To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.
'It is hard to be brave', said Piglet, sniffling slightly, 'when
you're only a very small animal'.
A.A. Milne.
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:20031219221531...@mb-m12.aol.com:
We could go on, but I'd rather ask about Bruckner symphony editions.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Raymond Hall
| "Raymond Hall" wrote
|
| <<David7Gable wrote
|
| PS: (charlatan = Solti)
| Do you really think so? He's not one in the modern sense of "fraud,"
| that's for sure. Do you mean that his senses of pitch and rhythm were
| not up to the task that he nevertheless earned his living at? Because
| this is
| demonstrably untrue. You do not stand in front of the Chicago
| Symphony Orchestra and PRETEND that you can conduct a piece by Elliott
| Carter.
| -david gable, by no means Solti's biggest fan>>
|
| Very true, David
|
| RH:
| "Just listen to the breathless chaos that is Solti's own countryman's
| Concerto for Orchestra, and then listen to Haitink's early version on
| Philips"
|
| done - flaccid, dull, and not very interesting
That demonstrates perfectly, to a T, how well and carefully you listen.
| "never mind Reiner's recording, which isn't that special imo, but it
| suffices."
|
| That statement reveals veritable vistas regarding listener taste and
| understanding. :)
Reiner's CfO is a good performance. But nothing more.
| "Just look at a Solti video,"
|
| I do - they're wonderful - it's incredible to watch a musician who is
| so "on top of" and in control of his art.
LOL. The lengths a Solti fan will go, to demonstrate their misplaced faith.
Now try looking at a video of Karajan, and then you will, or might, (but I
really doubt it), realise what the definition of control means. Solti
resembles a demented chimp, dressed up as a puppet.
| "Strange how Kubelik puts Mahler into a totally different perspective
| to my ears"
|
| Which perspective is that?? lacking in linear tension?? slack
| orchestral execution?? If that's what you like...fine...go for it...
The perspective of knowing that the conductor knows what he is doing, apart
from anything else. Conveying Mahler's message as Mahler intended. Surely
you are now not bringing Kubelik into dispute? The next thing we will be
hearing is something along the lines that Solti was the only *real*
conductor that ever existed. I wouldn't start falling into the trap of
looking THAT silly.
<g>
Incidentally, you didn't mention Walter. Perhaps besides Solti, he was just
a silly old baton waver? N'est-ce pas?
| "As far as Elliot Carter is concerned, much of my doubts regarding him
| as a
| composer"
|
| And this relates to Solti's conducting abilities how?? the fact that
| you don't enjoy Carter's music somehow means that Solti is not
| qualified to conduct his works??
When you have added to my chopped phrase, (making it appear totally out of
context), that which should be added, your questions will be answered.
Typical rmcr tactic, and I am not falling for it.
| "how much faith do you think I am going to have
| listening to Solti's (er sorry), the CSO's Carter?"
|
| I probably won't lose much sleep over it...ZZZzzzzzzzz...;)
I am already asleep. Just typing on auto-pilot.
<g>
ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz
And when you have recovered your composure, go and look at a video of
Karajan. And inwardly digest. You will be a better person as a result.
<g>
Raymond Hall
| Raymond Hall wrote
|
| "Try listening to some other recorded performances of the CfO. Any
| will
| suffice."
|
| I have - many many performances. Solti's is one of the very best.
|
| "This is a *recorded* music classical group, and we are now not
| allowed to disparage any conductor,"
|
| Who said that?? you're free to voice any opinion you wish...are you
| willing to extend the same privilege to others??
Apparently you are not, as your first reply well indicated.
| you're free to hate Solti's guts if you want, and I'm free to think
| that you are an incompetent and uninformed listener for what I view as
| a wildly incorrect opinion.
Again, you seem determined to vent your feelings towards my opinions. I
don't give a damn about yours.
| "LEAST of all Solti, whose recordings ALL need to be used for landfill
| for another trailer park."
|
| You don'tlike his recordings?? don't buy them - others will, and
| have...
The sorry few?
| "When an orchestra such as the CSO, has been under the command of such
| giants
| as Martinon and Reiner, and had to suffer under the "Screaming Skull"
| for so
| long, then it is proof that all is not well in this world."
|
| The CSO with Solti at the helm is arguably the greatest orchestra to
| ever exist - I'm not saying that it necessarily is, but it must
| certainly be considered amongst the top nominees.
ROTFL. Loudness and speed equal everything. Yes, I see now. Now tell me
another joke.
| "Also, the fact that there are a few Solti fans,"
|
| really, quite a few - generally, I'm not a big fan of industry awards,
| but all those Grammy awards were not earned for incompetence.
| Apparently quite a few people thought things were done at least
| competently.
As if the recording Industry patting itself on the back, had anything to do
with artistic quality. Now tell me another joke.
| "when the orchestra decided to do ALL the work, (as I should
| imagine would be the case in any Solti performance) is quite
| indicative (to
| me) of their musical tastes, and their sense of fair play."
|
| So all of those wildly cheering, applauding, SO, audience members who
| were ecstatically jumping for joy at the conclusion of all the
| Solti/CSO concerts I attended are, according to you, tastelss fools
| with no sense of fair listening or appraisal??
| that's a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say??
No. Au contraire. They had no real musical alternative. It is a about an 8-9
hour flight to Amsterdam or London. Orchestra Hall is closer to those that
live there. I was fortunate when there. I saw and heard Giulini.
| "Cheap conductor - cheap listeners."
|
| you really take this stuff personally, don't you?? :)
On the contrary. I really couldn't care less. But I will always reply to
those that think their opinions matter over those whose opinions deflate
their paper idols. YOU made the first reply. Remember. Evidently you take
things far too personally. Now go and watch a video of Karajan. It will calm
you down, and enable you to regain some control.
<g>
| not only do you hate Solti, but you expect/demand everyone else to
| share your viewpoint...
| sorry, I cannot oblige you...
The reality is, you just cannot bear it when someone criticizes your idol.
Period. The rest of the world can enjoy Solti as much as they are able to.
But my ears remain mine. You, on the other hand, evidently hate Karajan, but
I couldn't care less. Your loss.
David7Gable
>But my ears remain mine. You, on the other hand, evidently hate Karajan,
It's possible to be reasonably unenthusiastic about both of them. I know I am.
Still, I have heard performances from both that I liked. I was very surprised
to discover that I rather like an RAI broadcast performance of Oedipus Rex with
Gedda and Karajan from 1952.
-david gable
Norman Schwartz
> Karajan. And inwardly digest.
Karajan didn't even sense when it was over, call it quits, and walk away
like a gentlemen, causes indigestion.
Heck51
"Reiner's CfO is a good performance. But nothing more."
<<That demonstrates perfectly, to a T, how well and carefully you
listen.>>
LOL!! 'hoist with your own petard'!! i love it!!
"Now try looking at a video of Karajan,"
Oh i have - often - and I find his technique of conducting with his
eyes closed a gross technical shortcoming - one that is virtually
guaranteed to produce lackluster, stifled results - which of course
happened regularly with HvK.
eliminating one of the main lines of communication between conductor
and player [eye contact] is flawed, plain and simple... bad technique,
that puts a low ceiling on the results achievable...:) ...next..
"The perspective of knowing that the conductor knows what he is doing,
apart
from anything else."
yes, that would be Solti - he knew exactly what he wanted, and what he
was doing...
"Conveying Mahler's message as Mahler intended."
and you are privy to this information on some privileged wave-length??
LOL!!
"Surely you are now not bringing Kubelik into dispute?"
His Mahler is not remotely as good, as powerful, or as convincing as
Solti's performances.
"The next thing we will be hearing is something along the lines that
Solti was the only *real* conductor that ever existed."
ROFL!! your words, not mine!!
"Incidentally, you didn't mention Walter."
You didn't ask me. I love Walter's Mahler, and I love many other
readings by Walter - great conductor.
"When you have added to my chopped phrase,"
You were making a point regarding Carter's music, and somehow this was
supposed to be a criticism of solti - you don't like Carter, so Solti
obviously doesn't know how to convey the meaning of Carter's music??
You'll excuse me - but I don't see the line of argument there. LOL!!
"I am not falling for it."
but if some musical demagogue gets up and conducts with his eyes
closed, you're ready to award him status as a some deity or other. you
fall for alot of things, obviously...
"I am already asleep."
How would we tell?? :)
"go and look at a video of Karajan. And inwardly digest."
and outwardly regurgitate. :]~~~~<
"You will be a better person as a result."
Yes, cleansing the stomach does bring welcome relief...
All Hail to Solti!!
I think i'll listen to his Swan Lake highlights - the Waltz is
absolutely dynamite!!
Richard Schultz
:> Have you seen our comedy series about the WWII Home Guard, "Dad's Army"?
:
: Nope -- so much of the humor (all right, "humour") in so many native-Brit
: comedies just goes right over my head.
You are being too kind. The reason that you don't find those comedies
funny is that they are in fact not funny -- even worse than U.S. sitcoms,
if such a thing can be imagined.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"