A question for Tom Deacon
ansermetniac
In another thread you claimed that my statement that a reissue costs
less than a new recording is amateursville.
So, I bow to the true professional. Here is a scenario. What are the
approximate costs of production of the following:
A glaring ommision in the Ansermet Cd legacy is the Haydn Symphonies 90
and 22 which has not even appeared in Japan. Recorded in 1966 it was
recorded in superb sonics. And it got a superb review in HF. So if
Universal went into the vault and made a digital transfer of the master
tape and added the 1949 Clock(from the tape original not the 78 parts)
to fill the disc how much would it cost compared to :
recording these three pieces with a major conductor and orchestra from
their roster.
And considering that if they wanted to sell the new recording at full
price they would have to advertise, how much profit is yielded in each
case. Keeping in mind that the Ansermet, which can be sold at a cheap
price can be offered to catalgues etc, to customers who do not care
about performer.
# 90 has few competitors and # 22 is now pretty popular.
Abbedd
Dan Koren
news:MPG.1a6556a69173f1c09896ef@localhost...
Are you asking Tom to factor in his fees as well?
Just curious....
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
Well, let's get rid of a few of your premises right off the bat.
Haydn doesn't sell, Jeffrey. Except in small quanities. And only the
"name symphonies". Does 90 have a "name"? I think not. 22 is more
fortunate: The Philosopher. But it strikes me as a bit serious, don't
you think? Philosophers are usually grim people. Maybe the symphony is
too. Anyway, why take a chance on it. The Clock is much better. But
the recording is SO old. Uncommercial. No stereo. No DDD.
This is an unsaleable product, Jeffrey. Right off the bat you have a
loser. It may be wonderful musically. But that's beside the point. We
have to sell this sucker.
Now to the remastering.
Depends upon the condition of the tape. I have no knowledge of that.
But you can guess that a good transfer of the original masters would
require about 2000-3000 Euros of "studio time". That is because the
studio is in Germany, workers there are paid a living wage, are
unionized, and do excellent work.
The Clock may require many hours of work, as the tape will be old,
frail, edits will have come loose with age. All of that is
unpredictable.
Let's say another 2000 Euros for that one.
Then you will have to package this product.
Figure700 Euros for a decent text - we are not talking noted Haydn
scholar here, just run of the mill music critic ( Hurwitz, perhaps?)
Then you will need to design a cover, prepare the bottom inlay card,
etc., let's say another 1000 Euros.
Then you will have to prepare a glass master. The factory costs are
not cheap. You may need to redo it. Figure another 2000 Euros.
So far you haven't produced a single CD and you have spend about 9000
Euros. It may be as low as 7000 Euros. But still.
So, now you have a CD you will have to "market" it. Here is the
biggest problem, because you have an unmarketable product.
Advertisements in Gramophone? FonoForum? Fanfare? ARG? Well just fill
in any amount you like here. Shall we say 10,000 Euros to do a nice
job, with some repeat ads to keep the interest going?
Then you will have to pay the retailers to put the product in their
stores. It is called "In Store Placement". How much money do you have,
Jeffrey? Tower will want a bundle. Or a cut price. Or a cut price on
the next Bocelli album. Anyway, this is not cheap.
And remember, for each album you sell you will have to pay royalties
to the Ansermet estate, presuming he had a royalty contract, of
course. I have no knowledge of that. But you should figure that he
did.
Whew!
Now, who, precisely are going to be your potential buyers for this CD?
This is up to you to fill in.
Then, perhaps, I could predict the sales and figure out a P&L
statement for this product.
TD
Eric Grunin
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
Your questions are good, but don't expect to get useful answers from
TD.
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
How much to record these three symphonies new. You did not say.
And if Haydn does not sell why did Goodman and Fischer record most of
the symphonies.
2000-3000 euros to make a digital copy of the 90 & 22, 50 minutes of
music. I will do it for free.
Abbedd
deac...@yahoo.com
And so will I.
What does that prove?
Universal is a business, not a cottage industry. It has overhead,
labour costs, unemployment insurance, health benefits, etc. etc., like
any legitimate business. You expected something else?
There is no point in estimating the costs of rerecording these
symphonies until we get the "costs" of remastering, producing and
marketing the old product.
Incidentally, there are lots of "blanks" for you to fill in. I don't
see any answers.
TD
Simon Roberts
[snip]
>And if Haydn does not sell why did Goodman and Fischer record most of
>the symphonies.
Fischer recorded all of them, the first person to do so since Dorati. Goodman's
is, as far as I can tell, the only projected complete something-or-other to be
abandoned by Hyperion, and it was abandoned largely due to low sales. Other
projected completes abandoned for financial reasons (as far as I can tell): Weil
masses and symphonies, Hogwood symphonies, Marriner masses, Solomons symphonies,
Fey symphonies, and probably others I'm forgetting. I have no idea what the
demand would be for the Ansermet disc you would like to see made, but I suspect
it would be rather small. How well do his Paris symphonies sell?
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
I don't have the figures any more, Simon. But the Marriner Paris
symphonies sold very well on Duo. I brought the Ansermet Paris
symphonies out myself on Double Decca. The Bruggen sold much less
well, but at top price, of course. Bernstein? I simply don't know. And
so on.
It has to be said that Haydn is a slow selling composer compared to,
say, Mozart or Beethoven.
Ansermet is, apart from a very few pieces of repertoire closely
associated with his name, a relatively poor seller. Most of his
recordings have only been reissued in a spotty fashion. Part of this
is the "sound" of his orchestra, which is an acquired taste, which not
enough people are willing to acquire, and part of this is the fact
that he travelled very little outside of his home base, thereby having
no recognizable personality. We are simply not in the Toscanini,
Karajan, or Solti sphere here, musical considerations aside, of
course.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
According to Terry McEwen who established London Records in the U.S. His
recordings got excellent reviews in HF. None of the pettyness that
appeared in Gramophone.
He sold before, why can't he sell again? Marketing errors, obviously. Do
they release his recordings in Japan because they like to lose money?
Decca should have not allowed Ivan March and his cronies to bash
Ansermet, especailly when they spent oodles of gelt for advertising.
Another record industry blunder.
ReadsCulshaw's book. He agrrees with me that the suits at Decca left a
lot to be desired as businessmen
Abbedd
M. Weston
> On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 04:35:52 GMT, ansermetniac
> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >Tom
> >In another thread you claimed that my statement that a reissue costs
> >less than a new recording is amateursville.
Tom, with nastiness to spare:
"It costs more because nobody will buy it."
Can I nominate membership for a universal killfile?
Sgolescu
Mr. Weston:
>Can I nominate membership for a universal killfile?
>
Yes, you can but, please, don't keep us breathless guessing who would be the
Elected One.... ( :
regards,
SG
Simon Roberts
[snip]
I have no idea what the
>>demand would be for the Ansermet disc you would like to see made, but I suspect
>>it would be rather small. How well do his Paris symphonies sell?
>>
>>Simon
>
>I don't have the figures any more, Simon. But the Marriner Paris
>symphonies sold very well on Duo. I brought the Ansermet Paris
>symphonies out myself on Double Decca. The Bruggen sold much less
>well, but at top price, of course. Bernstein? I simply don't know. And
>so on.
It perhaps wasn't clear, but I was wondering specifically about Ansermet's Paris
symphonies.
By the way, when Philips licensed Marriner's to MHS c. 1989, someone
inadvertently (I assume) sent them Colin Davis's 82/83 instead by mistake (much
to my annoyance; I bought the set largely for Marriner's 82). I wrote and told
MHS about the mistake, but nothing came of it as far as I know.
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
40-year old reviews are largely irrelevant to today's consumer.
Terry McEwen has been dead for a decade.
None of the pettyness that
>appeared in Gramophone.
The Gramophone critics were fairly unanimous about the Ansermet
recordings. They still are, and they are a different bunch of critics.
>He sold before, why can't he sell again? Marketing errors, obviously.
Sorry, Jeffrey. Again you leap to conclusions without any knowledge or
information. Solti's recordings never sold as well as Karajan's.
Bernstein's DG recordings never sold as well as his Columbia USA
recordings. Go figure. Some things are very difficult to pin down.
>Do they release his recordings in Japan because they like to lose money?
The Japanese are anxious to release every recording which ever
existed. Anywhere. Anytime. By almost anybody.
They, too, are not making money, Jeffrey. They are generating
turnover, and not enough of it, I can tell you.
>Decca should have not allowed Ivan March and his cronies to bash
>Ansermet, especailly when they spent oodles of gelt for advertising.
Decca did not, does not, control the editorial policy of Gramophone
critics.
>Another record industry blunder.
More bullshit!
>ReadsCulshaw's book. He agrrees with me that the suits at Decca left a
>lot to be desired as businessmen
And Culshaw left a lot to be desired too.
So what?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
Is that because you think the statement has merit?
Or are you just spamming?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
Since MHS used CDs to make their CDs (they simply refused to pay for
the costs of making a tape master, i.e. $300.), the mistake was
undoubtedly theirs. You might better have alerted Philips to the
mistake as Marriner would have been receiving royalties for a
performance by Colin Davis!
MHS, as Mark Stenroos can corroborate with personal experience, is a
strange and wonderful company. I once used to have to deal with a toad
of a man by the name of Leslie Gould, based in London, who used to
want to put the 3 Tenors on MHS for $4.98 and things like that. He is
dead now, may God bless his soul, but his cheapskate thinking lingers
on.
I wouldn't have anything to do with MHS if I were you, Simon. I have
also heard horror stories about their business practises with members
who want to quit. Truly horrific.
And I wouldn't have had anything to do with them at Philips if I had
had my own way either, as the profits from their sales to the Philips
company were pitifully small. Not really worth our while.
Too bad about the mistake on the Haydn symphonies.
TD
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> By the way, when Philips licensed Marriner's to MHS c. 1989, someone
> inadvertently (I assume) sent them Colin Davis's 82/83 instead by mistake (much
> to my annoyance; I bought the set largely for Marriner's 82). I wrote and told
> MHS about the mistake, but nothing came of it as far as I know.
>
Hey, you too, Simon? That happened to me! I got the set and was struck
by the interpretive and sonic discrepancies between 82/83 and the
remaining symphonies. As soon as I did spot comparisons between the MHS
and my Philips CD of Davis/Concertgebouw I knew a major screwup had
occurred. I sent the set back and got a refund, but never a word of
apology or explanation. I quit MHS shortly after that.
deac...@yahoo.com
Very wise decision.
It is a very sleazy outfit.
Just ask Mark Stenroos.
TD
Dan Koren
> very little outside of his home base,
>
>
> According to Terry McEwen who established London
> Records in the U.S. His recordings got excellent
> reviews in HF. None of the pettyness that appeared
> in Gramophone.
So what? Good reviews are neither necessary nor
sufficient to sell a product.
> He sold before, why can't he sell again?
The market for classical recordings in the 200x
is very different from the market for classical
recordings in the 196x. Many artists who sold a
lot of records then would barely sell at all now
(thinking about Mme Haebler).
> Marketing errors, obviously.
See above.
> Do they release his recordings in Japan because
> they like to lose money?
No, simply because Japan is a different market for
classical than either the US or Europe.
> Decca should have not allowed Ivan March and his
> cronies to bash Ansermet, especially when they
> spent oodles of gelt for advertising.
> Another record industry blunder.
I think this is a very naive explanation. No amount
of marketing can make up for a rapidly shrinking
market.
> ReadsCulshaw's book. He agrrees with me that the
> suits at Decca left a lot to be desired as businessmen.
So have suits everywhere else, and in every other
market and industry. Business people should be
required to perform in underwear ;-)
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I also think that all posters to this ng should be required to post
with minicams operating, so that we could see who they are.
We might all get an enormous laugh, which we sorely need from time to
time, Koren, after reading a lengthy disquisition on Josef Hofman's
brilliant Waldstein Sonata, or yet another plea for more Bruckner with
Otto Krutschnik and the Lower Slobovian Philharmonic.
And I think a dress code should be brought into effect. No more
posting in the alltogether, Koren. We wouldn't want you to get excited
in public.
TD
Alan Watkins
In the 1990's and NOT involving an orchestra I approached Nimbus
Records in the UK to ask them the cost of producing a recording of a
solo artist on to a CD.
There were no copyright complications either for the artist or for the
composers featured but the figures were interesting to Old Chap.
Transferring the tape to a master CD was a £400 flat fee (plus VAT).
Production costs of the subsequent CD's were quoted as follows:
0-2000 £3.50 per CD; 2000-5000 CDs £3 per CD; 5000-10,000 £2.25 per
CD; 10,000-15,000 run £1.99. They broke it down further: on the
O-2000 run the jewel case cost was 7p per CD; on 10,000-15,000 run
that dropped to 2p per jewel case, sleeve notes (supplied) plus
printing very similar figures. T
The artist concerned died not long after this inquiry and has been
issued commercially and so I did not proceed with my "project". The
figures are, of course, almost ten years out of date but I have to say
they were substantially less than I would have guessed at the time.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Nimbus went bankrupt, Alan, in case you didn't know.
Now I am not surprised.
TD
Alan Watkins
In all honesty, I would think that would depend utterly on WHERE you
recorded them and who with.
If you came to the Czech Republic (not that we understand Haydn of
course) to record TWO symphonies (not exceeding a total of 70 minutes
in length) from scratch would cost about $18,000 for up to 67 players.
It would buy you the Czech Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra (an amalgam
of CPO and Prague Radio musicians) or Pro Musica Prague (ditto, as to
orchestra).
It would give you 16 hours of recording time (including rehearsals)
but would NOT include the conductors fee (down to the hirer) or any
editing fees (down to the hirer). It would include the hotel costs of
up to three people but not air fares for anyone.
It would include the hire of the Rudolfinum or another recording venue
such as Czech Radio Studio 1. Prague churches/museums would be
slightly cheaper as a recording venue but you might incur instrument
transportation fees. You would save a bit, but not a lot. You could
save more money by recording out of Prague but again instrument
transportation fees would be payable. If you were doing small
orchestra stuff (with just timps or no percussion) it would probably
pay you to go out of Prague. The only accepted paid porterage in CR
are for instruments such as timpani, harp, zylophone, vibraphone,
tubular bells etc or any instrument that the player could not
"reasonably" be expected to carry over a distance.
If you are doing something very simple (like a brief TV commercial)
you could buy a four hour slot for up to 45 players (including piano)
for about $6500 all in including mixing (if required). Most
commercials are recorded at the Czech TV studio which has a full range
of percussion instruments so there is no "porterage" fee involved..
We do a lot of commercials :):) I believe I am enshrined on a
Cadbury's chocolate commercial for one note on a Bass Drum but I have
never seen (nor heard) the results of my labours.
If you want to go cheaper than that, Ansermetiac should pack even
warmer clothing and head for Russia. I think at least some of the
Russian fees include the conductor but I am not absolutely certain
about that. I think the Novosibirsk orchestra do an all in package
including the conductor but others may not. I assume they are cheaper
than we are because we are losing work to Russian orchestras.
REG
but I think the sound is just not good enough.
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a6637ec258a13319896f6@localhost...
REG
surprise, that living standards of very well trained musicians are just
awful, it really breaks my heart. There's a second orchestra in St P, I'm
forgetting the name right now, and it's just sad at how cheaply they will
work to keep themselves together.
"Alan Watkins" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.0401...@posting.google.com...
REG
second the nomination.
"M. Weston" <tint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e6319bb.04010...@posting.google.com...
ols
best Haydn CD is the Clock and the Military with Prague Chamber
Orchestra without conductor. These are really magical, inspired
performances! No kidding! They have made good things earlier(the the
Prague and the Haffner, say), but this is sensational. I would record
Haydn with them, and then show the result to a world famous conductor
like Barenboim or Ashkenazy, and make them pay $10000 to have their
name on the CD cover (to be able to go into history as great Haydn
performers). This would accelerate the sale, and everybody would live
happily thereafter.
ols
alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message news:<62c8649c.0401...@posting.google.com>...
Dan Koren
news:vf7pvvk9jhi09dmbu...@4ax.com...
>
> or yet another plea for more Bruckner with
> Otto Krutschnik and the Lower Slobovian
> Philharmonic.
>
You will never hear a plea for more Bruckner
from me. You're probably thinking of Ramon
Khalona or Lani Spahr.
dk
Dan Koren
Performing without conductor is an
Eastern European specialty. There
was also a Russian orchestra that
did that (Persimfans?).
You see, EE orchestras had to be
ready to perform even when their
conductors were purged overnight.
;-)
dk
"ols" <sle...@online.no> wrote in message
news:9ccd6161.04010...@posting.google.com...
Dan Koren
> wrote:
>
> >"ansermetniac" <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.1a6637ec258a13319896f6@localhost...
> >> In article <mlpovvog6nlmm7bvb...@4ax.com>,
> >> deac...@yahoo.com says...
> >>
> >> suits at Decca left a lot to be desired as businessmen.
> >
> >
> > So have suits everywhere else, and in every other
> > market and industry. Business people should be
> > required to perform in underwear ;-)
>
> I also think that all posters to this ng should be
> required to post with minicams operating, so that
> we could see who they are.
Who wants to watch moose?
dk
Simon Roberts
>He sold before, why can't he sell again? Marketing errors, obviously.
Not obvious at all. Tastes change, for one thing. I can't imagine any amount
of marketing making his recording of the Haydn trumpet concerto competitive.
Do
>they release his recordings in Japan because they like to lose money?
What works in Japan (assuming it does) doesn't necessarily work anywhere else.
>Decca should have not allowed Ivan March and his cronies to bash
>Ansermet, especailly when they spent oodles of gelt for advertising.
>Another record industry blunder.
Really? You want advertisers to directly control what reviewers write? How
would they prevented him anyway? Bribes to the editor of Gramophone? To
someone at Penguin?
>ReadsCulshaw's book. He agrrees with me that the suits at Decca left a
>lot to be desired as businessmen
Even if that's true, it hardly follows that Ansermet doesn't sell merely as a
result of bad marketing etc.
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
Thank you, Simon. Somehow I hope we get through to Jeffrey.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
What got through is that someone here does not know the power of
leveridge in the business world.
Gramophone cannot survive without advertising dollars. Therefore Decca
CAN control what Gramophone says by pulling their checks. Julian Hirsch
of Stereo Review just passed. He never met a piece of audio he did not
love. Especailly when a full page color ad came in the same issue with
the review
My product is such that I cannot be leveridged. I did the leveriding
when neccesary.
Also rememebr what BH Haggin said about a certain critic He is a fine
critic when he reports on what he hears and not what he would like to
hear.
Musical performances with fine sound, by Ansermet can't be sold? That is
a marketing error.
The 12 CD set of Ansermet Frech Music did not sell. Why? Decca/London
botched the marketing. First, they should have been available sperately
and D/L should have marketed it for what it was. At least they sold
two sets, to me.
Jeff
Norman Schwartz
Julian Hirsch
> of Stereo Review just passed. He never met a piece of audio he did not
> love. Especailly when a full page color ad came in the same issue with
> the review
>
Most of (or all) the reviewer's income is dependent upon finding and/or
hearing differences. Two amps, etc., sound the same? who needs them? Go find
another occupation.
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>The 12 CD set of Ansermet Frech Music did not sell. Why? Decca/London
>botched the marketing. First, they should have been available sperately
>and D/L should have marketed it for what it was. At least they sold
>two sets, to me.
You were lucky, Jeffrey.
John Parry, who worked on exploitation releases for Decca for ages and
ages, dared to make one Ansermet box. When it flopped, he told me:
"Tom, never again!" and went on to make pots of money with other
artists in similar boxed sets. He also started the trend towards
budget priced capbox sets, which are now everywhere and which sell
very well.
But Ansermet? Not a chance.
I made the Stravinsky capbox, but I doubt that has sold well either.
There is just too much resistance in Decca's home market for anything
with the Ansermet name on it. France is a different story, but even
there they have had to release his recordings under different guises,
mostly composer compilations, with a little Ansermet slipped into the
mix just for the rabid collectors.
Italy, strangely enough, has managed to sell his Beethoven symphonies
in a cheap capbox taken from the Japanese transfers. But that is the
exception, not the rule.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Nobody - except Jeffrey, of course, who still lives in the 1960s -
even cares what Julian Hirsch said or wrote thirty odd years ago.
Stereo Review was a fake audio magazine. Always was.
Only TAS and the original Stereophile (the current one has long since
sold out to the advertisers, with Sam Tellig taking junkets to Europe
in payment for his favourable reviews of equipment) were quite
different.
But Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson were cut from puritan cloth, I
think.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
at all?
The fact that Ansermet Cds do not sell is only the fault of the sellers.
Can't sell Ansermet French Music? Incompetence again.
Why did the Ansermet Beethoven set sell? Maybe it is because it is the
best example of one of the valid ways to play Beethoven. How much profit
did Decca make compared to having to record them for the umptteenth
times.
Jeff
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
> Harry Pearson were cut from puritan cloth, I
> think.
>
>
today. 100o dollars for speaker cables, yeah right. If I have to hear
the word detail again I think I will scream.
Nothing beats my Bozak Symphonies(1967) for frequency accuracy and
imaging. And connected to my computer is a pair of Ar 2as with new pots.
HP calls them the best bookshelf speakers ever made. Mine are from 1964.
What has happened in the last 40 years? More treble and midrange. Less
accuracy. More gelt though. B & W 802s , what a joke.
6" woofers. Woof.
Jeff
Alain Dagher
>
> Gramophone cannot survive without advertising dollars. Therefore Decca
> CAN control what Gramophone says by pulling their checks. Julian Hirsch
> of Stereo Review just passed. He never met a piece of audio he did not
> love. Especailly when a full page color ad came in the same issue with
> the review
But is that desirable? If Gramophone (or any review magazine) functioned
in this way it would risk losing readers. If the CD review magazines go
out of business then Decca sells a lot fewer of all its records.
Then there's the fact that many people (estimates range up to 80% of the
general population) have ethics.
Alain
deac...@yahoo.com
As I said before, Jeff, you live in the past.
The Bozaks are fine for Wilma Cozart Fine, because her husband swore
by them.
But in the studio, that is to say "professionaly", she switched to the
older B&W 800s, big square monster speakers, played at an
ear-splitting volume.
The ARs were ok for their time, if far too inefficient and giving a
squeezed out sound. But HP wouldn't want to live with them today, I
assure you.
The speaker cable thing I have never seen the rational for. But I do
believe that Harry can hear the difference. I just don't want to spend
the money.
The "crock of shit" comment sounds like sour grapes. i.e. you can't
afford it.
TD
ansermetniac
al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca says...
I am referring to the excessive SRO bashing that Ivan March and his
cronies perpetuated ad infinutum and ad nauseum. Decca should have
stopped that. It only occured in Gramophone. It did not happen in High
Fidelity etc.
Critics have to have ethics too.
Abbedd
deac...@yahoo.com
It got the same advertisements that all the other boxes got. They
mostly succeeded. It didn't.
>
>The fact that Ansermet Cds do not sell is only the fault of the sellers.
Nope. It's the fault of Ansermet and his sour-sounding orchestra. An
acquired taste which not enough people are willing to acquire.
>Can't sell Ansermet French Music? Incompetence again.
When you have Munch and Monteux, who needs Ansermet?
>Why did the Ansermet Beethoven set sell? Maybe it is because it is the
>best example of one of the valid ways to play Beethoven.
You really don't read.
It sold in Italy!
>How much profit did Decca make compared to having to record them for the umptteenth
>times.
Very little, in fact. Which is the problem. His reissues don't pay for
the costs of reissuing them.
TD ( who is still waiting for the sales projections and marketing plan
for that Haydn CD. Soon your time will have run out, Jeff)
deac...@yahoo.com
Small problem, Alain.
But since the goal is Ansermet, hang the ethics if it gets those CDs
sold, right?
Wrong!
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
They also have to have standards.
And most of the old-timers at Gramophone did and do, including Ivan
March.
I don't know why you don't simply accept the fact that in the UK
Ansermet is a dead duck.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
40,000 dollars. It ain't sour grapes. Just education. Wrong again
Deacon.
I had B & W 802s for one day. It was reccommeded by a friend. The
tweeter was so loud it overwhelmed everthing else. Sounded great to the
laymen, though
And who says the Ars are inneficient. wattage is cheap today. And I
pushed two pairs with a 6 watt amp. No clipping. You speak in theories.
I speak in praticalities.
jeff
Norman Schwartz
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:m36rvv0bhn5gn5uki...@4ax.com...
> The speaker cable thing I have never seen the rational for. But I do
> believe that Harry can hear the difference. I just don't want to spend
> the money.
>
At his (our) age he is damned lucky to hear the speakers, yet alone the
cables.
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
British. Reading Gramophone proves that. There is a taiwanese saxophone
marketed in England. It is exactly the same as the other Taiwanese
Saxophones that get bad reviews. Yet it receives rave reviews in
England. Go figure.
BTW the Ansermet 12 CD French Box received no advertising in the US.
Why were the discs not avaiable individually? Except for marketing
incompetence
Stop blaming the incompetence of the record companies on someone else.
Abbedd
Dan Koren
news:8k4rvv8sg7tul3dq0...@4ax.com...
Puritans don't usually sport good hearing....
dk
Dan Koren
> In article <8k4rvv8sg7tul3dq0...@4ax.com>,
> deac...@yahoo.com says...
> > Harry Pearson were cut from puritan cloth, I
> > think.
> >
>
> That may be so but the "High End" of audio is
> the biggest crock of shit today. 100o dollars
> for speaker cables, yeah right. If I have to
> hear the word detail again I think I will scream.
>
> Nothing beats my Bozak Symphonies(1967) for
> frequency accuracy and imaging.
Are you stating this as fact -- or as opinion?
> And connected to my computer is a pair of Ar
> 2as with new pots. HP calls them the best
> bookshelf speakers ever made.
Only if you use them to shelve your books.
> Mine are from 1964.
No wonder you like Ansermet so much.
dk
Dan Koren
>
> The fact that Ansermet Cds do not sell is
> only the fault of the sellers.
That sounds like a strange view of commerce.
> Can't sell Ansermet French Music? Incompetence again.
The (putative) buyers are incompetent ?!?
dk
Simon Roberts
>What got through is that someone here does not know the power of
>leveridge in the business world.
>
>Gramophone cannot survive without advertising dollars. Therefore Decca
>CAN control what Gramophone says by pulling their checks. Julian Hirsch
>of Stereo Review just passed. He never met a piece of audio he did not
>love. Especailly when a full page color ad came in the same issue with
>the review
It would appear that you are suggesting that Ansermet can only be sold via
corruption. Maybe that's right.
Simon
Simon Roberts
>Alain
>
>I am referring to the excessive SRO bashing that Ivan March and his
>cronies perpetuated ad infinutum and ad nauseum. Decca should have
>stopped that. It only occured in Gramophone. It did not happen in High
>Fidelity etc.
Did it happen in other British publications such as Hi Fi News & Stereo Review,
Records and Recordings, EMG Monthly Newsletter and the daily/weekly newspapers?
>Critics have to have ethics too.
Is your conclusion that March and his cronies lack ethics based on anything more
than their negative reviews of Ansermet recordings? In case you haven't
noticed, hardly anyone on this ng - perhaps no-one - shares your high esteem for
Ansermet and his orchestra. Are we unethical too? Should Decca try to bribe us
to express different opinions?
Simon
Dan Koren
news:ip6rvvck1g6qahn3r...@4ax.com...
>
> I don't know why you don't simply accept the
> fact that in the UK Ansermet is a dead duck.
>
>
Is he alive anywhere else?
dk
ansermetniac
reposbible criticism. Decca should have put a stop to it in the interest
of fairness. It is quite clear that the penguins had their mind made up
before listening and reported on what they thought they would be hearing
Abbedd
ansermetniac
another. The critics in HF did not report the deficincies because they
were not there.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
> noticed, hardly anyone on this ng - perhaps no-one - shares your high esteem for
> Ansermet and his orchestra
>
So should I stop listening because of that. I think I deserve more
credit than that.
Abbedd
Simon Roberts
>>Is your conclusion that March and his cronies lack ethics based on anything more
>> than their negative reviews of Ansermet recordings? In case you haven't
>>noticed, hardly anyone on this ng - perhaps no-one - shares your high esteem for
>>Ansermet and his orchestra. Are we unethical too? Should Decca try to bribe us
>> to express different opinions?
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>High esteem is one thing but reporting on things that are not there is
>another. The critics in HF did not report the deficincies because they
>were not there.
Or maybe they were and the HF critics didn't notice (or did notice and didn't
care, or...). I can't help noticing that in the disputes over the intonation of
Ansermet's wind players that regularly pop up here, you seem to be in a minority
of one in not perceiving intonation problems. Are you suggesting that Alan
Watkins and others are unethical in disagreeing with you? If not, why claim
that March and co. are unethical if your only evidence is what they wrote in
their reviews?
Simon
ansermetniac
March etc reported on what he expected to hear. Disagreeing me with is
not unethical. What Martch and the penguins wrote about the Sro is
unethical. Same for the editor who let it get out of hand.
SRO bashing is purely a British thing.
Abbedd
Simon Roberts
Of course not. That's not the point....
Simon
ansermetniac
recordings, which are most appareant in his SRO recordings, my problem?
Should I be poxed for trying to share what I hear?
I prefer the SRO Oboe playing to the playing on Ansermet's Royal Ballet
recordings. Is that a radical statement that should make be commited to
the funny farm?
Does my C.V. make my opinion on wind playing more valid than any one
elses? NO!!!! But it should garner respect for my opinion regardless if
it is against the grain. I do not whistle Dixie out of my tuchus. And
it should be known that my success in designing woodwind mouthpices,
reeds and instruments(I handle air stream and sound issues, Dave
Guardala handles mechanical issues, including his peerless hand
finishing and balancing), that I can't play, is due to my study of
Ansermet's SRO recordings, the Gran Partita in particular
Abbedd
Simon Roberts
>
>Mr Watkins et all are not unethical. They report on what they hear. Ivan
>March etc reported on what he expected to hear.
How do you know the latter is the case? (I'm not saying it isn't, merely that
you need more than the reviews to support such an allegation.)
Simon
Simon Roberts
>
>Is the fact that some cannot hear the Musicality in Maestro Ansermet's
>recordings, which are most appareant in his SRO recordings, my problem?
Actually, in a sense it is: you complain that the sole reason his recordings
don't sell is the result of a combination of Decca's marketing incompetence and
corrupt reviewing by Gramophone and Penguin. You seem unwilling to admit that
lots of people have heard his recordings and don't like them and that his
recordings don't sell well for *that* reason. They may indeed be deluded (or
deaf or have bad taste, or whatever), but that's not the point. Do you have any
good reasons to support your implicit contention that more effective marketing
would have made record collectors like his recordings more?
>Should I be poxed for trying to share what I hear?
Of course not; on the contrary, you should be encouraged. But you shouldn't get
your knickers in a twist when your attempts don't succeed and, like a certain
antagonist of yours, miss the point of comments made in response to yours.
>I prefer the SRO Oboe playing to the playing on Ansermet's Royal Ballet
>recordings. Is that a radical statement that should make be commited to
>the funny farm?
>
>Does my C.V. make my opinion on wind playing more valid than any one
>elses? NO!!!! But it should garner respect for my opinion regardless if
>it is against the grain. I do not whistle Dixie out of my tuchus. And
>it should be known that my success in designing woodwind mouthpices,
>reeds and instruments(I handle air stream and sound issues, Dave
>Guardala handles mechanical issues, including his peerless hand
>finishing and balancing), that I can't play, is due to my study of
>Ansermet's SRO recordings, the Gran Partita in particular
I don't know why you're being so defensive. For all I know you have the best
ears in New York or the Western Hemisphere, better even than my cats'. My
comments to the effect that your admiration of Ansermet is idiosyncratic are not
a criticism of your ability to listen or hear (let alone make mouthpieces),
merely a suggested additional explanation of why his recordings don't sell.
Blaming it all on marketing just isn't persuasive (well, not to me, anyway).
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
And Decca isn't British?
>
>BTW the Ansermet 12 CD French Box received no advertising in the US.
There is very rarely ANY advertising for rereleased product. I would
wager that they lost money on that box.
>Why were the discs not avaiable individually? Except for marketing
>incompetence
I suppose that was a decision made in London. But either singly or
individually they wouldn't have sold.
>Stop blaming the incompetence of the record companies on someone else.
I am not "blaming" anyone, except the artist himself, who had and has
no selling power in the market place.
I wonder if you are able to grasp that concept.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Correct.
He is living in the past.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
PLEASE! YES!!!!
Much better than sending a raft of executives to Pavarotti's wedding,
don't you think?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
Well I always heard them.
Are you deaf?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Well, it would appear that he still lives in the mind of our Ansermet
nutcase.
TD
ansermetniac
How many recordings did Ansermet sell when he was alive? Many. The fact
that they can't be sold now is because the suits that decide that are
English. They have preconcieved notions and market it that way. Poorly.
It is not becasue he has a poor orhestra. Culshaw, Ansermet's biggest
detractor called them "Competent But Mediocore" If they were to hinder
his sales do you think Decca would have recorded with them when the VPO
was under contract.
The records sold in LP form, in quantity. Why they are not selling on CD
is not Ansermet's fault and certainly the SRO.
Abbedd
deac...@yahoo.com
Good Lord.
Finally I realize that you didn't even know.
Ansermet's recordings were made by Decca because they were CHEAP!!!
Nobody at Decca cared if they were mediocre.
At that time in the history of recorded music anything would sell in
modest amounts. Decca made a fortune on Ansermet because his orchestra
cost practically nothing to record.
Sort of the equivalent today of the Hungarian Chamber Orchestra, or
the Hong Kong Philharmonic.
Where do you think Naxos got their ideas, Jeffrey?
TD
ansermetniac
anserm...@optonline.net says...
not sell because an English Company controls his legacy and has no faith
in him due to preconcieved notions of some penguins.
Culshaw did not hear the deficincies of the SRO and either do I. Maybe
Deacon shpould have had his job. I hear deficincies in Ansermet's
reocrdings with the English orchestras that hinder the Musicality. I
hear deficincies in Ansermet's PCO recordings that do not hinder the
Musicality.
Bottom line-- SRO bashing is solely a British Phenomena. I can tell
you exactly why, from a wind playing point of view, but you will not
like what I have to say, so I will say what Toscanini used to say "Aqua
en Boca"
Abbedd
David7Gable
>Goodman's
>is, as far as I can tell, the only projected complete something-or-other to
>be
>abandoned by Hyperion, and it was abandoned largely due to low sales.
[Description of comparable abandoments snipped.]
For that matter, Philips abandoned its "Complete Haydn Operas" with Dorati
because the eight they issued didn't sell all that well.
-david gable
deac...@yahoo.com
As far as I know, David, you have incorrect information.
What I heard while at Philips was that Dorati did not think that the
other operas were of interest to him.
I am not sure how many there were or are, but that is the information
I have.
TD
Dan Koren
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oelrvv447fk41t6us...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Mine are from 1964.
> >
> >
> > No wonder you like Ansermet so much.
>
> Correct.
>
> He is living in the past.
>
It's OK to live in the past.
It's not OK to hear in the
past.
dk
Steve Emerson
Alain Dagher <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> Then there's the fact that many people (estimates range up to 80% of the
> general population) have ethics.
>
Expand?
SE.
David7Gable
>other operas were of interest to him.
>
>I am not sure how many there were or are, but that is the information
>I have.
There are thirteen extant operas plus a couple more written for marionettes.
(Some of the operas he wrote for marionettes are lost.) Dorati recorded all
but the first four written for human actors and, more surprisingly, the very
last: L'anima del filosofo, better known as Orfeo ed Euridice. (That's the one
that was premiered by Maria Callas and Erich Kleiber.)
-david gable
Raymond Hall
news:btkab...@drn.newsguy.com...
| In article <MPG.1a67675196a84cc3989710@localhost>, ansermetniac says...
|
| >Alain
| >
| >I am referring to the excessive SRO bashing that Ivan March and his
| >cronies perpetuated ad infinutum and ad nauseum. Decca should have
| >stopped that. It only occured in Gramophone. It did not happen in High
| >Fidelity etc.
|
| Did it happen in other British publications such as Hi Fi News & Stereo
Review,
| Records and Recordings, EMG Monthly Newsletter and the daily/weekly
newspapers?
|
| >Critics have to have ethics too.
|
| Is your conclusion that March and his cronies lack ethics based on
anything more
| than their negative reviews of Ansermet recordings? In case you haven't
| noticed, hardly anyone on this ng - perhaps no-one - shares your high
esteem for
| Ansermet and his orchestra.
Good that you use the word "perhaps".
I for one think Ansermet deserving of far greater recognition, especially
when considering several other dead ducks spoken of with such hushed tones
in this group, such as the Fartwronglers and Mongrelbergers and other
clueless and breathless manglers and distorters of music (of whom we mustn't
diss because some get themselves and their knickers in too apoplectic a
state), and several other living farces of the podium around at present.
There are some things one has to be honest about however. The constant
dissing in Gramophone of the SRO (almost as if they had hired a trained
parrot) was quite embarrassing really, at a time when the Gramophone did,
and still does imo, hold considerable sway.
Much of Ansermet's Ravel, Beethoven and Stravinsky, are of a very high
quality. Sad really, that it goes unrecognised. I never thought the SRO was
that bad at all, but perhaps I was actually listening to the musical
argument of Ansermet's performance, rather than listening with hawk ears to
whether the pitch of a damned woodwind instrument had strayed by 0.000003%.
Makes one really want to Toscanini-ism. It really does.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
ols
In his article "Hang all the Conductors", a certain Keith Otis
Edwards has some refreshing thoughts relating to this theme.
(difficult to somehow not agree):
http://www.classicalarchives.com/articles/edwards015.html
excerpt: "In Moscow in 1922, a group of musicians took the concept of
communism to heart and formed Persimfans, an orchestra without a
conductor or leader. The arrangement worked well, and even Prokofiev
was surprised to find that they could perform his unsettled rhythms
perfectly. Persimfans lasted a decade, but then Stalin felt threatened
by the example of such a democratic institution, and he dispersed the
ensemble to various labor camps"
ols
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3ffd2544$1...@news.meer.net>...
> Performing without conductor is an
> Eastern European specialty. There
> was also a Russian orchestra that
> did that (Persimfans?).
>
> You see, EE orchestras had to be
> ready to perform even when their
> conductors were purged overnight.
>
> ;-)
>
>
>
> dk
>
>
> "ols" <sle...@online.no> wrote in message
> news:9ccd6161.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > If in Prague, you could avoid paying the conductor fee completely. My
> > best Haydn CD is the Clock and the Military with Prague Chamber
> > Orchestra without conductor. These are really magical, inspired
> > performances! No kidding! They have made good things earlier(the the
> > Prague and the Haffner, say), but this is sensational. I would record
> > Haydn with them, and then show the result to a world famous conductor
> > like Barenboim or Ashkenazy, and make them pay $10000 to have their
> > name on the CD cover (to be able to go into history as great Haydn
> > performers). This would accelerate the sale, and everybody would live
> > happily thereafter.
> > ols
> >
> >
> > alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message
> news:<62c8649c.0401...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > How much to record these three symphonies new. You did not say.
> > >
> > > In all honesty, I would think that would depend utterly on WHERE you
> > > recorded them and who with.
> > >
> > > If you came to the Czech Republic (not that we understand Haydn of
> > > course) to record TWO symphonies (not exceeding a total of 70 minutes
> > > in length) from scratch would cost about $18,000 for up to 67 players.
> > > It would buy you the Czech Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra (an amalgam
> > > of CPO and Prague Radio musicians) or Pro Musica Prague (ditto, as to
> > > orchestra).
> > >
> > > It would give you 16 hours of recording time (including rehearsals)
> > > but would NOT include the conductors fee (down to the hirer) or any
> > > editing fees (down to the hirer). It would include the hotel costs of
> > > up to three people but not air fares for anyone.
> > >
> > > It would include the hire of the Rudolfinum or another recording venue
> > > such as Czech Radio Studio 1. Prague churches/museums would be
> > > slightly cheaper as a recording venue but you might incur instrument
> > > transportation fees. You would save a bit, but not a lot. You could
> > > save more money by recording out of Prague but again instrument
> > > transportation fees would be payable. If you were doing small
> > > orchestra stuff (with just timps or no percussion) it would probably
> > > pay you to go out of Prague. The only accepted paid porterage in CR
> > > are for instruments such as timpani, harp, zylophone, vibraphone,
> > > tubular bells etc or any instrument that the player could not
> > > "reasonably" be expected to carry over a distance.
> > >
> > > If you are doing something very simple (like a brief TV commercial)
> > > you could buy a four hour slot for up to 45 players (including piano)
> > > for about $6500 all in including mixing (if required). Most
> > > commercials are recorded at the Czech TV studio which has a full range
> > > of percussion instruments so there is no "porterage" fee involved..
> > > We do a lot of commercials :):) I believe I am enshrined on a
> > > Cadbury's chocolate commercial for one note on a Bass Drum but I have
> > > never seen (nor heard) the results of my labours.
> > >
> > > If you want to go cheaper than that, Ansermetiac should pack even
> > > warmer clothing and head for Russia. I think at least some of the
> > > Russian fees include the conductor but I am not absolutely certain
> > > about that. I think the Novosibirsk orchestra do an all in package
> > > including the conductor but others may not. I assume they are cheaper
> > > than we are because we are losing work to Russian orchestras.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Alan M. Watkins
Raymond Hall
| Bottom line-- SRO bashing is solely a British Phenomena.
Dead wrong. The exchanges and nationalities in this very thread prove that
not to be the case. Au contraire. I don't see how a nation can be called
into question because of one reviewer in Gramophone.
When I was collecting LPs in the UK, I had the impression Ansermet sold
quite well. And Decca, for one, always gave him very good sound.
It is a question of hype and peer pressure. Some here, will eventually reach
the point, where they no longer feel the need to react to peer pressure, and
start listening to the actual music, rather than imagining and glorifying
who is on the podium, and what the orchestra is called.
When they do, they will begin to appreciate Ansermet's interpretations for
they are. Damned good.
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>
Interesting concept. How do you manage to hear in one decade and live
in another?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
<haxxr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1a67aa10cb511a8c98971b@localhost...
>
>| Bottom line-- SRO bashing is solely a British Phenomena.
>
>Dead wrong. The exchanges and nationalities in this very thread prove that
>not to be the case. Au contraire. I don't see how a nation can be called
>into question because of one reviewer in Gramophone.
>
>When I was collecting LPs in the UK, I had the impression Ansermet sold
>quite well. And Decca, for one, always gave him very good sound.
>
>It is a question of hype and peer pressure. Some here, will eventually reach
>the point, where they no longer feel the need to react to peer pressure, and
>start listening to the actual music, rather than imagining and glorifying
>who is on the podium, and what the orchestra is called.
>
>When they do, they will begin to appreciate Ansermet's interpretations for
>they are. Damned good.
Some of them were.
Others weren't.
And then there are those sour winds, Ray.
Perhaps you don't have a problem with them, but they simply do not
meet international standards today, and didn't even then, but people
forgave them because of Ansermet's interpretations. Today people are
less generous, as there is so much more to choose from.
And you don't need to go to Furtwangler and Mengelberg to find his
competition.
Certainly not, if you consider he was a specialist in Russian and
French repertoire.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
> but they simply do not
> meet international standards today, and didn't even then, but people
> forgave them because of Ansermet's interpretations
>
Do not speak for the world Mr Deacon. That is solely your opinion
Abbedd
Marc Perman
> The 12 CD set of Ansermet Frech Music did not sell. Why?
Decca/London
> botched the marketing. First, they should have been available
sperately
> and D/L should have marketed it for what it was. At least they
sold
> two sets, to me.
I bought several of them separately....
Marc Perman
ansermetniac
@nyc.rr.com says...
Abbedd
deac...@yahoo.com
And you thought it was something else?
That said, it would appear to be shared by many.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
Wrong again, Jeffrey.
The dealer always has the "option" to break apart multiple CD sets. It
leaves it up to him or her to decide whether to seel the set as a set
or as single CDs.
TD
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
They may have the option. But they never do.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
deac...@yahoo.com says...
else? Those with perfect ears, no holes. What, have no respect for John
Culshaw. He does not agree with you. Nor T. McEwen. Nor M Rosengarten.
Nor Dennis Johnson. R.D Darrell,Philip Hart, Harris Goldsmith, Alfred
Frankenstein etc. etc etc
Abbedd
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>In article <049svvsip26fgp2sj...@4ax.com>,
>deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:57:22 GMT, ansermetniac
>> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <as3svvsevki55vred...@4ax.com>,
>> >deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> but they simply do not
>> >> meet international standards today, and didn't even then, but people
>> >> forgave them because of Ansermet's interpretations
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >Do not speak for the world Mr Deacon. That is solely your opinion
>>
>> And you thought it was something else?
>>
>> That said, it would appear to be shared by many.
>>
>> TD
>>
>>
>Who make up the many?
The many are the consumers who don't buy Ansermet's CDs.
TD
ansermetniac
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:14:29 GMT, ansermetniac
> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <049svvsip26fgp2sj...@4ax.com>,
> >deac...@yahoo.com says...
> >> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:57:22 GMT, ansermetniac
> >> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <as3svvsevki55vred...@4ax.com>,
> >> >deac...@yahoo.com says...
> >> >> but they simply do not
> >> >> meet international standards today, and didn't even then, but people
> >> >> forgave them because of Ansermet's interpretations
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Do not speak for the world Mr Deacon. That is solely your opinion
> >>
> >> And you thought it was something else?
> >>
> >> That said, it would appear to be shared by many.
> >>
> >> TD
> >>
> >>
> >Who make up the many?
>
> The many are the consumers who don't buy Ansermet's CDs.
>
> TD
>
>
>
>
cannot sell CD's it is the fault of the seller.
Look at the Decca Classics Website and its Ansermet page. Woof. Pure
incompetence.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
anserm...@optonline.net says...
Ansermet Cds. Surely they would not do it if they could not make a
profit. But they sell CDs that you can't. WHY??????
Abbedd
Bob Reith
>Ansermet Cds. Surely they would not do it if they could not make a
>profit. But they sell CDs that you can't. WHY??????
>
>Abbedd
>
Speaking of Testament, have they changed URLs? When I go to
www.testament.co.uk I get a redirect to a UK DNS registration and host company
(http://www.123-reg.co.uk/).
Can someone else check? This has been going on for a couple of weeks, at
least. Prior to that, never a problem.
Thanks.
Bob
Gerrit Stolte
> In article <dvetvv0320tugpotc...@4ax.com>,
> deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> The many are the consumers who don't buy Ansermet's CDs.
>>
>> TD
>>
>>
>>
>>
> You avoid the issue, as always. Ansermet sold oodles of LPS. If he
> cannot sell CD's it is the fault of the seller.
While your on the mark with your first remark, your second conclusion
doesn't sound convincing. You can't take the numbers of past LP sales as
proof of anything today. Times have changed, people have changed,
preferences have changed. By your own logic, there wouldn't have been any
Ansermet LPs in the first place, since people would still be buying
Toscanini/Furtwänlger/Stokowski/Weingartner et al and the market would be
closed for anybody else.
> Look at the Decca Classics Website and its Ansermet page. Woof. Pure
> incompetence.
And which artist section on this website can be considered a "competent"
one? Today I clicked on the discography button of the Joshua Bell section.
The resulting list showed 39 entries ... including anything works by
BELLini performed by anyone.
Gerrit
Ian Bell
"Bob Reith" <rar...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040109114012...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> Speaking of Testament, have they changed URLs? When I go to
> www.testament.co.uk I get a redirect to a UK DNS registration and host
company
> (http://www.123-reg.co.uk/).
>
It's at http://www.testament.uk.com
IB
ansermetniac
gerrit...@web.de says...
man, myself, I can tell you that if your heart is not in it, you will
not be successful. Something like self fullfilled prophecy. Certainly
the geniuses that run the record companies can figure out how to sell
something now, that they were succesful at before. That is what they
are paid to do.
The blame for the classical record industry being in the toilet
(Deacon's words) is the fault of the record companies not the consumers.
Give them what they want and they will buy it, as they have done for how
many years.
The Dorati Paris Symphonies may be very good. But how many incarnations
is a consumer expected to buy. Especially when the sound is the same.
this ain't the Beatles where you can repackage the same songs 100 ways.
The marketing of the Classical Record industry has not kept up with the
market. They have not one clue as to how to sell their wares. Music is
important to most. They will spend their hard earned dollars on CDs.
Just give them what they want. Don't know what they want? Ask them
CDs are too expensive. All reissues should be sold at 5.99 a la Naxos'
new recordings. I assume Naxos is profitable. It costs me less than 25
cents to buy a cd blank. How much to buy it by the 10,000s.
Deacon and his ilk are dinasours. New blood. Now , before it is too
late.
Can't sell Music? You are either not trying hard enough or are
incompetent
Just my educated and experienced opinion
Abbedd
Bob Reith
Simon Roberts
>The dealer always has the "option" to break apart multiple CD sets. It
>leaves it up to him or her to decide whether to seel the set as a set
>or as single CDs.
Dealers in the U.S. would be reluctant to do that unless the individual discs
were also sold separately. A dealer who opened the box and couldn't sell some
of the contents would not be able to return them to the manufacture unless the
catalogue numbers of the individual discs were on file as items distributed in
the U.S. (At least, that was the case when I sold the things a decade ago.)
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>In article <dvetvv0320tugpotc...@4ax.com>,
>deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:14:29 GMT, ansermetniac
>> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <049svvsip26fgp2sj...@4ax.com>,
>> >deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:57:22 GMT, ansermetniac
>> >> <anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <as3svvsevki55vred...@4ax.com>,
>> >> >deac...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> but they simply do not
>> >> >> meet international standards today, and didn't even then, but people
>> >> >> forgave them because of Ansermet's interpretations
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Do not speak for the world Mr Deacon. That is solely your opinion
>> >>
>> >> And you thought it was something else?
>> >>
>> >> That said, it would appear to be shared by many.
>> >>
>> >> TD
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Who make up the many?
>>
>> The many are the consumers who don't buy Ansermet's CDs.
>>
>> TD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>You avoid the issue, as always. Ansermet sold oodles of LPS. If he
>cannot sell CD's it is the fault of the seller.
Sorry, Jeffrey.
But I really am beginning to think you are quite stupid.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>How do you explain that fellow British label Testament is now marketing
>Ansermet Cds. Surely they would not do it if they could not make a
>profit. But they sell CDs that you can't. WHY??????
Testament is a sort of "cottage" industry.
Stuart Brown can break even with the sales of 2000 CDs worldwide.
No major corporation can do that. The overheads and distribution costs
are just too high. One of the problems faced by the majors today, of
course, and one they are reluctant to deal with as it means laying off
thousands of personnel, many of whom are knowledgeable and talented,
and creating a "mom & pop" distribution system.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
<anserm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Can't sell Music? You are either not trying hard enough or are
>incompetent
>
>Just my educated and experienced opinion
Can't get a job in the record business? You are either not trying hard
enough or you are incompetent
Just my educated and experienced opinion.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
You have hit the nail squarely on the head, Simon.
Dealers in the USA are always thinking about what they can return
rather than what they have to sell and trying to sell it, instead of
just putting it in the bins and waiting for someone to buy it.
The returns policy in the USA (and Canada, I believe) is completely
insane. The stores don't "buy" anything. They just keep it until it
sells or, if it doesn't they return it. In the meantime with 90 days
to pay, they haven't even paid for the product during that time.
In Europe dealers actually pay for the goods. And they cannot return
them, except under very special conditions. So, they become much more
imaginative in selling the product.
The Ansermet Box was sold as a special deal. The total number of CDs
sold at a special price. If the dealer split the box, he could then
turn around and sell the individual CDs for more than they would have
sold for in the box. So, he pocketed the advantage for himself.
Very smart.
And still the Ansermet Box didn't sell.
And whose fault is it? Why Decca's of course, because they didn't
"market" it. What a load of horseshit!
If I have said it once, I have said it ten times.
Ansermet is a dead duck in the marketplace.
TD
Simon Roberts
>Bottom line-- SRO bashing is solely a British Phenomena.
If by "bashing" you mean "finding fault" that's plainly not true.
I can tell
>you exactly why, from a wind playing point of view,
That's neither here nor there unless the "bashing" is based solely on the
orchestra's wind playing.
but you will not
>like what I have to say,
How do you know?
Simon