Boulez's Schoenberg on Sony
Bloom
conducted by Mehta and Dohnanyi and the Pierrot Lunaire on Nonesuch
with DeGaetani), and I must say I've been overwhelmed. These discs
have been my first exposure to works like the Chamber Symphony and the
Five Pieces for Orchestra (which is rapidly becoming a favorite of
mine), and the DeGaetani is much more satisfying to me than the other
recording I have of Pierrot Lunaire (Boulez/Schafer on DG).
Anyway, I now want to expand my Schoenberg collection, and the CDs I
was thinking about picking up next are Boulez's Sony recordings of
Gurrelieder and Moses und Aron. All things considered, (namely, their
relatively cheap price, the fact that I have quite a few other Sony
Boulez recordings and have liked them all, and the evidence of some
limited listening comparisons) I've decided that Boulez is the way to
go for these particular Schoenberg pieces. However, if anyone wants
to try to talk me out of this decision, feel free. ;-)
Also, do these recordings come with full texts? Especially for Moses
und Aron, is a libretto included? The Sony Boulez disc is quite a bit
cheaper than most of the other recordings I've seen of this work, and
I'd hate to discover after buying it that one of the reasons for its
bargain price is the exclusion of a libretto.
-Bloom
Nicolas Hodges
Don't know about the libretti. Sorry.
I first heard Gurrelieder when PB did it at the Proms with the NYO
(c.1986?) and was overwhelmed. I never found his recording so exciting/
moving/beautiful/impressive, preferring Ozawa's. (I've not got another
since.) As someone else has said, PB's chamber version of the Song of
the Wood-dove is very beautiful indeed (and comes with his
Erwartung/Pierrot).
I've not kept up with recent recordings of Moses, but my favourite
recordings are Solti (despite inaccuracies), Gielen (60s I think) and
Boulez Sony, in that order. But it's been a long time since I listened
to any of these, as it's not my favourite Schoenberg anyway.
Apropos of nothing at all, I was just listening to Shirai and Holl's
Schoenberg Lieder recital on Capriccio, and enjoyed it a lot.
--
Nic
I reserve the right to use irony and obscure forms of humour without warning
Bruce Wheeler
I have Boulez's Moses und Aron (2 CD's with the Chamber Symphony
no 2). The libretto to Moses und Aron, in German with English
translation, is included. I haven't heard it yet, so I can't
comment on the performance. I tend to like Boulez in Schoenberg,
though.
The recordings are remastered from LP's dating from the 1970's,
explaining the low price. Boulez's recordings from this time
period (and later) are very well recorded, so sound quality
shouldn't be an issue.
I don't have Boulez's Gurrelieder CD, so I can't comment about
it.
Regards,
Bruce Wheeler
David7Gable
>I bought a couple of Schoenberg CDs recently (the London two-fer disc
>conducted by Mehta and Dohnanyi and the Pierrot Lunaire on Nonesuch
>with DeGaetani
The Mehta performances are especially sensational, but the Dohnanyi are well
played and virtuosic in their security, if not quite white hot and
"expressionist" enough for me.
Boulez's Schoenberg recordings vary wildly in temper and quality. In general,
the earlier the date, the better the performance, especially in the case of
works he has recorded more than once. His early 60's Pierrot lunaire (on Ades)
is white hot, one of the best recordings of the piece. His mid-70's Pierrot
lunaire (on Sony) is one of the dullest blandest recordings he ever made (and
it's coupled with a poorly sung Erwartung). The Sony Moses und Aron from the
mid-70's is much more involved and involving than the smooth, slick, DGG
remake, no matter how phenomenally the Concertgebouw plays for Boulez on DGG.
Unfortunately, the sound on the Sony M & A is a little murky. Of the
recordings of M & A that have been released on CD:
Gielen (Philips)
Boulez 1 (Sony)
Kegel (Berlin Classics)
Solti (Decca)
Boulez 2 (DGG)
my first choice is easily the Gielen. The Kegel seems to have the most
accurately sung Aron. My least favorite is Boulez 2. Solti is well played but
not nearly as vivid as Gielen's.
Unfortunately, I can't tell you if the Sony Boulez Moses includes a libretto,
because I bought this performance when it was first released on CD by Japanese
CBS/Sony (a now defunct designation). But all of the other releases in the
Boulez Sony edition include adequate booklets and texts for all works sung, so
I think you're reasonably safe in picking it up.
A couple of Schoenberg recordings from Sony's Boulez edition that I highly
recommend are:
Die Jakobsleiter
Accompaniment to a Film Scene
Sensational pieces, too.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:ZxubTfCf...@nicolashodges.com:
> I first heard Gurrelieder when PB did it at the Proms with the NYO
> (c.1986?) and was overwhelmed. I never found his recording so exciting/
> moving/beautiful/impressive, preferring Ozawa's. (I've not got another
> since.) As someone else has said, PB's chamber version of the Song of
> the Wood-dove is very beautiful indeed (and comes with his
> Erwartung/Pierrot).
I used to have the quadraphonic edition of Boulez' Columbia recording, and
found it beautiful if not all that engaging. I much prefer Ozawa on
Philips, which may in part be due to the fact that I heard him do this work
in San Francisco nearly thirty years ago.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
Larry Rinkel
news:20030114132929...@mb-fx.aol.com...
>
> Unfortunately, I can't tell you if the Sony Boulez Moses includes a
libretto,
> because I bought this performance when it was first released on CD by
Japanese
> CBS/Sony (a now defunct designation). But all of the other releases in
the
> Boulez Sony edition include adequate booklets and texts for all works
sung, so
> I think you're reasonably safe in picking it up.
>
> A couple of Schoenberg recordings from Sony's Boulez edition that I highly
> recommend are:
>
> Die Jakobsleiter
> Accompaniment to a Film Scene
>
> Sensational pieces, too.
>
> -david gable
For Moses und Aron, I have Boulez I and Gielen on LP, with full
documentation, and so can't tell you if the CD versions have libretti. But
if there's any opera for which a libretto is needed, this is it. It is a
true drama of ideas, centering on the philosophical question of whether the
ineffable nature of divinity can be explained without distorting its
essence. The conflict in the opera is between Moses, who perceives God as
incomprehensible, intangible, eternal, unknowable, and Aron, who tries to
convey the nature of God to the Israelites by dealing in words, images, and
miracles.
I used to think it was clear Schoenberg sided with Moses against Aron, but I
think that's an oversimplification now. If it's of interest, I'd like to
quote what I wrote on this opera for another classical music board a few
years ago:
<<Clearly Moses believes God to be incomprehensible, intangible, eternal,
and unknowable. And Moses obviously blames Aron for "corrupting" that
idealistic, abstract sense of God by dealing in images or miracles such as
the staff and the leprous hand.
But just because Moses is more dogmatic and fiercely serious than Aron seems
to be, should not blind us to some of the ironies in Moses' position.
Moses rejects images and miracles, but the very opening of the opera shows
that God himself speaks to Moses through an image, the burning bush, because
He knows full well mankind, even Moses, cannot comprehend the truly infinite
and abstract. Aron may present the people with a golden calf, but God
presents Moses with a set of tablets (a concrete image); and even though
Moses is constantly in conflict with Aron, he seems to forget that God in
that opening scene called on both brothers to collaborate: Moses to point
the way towards the ideal, and Aron to find a way to humanize the ideal, so
as to provide the people of Israel with the hope of deliverance.
Moses goes too far in his unbending idealism, and Aron as well goes too far
in his popularization. Both in their own way forget God -- Moses because he
lacks humanity, and Aron because he lacks idealism. Aron's seductive
coloratura represents one extreme, but the other is Moses, the man who
almost never sings -- and then only once, to scold Aron. And surely for a
composer like Schoenberg the portrayal of a man who quite literally lacks
music must be taken with some degree of irony.
There is perhaps no reconciliation possible between the brothers, but each
is necessary as a way towards understanding divinity. Which is why, perhaps,
they so frequently are heard together, especially in the first act.
The Israelite people, caught in the middle between two radical extremes, are
most of the time like confused children. But they manage to leave the desert
towards the promised land -- not perhaps with the lofty abstractions Moses
wishes to imbue them with, but not in the spirit of amorality depicted in
the height of the Golden Calf scene.
Schoenberg was never able to set the words he wrote for the brief third act,
where Moses triumphs over Aron's lifeless body. There was always some
ostensible excuse or other for non-completion. But on some level, I suspect
Schoenberg realized that this was not a valid resolution, for the brothers
are opposites whose continued strife is necessary. Schoenberg's God must
have realized that from the start, when He insisted they both share in the
people's liberation.>>
David7Gable
>explaining the low price. Boulez's recordings from this time
>period (and later) are very well recorded, so sound quality
>shouldn't be an issue.
. . . but unfortunately it is. Moses is not as well recorded as many other
reissues in Sony's Boulez edition.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper (Earthlink)
letters to be typed in news:20030115015059...@mb-mn.aol.com:
This was one of Columbia's quadraphonic recordings. Perhaps the mixdown
wasn't done properly?
Bloom
<LRi...@optonline.nete> wrote:
> If it's of interest, I'd like to
>quote what I wrote on this opera for another classical music board a few
>years ago:
It's definitely of interest. :-)
><<Clearly Moses believes God to be incomprehensible, intangible, eternal,
>and unknowable. And Moses obviously blames Aron for "corrupting" that
>idealistic, abstract sense of God by dealing in images or miracles such as
>the staff and the leprous hand.
<snip very interesting stuff>
This opera sounds like it was written for me. As a lapsed Catholic, I
very much lean towards Moses' way of thinking, but I'm always ready to
entertain arguments to the contrary. Just so long as they're not made
by my priest. ;-)
-Bloom
David7Gable
>This was one of Columbia's quadraphonic recordings. Perhaps the mixdown
>wasn't done properly?
>
That was my surmise. The Japanese CBS/Sony CD reissue sounded marginally
better than the LP's I used to have. Maybe the current Sony reissue will be
even better, but I haven't heard it.
-david gable
E. Bloch
text. I have to agree with other post-ers, though, in endorsing the
Gielen. I don't know how hard or easy it is to find, but it's well
worth it if you can get it.
Personally, I love the DGG Boulez Pierrot Lunaire--it's the
performance that really brought the piece to life for me. But I've
not heard the Ades recording. I don't care much for the Sony
recording.
I'm not a big fan of Boulez's _Gurrelieder_: I much prefer Ozawa.
While the first 20 minutes of the Boulez, I think, are pretty amazing,
thereafter the piece seems to die. To be sure, there are some messy
spots in the Ozawa that Boulez gets sorted out quite well, but it's
just not enough for me to go to the mat for Boulez. Of course, you
could get Rattle for the same price or less if you're order it from
outside the U.S. I haven't heard Rattle yet--although I did hear him
perform it live in Philadelphia a few years ago--one of the half-dozen
most memorable performances of my life.
The best Jakobsleiter I've heard, by the way, is in the new 10-CD
Dohnanyi set released by the Cleveland Orchestra. Unfortunately, the
set costs a bundle: I heard it on a radio broadcast (!). Oh, that
they would release it separately, a la the LSO! Dohnanyi's recording
of the Five Pieces on a London/Decca twofer is my favorite.
Unfortunately, I think Silja's unsteadiness really ruins Erwartung and
the Op. 8 songs on that set, and Mehta's conducting of the Chamber
Symphony, Op. 9, and the Variations, Op. 31, I find utterly uninspired
and uninspiring.
eb
Paul Holbach
> I bought a couple of Schoenberg CDs recently (the London two-fer disc
> conducted by Mehta and Dohnanyi and the Pierrot Lunaire on Nonesuch
> with DeGaetani), and I must say I've been overwhelmed. These discs
> have been my first exposure to works like the Chamber Symphony and the
> Five Pieces for Orchestra (which is rapidly becoming a favorite of
> mine), and the DeGaetani is much more satisfying to me than the other
> recording I have of Pierrot Lunaire (Boulez/Schafer on DG).
>
> Anyway, I now want to expand my Schoenberg collection, and the CDs I
> was thinking about picking up next are Boulez's Sony recordings of
> Gurrelieder and Moses und Aron. All things considered, (namely, their
> relatively cheap price, the fact that I have quite a few other Sony
> Boulez recordings and have liked them all, and the evidence of some
> limited listening comparisons) I've decided that Boulez is the way to
> go for these particular Schoenberg pieces. However, if anyone wants
> to try to talk me out of this decision, feel free. ;-)
It愀 sheer irony of history that the same man who had cheekily
declared Schoenberg dead in 1951, was to become one of his most
passionate champions. What Boulez has achieved with regard to the
popularization of Schoenberg愀 music during the last 30 years is
invaluable! Especially with his Sony recordings he愀 had a moulding
influence on the way we hear Schoenberg now!
In this respect alone the Boulez CDs deserve being bought, with them
also being very good!
As far as Moses&Aron is concerned I悲 choose the newer Boulez
recording with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra on Deutsche
Grammophon, and concerning the Gurrelieder I悲 choose Simon Rattle愀
recent one on EMI or, from 1995, Abbado愀 one with the Wiener
Philharmoniker (including their incomparably opulent orchestral sound
:-)).
regards
PH
Bruce Wheeler
wrote:
I just listened to the first CD of the Sony reissue. You're
right, the sound is a bit harsh in the choral passages. Not
horrible, but not especially clear, either. Thinner textures
ssound very transparent, though. It seems that the miking may
have been a little nonstandard to support the quadraphonic mix.
Apparently, Moses und Aron was recorded at the same time as the
Gurrelieder (1974 in London).
From
http://www.stereosociety.com/body_Gurrelieder.html
'It is not generally known that the Gurrelieder sessions were
interrupted by the recording of the complete opera Moses and
Aaron by the same composer. The only real problem for the
engineers here was the fact that Paul decided to record this work
with the orchestra turned through 180° compared with Gurrelieder.
Sufficient to say that the last sessions of both works were
carried out on the same day but that’s another story.'
Another interesting link on Boulez/Moses und Aron is
http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/schoenberg/as_disco/051.htm#Boulez74
Regards,
Bruce Wheeler
David7Gable
>Gurrelieder (1974 in London).
Yes, because 1974 was the centennial of Schoenberrg's birth.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Symphony, Op. 9, and the Variations, Op. 31, I find utterly uninspired
>and uninspiring.
I think Mehta's Op. 31 is as good as it gets (although I also like the live
Mitropoulos). It's much more distinctively shaped--much more distinctively
shaped--than either Boulez recording, the Solti, or the Karajan. I can't
believe the conviction with which his Los Angeles players throw themselves into
the thing. Compared to Mehta, Dohnanyi strikes me as comparatively faceless,
although the virtuosity with which the Vienna Phil is now able to play this
music is pretty unbelievable.
>Personally, I love the DGG Boulez Pierrot Lunaire--it's the
>performance that really brought the piece to life for me. But I've
>not heard the Ades recording. I don't care much for the Sony
>recording.
I've never heard Boulez's third (DGG) Pierrot, but everybody tells me it's more
lively than the second (Sony). But the first (Ades) not only sizzles: it's
spooky, as it should be.
-david gable
E. Bloch
> >Mehta's conducting of the Chamber
> >Symphony, Op. 9, and the Variations, Op. 31, I find utterly uninspired
> >and uninspiring.
>
> I think Mehta's Op. 31 is as good as it gets (although I also like the live
> Mitropoulos). It's much more distinctively shaped--much more distinctively
> shaped--than either Boulez recording, the Solti, or the Karajan. I can't
> believe the conviction with which his Los Angeles players throw themselves into
> the thing. Compared to Mehta, Dohnanyi strikes me as comparatively faceless,
> although the virtuosity with which the Vienna Phil is now able to play this
> music is pretty unbelievable.
Hmmm. Maybe I'll have to give the Mehta recording a serious
rehearing. I became familiar with the piece through the Boulez/CSO
recording: it's the interpretation (execution?) that's really lodged
in my psyche.
>
> >Personally, I love the DGG Boulez Pierrot Lunaire--it's the
> >performance that really brought the piece to life for me. But I've
> >not heard the Ades recording. I don't care much for the Sony
> >recording.
>
> I've never heard Boulez's third (DGG) Pierrot, but everybody tells me it's more
> lively than the second (Sony). But the first (Ades) not only sizzles: it's
> spooky, as it should be.
>
> -david gable
Come to think of it, I remember one of my professors--a Schoenberg
scholar--who, I believe, was also quite fond of the first Boulez
Pierrot. I suppose it's a "must hear."
And while we're on the topic of Schoenberg--I do wish someone would
see fit to reissue the Steuermann recordings of the piano music.
Those recordings are still the best I've heard of the pieces. The
first time I heard the Op. 11/1, I felt as if I could be listening to
Brahms (which is very much the point). Alas, since the recording was
made in the late 1950s (I think--1958, wasn't it?), I doubt there's
much chance of it surfacing on CD until it passes into the public
domain. Certainly the Brilliant Minds who run Sony Classical don't
give a !@$%^&*() about it. (A friend of mine who used to work at Sony
tells me that the underlings call Peter Gelb the "little Hitler." But
I digress...)
eb
David7Gable
>Dohnanyi set released by the Cleveland Orchestra. Unfortunately, the
>set costs a bundle: I heard it on a radio broadcast (!).
I would kill to hear that live Dohnanyi Jakobsleiter. I just wouldn't shell
out for the whole Cleveland Orchestra box to get it. (If anyone has it, I
would pay a reasonable sum for him or her to burn me a copy of the
Jakobsleiter, although this is the most crass plea I've ever made on the
internet.)
The Boulez Jakobsleiter is pretty damned good, but I heard a tape of a live
Holland Festival Jakobsleiter with Maderna conducting from circa 1972 that was
not to believed. I wish it would appear on one of those Italian labels
specializing in live material, but I'm not holding my breath. I know of only
three commercial recordings other than the Boulez: Inbal/Frankfurt Radio SO
(Denon), Gielen/SWR SO (Haennsler), and the Tokyo recording with somebody named
Akiyama conducting (Disques Montaigne). Are there any others?
-david gable
Mark Stenroos
As far as Gurre-Lieder, I think Boulez is far and away the best
version going. This recording puts the lie to those who believe Boulez
hasn't a "romantic" bone in his body. The pacing is expansive and the
playing and singing are superb.
I can't stand the Ozawa version and have never understood its
almost-universal admiration. It is too fast to a fault, the music
rarely has a chance to breathe and expand, and the big-name soloists
aren't all that good here (McCracken scoops his way through the piece
and Norman sings on the bottom side of the pitch for long stretches).
I'd like to hear Ozawa's reading of the work now, though. He seems to
have mellowed a bit since this recording was made, at least if the
2002 New Year's Day concert is any indication.
The Chailly on Decca is very good, but it is almost ruined by the
inelegant bleating of Siegfried Jerusalem as Waldemar (Jerusalem is
better on the Abbado/DG version). Very uncomfortable to listen to.
Back in the early 90s, I heard Zubin Mehta conduct a fabulous
Gurre-Lieder at the NYPO. Unfortunately, when they re-did the piece a
number of years later (with an almost-identical cast) he seems to have
lost it a bit. AThat's the performance Sony issued. Too bad they
didn't issue the first run.
Bruce Wheeler
wrote:
>>The best Jakobsleiter I've heard, by the way, is in the new 10-CD
>>Dohnanyi set released by the Cleveland Orchestra. Unfortunately, the
>>set costs a bundle: I heard it on a radio broadcast (!).
>
>I would kill to hear that live Dohnanyi Jakobsleiter. I just wouldn't shell
>out for the whole Cleveland Orchestra box to get it.
Interesting set of priorities ;-).
>(If anyone has it, I
>would pay a reasonable sum for him or her to burn me a copy of the
>Jakobsleiter, although this is the most crass plea I've ever made on the
>internet.)
>
>The Boulez Jakobsleiter is pretty damned good, but I heard a tape of a live
>Holland Festival Jakobsleiter with Maderna conducting from circa 1972 that was
>not to believed. I wish it would appear on one of those Italian labels
>specializing in live material, but I'm not holding my breath.
According to Wayne Shoaf's discography, this was released on LP
around 1972, although there is no sign of a CD rerrelease.
from
http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/schoenberg/as_disco/063.htm
Gertie Charlent, soprano (Seele, Sterbende); Francesco Poli,
tenor (Berufener); Nico Boer, tenor (Aufrührerischer); Arjan
Blanken, tenor (Mönch); Neil Howlett, baritone (Auserwählte);
Lieuwe Visser, bass (Ringender); Günter Reich, baritone
(Gabriel); Hilversum Radio Philharmonic Orchestra and Choirs;
Bruno Maderna, conductor (recorded: Holland Festival, 1972)
(43:27)
*Radio Nederland 6808.093/94 stereo (1972?) LP
>I know of only three commercial recordings other than the Boulez:
>Inbal/Frankfurt Radio SO
>(Denon), Gielen/SWR SO (Haennsler), and the Tokyo recording with somebody named
>Akiyama conducting (Disques Montaigne). Are there any others?
>
>-david gable
Shoaf's discography doesn't show any others. In fact, he hasn't
updated it yet to include Gielen's recording.
Regards,
Bruce Wheeler