Mahler 3rd Symphony roundup

[Andy Evans]

Interesting roundup of performances on BBC Building a Library
http://www.bbc.co.uk Click on Radio 3 and Listen Again.

The reviewer essentially liked Bernstein (Sony), Chailly, Kubelik,
Horenstein and Abbado

Hard to tell from the short extracts, but I was fascinated by Tilsen-
Thomas/San Francisco and Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle on the grounds that
they had a lightness and flexibility which was arresting. The reviewer
referred to the Zinman as "too Walt Disney".

How do these two performances work over the whole of the symphony, and
am I a bit left field to like them? I don't really like the bombastic
side of Mahler, though I did find the Geilen extract spookily Teutonic
in an insidiously attractive way (!!).

[Curtis Croulet]

> The reviewer referred to the Zinman as "too Walt Disney".

Which means exactly what?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

[John_H...@msn.com]

On Nov 17, 11:32 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
wrote:

Don't you hear "Whistle while you work" in the first mvt march? For
me, my live Boulez will suffice!
Hauser (who listened to the 3rd many, many years ago when the first
Bernstein recording came out!)

[Kerrison]

"Whistle while you work" ? .. hmmm .. isn't this the symphony that has
a finale which starts off with the old Bing Crosby favourite "I'll Be
Seeing You" ?

[jrs...@aol.com]

When did you stop listening to it? For me, my live Boulez would
suffice too if I had stopped listening back in the 70s...but are we
talking about the same live Boulez? I think yours is probably the NY
recording....

--Jeff

[jrs...@aol.com]

On Nov 17, 8:32 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
wrote:

> > The reviewer referred to the Zinman as "too Walt Disney".
>
> Which means exactly what?

Perhaps it is sculptural, and deeply reflective too.

--Jeff

[John_H...@msn.com]

My Mahler Thirds, posted once before; list in progress; add to it the
Sinopoli - some items are missing:
Symphony No. 3 in d minor (1895-1896):
I. Kräftig. Entschieden
II. Tempo di menuetto. Sehr massig. Ja Nicht eilen!
III. Comodo. Scherzando. Ohne Hast
IV. Sehr langsam. Misterioso
V. Lustig im Tempo und keck im Ausdruck
VI. Langsam. Ruhevoll. Empfunden
Abravenel on lp
Sir John Barbirolli, Halle Orchestra; K. Meyer; Ladies of Halle Choir;
Boys of Manchester Grammar School (live broadcast, 5/23/69; stereo)
CM 858
Sir John Barbirolli, Berlin Philharmonic; Lucretia West, Choir of St.
Hedwig's Cathedral (live broadcast, Feb 1969; stereo) CM 858
Eduard van Beinum, Amsterdam Concertgebouw; Nan Merriman, soprano
(live broadcast). CM 502
Leonard Bernstein, New York Phil; Martha Lipton, mezzo-soprano;
Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum; Hugh Ross, director; Boy's
Choir of the Chourch of the Transfiguration; Stuart Gardner, director
(rec 1962; 32:20; 4:50; 10:00; 17:55; 8:50; 4:10; 25:06) 2 lp
COLUMBIA M2L 275 (mono) (grey label with symmetrical black bands on
each side) (my first purchase)
Pierre Boulez, NY Philharmonic; Yvonne Minton; Camerata Singers,
Little Church Around the Corner Boys' Choir; Trinity Church Boys'
Choir, Brooklyn Boys Chorus; live October 21, 1976
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam; Maureen
Forrester, contralto; Women's Chorus of the Netherlands Radio (chorus
master: Meindert Boekel); Boys' Chorus of St. Willibrord's Church,
Amsterdam (chorus master: Toon Vranken) (32:06; 10:20; 16:48; 8:47;
4:02; 22:00) 2 lp PHILIPS PHS 2-996 (white label, marked on label
PROMOTIONAL COPY [not stamped]) (stereo)
Jascha Horenstein, London Sym Orch; Norma Procter, contralto;
Ambrosian Singers (John McCarthy, conductor); Wandsworth School Boys
Choir (Russell Burgess, conductor); John Georgiadis, violin; William
Lang, flugelhorn; Denis Wick, trombone.
(rec. ca 1970; 33:16; 9:10; 18:13; 8:50; 4:42; 22:47). cor UNICORN
UNC N 0302 (duplicated by Barclay-Crocker in USA) (stereo, 7 1/2 speed)
Jascha Horenstein, London Sym Orch; Norma Procter, contralto;
Ambrosian Singers (John McCarthy, conductor); Wandsworth School Boys
Choir (Russell Burgess, conductor); John Georgiadis, violin; William
Lang, flugelhorn; Denis Wick, trombone.
(rec. ca 1970; 33:25; 9:11; 18:15; 9:40; 4:42; 22:47 - same as open
reel tape, why timing differences, search me). 2 lp nonesuch HB-73023
(stereo)
Jascha Horenstein, London Sym Orch; Norma Procter, contralto;
Ambrosian Singers (John McCarthy, conductor); Wandsworth School Boys
Choir (Russell Burgess, conductor); John Georgiadis, violin; William
Lang, flugelhorn; Denis Wick, trombone.
(rec. Fairfield Halls, Croydon: July 27-29, 1970; 33:16; 9:10; 18:13;
8:50; 4:42; 22:47). 2-lp UNICORN UN2-75004X (stereo 1198)
Kiril Kondrashin, Moscow State Phil Society Sym Orch; V. Levko; Moscow
State Choir and Children's Choir MEZHDUNARODNAYA KNIGA MK c
0383-386(a) (stereo)
Erich Leinsdorf, Boston Sym Orch; Shirley Verrett, mezzo-soprano; New
England Conservatory Chorus; Lorna Cooke de Varon, conductor; Boston
Boychoir; John Oliver, director (rec ca 1970s; 32:13; 9:41; 16:03;
8:41; 4:23; 20:05). 2 lp RCA Vic LSC-7046 (stereo; red label,
smaller shaded dog [after shaded dog; non-dynaflex]; pressing
TRRS-6131--5S / TRRS-6134--1S & TRRS 6132--6S / TRRS 6133--4S)
Bruno Maderna, Orchestra Sinfonica e Coro di Milano della RAI; Ursula
Boese, contralto; Coro di voci bianche dell'Oratorio dell'Immacolata;
de Bergamo (live rec Milano: Jan 12, 1973; coupled with Mahler's 5th ,
7th, and 9th syms). 4 cds ARKADIA CDMAD 028.4 (stereo; Vol 18 of
Maderna series)
Dmitri Mitropoulos, New York Phil; Beatrice Krebs, mezzo-soprano; The
Westminster Choir, chorus master: John Finley Williamson (rec live
NYC: Oct 21, 1951; coupled with Mahler Sym No 3 with Mitropoulos) 3-lp
Cetra LO 514 (mono)
Dmitri Mitroupoulos, New York Philharmonic (live broadcast, 1955) CM
495
Dmitri Mitropoulos, Colonne Radio Orchestra (live broadcast) BM 1 and
BM 10
Hermann Scherchen, Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra; Sona Cervena,
alto; Women's Chorus of the Leipzig Radio; Great Radio Children's
Chorus of Leipzig (32:48; 9:18; 15:11; 9:24; 4:05; 23:29; live concert
October 1, 1960). 2 cd TAHRA 101A & B

Hauser

[Joey7]

Curtis Croulet wrote:

Overly animated and whimsical?

[jrs...@aol.com]

16 and counting. By golly, you really did stop listening...or
listing...in 1975!

After that long hiatus, why you choose to listen to Sinopoli of all
people? Not that he's a bad choice, mind you!

--Jeff

[Eric Grunin]

On Nov 17, 12:52 pm, "jrsn...@aol.com" <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:

Best laugh I've had all day.

Gehry's in trouble again, alas: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/us/07mit.html

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

[John_H...@msn.com]

> --Jeff- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I guess since 1975 Sinopoli (and I deeply regret his early passing)
was the most interesting interpretation I've come across (I'm not a
MTT fancier at all). Hauser

[Andy Evans]

> > > The reviewer referred to the Zinman as "too Walt Disney".
>
> > Which means exactly what?

I think the idea was Bambi frolicking about the forest rather than
some bloody great stag in Tennstedt, I think it was.

[J.Martin]

.
>
> The reviewer essentially liked Bernstein (Sony), Chailly, Kubelik,
> Horenstein and Abbado

The Vienna Abbado and live Kubelik, I presume?

>
> Hard to tell from the short extracts, but I was fascinated by Tilsen-
> Thomas/San Francisco and Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle on the grounds that

> they had a lightness and flexibility which was arresting....[snip]

> How do these two performances work over the whole of the symphony, and
> am I a bit left field to like them? I don't really like the bombastic
> side of Mahler

I think you might like the MTT, then. My recollection is that it's a
lighter, more rhythmicaly suple kind of M3--I rather liked how that
worked in the first movement, less so thereafter, but it sounds like
it might be what you're looking for.

"Spookily Teutonic" is a marvelous description of Gielen, btw.

J.

[jrs...@aol.com]

I tend to agree, though I think Gielen is also well worth your time.
Actually, Segerstam is quite interesting as well.

--Jeff

[Proboscis]

"Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting roundup of performances on BBC Building a Library
> http://www.bbc.co.uk Click on Radio 3 and Listen Again.
>
> The reviewer essentially liked Bernstein (Sony), Chailly, Kubelik,
> Horenstein and Abbado
>

I wholeheartedly support the recommendation of the Horenstein.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"jrs...@aol.com" <jrs...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:54363a28-ea2f-4655-b1b4-
3a9901...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> After that long hiatus, why you choose to listen to Sinopoli of all people?
> Not that he's a bad choice, mind you!

Maybe he needed some doctoring?

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!

[aravin...@wmconnect.com]

On Nov 18, 4:27 am, "Proboscis" <probos...@gmx.net> wrote:

> "Andy Evans" <performanceandme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Interesting roundup of performances on BBC Building a Library

> >http://www.bbc.co.ukClick on Radio 3 and Listen Again.

>
> > The reviewer essentially liked Bernstein (Sony), Chailly, Kubelik,
> > Horenstein and Abbado
>
> I wholeheartedly support the recommendation of the Horenstein.

Actually, the reviewer didn't recommend the Horenstein. He sampled
that recording mostly to highlight its flaws.

The final cut included Chailly, Bernstein (Sony), and Kubelik (DG, no
mention of the live performance on Audite), with Chailly winning top
honors for the combination of interpretation, playing and sound, and
Bernstein taking second place as a "budget" alternative.

AA

[aravin...@wmconnect.com]

On Nov 18, 12:53 pm, "aravinday...@wmconnect.com"

<aravinday...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 4:27 am, "Proboscis" <probos...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > "Andy Evans" <performanceandme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Interesting roundup of performances on BBC Building a Library

> > >http://www.bbc.co.ukClickon Radio 3 and Listen Again.

>
> > > The reviewer essentially liked Bernstein (Sony), Chailly, Kubelik,
> > > Horenstein and Abbado
>
> > I wholeheartedly support the recommendation of the Horenstein.
>
> Actually, the reviewer didn't recommend the Horenstein. He sampled
> that recording mostly to highlight its flaws.
>
> The final cut included Chailly, Bernstein (Sony), and Kubelik (DG, no
> mention of the live performance on Audite), with Chailly winning top
> honors for the combination of interpretation, playing and sound, and
> Bernstein taking second place as a "budget" alternative.
>
> AA

Incidentally, in case anyone is interested, Chailly's recording can be
heard in its entirety on BBC Radio 3's Classical Collection program on
Monday.

AA

[Paul Ilechko]

aravin...@wmconnect.com wrote:

> The final cut included Chailly, Bernstein (Sony), and Kubelik (DG, no
> mention of the live performance on Audite), with Chailly winning top
> honors for the combination of interpretation, playing and sound, and
> Bernstein taking second place as a "budget" alternative.

The Chailly is not bad, but I think I prefer Tennstedt overall.

[Gerard]

I don't.

[Ed Presson]

"Gerard" <ghen_nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:474087be$0$274$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...

After hearing the Mahler 3rd live some months ago, I made a point to listen
to the seven recordings I had on hand (Bernstein on Sony and DG, Lopez-Coboz
on Telarc, Salonen on Sony, Nagano on Warner, Jordan on Virgin, and Neumann
on Canyon) to see which came closest to the Row M sound I heard in
Seattle's Benaroya Hall. To my surprise, it was the Kent Nagano recording.
This is not a complete survey, obviously.

My favorite readings are still Bernstein (Sony) and Horenstein (Unicorn);
but Nagano is pretty good, too.

Ed Presson

[Elgarian]

I know that most critics hold up the Horenstein recording as the
"definitive" Mahler Third, but for some reason I've never gotten
around to adding this recording to my collection.

I have Bernstein's earlier (Sony) recording, but I find the sound on
the CD disappointingly shallow--not much body or fullness.

Here are some other versions not yet discussed; I wonder what others
here might think about any of these:

Levine/ CSO / Horne (RCA). For some reason, years ago I wound up with
this as my only recording of this work (on CD). It has the slowest
last movement I've ever heard--JL puts the "long" in "Langsam" and
wrings out every ounce of emotion that he can, out Bernsteining
Bernstein. ("I'll be seeing you" indeed!)

Abravanel/ Utah SO/ Krooskos (Vanguard). I must confess that this is
a guilty pleasure--my favorite among the several second-tier
recordings I have of this work. MA has a firm beat in the first
movement & makes the march tune into a real march. Throughout,
Abravanel's approach is non-interventionist, but the orchestra members
play their collective hearts out, and this performance works for me.
Sonically very fine, too--and I only paid $3 for this 2-CD set!

Jarvi/ RSNO/ Finnie (Chandos). Jarvi whips up the excitement when he
can, but overall this performance seems less than the sum of its
parts. He races through the last movment in 24:08--actually 59
seconds longer than Abravanel, but somehow it seems like he had a
plane to catch, whereas Abravanel's phrasing and tempi sound more
natural.

Saccani/ Budapest SO/ ? (BSO Live). Okay, I don't have this
recording, but a friend swears by Saccani & played a few excerpts for
me last weekend. I must say that what I heard of the first movement
was better than I'd expected, and he handled the bimm-bamm boys chorus
very well too. Has anyone else heard this recording all the way
through?

Regards,

John

[jrs...@aol.com]

Yes, I like it very much. Here's what I posted when I first got it:

Mahler 3 with Saccani/Budapest Phil. The orchestra is
sensational--woodsy horns, rich and pliant winds and strings, but also
rock-solid in a very contemporary way. It is much less dour and
efficient than Ivan Fischer's group proved to be when touring here a
few years ago. The opera house acoustic is a bit odd, resonant but
overblown at times. This is a passionate, rather than transcendant,
performance. Great fun, but not particularly illuminating the way a
Sinopoli or Zander or Abbado might be--but also not as grim and
intense
as Tennstedt. Instead, it moves along with some force and abandon
without losing control or sniffing some pretty flowers along the way.
The second movement is easily one of the most naturally appealing I've
heard. In the 3rd movement (the only real disappointment--it lacks
requisite dynamic contrasts throughout) the posthorn may be too loud,
but it does have a "shofar" kind of rawness that I like. I can't wait
to hear the coupling (Mahler 1--a piece this orchestra premiered).

--Jeff

[Simon Roberts]

In article <3639c8c8-5dfa-4e98...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Elgarian says...

>
>I know that most critics hold up the Horenstein recording as the
>"definitive" Mahler Third, but for some reason I've never gotten
>around to adding this recording to my collection.
>
>I have Bernstein's earlier (Sony) recording, but I find the sound on
>the CD disappointingly shallow--not much body or fullness.

If you find the sound on Bernstein's problematic (I'm not impressed by it
either), you may find Horenstein's worse, thanks in part to weird balances; the
microphones (or engineers or whatever) give absurd prominence to the timpani,
especially at the opening of the first movement, consigning everyone else to an
overresonant, distant, ineffectual murk.

Simon

[Ed Presson]

>snip<

>> Saccani/ Budapest SO/ ? (BSO Live). Okay, I don't have this
>> recording, but a friend swears by Saccani & played a few excerpts for
>> me last weekend. I must say that what I heard of the first movement
>> was better than I'd expected, and he handled the bimm-bamm boys chorus
>> very well too. Has anyone else heard this recording all the way
>> through?
>
> Yes, I like it very much. Here's what I posted when I first got it:
>
> Mahler 3 with Saccani/Budapest Phil. The orchestra is
> sensational--woodsy horns, rich and pliant winds and strings, but also
> rock-solid in a very contemporary way. It is much less dour and
> efficient than Ivan Fischer's group proved to be when touring here a
> few years ago. The opera house acoustic is a bit odd, resonant but
> overblown at times. This is a passionate, rather than transcendant,
> performance. Great fun, but not particularly illuminating the way a
> Sinopoli or Zander or Abbado might be--but also not as grim and
> intense
> as Tennstedt. Instead, it moves along with some force and abandon
> without losing control or sniffing some pretty flowers along the way.
> The second movement is easily one of the most naturally appealing I've
> heard. In the 3rd movement (the only real disappointment--it lacks
> requisite dynamic contrasts throughout) the posthorn may be too loud,
> but it does have a "shofar" kind of rawness that I like. I can't wait
> to hear the coupling (Mahler 1--a piece this orchestra premiered).
>
> --Jeff

I agree with this--it's a good description. I posted a briefer comment
several months back under the (misleading) heading of "BPO
Live" ---referring to the label and caused confusion with the Berlin
Philharmonic. I felt the bass and dynamic range of this recording seemed a
bit limited, but the latter might have been the conductor's way of keeping
the sound lovely at all times. The coupled Mahler 1st has pretty much the
same qualities, as I recall.

Ed Presson

[RX-01]

My top three choices:

1. Chailly

2. Sinopoli

3. Gielen/Hannsler

Note that I would not recommend any of these as a complete cycle. But
I find Chailly perfect on all accounts: pacing, playing, dynamics,
attention to detail, emotion.

Sinopoli is the big surprise from a very incosistent cycle (still I
find his 7th the best I have heard, along with Barenboim's). Maybe
some people will find this too perfect -- everything just sounds right
according to score. The only reason it's not my first choice, is
because I prefer Chailly's steadier tempo in the last movement. The
recording is also exceptional.

Gielen has the best 4th movement I've heard with some exotic oboe
playing
(along with Rattle -- as the Musicweb reviewer notes: "Gielen
instructs his soloist to observe literally Mahler's marking
"hinaufziehen" and perform extraordinary upward glissandi.")

RX-01

[Gerard]

RX-01 wrote:
> My top three choices:
>
> 1. Chailly
>
> 2. Sinopoli
>
> 3. Gielen/Hannsler
>
>
> Note that I would not recommend any of these as a complete cycle. But
> I find Chailly perfect on all accounts: pacing, playing, dynamics,
> attention to detail, emotion.

Agreed on the technical points.
But there's no emotion at all.

[jrs...@aol.com]

On Nov 19, 4:15 pm, RX-01 <cody...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My top three choices:
>
> 1. Chailly
>
> 2. Sinopoli
>
> 3. Gielen/Hannsler
>
> Note that I would not recommend any of these as a complete cycle. But
> I find Chailly perfect on all accounts: pacing, playing, dynamics,
> attention to detail, emotion.
>

> Sinopoli is the big surprise from a very incosistent cycle ...

Ok, so he's inconsistent (actually I find him very consistent--
consistently Sinopoli, if you know what I mean. Plus the orchestra and
the soundstaging is very consistently a major factor in the
recording).

But why wouldn't you recommend the Chailly or Gielen cycles?

--Jeff

[RX-01]

That's very subjective. For me Chailly has the most emotional finale,
along with Bernstein/DG.

RX-01

[RX-01]

> But why wouldn't you recommend the Chailly or Gielen cycles?
>
> --Jeff

I wouldn't recommend Chailly because of the following:

- His 4th is too spaciously recorded lacking in some detail. Also I
prefer more power in the climaxes of the slow movement.

- His 6th has a very slow first movement similar to Barbirolli's, but
in Chailly's hands it just drags on forever.

- His 8th is monumental and I would consider it to be one of the most
successful on disc. But he takes the First Part very slowly, which
might not appeal to everyone.

As for Gielen, there is nothing wrong with his cycle, but it's not
Mahler as we know him. Forget, Kubelik, Bernstein and all the great
Mahler conductors, Gielen's approach is leaner and looking towards the
future (Berg, Schoenberg, etc). For a supplementary cycle it is an
excellent choice, but for newcomers, well they might just get the
wrong impression about Mahler.

For a complete cycle, I'd recommend Bertini, it's also a very cheap
cycle to buy.

RX-01

[Bob Harper]

That was exactly my reaction re Chailly. Too bad, as the sonics really
are spectacularly good.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Well, I guess that's why YMMV is the most valid comment made around here :)

Bob Harper

[theola...@kpnmail.nl]

Hello,

In your list of Mahler Thirds I found the following:

Eduard van Beinum, Amsterdam Concertgebouw; Nan Merriman, soprano
> (live broadcast). CM 502

Do you know where I could find that recording. I have been searching for ages a Mahler III with Nan Merriman and am so glad I found your post....
Also looking for the Brahms Alto rhapsody which she sang several times, no recording is to find....
Thank you for answering!
Theo Laceulle

[Frank Berger]

The post you are replying to is 11 or 12 years old. You may not get a
reply. I found the list you are referring to. Who knows what CM 502
might refer to?

[Randy Lane]

I don't know about individual CDs, but I have it as part of the huge RCO Anthology set.

[Randy Lane]

The complete set

https://www.amazon.com/RCO-125-Radio-Legacy-Concertgebouw/dp/B01K8LRHII/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=RCO+Anthology&qid=1550253465&s=music&sr=1-1


It should also be in this box:

https://www.amazon.com/Anthology-Royal-Concertgebouw-Orchestra-Recordings/dp/B0000UAZD2/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=Anthology+1950&qid=1550253521&s=music&sr=1-3

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 11:57:23 AM UTC-6, Randy Lane wrote:
> I don't know about individual CDs, but I have it as part of the huge RCO Anthology set.

My initial thought, too, but that has Forrester, not Merriman. There's no sign of another Beinum Mahler three, so perhaps this is just based on a mistake, maybe someone confusing Beinum's Das Lied with the symphony?

[Frank Berger]

Or Merriman with Forrester.

[Frank Berger]

On 2/15/2019 2:03 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

Sadly, I can imagine myself spending hours and hours searching for
something that didn't exist.