Beethoven Moonlight sonata--a faster first movement?
Chris M
Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
-Chris
JohnGavin
Andras Schiff
Rugby
Agreed; in his lectures he says the first mov. is a funeral march.
Rugby
Bob Lombard
Did Beethoven indicate metronome values for the 'Moonlight'?
bl
ckho...@ckhowell.com
>
> Did Beethoven indicate metronome values for the 'Moonlight'?
>
No, and he marked it Adagio sostenuto. But he also marked it in
divided common time, so to be counted in two. It can be argued that
most performances are counted in four and therefore half the proper
tempo.
The trouble is, if you dogmatically play it in two, and maybe equally
dogmatically obey the "senza sordini" instruction (i.e. hold the pedal
down right through), will people be even half as moved as they can be
by a Schnabel-like interpretation?
Chris Howell
Johannes Roehl
Schnabel is actually one of the fastest, more than a minute (about 5
min) faster than most (about 6-7). The fastest (a little too fast) is
Gould. Either way, Schnabel is very convincing here. I don't know if
it's mainly the tempo or the phrasing or whatever, but with Schnabel I
heard for the first time that the bass line is actually a third melodic
strain in addition to the melody and the triplets.
Johannes
david...@aol.com
> Did Beethoven indicate metronome values for the 'Moonlight'?
>
> bl
No, but it's in 2, not 4.
-david gable
Chris M
even faster than Zander?
If I remember correctly Beethoven did use the tempo indication Grave
in other works, so I assume he would have used in this piece if he
really wanted it to be extremely slow. Although even at Grave, I think
it should be faster than most pianists take it.
-Chris
On May 19, 4:38 pm, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> ckhow...@ckhowell.com schrieb:
Kevin
> Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
> Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
I think the fastest I've heard it is (surprise!) Glenn Gould. Though
that might not be modern enough for you.
Kevin
Thomas Wood
"Johannes Roehl" <parr...@web.de> wrote in message
news:69e6qcF...@mid.individual.net...
I pulled out some of my recordings of the "Moonlight" sonata to check the
timings, and here's what I found:
Rubinstein 6:08
Kempff 6:02
Horowitz 5:55
Newman (on fortepiano) 5:06
Schnabel 4:52
Schnabel and Newman are probably close to what Beethoven intended. As Rosen
tersely observes: "In the nineteenth century, several editions mispresented
the time signature of this movement as C, and it is often taken at too slow
a pace. It is correctly alla breve." So often it's played as if it were a
Largo in 4/4, instead of Adagio in 2/2.
Tom Wood
Thomas Wood
"Thomas Wood" <woodt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:UWoYj.2979$hJ5....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
Some selections from the Gracenote database:
Paderewski 4:13
Schiff 4: 28
Jando 5:15
Wild and Lubin (fortepiano) 5:22
Goode 5:38
Gilels 6:06
Barenboim 6:20
Pollini 6:25
Arrau 6:48
Pletnev 7:13
Gulda 7:39
I found myself really liking the Paderewski recording....
Tom Wood
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:a9713122-6318-48eb-bf62-
2ce37a...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> The trouble is, if you dogmatically play it in two, and maybe equally
> dogmatically obey the "senza sordini" instruction (i.e. hold the pedal
> down right through), will people be even half as moved as they can be
> by a Schnabel-like interpretation?
As I recall Roger Woodward made an infamous recording of it in the '70s in
which he did indeed hold the pedal down throughout. I don't recall what kind
of tempo he used, however.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Neil
Glenn Gould! Its not one of his greatest moments!
david...@aol.com
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 10:36:58 -0700 (PDT), Chris M
>
> >Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
> >Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
>
> Glenn Gould! Its not one of his greatest moments!
When were performances of Mozart or Beethoven ever Gould's greatest
moments?
-david gable
Johannes Roehl
No Mozart, although I find some of it quite fascinating, but of his
Beethoven recordings the first two piano concertos, the disc with
variations and a few sonatas (op. 28 and op.31 come to mind) belong to
Gould's greatest moments, IMO. I love some more, admittedly
idiosyncratic ones, like his bagatelles and op.10.
As for the moonlight, I can't praise Schnabel enough, especially for the
adagio.
Johannes
Rugby
>
> When were performances of Mozart or Beethoven ever Gould's greatest
> moments?
>
His Beethoven - Liszt 5th Symphony is very good , IMHO.
Rugby
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:36c3f47a-916d-4da7-a399-
8acced...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
Here's a place where they sometimes are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Htrae
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
>
> "Thomas Wood" <woodt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:UWoYj.2979$hJ5....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>>
If Pogorelich were to tackle it nowadays, what could we expect?
15:36?
Russ (not Martha)
James Kahn
While I hate almost all of his Mozart and Beethoven, I do enjoy his recording
of K. 491.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Chris M
recording of Beethoven's fifth piano concerto and the first piano
sonata.
On May 20, 3:48 am, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> david7ga...@aol.com schrieb:
Neil
>When were performances of Mozart or Beethoven ever Gould's greatest
>moments?
Some are incredibly good, some are bonkers. Its hit and miss but
rarely dull!
Simon Roberts
david...@aol.com says...
Not sure about "greatest" but favorites include:
Mozart: Cto 24 (and, in a way, the sonatas, but only when heard for what they
are)
Beethoven: concertos; some of the variations; Opp 10 and 31.
Simon
Phil Caron
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:36c3f47a-916d-4da7...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
- Phil Caron
Marcin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo
Andras Schiff's lecture on Moonlight Sonata
Very interesting.
M.
Jerry Bank
596d2e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Chris.M...@gmail.com
says...
> Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
> Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
> -Chris
>
play this sonata. He took the adagio at a very slow tempo. It was
miraculous that it held together. But I found it absolutely wonderful.
I have no idea what the timing was, but it was slower than I had ever
heard. I will always remember it.
--
Jerry Bank
Trenton, New Jersey
Music is the language of the gods.
Bob Lombard
> In article <f16eee7a-c55b-4054-bd01-
> 596d2e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Chris.M...@gmail.com
> says...
>> Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
>> Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
>> -Chris
>>
> Here is an opposite take on this. Many years ago I heard Andre Watts
> play this sonata. He took the adagio at a very slow tempo. It was
> miraculous that it held together. But I found it absolutely wonderful.
> I have no idea what the timing was, but it was slower than I had ever
> heard. I will always remember it.
My favorite recording is by Igor Kipnis on a fortepiano. I never
noticed the pace - it's that good.
bl
Thomas Wood
"Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:Ki%Yj.91638$Uf4....@en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com...
On a fortepiano you really can play it "senza sordini" throughout, as
indicated.
Tom Wood
Larry Rinkel
<ckho...@ckhowell.com> wrote in message
news:a9713122-6318-48eb...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> Did Beethoven indicate metronome values for the 'Moonlight'?
>>
>
> No, and he marked it Adagio sostenuto. But he also marked it in
> divided common time, so to be counted in two. It can be argued that
> most performances are counted in four and therefore half the proper
> tempo.
>
Not necessarily. Note values are not correlated with tempi; e.g., a quarter
note or even an eighth note in a very slow tempo can occupy more physical
time than a whole note in a very fast tempo. The point about counting in 2
rather than 4 has more to do with the sense of pulse within the measure. One
should play (and the listener hear) a pulse of 1-and 2-and, rather than
1-2-3-4. But the actual metronomic values given to the half or quarter notes
need not be drastically different. In fact, if you follow the lead of the
bass line (as in measures 3-4 and 7-8), it becomes fairly easy and natural
to fall into the 2/2 pulse, whatever actual tempo you choose (though I don't
want it to drag).
An on-line copy of the score is found here:
http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/aek3910/index1.html
Larry Rinkel
"Chris M" <Chris.M...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d8879de7-4b5a-4ab5...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Can you (or anyone) post timings for the first movement? And is Gould
> even faster than Zander?
>
> If I remember correctly Beethoven did use the tempo indication Grave
> in other works, so I assume he would have used in this piece if he
> really wanted it to be extremely slow. Although even at Grave, I think
> it should be faster than most pianists take it.
>
> -Chris
>
when he writes Grave he is looking more for a very solemn style of execution
and not necessarily the slowest possible tempo. Examples: variation 14 from
the Diabellis (Grave e maestoso), the final section of the Gloria from the
Missa, the slow intro to the finale of op.135 (Grave ma non troppo tratto -
"not too dragged out").
Larry Rinkel
"Rugby" <steve...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:579f246e-2db8-44bb...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On May 19, 12:48 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On May 19, 1:36 pm, Chris M <Chris.Marti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
> > Moonlight sonata at a fast tempo? I'm looking for a modern recording.
> > -Chris
>
Agreed; in his lectures he says the first mov. is a funeral march.
Rugby
I can't agree with that characterization at all. I haven't heard his
lecture, but the only justification I can sense for it is the use of dotted
rhythms. But in the two most prominent pieces Beethoven actually labels as
Marcia Funebre (the op.26 piano sonata and of course the Eroica), you hear a
number of features absent from the Moonlight. In both MF's, the dotted
rhythms are more prominent, there are "military" aspects such as the
imitation of a snare drum roll in the trio of 26 and the trumpet-drum
fanfares in the trio of the Eroica, the phrases tend to be more regular and
symmetrical than in the Moonlight, and the overall form is ABA - though in
the Eroica the return to A is made much more elaborate by the introduction
of several large-scale episodes. The Moonlight opening, by contrast, is in
sonata form, includes no military elements, and the overall articulation is
much more fluid and lyrical - consider all those legato arpeggios up and
down the keyboard midway through the piece. Beethoven in fact marks the
piece very carefully, "the whole of this piece should be played with the
utmost delicacy and without dampers" (which on his fortepiano would have
created a hazy sonority not at all like the total blur you'd get by freeing
all the dampers on a modern piano). "The utmost delicacy" - some funeral
march.
david...@aol.com
>The point about counting in 2 rather than 4 has more to do
> with the sense of pulse within the measure. One
> should play (and the listener hear) a pulse of 1 + 2 +, rather than
> 1-2-3-4.
...and will regardless of the tempo once the piece is underway (which
may be Larry's point). On the other hand, it’s impossible to hear the
first two bars as being in anything but 4 because each bar consists of
four identical statements of a single arpeggiation: at any tempo our
sense of the basic pulse evolves as the piece unfolds, and our
provisional understanding -- based on the first two bars -- changes.
Although there’s no motion by half notes until measure 3, I don’t see
how the motion to a cadence in measures 8-9 can be heard as being in
anything but 2. The question of 2 versus 4 is entirely relevant to
the performer’s choice of tempo, but the divisions of virtually every
bar into both 4 quarters and 2 halves (and, for that matter, 12
triplets) is inherent in the music itself. The division into 2 halves
easily dominates the division into 4 quarters because that’s where the
action is (just as the division into 4 quarters trumps the division
into 12 triplets in the first two bars).
I was curious what tempo Rosen took in his Nonesuch recording: I have
it on LP, but I don’t have a turntable. Frustratingly enough,
Nonesuch didn’t separate the first two movements into separate tracks,
so only the total timing for the first two movements is listed on the
jacket. (That Nonesuch disc is not my favorite among Rosen’s
Beethoven recordings, I’m afraid.) Rosen’s attitude toward tempi in
Beethoven has changed as his understanding of the role of the tempi
ordinarii in music of the late 18th and early 19th centuries has
grown.
I was very interested to learn -- from Edwin Fischer by way of András
Schiff on Youtube -- about the relationship of the first movement of
the Moonlight to the scene of the Commendatore’s death in Don
Giovanni. Once noticed, the relationship is obvious. The
consequences for the tempo of the Moonlight are also obvious. On
Youtube, though, Schiff plays the music for this scene at a faster
tempo than I’ve heard in any performance of Don Giovanni. (Nothing
would surprise me less than to discover that there are recent and
supposedly “historically informed” performances that zip along at even
faster tempi in this scene.) The way that Schiff relates the dotted
figures in the first movement of the Moonlight to the dotted figures
in the Marcia Funebre from the Funeral March sonata is also
interesting and suggestive.
My current favorite performance of the Moonlight is Andrea
Lucchesini’s on EMI: the total timing for the first movement in his
performance is 5’56”. I also like Schnabel’s very much. Among
others, I’ve got Serkin and Casadesus lying around here somewhere, but
I haven’t listened to either one in some time.
-david gable
rubins...@gmail.com
rubins...@gmail.com
> >> Apart from Zander, does anyone take the first movement of the
> >> -Chris
> >
> > Andras Schiff
>
>
> bl
Mark Zimmer
I have played the movement 'senza sordini' at that tempo on the fortepiano at the San Jose Beethoven Center, and nothing from that experience serves to change my mind that faster is better. But answering the decade-old question, no, other than Zander I'm not aware of any recordings that play it that way.
Mark
rubins...@gmail.com
The tempo comparison to the 2nd movement is valid and I have played it that way, more or less,
but I believe there are other ways to calculate a possible tempo for the 1st movement.
Yes, B surely knew the difference between largo and adagio, but he also said that these word
descriptions were nonsense. Czerny said moderato andante. No comment on the pedaling yet.
David