Beethoven String Quartets

[Willem Orange]

If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

[MIFrost]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

My favorites are Turner Quartet for the Op 18 (not sure if it's still available), Takacs for the middle and Yale for the late. All excellent. Turner also has done a middle set but I've not heard it so I can't comment or recommend it.

MIFrost

[John Wiser]

"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5821f636-2601-4c58...@googlegroups.com...

I concur about the Turners but keep in mind that it's mildly HIP.
The set is OP and not going cheaply at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-String-Quartets-Ludwg-van/dp/B0000007G4

jdw

[John Thomas]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 1:59:30 AM UTC-8, Willem Orange wrote:
> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

For Op 18 the live Alban Berg Quartett http://tinyurl.com/kexhsu9

[Bob Harper]

The Turner Op. 18 is available to download on SymphonyShare. They did
Op.59/3 and Op. 74, but they do not, to my ears, match the Op. 18. Agree
about the Takacs Middle Quartets--the best part of their cycle, though
it's all good. Late quartets? Hmm. The Yale is excellent, but you might
think of the Budapest stereo set--cheap at Amazon, and one of the
reissues of the Busch (opinions about remasterings are varied and
sometimes vitriolic, but the performances MUST be heard). There's also
the Quartetto Italiano on a couple of Phillips Duos. Some find them 'too
beautiful', but I'm not one of them. It's all music that is 'greater
than it can be played (Schnabel?), so one can't have too many :)

Bob Harper

[arri bachrach]

you make a very interesti9ng statement above "it's mildly HIP" what characteristics of the playing led to that conclusion?
I had hoped to hear them on youtube , no luck

AB

[graham]

I like the Quatuor Mosaïques in the Op.18. They are also HIP.
Graham

[cooper...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:

> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

Best VFM probably is to buy a couple of excellent bargain-priced complete sets. I also like the Turner op. 18 a lot, but my favorite is the Hungarian Quartet 1967 stereo set, currently available only as part of the Greatest Beethoven Bargain Ever (no kidding): http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=148353&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=&filter=all. Probably too much of a muchness :-)

More seriously, if you buy Tokyo/RCA and Talich/La Dolce Volta, you'll have superior performances of all of the quartets in sets that complement each other nicely. The seriously underrated Tokyo set is practically being given away (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Quartets-Tokyo-Quartet/dp/B008BOWG7C/) and has superb early and middle quartets. The Talich set is a bit more expensive and its strengths are in the middle and late quartets. Supplements to those two are most desirable for the late quartets. Imo one of the Smetana SQ sets is essential, and the Hollywood, Budapest LC (Bridge), Busch, and Yale recordings are worth considering also.

AC

[Bob Harper]

Can't disagree with a single thing you say. In fact, I have all of those
you mention with the exception of the stereo Hungarian set. And I
wouldn't consider parting with any of them :)

Bob Harper

[Steve Emerson]

In article <942dc0fb-d2c3-49ae...@googlegroups.com>,

The EMI set with the Hungarians is certainly tempting, in part due to
the string trios with the Trio a Cordes Francais, not to mention
Tortelier/Heidsieck in the cello sonatas. I don't know the Cluytens
symphonies.

The Tokyo set also includes one of the few great performances of the Op
29 quintet. I found the Opus 18 quartets spotty, however. A few were
terrific, others actually seemed a bit oafish.

The Smetana analog set of late quartets I agree on fully; Opp 127, 130,
132, and 133 are all superb. Of course this starts to indicate the fault
in the whole approach; you still don't get a great Op 131 or Op 135....

SE.

[metrosout...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:

> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices????

Early: Turner (HM)
Middle: Takacs (Decca)
Late: Smetana (Supraphon):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000F0H3PU

[Oscar]

Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.

[Herman]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 11:27:06 PM UTC+1, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> More seriously, if you buy Tokyo/RCA and Talich/La Dolce Volta, you'll have superior performances of all of the quartets in sets that complement each other nicely. T

The way I hear it those are two not so great sets.

Particularly the Talich is overrated. I have no idea why: this is a quartet that is distinctly outclassed by quartets of the sameish generation (i.e. strating in the nineties). Just because they use a 'legendary' name doesn't make them a better ensemble.

[cooper...@gmail.com]

Very constructive, Herman, and thanks for this fine example of the straw man fallacy. (Who advanced the idiotic proposition that the name of an ensemble has anything to do with its quality?) Have anything of substance to contribute?

AC

[Bob Harper]

Except, Herman, that the Talich set is as follows (review header in MusicWeb):

Ludwig Van BEETHOVEN (1770-1827)
Complete String Quartets
Talich Quartet (Petr Messiereur (violin I); Jan Kvapil (violin II); Jan Talich Sr. (viola); Evzen Rattay (cello))
rec. 1977 - 1981, Église, Notre-Dame du Liban, Paris, France.

IOW, the longest-lived version of the quartet, NOT the 'newish one'--which I've heard. They're pretty d----d good. Dislike them if you choose, but at least get your facts straight.

Bob Harper

[Herman]

That's the recording I have, on Calliope. I guess the Dolce website kind of threw me (they're listing the young ensemble), but the thing is I still was underwhelmed by the Talich set on Calliope, which was recommended by a lot of people.

[Herman]

If I were to recommend Beethoven quartet recordings I would suggest a mix of the Budapest, the old Juilliard set, the Smetana on Supraphon and the Alban Berg Qt for the late quartets. I like the Italiano, too, in the middle quartets.

[lgan...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 4:25:57 PM UTC-6, Herman wrote:
> If I were to recommend Beethoven quartet recordings I would suggest a mix of the Budapest, the old Juilliard set, the Smetana on Supraphon and the Alban Berg Qt for the late quartets. I like the Italiano, too, in the middle quartets.

Although I know and love the orchestral repertoire, I have come very late to the string quartet, and to the Beethoven quartets in particular. As I get older, my affection for chamber music is growing, so I will be exploring recording alternatives for the great quartets. A few years ago I acquired very cheaply a BMG boxed set of all the Beethoven quartets with the Guarneri Quartet. Although I would prefer a bit more room ambience to the sound, I find the performances eloquent and musical. How are the Guarneri recordings regarded by this group, and am I missing anything special about this music by not having other versions?

Mark

[Bob Harper]

That's fair. I don't agree, but I think we can agree that it's good
there are many choices.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

With the exception of the ABQ (I love the Teldec set of early stuff, but
I've never understood what the shouting was about re their Beethoven), I
agree with all of those.

Bob Harper

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 24.02.2015 00:07, lgan...@gmail.com wrote:
> am I missing anything special about this music by not having other versions?

Probably not. Music of that strength does not depend on interpretation
to make its point. What is left is fine tuning.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Steve Emerson]

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.

Op 18/1 is.

SE.

[ro...@verizon.net]

> > am I missing anything special about this music by not having other versions?
>
> Probably not. Music of that strength does not depend on interpretation
> to make its point. What is left is fine tuning.
> --
> Lionel Tacchini

You guys always have a way of making me feel like a need to run out and buy more CDs...lots more. I have multiple sets of the symphonies, piano sonatas, and concertos but until reading this I was satisfied with my lone set of the quartets by Quartetto Italiano. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some shopping to do.

[John Wiser]

"Steve Emerson" <mrfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bd57d2b-61f9-479e...@googlegroups.com...

> On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
>> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.
>
> Op 18/1 is.
>

Thereafter, routine establishes itself. Without being in any respect technically defective,
they're as bland as Quartetto Italiano's without the latter's beguiling tonal luxuriance.

I've omitted to express any Beethoven quartet preferences beyond the Turners' Op. 18 set.
My all-time keepers include, but are not confined to, the 1960s Smetana Quartet coupling
of Op. 18/4 and Op. 59/3 (Westmnster), Busch Op, 59/1 (CBS), Janacek Quartet Op. 59/2
(Westninster), New Music Quartet Op. 59/3 (Bartok Records), Tatrai Op. 74, (Telefunken)
1940's Budapest Op. 95 (Columbia), Smetana Quartet analog Op. 127 (Supraphon), Busch
Op. 130 (CBS), Smetana analog Op. 132 (Supraphon).

jdw

[howie...@btinternet.com]

How about Hagen for op18?

[Lionel Tacchini]

Well, I just meant to advise in the opposite direction but since you
don't want it otherwise, I must tell you that no proper understanding of
this seminal body of works can be respectable without the Vegh Quartet
and one really ought to know the Gewandhaus and Takacs.

Did anyone mention the Juilliard?
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Bob Harper]

On 2/23/15, 9:35 PM, John Wiser wrote:(snip)

>
> I've omitted to express any Beethoven quartet preferences beyond the
> Turners' Op. 18 set.
> My all-time keepers include, but are not confined to, the 1960s Smetana
> Quartet coupling
> of Op. 18/4 and Op. 59/3 (Westmnster), Busch Op, 59/1 (CBS), Janacek
> Quartet Op. 59/2
> (Westninster), New Music Quartet Op. 59/3 (Bartok Records), Tatrai Op.
> 74, (Telefunken)
> 1940's Budapest Op. 95 (Columbia), Smetana Quartet analog Op. 127
> (Supraphon), Busch
> Op. 130 (CBS), Smetana analog Op. 132 (Supraphon).
>
> jdw
>

All good. The Smetana Op. 127 from 1971 (?) is one of the greatest
recordings of anything ever made.

Bob Harper

[Herman]

yeah, it's really good. And thank you for not reverting to the "they own 127" phrase,

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-10, Steve Emerson wrote:

Concerning op.131 and op.135, have you ever heard Bernstein's recording?:

http://www.1000recordings.com/music/string-quartets-opp-131-135/

[Herman]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 9:38:22 AM UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Concerning op.131 and op.135, have you ever heard Bernstein's recording?:
>
> http://www.1000recordings.com/music/string-quartets-opp-131-135/

Yeah, they're horrible.

[Lionel Tacchini]

He's recorded that?
Oh, that's one of those recordings to hear before dying. I suppose it's
meant to make it easier.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Gerard]

"Bob Harper" wrote in message news:AkVGw.763424$%M6.4...@fx13.iad...

All good. The Smetana Op. 127 from 1971 (?) is one of the greatest
recordings of anything ever made.

================

Hm, there are many of those greatest recordings ever made ....
But I have a recording by the Smetana Quartet of opus 127 made in 1961. Is
that the 'wrong' one? Or is it also one of the greatest recordings of
anything ever made?

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 24.02.2015 11:02, Gerard wrote:
> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:AkVGw.763424$%M6.4...@fx13.iad...
>
> All good. The Smetana Op. 127 from 1971 (?) is one of the greatest
> recordings of anything ever made.
>
> ================
>
> Hm, there are many of those greatest recordings ever made ....

Some are greatester than others, though.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Herman]

The 1961 is not identical tot the 1971 one. I think the latter is only available in Japan, coupled with 131.

[Bob Harper]

Since it's PD, I don't suppose they can :) Besides, I've never bought
that particular trope. There are great performances, buy not, for music
like Op. 127, THE great performance.

Bob Harper

[richard...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 5:27:06 PM UTC-5, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
> > If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.
>

> Best VFM probably is to buy a couple of excellent bargain-priced complete sets. I also like the Turner op. 18 a lot, but my favorite is the Hungarian Quartet 1967 stereo set, currently available only as part of the Greatest Beethoven Bargain Ever (no kidding): http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=148353&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=&filter=all. Probably too much of a muchness :-)
>
> More seriously, if you buy Tokyo/RCA and Talich/La Dolce Volta, you'll have superior performances of all of the quartets in sets that complement each other nicely. The seriously underrated Tokyo set is practically being given away (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Quartets-Tokyo-Quartet/dp/B008BOWG7C/) and has superb early and middle quartets. The Talich set is a bit more expensive and its strengths are in the middle and late quartets. Supplements to those two are most desirable for the late quartets. Imo one of the Smetana SQ sets is essential, and the Hollywood, Budapest LC (Bridge), Busch, and Yale recordings are worth considering also.
>
> AC

Thanks for the pointer to the French EMI Beethoven Collector's Edition set. I bought it when it was released. I already had the LPs of the Cluytens symphonies and the Hungarian Qt. Both are excellent sets and neither should discourage purchase by anybody. However for me the discovery of the set was the Heidsieck piano sonatas, which while quite different from Gulda (Decca, Orfeo, Amadeo) are at least as good.

I can't really answer the original question, as almost any performance of the quartets seems good while I'm listening to it- the music takes over.
On LP I have the Busch Qt on CBS and World Record Club (EMI), the Hollywood Qt, the Vegh Qt stereo, Amadeus Qt stereo. Of the stereo recordings the Vegh are probably the best- until I listen again to another group!
CDs are another story: Italian, Vegh mono, Alban Berg EMI ADD and DDD, Lindsays (which in some moods really sweep the field as they seem carried away with the music themselves), Alexander Qt, Guarneri, Tokyo (RCA), Takacs Qt (Decca). I have not found any complete duds.

[Bob Harper]

The performance in the box of the Late Quartets (Supraphon SU 3870) is
from 1961. The one to which I refer is on Denon/Supraphon COCO-73303,
and was recorded on 6/8-9/1971. It's coupled on that disc with the same
Op. 131 that's in the box.

Bob Harper

[Willem Orange]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

Any opinions on the Medici set on Nimbus????

[John Wiser]

"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d3e851c1-6f85-4328...@googlegroups.com...

They habitually underplay everything,
apparently a matter of collective temperament.
I suppose this is better than the Lindsays
smarmy overplaying, but not much.

jdw

[John Wiser]

"Gerard" <ghend-nos...@live.nl> wrote in message
news:2bcaa$54ec4c3c$54686658$27...@news.ziggo.nl...

I had in mind the one in this set:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abeethoven+127+smetana&page=2&keywords=beethoven+127+smetana&ie=UTF8&qid=1424790628

jdw

[jrsnfld]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, John Wiser wrote:
> "Willem Orange" wrote in message

> > On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
> >> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would
> >> be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted
> >> before but I was interested in current choices.
> >
> > Any opinions on the Medici set on Nimbus????
> >
>
> They habitually underplay everything,
> apparently a matter of collective temperament.
> I suppose this is better than the Lindsays
> smarmy overplaying, but not much.

Maybe it's a matter of individual temperament here, but I find plenty of value in the Lindsays' consistent hypersensitivity to emotional temperature. They do this with everything.

They've never sounded insincere to me and this approach seems especially appropriate in Beethoven. "Carried away", to quote Richard, above, is a good way to put it, maybe, but even that implies a certain impropriety which I don't feel.

Many listeners in this newsgroup have complained over the years that the Lindsays are technically insufficient. Certainly they're not a refined group. There are many better examples of the "art" of the string quartet. But this has never bothered me.

--Jeff

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I certainly enjoyed the Medici op 127. I have the box but haven't yet explored further. Thanks for reminding me.

[Gerard]

"John Wiser" wrote in message news:fy0Hw.1931003$FX2.1...@fx18.iad...

===============

That's exactly the twofer I have.

The recording dates are:
- op. 127: 1961, 4 - 7 April
- op. 131: 1970, 15 - 29 June
- op. 132: 1967, 23-28 January
- op. 133: 1965, 29 Sep. - 8 Oct.

So I'm afraid that I do NOT have one of the greatest recordings ever made.

[metrosout...@gmail.com]

Only if you're naive enough to expect the Vienna Philharmonic to sound like a string quartet. I love this recording for what it is, not for what it isn't.

[metrosout...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 12:54:32 AM UTC-5, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:

> How about Hagen for op18?

You'd be hard-pressed to find them, as the Hagen's Beethoven is spread over multiple discs on a couple of different labels, and mostly OOP. And I don't believe that they've recorded all of the Op. 18 quartets. I love the passion and energy of their performances, as well as their technical finish - they're every bit as virtuosic as the Emersons, without making it their raison d'etre.

[Willem Orange]

Actually I think I am less interested in refinement and more interested in the drama of the works

[Bob Harper]

Maybe not, but you have some pretty good ones :)

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Didn't LB once describe this as his greatest, or at least favorite, of
all his recordings?

Bob Harper

[Lionel Tacchini]

That was part of the recording contract in oder to secure minimum sales.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[John Wiser]

"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:d3ca98cb-e9bc-4a43...@googlegroups.com...

> Actually I think I am less interested in refinement and more interested in the drama of the works
>

You can do that to the full without having to put up with a storm of crappy intonation, factitious
inflections,
and a disinclination or inability to make distinctions between primary and secondary elements of
discourse.
They played with that bogus air of brilliance and virtuosity for the entire arc of their career.
People who enjoy orchestral expansions of quartet music will probably find them muy simpatico.

jdw

[Bob Harper]

They appear to have done 1, 3, 4, & 5 from Op. 18, with 3 & 5 readily
available on their new label Myrios, 1 & 4 on rather pricey DG discs.

It is a great shame that they never completed their Beethoven cycle on
DG, but perhaps they'll make up for it on Myrios (for whom they've done
Opp. 18/3, 18/5, 59/2, and 135 (second time). Only Op. 18/2 & 6, Op.
59/3, and Op. 74 remain to be done. It would be nice for DG to gather
their recordings together in a box, but I'm not holding my breath.

Bob Harper

[Willem Orange]

OK - who would you suggest??

[Steve Emerson]

In article <2bcaa$54ec4c3c$54686658$27...@news.ziggo.nl>,

My preference is actually for the one from 1961. Of course the other is
good too, but knowing the '61 intimately, I found the 1971 a bit rote.

There are lots of terrific performances of Op 127; a statement I might
not make as to the other late quartets. It's only that there happen to
be several Op 127s that are either revelatory or just played with a
limberness and intimacy (as well as guts) that you hardly ever
encounter. The 1961 Smetana and especially the Tatrai are real
standouts. I never get tired of the Yale's either.

SE.

[cooper...@gmail.com]

You've just named my 3 favorites. I don't use "revelatory" much, but I think it applies to the Tatrai op. 127. What's your problem with opp. 131 and 135, Steve? No go-to recordings at all?

AC

[Steve Emerson]

In article <06UGw.442800$uA4.3...@fx21.iad>,
"John Wiser" <jic...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> "Steve Emerson" <mrfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9bd57d2b-61f9-479e...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> >> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never
> >> heard it.
> >
> > Op 18/1 is.
> >
>
> Thereafter, routine establishes itself. Without being in any respect
> technically defective,
> they're as bland as Quartetto Italiano's without the latter's beguiling tonal
> luxuriance.

>
> I've omitted to express any Beethoven quartet preferences beyond the
> Turners' Op. 18 set. My all-time keepers include, but are not
> confined to, the 1960s Smetana Quartet coupling of Op. 18/4 and Op.
> 59/3 (Westmnster), Busch Op, 59/1 (CBS), Janacek Quartet Op. 59/2
> (Westninster), New Music Quartet Op. 59/3 (Bartok Records), Tatrai
> Op. 74, (Telefunken) 1940's Budapest Op. 95 (Columbia), Smetana
> Quartet analog Op. 127 (Supraphon), Busch Op. 130 (CBS), Smetana
> analog Op. 132 (Supraphon).

I notice you say "but are not confined to." But I also notice you don't
mention an Op 131. Which is probably the most elusive of the works. The
two that kill me are the quite-different Vlach (Supraphon) and Juilliard
(RCA). Any keepers for you?

SE.

[cooper...@gmail.com]

The Hagen/DG op. 95 is posted on Symphonyshare. It's one of my two favorite recordings of the work, the other being the Skampa's (Supraphon).

AC

[cooper...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 12:37:02 AM UTC-5, John Wiser wrote:
> "Steve Emerson" <mrfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9bd57d2b-61f9-479e...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> >> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.
> >
> > Op 18/1 is.
> >
>
> Thereafter, routine establishes itself. Without being in any respect technically defective,
> they're as bland as Quartetto Italiano's without the latter's beguiling tonal luxuriance.
>
> I've omitted to express any Beethoven quartet preferences beyond the Turners' Op. 18 set.
> My all-time keepers include, but are not confined to, the 1960s Smetana Quartet coupling
> of Op. 18/4 and Op. 59/3 (Westmnster), Busch Op, 59/1 (CBS), Janacek Quartet Op. 59/2
> (Westninster), New Music Quartet Op. 59/3 (Bartok Records), Tatrai Op. 74, (Telefunken)
> 1940's Budapest Op. 95 (Columbia), Smetana Quartet analog Op. 127 (Supraphon), Busch
> Op. 130 (CBS), Smetana analog Op. 132 (Supraphon).
>

> jdw

I could happily live with almost all of these (I do, in fact), but I'm not so keen on the Busch 59/1. The Talich really excel in this work, imo; also Budapest/LC (Bridge).

AC

[Bob Harper]

Ooh, cynical today, aren't we Lionel :)

Bob Harper

[Herman]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:15 PM UTC+1, metrosout...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> Only if you're naive enough to expect the Vienna Philharmonic to sound like a string quartet. I love this recording for what it is, not for what it isn't.

It's like Bernstein's playing showboat air-guitar to one the most beautiful pieces in the quartet literature, making it sound like gloopy movie music.

That's all.

[Lionel Tacchini]

Did he do the Art of Fugue too? Just wondering.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[John Wiser]

"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:36dfe521-8cab-40a5...@googlegroups.com...

> OK - who would you suggest??
>

The ones I've already suggested. The point is, tension and drama are built in, it doesn't take any
kind of histrionic execution to bring it out. Good playing is easy enough to hear but Hrll to put
into words.
It isn't just precision or "refinement."

jdw

jdw

[Steve Emerson]

Pleased we concur on those Op 127s, Alan. In Opp 131 and 135, I just didn't think the Smetana were at their best. The Vlach in the former and the Janacek in the latter (Supraphon in both cases) are great favorites here, and ditto the Juilliard RCA recordings of both, as it happens.

BTW, I fully agree on the merits of the Talich Op 59/1.

SE.

[metrosout...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:40:11 PM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:

> OK - who would you suggest??

The Alexander Quartet's second traversal:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Quartets-Alexander-Quartet/dp/B002XDE9GI

[howie...@btinternet.com]

In fact, Steve, I could probably name more recordings of op 131 which seem special than any other Beethoven quartet, maybe because it's the one I've explored the most, I don't know. In addition to Vlach and Juilliard, there's Smetana (Denon) and Calvet, and the Petersen. The really elusive late one is op 135.

[mrfi...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-8, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> In fact, Steve, I could probably name more recordings of op 131 which seem special than any other Beethoven quartet, maybe because it's the one I've explored the most, I don't know. In addition to Vlach and Juilliard, there's Smetana (Denon) and Calvet, and the Petersen. The really elusive late one is op 135.

Glad we seem to agree that the Smetana Denon performance of 131 outdoes the earlier analog account. I think what I meant was that, absent a brilliant performance, the quartet doesn't really hang together. E.g., why end this elaborate monster with a march? Or, what is really going on in all that quiet meandering of the fugal first movement? The celebrated long, central movement is not easy to interpret either, but its place in the whole is easy enough to figure.

By contrast, Opp 127, 132, and 135 all work fairly well via a decently intelligent, decently played performance, at least provided you can hear all the voices clearly. (I noted my likings in Op 135 elsewhere in the thread -- Janaceks (Supraphon) and Juilliard (RCA).) However, an Op 130 that does everything right is also, for me, not so easy.

SE.

[Ray Hall]

richard...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 5:27:06 PM UTC-5, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 4:59:30 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:

The first Lindsays, the studio Alban Berg, Takacs, and Italiano are my
sets. I think they encompass all I need, and in decent sound.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Bob Harper]

I have these, and while they are flawlessly played and recorded, I can't
help feeling they're a bit Oaklandesque (i.e., is there any 'there'
there'?). While by no means as empty (to my ears) as the Vanska
recordings of the symphonies, I'm still left vaguely dissatisfied. Given
the playing and recording, I'd like to like them more. Time to give them
another try, I suppose.

Bob Harper

[richard...@gmail.com]

This is the Alexander Qt set I have. One listening added it to the 'not again for a long time' pile.

[Frank Berger]

Did Mitropoulos ever record his orchestrations of op. 131 and 135? He
performed at least op. 131 in Boston and, I suppose, in Minneapolis.
Isn't it odd that DG recorded Previn in the string orchestra version of
op. 131 only 10 years after Bernstein (and it's not an improvement),
also with the VPO strings.

There is a Mahler orchestration of Beethoven's op. 95 quartet, recorded
by Dohnanyi and the VPO again.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[Bob Harper]

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid I'm going to find :( But I'll give it a shot.

Bob Harper

[Herman]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:03:26 PM UTC+1, mrfi...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> Glad we seem to agree that the Smetana Denon performance of 131 outdoes the earlier analog account. I think what I meant was that, absent a brilliant performance, the quartet doesn't really hang together.

Go to a live performance and you'll see.

These are typically the type of problems one creates by trying to be an armchair connoisseur.

The 131 is a masterpiece. Starting with 130 none of the late quartets are coherent in strictly classical terms (formulated by the time Brahms was composing, perhaps). That's not what LvB had in mind. The late quartets are quirky by nature, and they're also a lot funnier than most people seem to realize. Parody is a big thing in late Beethoven (think Diabelli variations).

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.02.2015 09:14, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:03:26 PM UTC+1, mrfi...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Glad we seem to agree that the Smetana Denon performance of 131
>> outdoes the earlier analog account. I think what I meant was that,
>> absent a brilliant performance, the quartet doesn't really hang
>> together.
>
> Go to a live performance and you'll see.

True, but music is mostly meant to be listened to, or so I was told.

> These are typically the type of problems one creates by trying to be
> an armchair connoisseur.

Complete mystical nonsense. As if the holy "live performance" induced
understanding faculties which people do not have elsewhere.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Willem Orange]

You just don't get it do you????

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 24.02.2015 21:34, Herman wrote:

Listening to op. 131 now, I do not find it that horrible. Granted, it
may lack the edge of a quartet in terms of sound but I wouldn't want to
dismiss it on that ground alone.
The conducting is effective, I guess Bernstein admirers will recognise
him easily. I think I#ll play it again.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[John Wiser]

"Lionel Tacchini" <lionel....@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:mcl8re$js2$1...@gwaiyur.mb-net.net...

> On 24.02.2015 21:34, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:15 PM UTC+1,
>> metrosout...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Only if you're naive enough to expect the Vienna Philharmonic to
>>> sound like a string quartet. I love this recording for what it is,
>>> not for what it isn't.
>>
>> It's like Bernstein's playing showboat air-guitar to one the most
>> beautiful pieces in the quartet literature, making it sound like
>> gloopy movie music.
>>
>> That's all.
>>
>
> Listening to op. 131 now, I do not find it that horrible. Granted, it may lack the edge of a
> quartet in terms of sound but I wouldn't want to dismiss it on that ground alone.

I would. No edge and no point, either.

[snip]

jdw

[Andy Evans]

Favourites in no special order of preference, and given that I haven't heard some e.g. the Turner:

Op 18:
1+2 Gewandhaus
3 Bartok
4 Hugo Wolf
5 Vermeer
6 Cleveland
59/1 Gewandhaus
59/2 Vermeer
59/3 Cleveland
74 Vermeer
95 Vermeer
127+130 Tokyo
131 Yale
135 Tokyo

Those are the more modern ones, though I'd take the Vegh early 1952 versions in preference for quite a few - some of those are magical.

[Oscar]

I've seen much praise here and in the archives for Quatuor Turner's Op.18 set on harmonia mundi. How is their second Beethoven Quartets release, Op.59/3 and 74, from 1998 (recorded at Vereenigde Doopsgezinde Gemeente, Haarlem)? I don't think there are any Turner discs other than those two, btw.

[arri bachrach]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:22:58 PM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
> I've seen much praise here and in the archives for Quatuor Turner's Op.18 set on harmonia mundi. How is their second Beethoven Quartets release, Op.59/3 and 74, from 1998 (recorded at Vereenigde Doopsgezinde Gemeente, Haarlem)? I don't think there are any Turner discs other than those two, btw.

nobody mentions the Amadeus Quartet. wonder why?

AB

[Bob Harper]

I looked forward to this disc eagerly, only to cull it shortly after I
got it. Nothing special, especially compared with the Op. 18.

Bob Harper

[jrsnfld]

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.

Absolutely, yes. I would love to have been a fly on the wall, for instance, when they recorded 59/1/iv, just to see that it was possible, in the same way I would love to have witnessed Szell/Cleveland craft the Mendelssohn MSND scherzo. I get a thrill from such tenacious virtuosity--crisp and fast beyond imagination. There are plenty of moments throughout the set when the advantages of such modernity and skill shine through.

While the playing is not at all aloof, you don't necessarily get a sense that the Emersons had much fun doing Beethoven. They could use some charm; they don't inspire "love" as often as, say, the live Budapest on Bridge. At least the Emersons do frequently play with charisma.

I stay away from the Emersons in music that requires gemuetlichkeit, but their Beethoven is consistently excellent, sometimes superb.

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 9:29:54 PM UTC-8, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> > Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never heard it.
>

> Absolutely, yes. I would love to have been a fly on the wall, for instance, when they recorded 59/1/iv, just to see that it was possible....

Oops...meant op. 59, n. 3....

--Jeff

[Herman]

I have the DG set which is fine but not competitive at the highest level.

There is a live performance of the 127 on Orfeo I like a lot..

[jrsnfld]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 11:20:04 AM UTC-8, Steve Emerson wrote:

> "John Wiser" wrote:
>
> > "Steve Emerson" wrote

> > > On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> > >> Is any of the Emersons set from 1997 worth listening to? I have never
> > >> heard it.
> > >

> > > Op 18/1 is.
> > >
> >
> > Thereafter, routine establishes itself. Without being in any respect
> > technically defective,
> > they're as bland as Quartetto Italiano's without the latter's beguiling tonal
> > luxuriance.
> >
> > I've omitted to express any Beethoven quartet preferences beyond the
> > Turners' Op. 18 set. My all-time keepers include, but are not
> > confined to, the 1960s Smetana Quartet coupling of Op. 18/4 and Op.
> > 59/3 (Westmnster), Busch Op, 59/1 (CBS), Janacek Quartet Op. 59/2
> > (Westninster), New Music Quartet Op. 59/3 (Bartok Records), Tatrai
> > Op. 74, (Telefunken) 1940's Budapest Op. 95 (Columbia), Smetana
> > Quartet analog Op. 127 (Supraphon), Busch Op. 130 (CBS), Smetana
> > analog Op. 132 (Supraphon).
>
> I notice you say "but are not confined to." But I also notice you don't
> mention an Op 131. Which is probably the most elusive of the works. The
> two that kill me are the quite-different Vlach (Supraphon) and Juilliard
> (RCA). Any keepers for you?
>
> SE.

Elusive may be the wrong word. Sensitive, yes, to every little choice a performer makes. More than perhaps any Beethoven quartet the parts must be properly balanced, tempo relationships exquisitely proportioned, varied rhythms and colors stylishly handled, even pauses and transitions delicately precise.

Yet when I listen to this work in the right hands I am easily convinced it is one of Beethoven's greatest creations--befuddling every expectation and sustaining inspiration at every bizarre turn.

So who has the right hands? The Barylli Q, for sure--exquisite color, luminous inner voices, smart tempi, weighty and defiant march to wrap up. Every change of mood feels right. Also the Danish Q, in a broadcast last year from Danish Radio (and rebroadcast on the BBC not long ago). The Taneyev Q is close, if not quite at the level of perfection. So was the Belcea in another recent broadcast (2013, from Vevey).

There are more, otherwise this wouldn't have been the quartet (as played by the Pascal Q) that convinced me to listen to all the other quartets.

--Jeff

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 26.02.2015 09:03, jrsnfld wrote:
> Yet when I listen to this work in the right hands I am easily
> convinced it is one of Beethoven's greatest creations--befuddling
> every expectation and sustaining inspiration at every bizarre turn.
>
> So who has the right hands?

Beethoven is like pizza. Choosing one is missing on all the others.
--
Lionel Tacchini - philosophical morning

[Lionel Tacchini]

That's the trouble with string orchestras. He should have added some flute.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Lionel Tacchini]

The point, obviously, was to allow the conductor to grace the world with
his interpretation of the works. I almost wonder why he didn't want to
conduct Weingartner's orchestration of the Hammerklavier.

Let's face it, it just had to be.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Es muß sein, es muß sein.
Ich muß die Miete zahl'n, und 'was zu beiß'n hab'n …

[Frank Berger]

I read somewhere that Mitropoulos's reason for doing the orchestration
was to exercise the under-performing Minneapolis strings.

[Bob Harper]

I'm not normally a fan of the Emersons, but one of the great moments of
my concert-going life was their performance of Op. 59/3 at Chamber Music
NW a number of years ago. The Finale blew the roof off and brought the
house down. Unbelievable!

Bob Harper

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 26.02.2015 13:23, Bob Harper wrote:

> I'm not normally a fan of the Emersons, but one of the great moments of
> my concert-going life was their performance of Op. 59/3 at Chamber Music
> NW a number of years ago. The Finale blew the roof off and brought the
> house down. Unbelievable!
>

Happy to know you got out alive and recovered ;-)
--
Lionel Tacchini

[arri bachrach]

OK- accept you comment. What is lacking in their playing that makes them non-competitive?

AB

[arri bachrach]

yeah... Tacchiini survivied but what about all the others who did not?:-)

AB

[Bob Harper]

Who said I ever recovered? :)

Bob Harper

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 26.02.2015 22:43, Bob Harper wrote:
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 5:03:56 AM UTC-8, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>> On 26.02.2015 13:23, Bob Harper wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not normally a fan of the Emersons, but one of the great moments of
>>> my concert-going life was their performance of Op. 59/3 at Chamber Music
>>> NW a number of years ago. The Finale blew the roof off and brought the
>>> house down. Unbelievable!
>>>
>>
>> Happy to know you got out alive and recovered ;-)

> Who said I ever recovered? :)
>

This place is stranger than I thought.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[MickeyBoy]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 3:59:30 AM UTC-6, Willem Orange wrote:
> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

A sleeper set might be from the Suske Quartet, recorded in stereo. I also like the Vegh and the Barilli. Many, many moons ago I wore out my lp's of the Yale and New Hungarian Quartets.

[Bob Harper]

I've been tempted by the Suske, as I like their Mozart. At the price
asked today, I gave in :)

Bob Harper

[smo...@hotmail.com]

This may be of interest: http://www.rolf-musicblog.net/?p=884 - There are some very detailed reviews.

Kind regards
Soeren

[Johannes Roehl]

If the Turner Quartet's op18 is unavailable a good period instruments alternative is by the Smithson(ian) Quartet on harmonia mundi. This was re-issued cheaply a few years ago. It's maybe a little dry but very lean and lively. The Mosaiques' op.18 is too slow IMO.

I do not have any other separate op.18; of single discs I'd recommend Hagen/DG with 18/1 + 59/1 and 18/4 + 131. Also the Petersen coupled the late quartets with some early ones but it's been a while I listened to them.

The Emerson's "middle" were available in some DG Beethoven collection. They are highly virtuosic and probably among their best recordings. (I also have their late Qts but not really listened to those.) Or if you can find the Melos/DG separate issues from the late 1980s (which has the bonus of the op.14 arrangement and they are one of the few who take the second repeat in 59,2i). I had the Suske in op.59/74 and gave them away again; this was too slow and relaxed for my taste (I only liked their op.74 - it cannot be denied that they produce very beautiful sounds)
A somewhat dark horse, slightly marred by echoy sound and only available from Japan (and the single issues are probably hard to find even there) is the Musikverein Quartet; I think I especially liked their middle quartets.
(There are so many good ones easily available, so I am not sure I'd go the extra mile for their recordings although they are very good (maybe even better in Mozart)

Of the late ones, there are too many and I can't really add much to what has been said by others. I just want to mentioned the LaSalle (DG, Brilliant had a re-issue a few years ago) who can be somewhat "cool" but are extremely good in balances and bringing out inner voices.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 11:59:30 PM UTC-10, Willem Orange wrote:
> If you mixed and matched the best recordings of the Early, Middle and Late quartets, what would be your choices???? (Trying to put together an excellent complete set.) I'm sure this was posted before but I was interested in current choices.

(Recent Youtube upload):

Repertoire: The IDEAL Beethoven String Quartet Cycle

[gggg gggg]

(Recent Y. upload):

Repertoire: The BEST Beethoven String Quartet Cycles

[Herman]

I'm always surprised at people mentioning the Suske cycle which IMO is a boring m-o-r affair. You put the cdplayer on and you know you're going to be in another room within ten minutes, just because it's not really interesting. Perhaps this recurring Suske thing is a case of conoisseurism: used to be Eastern Germany recordings were hard to get, so that made them instantly esoteric and desirable. I couldn't help but notice Hurwitz mentioning them in the German section of his LvB SQ overview, skipping many much better more recent cycles such as the Artemis and the Petersen (not quite complete).
At some point I will revisit the Ebene, which I found disappointing at first glance.
I don't really need cycles, of course. I rarely ever listen to an op. 18 quartet except when it's in a concert program.
It's interesting how the Italiano has become, in my view, a historical recording: this is how people around 1970 thought Beethoven was to be performed, as an almost metaphysically spotless otherworldly experience. Whereas the first Juilliard SQ recording still sounds fresh.