http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Feb05/organ_spectacular.htm
Jean Guillou is also the organist of Franck's organ works (complete) on
Brilliant Classics (recorded for Dorian) and using the Van den Heuvel Organ
of St. Eustache, Paris. Sometimes referred to as "The Monster", and which is
the instrument in his own church of St. Eustache. This 2 CD set (of the
Franck organ pieces) was also described as being gruesome on another
MusicWeb review, after I had soaked up these works in all their glory (or
was it gory?) over a weekend - couldn't get the damn CD off the player.
Guillou is accused, amongst other things, of, and being,
" greatest of all the organ world's 'Enfants Térribles'"
" Guillou is an organist for whom organ music is clearly dull. This is
evident in his desire to re-invent all the literature using his own
registrational world ..."
" Other typical Guillou-isms include replacing the flute in the famous Bach
Badinerie with a Trompette en chamade ..."
" The saddest element of this gruesome Guillou box is that it will be very
inexpensive."
Anyway, without the scores for the Franck set, I revelled in the sound of
the Van den Heuvel, as played "gruesomely" by Jean Guillou. Maybe this new
Brilliant Classics collection of assorted organ works will also be my cup of
tea?
Furthermore, the reviewer also gives mention to Hyperion's awful notes, to
quote, "pseudo-apocalyptic nonsense", when I presume he/she should have
referred to Dorian's original notes.
Basically, this review is so bad (the review or the music?), and I enjoyed
the Franck so much, I am definitely going to order this 3 CD of assortments
by the *gruesome* Guillou. Maybe, just maybe, Guillou is a musician that
makes music interesting. Normally, I prefer orchestral music played fairly
straight, and abhor grotesque distortions (mangling and wrangling). Maybe,
just maybe, organ music is different? I do know I have heard some very
boring organists. Or was it because it was Bach and an overload of chorales
<g>
Any comments by some organ mavens regarding Jean Guillou. I'm intrigued.
Ray H
Taree
If the review is really that bad, I would almost certainly buy the
recording on the strength of that alone.
He is a serious organist for serious organists.
Try confronting him yourself on Piporg-L on which he has been a regular
contributor, mostly on registration matters.
I remember being an Enfant Terrible myself (well, just Terrible,
probably) for saying I liked playing Boulez and it has gone full
circle: I am no longer an Enfant but remain just as Terrible.
I would go with your ears if I were you.
He's a great player. Yes, he does do things differently but isn't that
what people on here appreciate?
And yes there are lots of boring organists. Guillou (and Walter Kraft)
are not among them nor Ms Allain nor Judith Weir for that matter.
Nor another great organist, Francis Jackson.
Like any instrument you can make it sing. Some do, some don't. All of
the above do.
The July 2004 edition of the Royal College of Organists Journal
described Gruesome Guillou as "an organist of the Golden Age, never
hidebound by text but almost certainly one of the most expressive
players of our time and always seeking different voices......"
So certainly not worth buying then, combined with the review that is.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Thanks Mr Watkins for the reassurance and info. My ears will do my talking,
and I am ordering this 3 CD set, next time I put an order in to 2001. Btw, I
found the Brilliant Classics Franck 2 CD set wonderful listening, and so
inexpensive. Worth getting for all those want a organ orgy. Great sound too.
A monster organ is that one in Paris <g>
Ray H
Taree
> >
> The review is bullshit--Guillou is a genius armed with super-human
> technique.
This sounds reasonable.
Not an argan maven, I have his Gldberg Variations. I find very glorious
moments, where the transcription really works well, next to some moments
that leave me dumbfounded. The latter have mostly to do with his rather
personal approach to rhythm, or somesuch blurb in the booklet. Meaning
that the rhythm is sometimes so off that the voices fall apart completely.
Still, I haven't thrown out the disc, and occasionally even put it on.
An I still think the transciption of the Goldberg's for organ could work
much better in other hands.
BR
Joel Warren Lidz
www.jwlidz.us
Ray, what did you expect? It's MusicWeb.
Thomas
It is the Franck that I have by Guillou, and I agree with you entirely. I
intend to give this set an even closer listen, but it really wowed me first
listen. A superb instrument too.
Ray H
Taree
> Guillou is a genius armed with super-human technique.
The words "Guillou" and "technique" are never far apart from each other, and
I wonder why: yes, his technique is outstanding, but no more and no less so
than that of many other great contemporary organists.
Could it be that he puts his dazzling technique too much in the forefront?
> I guess
> it's fashionable to bash such unique artists.
Guillou's playing style is idiosyncratic, and one should therefore not be
surprised if listeners' reactions are equally idiosyncratic.
LJA
I agree with the other poster saying that this review
is bullshit. I had the lucky chance of assisting some years
ago in Paris (from _very_ close to the keyboard) to a concert
of Guillou playing on "his own" St.Eustache organ, "his own"
transcriptions of various music, including (!) Pictures at
an Exhibition and Tchaikowsky Casse-noisettes: well, clearly
Guillou is an organ virtuoso, whose astounding technique
allows him everyhing and more. The only problem ;-) is that
he is personally very self-aware of this fact, and sometimes
tends to show off too much.
all the best
Carlo
PS: please forgive my English. And thanks for the Franck
recommendation.
accused is one word, characterised, and many other terms come to mind
>
> Guillou is accused, amongst other things, of, and being,
>
> " greatest of all the organ world's 'Enfants Térribles'"
> Oh, come on, now . . . .
> " Guillou is an organist for whom organ music is clearly dull. This
is
> evident in his desire to re-invent all the literature using his own
> registrational world ..."
If Guillou feels organ music is dull, perhaps he should take up
glass-blowing, in reverse . . .
>
> " Other typical Guillou-isms include replacing the flute in the
famous Bach
> Badinerie with a Trompette en chamade ..."
It could well be said that his handiwork at St. Eustache (the brand of
the organ says it all) is definitely a crime; the rules and regulations
about the meddling of politics in changes (or no changes) in famous
French organs, appointments to important posts and so on may strike
those of us in the US as a little strange, but for the most part, they
rule the world in a complicated world. The two greatest organists of
the 20th century were Virgil Fox and Pierre Cochereau. Even Fox went
to Paris to study.
>
> Anyway, without the scores for the Franck set,
The next time you listen, may I suggest that you have the Franck scores
at hand; they are truly revelatory.
I revelled in the sound of
> the Van den Heuvel,
I barfed with sadness when I heard the Van den Heuvel, hoping that
there would be a magnificent instrument there. I was wrong.
> Furthermore, the reviewer also gives mention to Hyperion's awful
notes, to
> quote, "pseudo-apocalyptic nonsense", when I presume he/she should
have
> referred to Dorian's original notes.
>
> Basically, this review is so bad (the review or the music?), and I
enjoyed
> the Franck so much, I am definitely going to order this 3 CD of
assortments
> by the *gruesome* Guillou. Maybe, just maybe, Guillou is a musician
that
> makes music interesting. Normally, I prefer orchestral music played
fairly
> straight, and abhor grotesque distortions (mangling and wrangling).
Maybe,
> just maybe, organ music is different? I do know I have heard some
very
> boring organists. Or was it because it was Bach and an overload of
chorales
> <g>
>
> Any comments by some organ mavens regarding Jean Guillou. I'm
intrigued.
>
> Ray H
> Taree
Guillou is seriously over-rated any way you want to look. Fox and
Cochereau were dramatic, beyond reprieve in their over-done ways (yes,
I mean that), played impeccably in a way to bring organ *music* to the
people and did so. Compare Fox's or Cochereau's recordings of Franck
(Cochereau was castigated for his Franck, by the way) to those of
Guillou. The first two made music. Guillou imitated foghorns. There
are many wonderful sets of Franck's major works, some partial sets.
>From two different ends of the spectrum, try Daniel Roth at St. Sulpice
(Motette), and the restored (Decca) recordings by Jeanne Demessieux at
la Madeleine; although the better of two complete sets by Jean Langlais
has not made it to CD, try the one that hs (at Sainte-Clotilde --
Franck's and Tournemire's organ, by the way); just to get us back into
the St. Eustache fracas, try Andre Marchal on the organ there, much in
need of repair that it was at the time. The final Guillou-overseen
repairs led to Marchal's resignation. And for partial sets, try Fox's
at Riverside (EMI), Boston SO (Command), and Crystal Cathedral
(Laserlight); Cochereau (Notre-Dame); Lefebvre (Notre-Dame); listen to
the Chorales by Dupre at St. Thomas NYC (Mercury), and badger anyone
you know to continue with the transfer to CD of the remaining of
Dupre's recordings at St. Sulpice.
There is no shortage of wonderful full sets of the major works of
Franck. The recordings by Guillou should be recycled. So should the
organ.
John Turner
> [..] Cochereau [..] played impeccably
ROTFL!
LJA
It would appear that Mr. Turner is the President of the Virgil Fox Fan club.
So be it.
However, this extremely bitchy post is hardly worthy of Virgil Fox, let
alone Pierre Cochereau or ANY of the other organists mentioned en passant by
Mr. Turner.
Jean Guillou is a brilliant organist. Of that there is no doubt. Anyone who
has ever heard him perform will attest to that fact.
If Mr. Turner doesn't like his playing, fine. That is his right. But to
suggest that his work be "recycled" is simply revolting and does not credit
to Mr. Turner or the object of his affection, Mr. Fox.
Furthermore, if he doesn't like what has been done at Ste. Eustache, that is
fine, too. But in the latter case he should just take it up with those who
were in a position to sanction the changes brought about at the church. M.
Guillou did not do this on his own, without permission, funding, and
approval.
There are some who hate progress or change. Any progress, or any change.
Perhaps we should create an island in the South Pacific for them where they
can go and live with the natives, who also dislike change.
In the meantime those who like organ music will continue to enjoy both Mr.
Guillou as well as Mr. Van den Heuvel, and everyone in between. None need
recycling. Although I must say I have a suggestion for someone who is ready
for the dump right about now.
TD
I agree that there is room for all. I even like E. Power Biggs from
time to time and how out of fashion is that!
Some of us go backwards in organs, as well. Often, the older they are,
the more they wheeze the more I like them (it's probably an age
association).
My hero is the Compenius organ in Frederiksborg Castle, Denmark, where
the keyboard clatters delightfully as it issues forth it's asthmatic
sounds (although it has a pretty rude Battallia, hear Lena Jacobson on
BIS). In renaissance music, an entirely different organ technique, it
is fantastic.
I could not work out if Mr Turner was criticising the player or the
instrument (or both) but with the organ you have the option. I think
Mr Fox was an excellent player but I did not always like his
instrument.
On to a few "facts":
The organ at the St. Eustache, Paris persuaded the "Societé Académique
d'Arts et Lettres" in Paris to bestow their "Médaille de Vermeïl" upon
Jan L. van den Heuvel in 1991 for his contribution to the Art of French
organ building.
The Church of St. Eustache, erected between 1532 and 1640, is one of
the most important churches in Paris. Standing near the Louvre an the
Royal Palace, St. Eustache was known as the Parochial an Royal Church
from the 17th century until the French Revolution.
Numerous major events have marked its history. Richelieu, Jeanne
Antoinette Poisson (the future Marquess de Pompadour) and Molière were
baptised there. Louis XIV Holy Communion was celebrated in the St.
Eustache, as were the funerals of La Fontaine, Wolfgang Amadeus
Mozart's mother, and many others.
The writer Voiture, the grammarian Vaugelas, Furetière, the harlequin
Dominique Bensérade and Scaramouche are buried there.
The world-wide reputation of the St. Eustache is due not only to its
splendid architecture, but also to its musical tradition. The marriage
of Lulli, the last organ recital of Rameau, the concerts of Berlioz,
Franck, Liszt and many others are examples. Since 1963 Jean Guillou,
accomplished virtuoso, improviser of great talent and representative of
modern music for the organ, has been the titular organist.
The Organ
Having to face the disastrous results of the works initiated in 1978,
the City of Paris decided, in 1985, to organise an European competition
in order to have the organ rebuild.
Amongst the organ builders selected and allowed to submit a proposal,
KLAIS and VAN DEN HEUVEL got the same number of votes at the "Commision
des Orgues" and finally the contract was awarded to the Dutch firm VAN
DEN HEUVEL.
Building the new instrument began at fall 1986 and the organ was
completed in the organ builder's assembly hall in august 1988. At that
time it was fully playable (with exception of the display pipes which,
together with the case, were strongly anchored to the walls of the
Saint Eustache church). During fall 1988 the instrument was dismantled
and shipped to Paris, then reinstalled on the gallery. Works were
finished by summer 1989 and the titular was able to record some CD's in
June 1989 and play the dedicatory recital on September 21st, 1989.
The Van den Heuvel organ is completely new except the case with its
display pipes and a few stops which were reused (amongst them the Cor
de Basset 8' made by the famous English organ builder Henry Willis for
Joseph Bonnet - organist of Saint Eustache from 1906 to 1943).
The new organ has five manual divisions of 61 notes and a Pedal of 32
notes. The Specification is exceptionally rich. The Positif has 18
stops, the Grand-Orgue 16 stops, the Récit Expressif 17 stops, the
Grand-Choeur 19 stops, the Solo 11 stops and the Pedal 20 stops,
altogether 101 stops, 147 ranks and 8.000 pipes. Amongst the uncommon
features of this organ, the following are particularly noticeable:
a grand Plein-Jeu based on the Montre 32' on the Grand-Orgue;
the harmonic series up to the ninth in 32' on the Pédale (Théorbe: 4
4/7' + 3 5/9') , in 16' on the Grand-Choeur and in 8' on the Solo
(Harmoniques: 1 1/3' + 1 1/7' + 8/9'), and up to the seventh in 8' on
the Positif;
a Plein-Jeu Harmonique 2-8r. on the Grand-Choeur;
a battary of hooded Tubas on the Grand-Choeur;
a reed battery based on the 32' Contrebasson on the Récit Expressif;
the five ranks of chamade reeds on the solo winded on 6 (!) different
wind pressures increasing from bass to treble."
That is from the church website. I could go on (the web site does), as
could the organ, but I think that's probably enough or, if you don't
like the organist, too much.
The exclamation mark is not mine.
Raymond Hall wrote:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Feb05/organ_spectacular.htm
>> was also described as being gruesome on another
>> MusicWeb review, after I had soaked up these works in all their glory
>> (or
>> was it gory?) over a weekend - couldn't get the damn CD off the
>>player.
> accused is one word, characterised, and many other terms come to mind
I thought the word I used above was "described". But I am not into pedantry
that much. I do use the word below, but I normally expect replies to follow
what is being replied to/
>> Guillou is accused, amongst other things, of, and being,
>> " greatest of all the organ world's 'Enfants Térribles'"
>> Oh, come on, now . . . .
Precisely. In the review, no less. But who cares if he is. Really. Wasn't
Stokowski an 'Enfant Terrible?'.
>> " Guillou is an organist for whom organ music is clearly dull. This
>>is
>> evident in his desire to re-invent all the literature using his own
>> registrational world ..."
>If Guillou feels organ music is dull, perhaps he should take up
>glass-blowing, in reverse . . .
Monsieur Guillou never said the above. It was "suggested" in the review that
he "might" feel that organ music is dull. In the wrong hands, maybe? Maybe
Guillou brings the music to life. He does to my ears.
>
>> " Other typical Guillou-isms include replacing the flute in the
>>famous Bach
>> Badinerie with a Trompette en chamade ..."
>It could well be said that his handiwork at St. Eustache (the brand of
>the organ says it all) is definitely a crime;
Punishable by death? Or was it a crime of passion?
>>the rules and regulations
>>about the meddling of politics in changes (or no changes) in famous
>>French organs, appointments to important posts and so on may strike
>>those of us in the US as a little strange,
Why? I'm in Australia, and see the French and the Americans as both slightly
strange. Maybe you think Australians are strange. Politics also happens.
Like shit.
>>but for the most part, they
>>rule the world in a complicated world. The two greatest organists of
>>the 20th century were Virgil Fox and Pierre Cochereau. Even Fox went
>>to Paris to study.
Terms such as the "greatest" carry with them a whole heap of subjectivity,
n'est-ce pas?
> >Anyway, without the scores for the Franck set,
>The next time you listen, may I suggest that you have the Franck scores
>at hand; they are truly revelatory.
I will seek the scores out. Obviously with a fairly large CD collection, I
only have mostly Bach scores, and presently possess a fairly reasonable
electronic keyboard. I am sure the Franck will be revelatory as you say. I
take your word for it. The music is wonderful.
>>I revelled in the sound of
>> the Van den Heuvel,
>I barfed with sadness when I heard the Van den Heuvel, hoping that
>there would be a magnificent instrument there. I was wrong.
I hope you have recovered from your 'barfing' attack. But frankly, the beast
sounds wonderful to these ears. I am not an organ specialist, far from in
it, but I am aware of the individuality of many of them. It is part and
parcel of what an organ is all about. Depends on the listener, though, what
we essentially like. I used to love the sound of the great Wurlitzer in the
Odeon when I was a kid, but I suppose we have moved on? Actually I still do,
in the right hands, and with the right music.
>> Furthermore, the reviewer also gives mention to Hyperion's awful
>> notes, to
>> quote, "pseudo-apocalyptic nonsense", when I presume he/she should
>> have
>> referred to Dorian's original notes.
>Guillou is seriously over-rated any way you want to look. Fox and
>Cochereau were dramatic, beyond reprieve in their over-done ways (yes,
>I mean that), played impeccably in a way to bring organ *music* to the
>people and did so. Compare Fox's or Cochereau's recordings of Franck
>(Cochereau was castigated for his Franck, by the way) to those of
>Guillou. The first two made music. Guillou imitated foghorns. There
>are many wonderful sets of Franck's major works, some partial sets.
>From two different ends of the spectrum, try Daniel Roth at St. Sulpice
>(Motette), and the restored (Decca) recordings by Jeanne Demessieux at
>la Madeleine; although the better of two complete sets by Jean Langlais
>has not made it to CD, try the one that hs (at Sainte-Clotilde --
>Franck's and Tournemire's organ, by the way); just to get us back into
>the St. Eustache fracas, try Andre Marchal on the organ there, much in
>need of repair that it was at the time. The final Guillou-overseen
>repairs led to Marchal's resignation. And for partial sets, try Fox's
>at Riverside (EMI), Boston SO (Command), and Crystal Cathedral
>(Laserlight); Cochereau (Notre-Dame); Lefebvre (Notre-Dame); listen to
>the Chorales by Dupre at St. Thomas NYC (Mercury), and badger anyone
>you know to continue with the transfer to CD of the remaining of
>Dupre's recordings at St. Sulpice.
Fair enuff. Some good suggestions that I might try. But I might suggest that
there are others that hold Guillou in high esteem, apparently.
>There is no shortage of wonderful full sets of the major works of
>Franck. The recordings by Guillou should be recycled. So should the
>organ.
The above is a slightly reckless statement, because the Guillou Franck
sounds good to my ears. Maybe I need an new set of specially equipped 'organ
ears'. I listened to Hurford and others at St. Albans cathedral several
times. Again, an organ is a completely unique beast, and sits in a
completely unique environment.
Ray H
Taree
What ever happened to the Philips Cochereau recordings? Never made it
across the Atlantic, or never issued on Cd?
Brendan
--
Only slightly mate?
> >>but for the most part, they
> >>rule the world in a complicated world. The two greatest organists
of
> >>the 20th century were Virgil Fox and Pierre Cochereau. Even Fox
went
> >>to Paris to study.
>
No mention of Odile Pierre thus far , but at least someone put in a
vote in for Jillian Weir.
> >I barfed with sadness when I heard the Van den Heuvel, hoping that
> >there would be a magnificent instrument there. I was wrong.
My organ teacher, Sergio de Pierri (OK I know that's nothing to brag
about) asked a group of his pupils to describe the tone of various
organs in one word. the Van den Heuval got. "acidic" "Blatant" "Prissy"
and from me "overated". Subjectivity indeed. The new Reiger organ at
Scots Church , Collins St , Melbourne, to my mind is the most
astonishing instrument I've ever heard, and I've heard a few.
If I was asked to describe it in one word I'd probably say "seductive"
others have described it as "golden' , 'overpowering', etc.
Subjectivity again.
>
>
> I hope you have recovered from your 'barfing' attack. But frankly,
the beast
> sounds wonderful to these ears. I am not an organ specialist, far
from in
> it, but I am aware of the individuality of many of them. It is part
and
> parcel of what an organ is all about. Depends on the listener,
...and where they sit at the time, the humidity on the day,the number
of homo sapiens seated in the building and particular combinations of
stops chosen.
>. I used to love the sound of the great Wurlitzer in the
> Odeon when I was a kid, but I suppose we have moved on? Actually I
still do,
> in the right hands, and with the right music.
YUK!
> and badger anyone
> >you know to continue with the transfer to CD of the remaining of
> >Dupre's recordings at St. Sulpice.
Yes please.
>
> The above is a slightly reckless statement, because the Guillou
Franck
> sounds good to my ears. Maybe I need an new set of specially equipped
'organ
> ears'. I listened to Hurford and others at St. Albans cathedral
several
> times. Again, an organ is a completely unique beast, and sits in a
> completely unique environment.
>
As recordings of organ music are subjected to completely unique audio
systems and domestic acoustics,not to mention some very peculiar CD
mastering technigues on occassion, what we hear at home may have
nothing to do with what was heard during the recording.
I say this simply to warn that, for the organ probably more so than any
other instrument, it is a hazardous exercise passing judgement on an
instrument listening at home.
Most of them are available in France, on Philips' "Grandes Orgues" series.
I picked up several of them in Paris in November.
David Enos