Fritz Reiner - Complete Chicago RCA Recordings - 63 CDs

[Randy Lane]

Just saw on JPC.de:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Chicago-Recordings-on-RCA/hnum/3457481

[wanwan]

On May 15, 8:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just saw on JPC.de:
>

> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...

Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff
that had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-
issue, like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan; Beethoven 3, 6, 8, & 9;
assorted Mozart; Brahms 3; rolf lieberman; Schubert 5 & 8; schumann PC
w/byron Janis. Wonder if a U.S. issue would be cheaper?

Too bad that they couldn't add the Pittsburgh & Met stuff as well.
That would make the set more interesting, since much of the Chicago
has been previously issued.

-------------------
Eric

[td]

This is a complete no-brainer for Reiner fans, regardless of how many
copies they already have of Strauss, etc.

My question is: Have they finally located the stereo copies of the
Mozart symphonies which were issued on stereo tape in the 1950s? No,
not just EKN.

The Beethoven 3 has the best bunch of horns in III that I have ever
heard and has never been reissued in any format.

TD

[Kerrison]

The Beethoven 3 "has never been reissued in any format"? ... Hmmm ...
well, what is this in front of me then ... BMG Classics 09026 60962 2
with the Eroica plus the Coriolan and Fidelio Overtures (published
1992).

[td]

I have NEVER seen that release.

It has, of course, been issued in Japan, like everything. But was
never reissued on LP or cassette.

TD

[GMS]

Dear old Tom is off his meds again. EKN only appeared in "electronic" stereo on a Victrola LP. Mozart 41 was the only Mozart Symphony recorded by Reiner/CSO in genuine stereo---the others were all mono only. (They did appear on half-track tape but, again, in mono only.)

[GMS]

Another error is by the producers of the set: Haydn 101 and 95 were not recorded with the CSO. Those were recorded by Reiner with the RCA Victor Symphony in NY

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On May 16, 5:06 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff
> that had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-
> issue, like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan

The '60 Don Juan was released on a Living Stereo SACD as the filler
for Don Quixote, misdated as the 1954 version. It's in three-channel,
while the 1954 version (which was on the original redbook Living
Stereo CD) is in two-channel. Also, the timings are different. The
only Reiner/CSO recording which hasn't seen CD release yet anywhere is
"The Star-Spangled Banner".

Mark O-T

[td]

On May 16, 8:43 am, GMS <slidemast...@aol.com> wrote:
> Dear old Tom is off his meds again.

Nope.

Just going on the memory of reading High Fidelity in 1956,

> EKN only appeared in "electronic" stereo on a Victrola LP.

I'll have to check that stastement.

 Mozart 41 was the only Mozart Symphony recorded by Reiner/CSO in
genuine stereo---the others were all mono only.  (They did appear on
half-track tape but, again, in mono only.)

I wonder why my memory of that HF review of the tape said stereo.

TD

P.S. No need to be snarky, you know, unless you were born that way, in
which case we forgive you.

[td]

On May 16, 8:52 am, GMS <slidemast...@aol.com> wrote:
> Another error is by the producers of the set:  Haydn 101 and 95 were not recorded with the CSO.  Those were recorded by Reiner with the RCA Victor Symphony in NY

We know this, of course.

But his buddies from Chicago made the trip for the recording and they
were joined by some other local colleagues. Much was written about
this recording at the time.

TD

[Dontait...@aol.com]

A few CSO members did, including Victor Aitay, who acted as concertmaster. But the orchestra was by no means CSO-majority.

Don Tait

[GMS]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-5, td wrote:
> On May 16, 8:43 am, GMS <slidemast...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear old Tom is off his meds again.

> P.S. No need to be snarky, you know, unless you were born that way, in
>
> which case we forgive you.

Not really my nature to be snarky, but after years of reading your snarky comments directed at me, I decided to be pre-emptive. Regards to all.

Gary Stucka

[wkasimer]

On May 16, 7:11 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:

> > The Beethoven 3 "has never been reissued in any format"? ... Hmmm ...
> > well, what is this in front of me then ... BMG Classics 09026 60962 2
> > with the Eroica plus the Coriolan and Fidelio Overtures (published
> > 1992).
>
> I have NEVER seen that release.
>
> It has, of course, been issued in Japan, like everything.

It was certainly issued in the USA.

Bill

[Miguel Montfort]

There is another issue courtesy of BMG France �
Artistes et Repertoires [2CDs, #74321 88681-2],
inlcuding the fifth, sixth, and seventh symphony,
too.

HTH,

Miguel Montfort

[Kerrison]

It was also certainly issued in the UK and Europe, so how any alleged
self-respecting Reiner collector can have overlooked it is not clear.
However, in this particular individual's case it seems that if he
hasn't actually seen something then it doesn't exist. We can soon put
that to rights with a picture of the cover from Amazon ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Reiner%20Beethoven%20Eroica%20Symphony%203

[td]

Snarky comments directed at you?

Hmmmmm.

I don't even know who you are.

TD

[td]

On May 16, 11:09 am, Miguel Montfort <op...@web.de> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> > On May 16, 7:11 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The Beethoven 3 "has never been reissued in any format"? ... Hmmm ...
> >>> well, what is this in front of me then ... BMG Classics 09026 60962 2
> >>> with the Eroica plus the Coriolan and Fidelio Overtures (published
> >>> 1992).
>
> >> I have NEVER seen that release.
>
> >> It has, of course, been issued in Japan, like everything.
>
> > It was certainly issued in the USA.
>

> There is another issue courtesy of BMG France –

> Artistes et Repertoires [2CDs, #74321 88681-2],
> inlcuding the fifth, sixth, and seventh symphony,
> too.

Yes, I believe I own that, Miguel. It was a very strange series all
things considered.

TD

[wagnerfan]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 07:40:22 -0700 (PDT), GMS <slidem...@aol.com>
wrote:

Excellent!!!!!! Wagner fan

[wagnerfan]

Now are you going to believe Leakin Deacon (and we all know how
accurate he can be!!!) or your lying eyes????? Wagner fan

[wagnerfan]

Always nice to hear from one of the experts in remastering - one of
the greats in engineering. Wagner fan

[Norman Schwartz]

Kerrison wrote:
> On May 16, 3:48 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:

> And it was also certainly issued in the UK and Europe. This person,
> who claims to be a Reiner collector, evidently seems to think that if
> he hasn't seen it then it doesn't exist. How very simplistic. Well, we
> can soon amend that. Here is the cover on Amazon ...
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Reiner%20Beethoven%20Symphony%203#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Fritz+Reiner+Beethoven+Symphony+3+Eroica&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AFritz+Reiner+Beethoven+Symphony+3+Eroica
>
>
On the same page: :-)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphony-Eroica-Strauss-Zarathustra/dp/B001OJAKCY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368720206&sr=8-3&keywords=Fritz+Reiner+Beethoven+Symphony+3+Eroica

a.. Genres:
a.. Classic Rock
b.. Rock

[td]

On May 16, 12:07 pm, "Norman Schwartz" <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Kerrison wrote:
> > On May 16, 3:48 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On May 16, 7:11 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> The Beethoven 3 "has never been reissued in any format"? ... Hmmm
> >>>> ... well, what is this in front of me then ... BMG Classics 09026
> >>>> 60962 2 with the Eroica plus the Coriolan and Fidelio Overtures
> >>>> (published 1992).
>
> >>> I have NEVER seen that release.
>
> >>> It has, of course, been issued in Japan, like everything.
>
> >> It was certainly issued in the USA.
>
> >> Bill
>
> > And it was also certainly issued in the UK and Europe. This person,
> > who claims to be a Reiner collector, evidently seems to think that if
> > he hasn't seen it then it doesn't exist. How very simplistic. Well, we
> > can soon amend that. Here is the cover on Amazon ...
>

> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field.

I have to say I missed that reissue completely.

Shit happens, of course.

> On the same page:  :-)
>

> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphony-Eroica-Strauss-Zarathustra...

A pirate reissue of no interest to anyone but the pirate.

TD

[O]

In article
<4ef1b56e-906c-46e0...@z10g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, td

Yes you do, but your predilection for divining initials has failed you.
Here's a clue: Think of a windy city.

-Owen

P.S. Now no one can say you don't have a clue.

-O

[Dontait...@aol.com]

I bought my copy of RCA 09026 60962-2 at either Rose Records or Tower in Chicago. The publication date on the back of the CD is 1992. It is indeed a domestic BMG/RCA CD.

Incidentally, the (computer?)-colored cover photo of Reiner in front of the CSO clearly shows violinist Victor Aitay (later the concertmaster) seated to Reiner's left and violinist Francis Akos seated to his right.

Don Tait

[Norman Schwartz]

I wasn't at all concerned with the recording's origin. I wouldn't buy
another Erocia (pirate or otherwise) even if LvB was conducting some given
orchestra. Scrolling down that page showed that particular Reiner Eroica,
coupled with a Strauss ASZ, was classified as being Rock, Classic Rock.



> TD

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-5, td wrote:

> On May 16, 8:43 am, GMS <slidemast...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear old Tom is off his meds again.
>
>
>
> Nope.
>
>
>
> Just going on the memory of reading High Fidelity in 1956,
>
>
>
> > EKN only appeared in "electronic" stereo on a Victrola LP.
>
>
>
> I'll have to check that stastement.
>
>
>
>  Mozart 41 was the only Mozart Symphony recorded by Reiner/CSO in
>
> genuine stereo---the others were all mono only.  (They did appear on
>
> half-track tape but, again, in mono only.)
>
>
>
> I wonder why my memory of that HF review of the tape said stereo.
>
>
>
> TD

I am happy to check Gary's statement about the Reiner/CSO Eine kleine Nachtmusik. According to the RCA paperwork, he is correct. Completely. EKN was recorded December 4, 1954, the same day as Beethoven's "Eroica" Symphony. Both were recorded only in mono. It was issued on a mono LP, LM-1966, coupled with Mozart's Divertimento no. 17. On a mono two-track reel-to-reel tape, DC-24 (same coupling). EKN was issued in electronic stereo on Victrola LP VICS-1671E. The "E" stands for electronic stereo. By all means check Gary's statement, of course. Let us know the result of your research.

Reiner/CSO Mozart symphony recordings: as Gary wrote, correctly, only the "Jupiter" was recorded in stereo. On April 26, 1954. It was issued on stereo two-track reel-to-reel tape on DCSD-10 and DCS-10 (different tape formats). Symphony 36 ("Linz") was recorded the same day, but for unexplained reasons only in mono. It never received a tape release. Symphony 39 was recorded April 23, 1955; no. 40 on April 25. Both only in mono. Both were issued on one two-track mono reel-to-reel tape, CC-28.

I have no doubt that High Fidelity in 1956 stated these matters correctly. If they did not, it would be good to know. Again, please fill everyone in.

Don Tait

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark Obert-Thorn <Trans...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:ca0559a8-8fbf-4b0f-855d-ba9e69448f48
@gq1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

This means I must have missed seeing 1) Schumann Piano Concerto with Janis
(first release was on LP as a WFMT premium, as I recall), and 2) Rolf
Liebermann's Concerto for Jazz Band and Orchestra. I'm not doubting your
word, of course, just saying that I never saw these items on CD.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Kerrison]

On May 16, 7:55 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

Reiner's "Eroica" has been on You Tube for just over a year, with
1,499 persons having heard it so far, probably for the first time
ever ... A super performance, in any case ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpqTKaUv-J4

[wagnerfan]

Don - checking over my High Fidelity magazines - there is a review
in 1956 for RCA tape DC24 Mozart EKN and Divertimento no. 17.
There is also a review for Mozart Jupiter Symphony with Reiner DCS 10
Those are the only two Reiner Mozart tapes listed. Wagner Fan

[jrsnfld]

On May 16, 4:11 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> On May 16, 6:55 am, Kerrison <kerrison126-spar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 10:59 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 16, 5:06 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > > > On May 15, 8:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Just saw on JPC.de:
>
> > > > >http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...

>
> > > > Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff
> > > > that had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-

> > > > issue, like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan; Beethoven 3, 6, 8, & 9;
> > > > assorted Mozart; Brahms 3; rolf lieberman; Schubert 5 & 8; schumann PC
> > > > w/byron Janis.  Wonder if a U.S. issue would be cheaper?
>
> > > > Too bad that they couldn't add the Pittsburgh & Met stuff as well.
> > > > That would make the set more interesting, since much of the Chicago
> > > > has been previously issued.
>
> > > This is a complete no-brainer for Reiner fans, regardless of how many
> > > copies they already have of Strauss, etc.
>
> > > My question is: Have they finally located the stereo copies of the
> > > Mozart symphonies which were issued on stereo tape in the 1950s? No,
> > > not just EKN.
>
> > > The Beethoven 3 has the best bunch of horns in III that I have ever
> > > heard and has never been reissued in any format.
>
> > > TD

>
> > The Beethoven 3 "has never been reissued in any format"? ... Hmmm ...
> > well, what is this in front of me then ... BMG Classics 09026 60962 2
> > with the Eroica plus the Coriolan and Fidelio Overtures (published
> > 1992).
>
> I have NEVER seen that release.
>

> It has, of course, been issued in Japan, like everything. But was
> never reissued on LP or cassette.

Beethoven 3 with Reiner/CSO was one of my earliest LP issues. I still
have it, even though I "replaced" it with CD long ago--but nothing
could replace RCA's delightful misprint on the spine: "Beethoven
Symphony No. 5 'Eroica'"! Anyone else have that issue?

--Jeff

[td]

On May 16, 2:55 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

My set of the complete HF annuals is in storage. Thus I cannot double
check my memory or your claims. I can only base my comments on
something I read 55 years ago, admittedly a risky venture.

I am, however, astonished that you, with no official connection with
RCA Victor or Sony, are in possession of RCA's own archives
("paperwork"?) on this subject. Did they publish them? Did you copy
them somehow? Surreptitiously? Legally? Do you now represent the
source of information for Sony Classical with respect to Fritz Reiner
and his legacy?

I have the original LP of the EKN and yes, it is in monaural sound.
Also the French issue on GM43558. They provide the dates for the two
works: K.522, September 16-17, 1954; K. 251, September 21-22, 1954.

Symphony 40 & 41 appeared on LP on LM-2114, again in monaural sound.

HOWEVER, the German issue of Symphonies 36, 39. 40 & 41 on PVM 2-9071
(Meister Spielen Meister series published by RCA Schallplatten,
Hamburg, Germany) are very clearly marked as STEREO - 2 LPs.

Without getting out my turntable to verify this, I am led to believe
that the Germans located stereo tapes. It seems unlikely that they
would plaster STEREO in large print on this set knowing full well that
they were selling mono recordings and passing them off as stereo. Did
the engineers not tweak to this and inform them? Or, are they really
in stereo? Or perhaps all in fake stereo? Or perhaps it's Rene Kohler
and not Fritz Reiner at all? LOL

You must be aware that the Munch Damnation was reputed to have been
recorded in stereo, but only tiny bits have survived; the stereo
masters destroyed. Is this what happened to the Reiner Mozarts? Or
not?

In any event I do keep my hopes up that the Mozart recordings on offer
in this new box will be in stereo, as the German LPs purport to be,
but as your paperwork, Don, says they cannot be. As for Gary, I leave
him to his snarky self.

TD

[td]

On May 16, 3:46 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark Obert-Thorn <Transfr...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following

> letters to be typed in news:ca0559a8-8fbf-4b0f-855d-ba9e69448f48
> @gq1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On May 16, 5:06 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff that
> >> had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-issue,
> >> like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan
>
> > The '60 Don Juan was released on a Living Stereo SACD as the filler for
> > Don Quixote, misdated as the 1954 version.  It's in three-channel, while
> > the 1954 version (which was on the original redbook Living Stereo CD) is
> > in two-channel.  Also, the timings are different.  The only Reiner/CSO
> > recording which hasn't seen CD release yet anywhere is "The Star-Spangled
> > Banner".
>
> > Mark O-T
>
> This means I must have missed seeing 1) Schumann Piano Concerto with Janis
> (first release was on LP as a WFMT premium, as I recall), and 2) Rolf
> Liebermann's Concerto for Jazz Band and Orchestra.  I'm not doubting your
> word, of course, just saying that I never saw these items on CD.

The Schumann Pico with Janis has now appeared on CD in the Janis box.
Perhaps the Liebermann appeared in Japan when they were vacuuming up
all the Reiner materials and putting them on CD.

But it would be a very brave (or foolish?) man to question Mr. Obert-
Thorn's statements.

Enter Matty Tepper.

TD

[Mort]

jrsnfld wrote:
> Beethoven 3 with Reiner/CSO was one of my earliest LP issues. I still
> have it, even though I "replaced" it with CD long ago--but nothing
> could replace RCA's delightful misprint on the spine: "Beethoven
> Symphony No. 5 'Eroica'"! Anyone else have that issue?

Hi,

RCA has been publishing misprints for decades. One of their classic
bloopers concerned a Verdi opera, perhaps Il Trovatore. Their English
translation said that he killed him with a spade. In Italian it is "una
spada", which means sword, and not spade. I can just imagine a man on
stage running after his victim with a shovel in his hands.

More recently, a William Kapell CD box set was reissued as 24 bit
re-mastered sound. In fact, the timings are exactly the same as the
older CDs to the second, and the sounds are also identical.

Take it from whence it comes.

Good listening.

Mort Linder

[Mort]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> This means I must have missed seeing 1) Schumann Piano Concerto with Janis
> (first release was on LP as a WFMT premium, as I recall), and 2) Rolf
> Liebermann's Concerto for Jazz Band and Orchestra. I'm not doubting your
> word, of course, just saying that I never saw these items on CD.

Hi,

The Janis/Reiner Schumann CD is in the new RCA Janis CD box set.

Mort Linder

[Jay Kauffman]

Actually that famous line was in the early RCA sets of Rigoletto - when Sparafucile (a professional assassin) introduces himself he says - "a voi presente un uom di spada sta" which RCA wonderfully translated as "Before you stands a man with a spade" I always thought it conjured up a wonderful picture of Sparafucile's nocturnal diggings!!!!!!

[Mark S]

On May 15, 11:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just saw on JPC.de:
>
> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...

Finally! - an el cheapo multi-CD box set that I can pass on without
losing any sleep.

I really don't get the whole Reiner worship thing. Lord knows I've
tried (and by Lord, I'm referring to Odin).

[wanwan]

On May 16, 2:54 am, Mark Obert-Thorn <Transfr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 16, 5:06 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff
> > that had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-
> > issue, like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan
>
> The '60 Don Juan was released on a Living Stereo SACD as the filler
> for Don Quixote, misdated as the 1954 version.  It's in three-channel,
> while the 1954 version (which was on the original redbook Living
> Stereo CD) is in two-channel.  Also, the timings are different.  The
> only Reiner/CSO recording which hasn't seen CD release yet anywhere is
> "The Star-Spangled Banner".
>
> Mark O-T

Thanks for pointing this out. Now I have to go an find my copy :)

--------------------
Eric

[skyf...@gmail.com]

also, the Horowitz Live 41cd + dvd

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Vladimir-Horowitz-Life-at-Carnegie-Hall/hnum/3457492

btw, how good/bad the sound of Reiner LP recordings (the Living Stereo excluded) ? I asked because I listened to a Japanese release of the Beethoven 9th some years ago, and it was not pleasant at all.

It is good to know that they are going to remaster some materials for this 2013 release (from the jpc product description).

[skyf...@gmail.com]

also from JPC store,

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Vladimir-Horowitz-Life-at-Carnegie-Hall/hnum/3457492

[jrsnfld]

Although I like Reiner's recordings more than you do (that's easy
enough), I sometimes think the trick is that "You had to be there."
You had to be there in the 50s and 60s when such excellent sounding
recordings on RCA were a pleasant surprise. And you had to be there in
person, in the concerts, to get what it was about Reiner that was, so
often, truly outstanding.

I had a taste of the RCA magic once when I bought a nice copy of
Reiner's Also Sprach and tried it out on my record player--I have
rarely had such pleasure listening to a recording: the textures were
warm, detailed, and remarkably present, vivid, and realistic. Imagine
the impact of that listening if you'd been on a steady diet of dry as
dust Mercury's, or Toscanini jobs from 8-H.

As for Reiner's own magic, there are a few live recordings that
resurrect the full picture of his musicianship, far beyond the prim
correctness that dogged his studio efforts (oh, there are some
exceptions that take wing, but not nearly enough). Try the Schumann 2
or the Rienzi overture. Maybe try one of his many live opera
recordings from the Met and other opera houses. I think it's pretty
clear from these documents that Reiner could shape a performance into
a vivid musical event without losing his overwhelming sense of
discipline.

--Jeff

[wanwan]

On May 15, 8:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just saw on JPC.de:
>
> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...

Anyone know if a U.S. or U.K. issue is imminent?

-------------------------------
Eric

[td]

NEVER generalize from the particular, MOrt.

It goes against the laws of logic, you know.

All companies experience "misprints", etc.

TD

[td]

Try harder.

TD

[td]

On May 17, 2:58 am, skyfir...@gmail.com wrote:
> also, the Horowitz Live 41cd + dvd
>

> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Vladimir-Horowitz-Life-a...

>
> btw, how good/bad the sound of Reiner LP recordings (the Living Stereo excluded) ?  I asked because I listened to a Japanese release of the Beethoven 9th some years ago, and it was not pleasant at all.

The question is: will they (can they) correct the out of tune timpany
in this Beethoven 9?

TD

[td]

On May 17, 5:20 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 15, 8:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just saw on JPC.de:
>
> >http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...
>
> Anyone know if a U.S. or U.K. issue is imminent?

OF COURSE IT IS!!!

Reiner is God in the USA. Sony isn't stupid, even if they are
sometimes incredibly incompetent.

TD

[Ray Hall]

He had the CSO.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Gerry]

I once owned this LP set. The STEREO marking was in error.

[Lawrence Chalmers]

I'm hoping there will be a US release and that
the Leiberman work will be included. The original lp had the mono (?)
Don Juan on the other side.
Did Reiner record the Brandenburgs? From the photo of the set it looks
like original lp covers and
disc counterparts.

[David Fox]

I tend to agree. It's not that I don't think Reiner was a superior
conductor - I just don't view his recordings as an interpretive gold
standard. RCA Living Stereo recordings were the best recorded sound
produced up until their time, but they are far from the all-time apex of
recorded sound as many audiophiles have categorized them. They are fine
recordings that deserve to be in the catalog. I can't blame Sony or the
various audiophile labels for continuing to reissue them if there's
still a vibrant market for them even (especially?) at aggressive price
points. They have continually provided their acolytes with new
opportunities to reaffirm their love.

DF

[Dontait...@aol.com]

The RCA paperwork about the CSO, from 1925 onward, was indeed copied legally. Since you asked.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

I wish I had one! It's a famous blunder. Later copies had "3" in place of the 5, but in a clumsier, larger typeface.

Don Tait

[David Fox]

Don - you have no need to even respond to such ridiculous charges. Your
expertise is a known quantity to many on this newsgroup and to even more
outside of it. There are those here who react to expert information as
vampires react to sunlight. Responding to these ridiculous claims will
not yield the desired effect. It will invariably lead only to more
frustration. Next time feel free to ignore the trolls entirely. Once
that becomes a habit, participating in this newsgroup becomes much more
enjoyable.

DF

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Yes. It would be a very foolish man to question Mark Obert-Thorn's statements. Especially because in this case he is completely correct.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Dear David,

Thank you so much for this. I thought about not responding to this man, just as you said, but decided upon my slight one. Upon reflection, I agree with you.

What you wrote means much. All I'd like to do is to share with everyone in this group.

Don Tait

[David Fox]

Don,

In the past I've made the mistake of responding. It was a pointless
exercise and at the end of it all I invariably felt worse. I realized
that this negativity was seriously diminishing my enjoyment of the
newsgroup. Why should that be and why should I grant anyone the power
to make me feel that way? I actually left for a while and then
reconsidered. Why should I leave? I've been participating in this
newsgroup for twenty years! I've seen the bad drive out many of the
good and by leaving I was only allying myself with that process.

I resolved to come back to the newsgroup on my own terms. I just don't
let the negativity gain the upper hand. I don't participate in
name-calling or off-topic divisive threads and most importantly I don't
respond to trolls. It's amazing how much more enjoyable things are when
you don't allow unwelcome parties to rent space in your head. It really
comes down to a simple choice.

So please continue to share with the group! Every person such as
yourself who follows suit increases the signal-to-noise ratio and
provides that much more reason for other quality participants to stay -
and who knows, perhaps encourages an old friend or two to reconsider
their departure. It would be nice if the trolls got starved out, but
I'm a realist. If we ignore them, the end effect is the same.

DF

[wagnerfan]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 11:43:46 -0700, David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I try to ignore the mean old bastard but its hard sometimes. Blocking
him helps. So many good contributors have left because of his
pettinees and jealousy but we need contributors like Don and many
others who have a wealth of information they are willing to share -
they are MUCH appreciated. As for Deacon - let him stay out of the
sun. Wagner fan

[wagnerfan]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 11:11:06 -0700 (PDT), "Dontait...@aol.com"
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:45:44 PM UTC-5, td wrote:

Perhaps Deacon thinks its ok to question Obert-Thorn -after all,
according to Deacon he is only an amateur isn;t he???? Wagner Fan

[Kerrison]

Quite correct. I too have that German LP set and have listened over
headphones while switching between 'mono' and 'stereo' on the amp.
There is no difference at all in the sound either way, these LPs being
mono throughout. The erroneous word "Stereo" appears in 12 point Sans
Serif in one place only, on the back cover, and not on the LP labels
nor anywhere else. The mono "Jupiter" in this set did come out later
in stereo on VICS-1366 where it was coupled with the Haydn 88th.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

I am with Jeff, totally. I attended Reiner/CSO concerts. I have a multitude of thoughts. It's hard to know where to begin, but....

First, perhaps: Reiner could be rhythmically stiff and slow and unyielding and inflexible. When he was bored, I believe. I heard it myself at concerts, and there was a remark to his stand-partner by the CSO violinist Royal Johnson (a famous wit) during a pause in a particularly static Reiner concert: "do you think we'll ever see our loved ones again?" That rigidity could happen on Reiner's recordings and, for me, makes those of them unpleasant.

Reiner's recordings do not possess the intensity and flexibility that his live performances did. So it goes. In recording sessions he used to say "play with inspiration, not perspiration." He always tried to work with the longest takes possible. He hated having recording sessions become technical exercises. What he wanted was the utmost "inspiration" he heard in the takes. He would pass those for release. And occasionally there were small errors of intonatation or playing. Reiner would pass them because he thought the overall take had a spirit he wanted.

Unfortunately, some have used those occasional technical and intonational errors in some of Reiner's CSO Victor recordings to advance the argument that Reiner's CSO was an inferior orchestra. That is ridiculous. I can only mention what Leopold Stokowski said to us in Orchestra Hall one evening in 1961: "This is a GREAT or-hesstra! Take them to your hearts!" I was there. And that was the Stokowski who made the Philadelphia Orchestra and who knew what a great orchestra was and didn't need to say any of that.

So technical glitches in Reiner's CSO's playing on recordings don't mean it was a bad orchestra. It means that he passed takes that had little mistakes because he wanted takes he thought had greater spontaneity.

Nevertheless, Reiner live was greater than on most of his recordings. Live things are better, more flexible, and spontaneous. Made available by the CSO: another, previous, poster was completely correct about Schumann's 2nd Symphony. The Prokofiev 5th has poor sound but is a shattering performance. Kodaly's Dances of Galanta are just stupendous, although the 1954/5-or-so television sound is mediocre at best. The Reiner excitement comes through, regardless. This is white-hot stuff and as flexible as could be dreamt of.

Finally: the CSO's sound on Reiner recordings. I've read comments here. First: remember that on any LP or CD or anything else, one is hearing an electronic reproduction of the sound at the recording session. Much depends upon all of the electronics. Early Reiner/CSO CDs (say 1990/97) had a bright, thin, bass-shy sound? Indeed they did. But assuming that that is what the CSO with Reiner sounded like in person is completely wrong. As is then proclaiming pejorative judgements about the Reiner/CSO sound based upon those sonically-flawed CDs. Earlier LPs, too.

Briefly: I heard Reiner and the CSO live in Orchestra Hall. It was a sound of unforgettble tonal beauty and depth and richness. Especially the "low end" of the CSO's sound. Reiner always said "I will not tolerate dead tone!" and I'll never forget the sound of Wagner's Lohengrin preludes and Tannhauser Overture (Dresden version), Mozart 39th, Tchaikovsky 5th, and Beethoven Pastoral.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Ask Edward Metzinger.

Don Tait

[wade]

yes he recorded the brandenburgs for Columbia with a pickup ens.

[Mr. Mike]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 05:43:33 -0700 (PDT), GMS <slidem...@aol.com>
wrote:

>Mozart 41 was the only Mozart Symphony recorded by Reiner/CSO in genuine stereo---the others were all mono only. (They did appear on half-track tape but, again, in mono only.)

I have all four on a 2-LP German set in the series "Meister spielen
meister," RCA PVM 2-9071. Despite the fact it says "Stereo 2 LP" on
the back cover, and the (P) date for all four is 1957, NONE of them
are in stereo.

[Mr. Mike]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 14:41:52 -0700 (PDT), td <tomde...@mac.com>
wrote:

>Without getting out my turntable to verify this, I am led to believe
>that the Germans located stereo tapes. It seems unlikely that they
>would plaster STEREO in large print on this set knowing full well that
>they were selling mono recordings and passing them off as stereo.

I just listened to the beginning of all four through headphones. If
this is stereo, it's probably the worst stereo ever. I have the 41st
(in stereo) on a CD somewhere, I think it's with Beethoven's 7th.

[Mr. Mike]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 08:27:09 -0700, law...@webtv.net (Lawrence
Chalmers) wrote:

>I'm hoping there will be a US release and that
>the Leiberman work will be included. The original lp had the mono (?)
>Don Juan on the other side.

The Don Juan was recorded in stereo and as I recall it was coupled
with some other work, I think the first RCA release of Heldenleben.

[Mr. Mike]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 17:26:45 -0700, Mr. Mike <m...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>The Don Juan was recorded in stereo and as I recall it was coupled
>with some other work, I think the first RCA release of Heldenleben.

Oops, the earlier Don Juan was coupled with Mahler's 4th on the
"medallion" issue.

The later Don Juan was the one with Heldenleben. See

http://www.mjq.net/misc/reiner-dj1.jpg
http://www.mjq.net/misc/reiner-dj2.jpg

[Steve de Mena]

On 5/16/13 9:05 PM, Mort wrote:

> More recently, a William Kapell CD box set was reissued as 24 bit
> re-mastered sound. In fact, the timings are exactly the same as the
> older CDs to the second, and the sounds are also identical.
>

> Take it from whence it comes.
>
> Good listening.
>
> Mort Linder

The Kapell CD box does not state it was remastered.

Steve

[RiRiIII]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 3:54:12 PM UTC+3, Mark Obert-Thorn wrote:
> On May 16, 5:06 am, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's see the things that make the box worth getting are the stuff
>
> > that had short CD shelf life, mono-only, or no Living Stereo CD re-
>
> > issue, like the '62/60 Zarathustra/Don Juan
>
>
>
> The '60 Don Juan was released on a Living Stereo SACD as the filler
>
> for Don Quixote, misdated as the 1954 version. It's in three-channel,
>
> while the 1954 version (which was on the original redbook Living
>
> Stereo CD) is in two-channel. Also, the timings are different. The
>
> only Reiner/CSO recording which hasn't seen CD release yet anywhere is
>
> "The Star-Spangled Banner".
>
>
>
> Mark O-T

Thanks. The'60 Don Juan was also part of the original 1993 red book living stereo CD coupled with the "Reiner conducts Wagner" excerpts.

Alex

[RiRiIII]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 9:58:35 AM UTC+3, skyf...@gmail.com wrote:
> also, the Horowitz Live 41cd + dvd
> >

> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Vladimir-Horowitz-Life-at-Carnegie-Hall/hnum/3457492

>
> btw, how good/bad the sound of Reiner LP recordings (the Living Stereo excluded) ? I asked because I listened to a Japanese release of the Beethoven 9th some years ago, and it was not pleasant at all.
>

> > It is good to know that they are going to remaster some materials for this 2013 release (from the jpc product description).


Also there: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/handle-buy-box/ref=dp_start-bbf_1_glance

[td]

On May 17, 12:04 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 5/16/13 10:45 PM, Mark S wrote:
>
> > On May 15, 11:06 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Just saw on JPC.de:
>
> >>http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Fritz-Reiner-Complete-Ch...
>
> > Finally! - an el cheapo multi-CD box set that I can pass on without
> > losing any sleep.
>
> > I really don't get the whole Reiner worship thing. Lord knows I've
> > tried (and by Lord, I'm referring to Odin).
>
> I tend to agree.  It's not that I don't think Reiner was a superior
> conductor - I just don't view his recordings as an interpretive gold
> standard. RCA Living Stereo recordings were the best recorded sound
> produced up until their time, but they are far from the all-time apex of
> recorded sound as many audiophiles have categorized them.

Well, how good it is to have that decided once and for all.

TD

[td]

On May 17, 1:27 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>

Legally? Hmmmm. Well, that makes me feel so happy.

Now, how about accurately?

Oh, I guess we shall just have to trust your copying.

Frankly, I would far rather hear this from RCA/Sony itself, which is
not a comment on your diligence or honesty, just a desire to have it
from the horse's mouth.

TD

[td]

On May 17, 2:06 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You're getting your tits in a knot over nothing.

There were NO charges. Just questions. And I still have them. If you
don't, you're more of a fool than I have always thought.

TD

[td]

On May 17, 2:25 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

> On Friday, May 17, 2013 1:06:36 PM UTC-5, David Fox wrote:

Coo, coo, coo.

TD

[td]

On May 17, 2:43 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 5/17/13 11:25 AM, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Friday, May 17, 2013 1:06:36 PM UTC-5, David Fox wrote:

The way you feel is entirely in your own hands. Look not in your
stars, but into the mirror.

No amount of sour commentary from the likes of you will ever spoil my
day, or inhibit my contributions to RMCR, which is an open unmoderated
forum of opinion. I take yours on face value without feeling obliged
to inform you as to what I do with it. I respond as I see fit
regardless of the good or bad feelings my response may engender in
you.

You will do as you like, stay, leave, comment, not comment. Whatever.
It really makes no nevermind, you know.

TD

[td]

It is also interesting to note (had you overlooked that?) that the
word "mono" appears nowhere in this set.

TD

[William Sommerwerck]

>> I tend to agree. It's not that I don't think Reiner was a superior
>> conductor - I just don't view his recordings as an interpretive gold
>> standard. RCA Living Stereo recordings were the best recorded sound
>> produced up until their time, but they are far from the all-time apex of
>> recorded sound as many audiophiles have categorized them.

> Well, how good it is to have that decided once and for all.

It happens to be true. Reiner was unquestionably one of the great 20C
conductors, but when I heard Kempe conduct Strauss, I heard what I was
missing.

Likewise, the best modern recordings are far superior to Living Stereo -- they
come significantly closer to sounding like "the real thing".

[td]

Please point us to a living conductor fit to do anything but kiss Reiner's feet.

TD

[Randy Lane]

If you are a Brit, Simon Rattle.

[O]

In article <30e690b6-5af4-4737...@googlegroups.com>, td

<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:

> Please point us to a living conductor fit to do anything but kiss Reiner's
> feet.
>

James Levine, who's still alive last I checked.

-Owen

[William Sommerwerck]

Sawallish died recently. How about Thomas Dausgaard?

Look, Reiner is one of the all-time greats. I remain startled at the
remarkably consistent high quality of his conducting. But he's hardly the only
conductor who's given us thrilling, insightful performances.

[patterbear]

On May 19, 2:37 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you are a Brit, Simon Rattle.

Uh...sorry, but you've got to be kidding. Right?

[patterbear]

On May 19, 2:46 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article <30e690b6-5af4-4737...@googlegroups.com>, td
>

> <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Please point us to a living conductor fit to do anything but kiss Reiner's
> > feet.
>
> James Levine, who's still alive last I checked.
>
> -Owen

Not in my book.

[Randy Lane]

Sort of. I don't think much of Mr. Rattle's music making, though there are a few decent recordings. But if their concert and recording critics are to be taken as evidence of the opinions of the British citizenry, then IMHO Brits regard him as at least the equivalent of a Reiner.

[Mark S]

On May 19, 2:35 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> Please point us to a living conductor fit to do anything but kiss Reiner's feet.
>
> TD

Living conductors? Abbado, Muti, Maazel, Chailly, Pretre, for
starters. All of them Reiner's equal in some respects and his superior
in others.

But easy for me to say as Reiner usually leaves me cold. There are a
few exceptions, of course.

And compared to his contemporaries - Toscanini, Szell, Klemps,
Karajan, Walter, to name but a few - Reiner is way down my list of who
I want to hear conducting most music.

[Ray Hall]

td wrote:
> Please point us to a living conductor fit to do anything but kiss Reiner's feet.
>
> TD
>

Rozzer.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Ray Hall]

Szell, just for starters, was a greater conductor in a wider range of
repertoire.

Reiner's way was icy cold, and literal, although he wasn't a bad
Straussian, and Bartok suited him.

Ray Hall, Taree

[wanwan]

It just goes to show you, different strokes for different folks.
Listening to a lot of Szell & Reiner last year, I kinda feel just the
opposite. (Though with Szell, the "live" stuff IMO is different from
his studio work) I was listening to a bunch of Kodaly, Wagner,
Bartok, Rossini, and Strauss and I thought Szell rather humorless.
Reiner while not LOL humorous has a kind of wit that I rather like.

As far as repertory, when you look at what Szell played in Cleveland,
it was a lot of the stuff he recorded and there was a lot of
repetition. Even with a shorter tenure, I thought Reiner had a more
interesting repertory.

-----------------
Eric

[richar...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 7:01:15 PM UTC-4, wade wrote:

> On Friday, May 17, 2013 8:27:09 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:
>
> > I'm hoping there will be a US release and that
>
> >
>
> > the Leiberman work will be included. The original lp had the mono (?)
>
> >
>
> > Don Juan on the other side.
>
> >
>

> > Did Reiner record the Brandenburgs? From the photo of the set it looks
>
> >
>
> > like original lp covers and
>
> >
>
> > disc counterparts.
>
> yes he recorded the brandenburgs for Columbia with a pickup ens.

The term "pick-up ensemble" doesn't do it justice. Implies going down to the Union on Wednesday afternoons, which used to be a custom, where contractors would "pick up" musicians for weekend club dates. The Brandenburg musicians were individually selected by Reiner and Columbia's contractor from among musicians with whom Reiner had worked over the years. They were members of the MET, the NYP, the NBC among other affiliations. It's an insult to call that a "pickup orchestra."

[Mort]

The box says, "24 bit high resolution audio". The previous Kapell CD box
did not say that. Are you implying that the original master recordings
were in 24 bit high resolution? Of course, that is impossible. How can
the new box really be in 24 bit high resolution and NOT be remastered?
It cannot. However, if you put a sign, "I am a racehorse" on the
forehead of a cow, it is still a cow.

Mort Linder

[Mort]

I saw Mr. Levine return to conducting yesterday at Carnegie Hall. He
was, in a word, superb.

Mort Linder

[Steve de Mena]

I was pretty clear in what I said - "The Kapell CD box does not state
it was remastered."

I can copy a tape from one bit rate to another and haven't done any
remastering.

Steve

[O]

In article <YOedndxIu9i0zgfM...@giganews.com>, Steve de

The original master recordings are probably on magnetic tape, or some
other analog medium. 24 bits only apply when the analog is converted
to digital and indicates the range of the numbers used to record the
samples.

-Owen

[William Sommerwerck]

"Steve de Mena" wrote in message
news:YOedndxIu9i0zgfM...@giganews.com...

> I can copy a tape from one bit rate to another
> and haven't done any remastering.

Not according to the audio industry. About a year ago I had a knock-down
drag-out fight in rec.audio.pro over exactly what a "master" recording was.

Dubbing a tape while changing the bit rate does, indeed create a new master
tape -- according to professional recording engineers. (I'm on your side in
this.)

[wade]

would you accept "adhoc" ensemble? short of naming the entire list of partcipants, what would be your term of preference?

[O]

In article <kndmhr$ur8$1...@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck

Huh? A master tape made at this time frame is an analog one.

If you dubbed a 16 bit digital source to a 24 bit source, you would
have no more of the original sound than what you started with, and
possibly some colorization of the original sound introduced by whatever
filters and DSP effects were used in the transfer.

-Owen

[William Sommerwerck]

>> Dubbing a tape while changing the bit rate does, indeed
>> create a new master tape -- according to professional
>> recording engineers. (I'm on your side in this.)

> Huh? A master tape made at this time frame is an analog one.

I'm not sure what you mean.

> If you dubbed a 16 bit digital source to a 24 bit source, you would
> have no more of the original sound than what you started with, and
> possibly some colorization of the original sound introduced by whatever
> filters and DSP effects were used in the transfer.

Of course. But the recording industry says that any "step" in the recording
chain can be a master.

[Mark S]

On May 20, 11:07 am, "William Sommerwerck"

That's because they can assert a new copyright on a remaster.

[Steve de Mena]

It's already in a digital medium as it's been released before on CD.
If they re-transferred it from analog tape they probably would have
used the "remastered" term.

"24 bits only apply when the analog is converted to digital"

I can go from 16bit digital to 24bit digital without any analog involved.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

In Pro Tools I often convert tracks to 24bit that were originally
16bit. There's not even a tape involved.

Steve