Pristine release: Toscanini's classic 1951 Verdi Requiem - in STEREO!
Andrew Rose
VERDI Requiem - NEW STEREO VERSION
PACO 048
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Vocal/PACO048.php
Herva Nelli - soprano
Fedora Barbieri - mezzo-soprano
Giuseppe di Stefano - tenor
Cesare Siepi - bass
The Robert Shaw Chorale
NBC Symphony Orchestra
conductor Arturo Toscanini
Recorded in 1951
"Accidental stereo" reconstruction from NBC and Carnegie Hall recordings
XR remastering by Andrew Rose at Pristine Audio, June-July 2010
Cover artwork based on a photograph of Toscanini
Total duration: 77:45
©2010 Pristine Audio.
"Toscanini conducts the work as if inspired by an apocalytic vision of
Death and Judgement and the result—neither operatic nor melodramatic—is
indescribably thrilling."
The Gramophone, December 1956
Opening:
1. Requiem Aeternam
2. Kyrie Eleison
320kbps MP3 sample: http://tinyurl.com/PACO048
Technical notes:
In the notes which accompany a current reissue of this Requiem
recording, as displayed on one eminent retailer's website, there is an
error of which perhaps the writer was unaware:
“Seven hundred hours of editing went into the original lp release
of this recording, caused by the fact that only NBC's radio recording
was left from the performance in 1951. The balance was problematic and
the end result included the original NBC tape relayed from Carnegie Hall
with some fillings in from the rehearsal takes. The original release was
highly acclaimed and won the Grand Prix du Disque as well as the Preise
der Deutschen Schallplatten Kritik.”
The error is a simple one to make – you see, the NBC tape was not the
only recording left from the performance. A second recording was made
inside the hall from a second microphone; it has been preserved these
past 59 years, and arrived in better shape than the unedited NBC
recording. This fact, however, is somewhat secondary to the most
crucial, vital point about the second recording: it was made using a
second microphone, positioned separately to the NBC's microphone. This
means it is, in theory at least, possible to reconstruct a stereophonic
recording using the two sources – or at least stereo of a kind.
A normal stereo recording, at it's most simple level, is best made using
two microphones carefully placed and directed in order to create the
most naturalistic stereophonic effect. The two outputs are recorded onto
two tracks or channels which run concurrently – in 1951 this would have
meant two tracks on one tape, had the technology been available at the
time. Because the two tracks are physically side-by-side on a single
tape and read by a single head, any fluctuation in tape speed will not
cause a divergence in the juxtaposition of the two channels and the
stereo image will remain absolutely stable.
By contrast, this Verdi recording begins with two microphones which have
been placed independently of each other. Each was positioned to record
the performance, but it's safe to assume both aimed to record the entire
ensemble, rather than concentrating on the left or right hand side of
the stage. As such we almost certainly don't have what recording
engineers term a 'coincident pair'. (Where they were actually positioned
is anyone's guess.)
Next we have two independent recording machines, each with its own
minute speed fluctuations, something which will be further exacerbated
on replay. Without some kind of time-code locking, no two analogue
recorders or replay machines will ever stay perfectly synchronised, so
our ideal of two channels on one tape and one replay head is also lost.
To add another complication to this already complex picture, one of the
two recordings appears to be 'straight', whereas the other has had some
kind of 'gain riding' – raising the volume levels of the quieter
sections and attenuating the levels of the louder sections.
Finally, and unsurprisingly, both have different tonal characteristics
(different microphones and recording equipment) and both have emerged in
differing states of disrepair some six decades after the event.
To attempt to deal with all of these issues would have perhaps been an
insurmountable task until very recently indeed. The key technologies
which have made the present release possible are only recently developed
– and though no doubt further advances might at some day in the future
make this kind of work simpler, and possibly produce better results, I
think the results here are truly something to marvel at and savour. I
try to remain modest here – I have been the mere manipulator of tools I
could not hope to construct.
Work began on the project in much the same way as I would normally
proceed. The recordings were re-pitched to a standard A440 following
basic de-clicking. The issues of tonal differences between them become
irrelevant during the XR process, as each is re-equalised to a common
reference, and then to each other, in order produce as close a tonal
match as possible. This is done using high resolution computer analyses
of the average frequency responses of each recording across its entirety
and using very precise equalisation tools to match the two.
Next comes the tricky part – mixing the two halves into a single
'stereo' track. I used an educated guess as to the relative position of
the microphones in order to determine which was left and which was
right. Then began the painstaking task of lining the two up. Speed
fluctuations on each track meant that synchronisation was forever being
lost: the two tracks went in and out of tune with each other, one
galloped ahead as the other fell behind, and so on. After hundreds of
edits and endless re-pitching and fine-tuning of short sections, often
corresponding to a handful of notes or a few short seconds of music,
some kind of result was achieved.
The resulting “stereo” mix was rather wild – voices and instruments
lurched from one side to another thanks to the gain-riding applied to
one track only. An automated procedure to centre the tracks seemed the
best solution here, adjusting the two channels simultaneously in volume
to balance out the discrepancies between them. This is inevitably a
compromise, but it seems to work.
Now began the fine-tuning – thousands of manual corrections to deal with
pops, clicks, crackles, slight shifts in synchronisation previously
missed and so forth. One particular brass entry, for just two notes,
suddenly diverged in pitch – for a moment the glass-like clarity NBC
brass section became more like the sound of a drunken Oom-Pah band at
the tail-end of a Munich beer festival.
Gradually these flaws were addressed and things began to fall together,
and I was able to unleash another new 'secret weapon' – the automatic
phase corrector. This analyses the two channels and looks for
similarities and phase discrepancies between them, constantly adjusting
their relative position in order to further fine-tune synchronisation.
(A coarser version of the same would have saved me a huge amount of
work, but this operates in the realms of milli- and micro-seconds.) The
result is a further marriage of the two halves and a highly integrated
stereo image – at least for much of the time.
Now although an 'accidental stereo' recording such as this cannot match
an intentional one, it is clear by switching between the two individual
mono channels and the stereo hybrid that a massive leap has been made on
behalf of the listener. At its best, and this is true for long sections
of the recording, the stereo is remarkably convincing and adds hugely to
the experience of the listener. At its lesser moments there is some
blurring of the picture, some apparent wandering of the image, but
although the fine detail of soundstage is lost, the impact rarely
diminishes.
One can but hope that the discovery of these two independent recordings
of this concert may lead to other similar instances coming to light. In
the meantime one can only marvel at the good fortune that such an
important concert recording turned out to have a long-hidden partner,
ready to be reconstructed into the dramatic and thrilling musical
document we present here. My thanks again go out to those who have
freely contributed source recordings for this project, who discovered
that such a reconstruction was possible, and took the first experimental
steps in the realisation of this project.
Technical notes by Andrew Rose
--
Andrew Rose
Pristine Classical: "The destination for people interested in historic
recordings..." (Gramophone)
ansermetniac
It ain't stereo. And if it is from Andrew Rose, it ain't music
Total marketing bullshit. And where did the tape from the second mic
come from???????
Abbedd
Gerard
>
> It ain't stereo.
Of course it is. It is liberated from the mono.
>
> And if it is from Andrew Rose, it ain't music
>
> Total marketing bullshit.
That's probably right.
But at least he wrote "I try to remain modest here".
Have you ever tried?
ansermetniac
So you spent all those hours synching a pastiche of the broadcast and
the rehearsal with a supposed second mic placement from the broadcast.
Two totally different performances synched. What a fuckin' joke from
the douche of digital. The Musical anti-Christ
BTW compared to the 1940 perfroamce this one is total crap.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
What does he have to be modest about?
Abbedd
>
Ward Hardman - why lobotomy is still legal in the USA
> A normal stereo recording, at it's most simple level,
Grocer's apostrophe. Enough said.
pianomaven
> New Release Today:
>
> VERDI Requiem - NEW STEREO VERSION
> PACO 048
It is known that there is a mike near the roof of CH which routinely
records all concerts there.
It is very likely this mike which supplied the "other" view of the
concert.
It is NOT stereo, not even "ACCIDENTAL STEREO". It is simply an
accidental recording.
And then you have to ask whether stereo would ever save Toscanini's
Verdi Requiem. The faults were on the stage, not in the miking.
TD
Juan Rey
Is that true, Andrew? That one of your recordings is a mixture of two
performances? If so...
Andrew Rose
No it's not - as the notes make clear. That would not only be
impossible, but also incredibly stupid.
The tape from the second mic came from someone well-known on the various
Toscanini Yahoo groups from which Abbedd has been banned - he could have
downloaded it himself if this were not the case. The person in question
prefers to remain anonymous outside of the group for the purposes of
this release.
We have two recordings here:
1 - the NBC broadcast (not the patched released, but the original,
unedited feed)
2 - the Carnegie Hall tape, similarly unedited
To be absolutely clear, some editing of audience noise between sections
had taken place on one of the recordings, but the musical content is
identical and entirely un-cut.
Pan one to the left and the other to the right and you get what's known
as 'accidental stereo' - as long as you can get the two to sync up.
But why read all this and ask ridiculous questions when you have a pair
of ears?
prick@.com
Romy the Cat
Audio. Here is another example of the “idiot in action”. Here is a
reportedly stereo version of a historic recording and the Pristine’s
dirt still destroys it with his XR crap. When this cretin will quit
this job and return back to pimping Russian whores in red districts?
It is sad that the retards of the Andrew Rose caliber are even
permitted to sell music. I think retroaction of historical recording
shall be licensed to the peoples who have at least minimalistic
cultural reference and understanding, not to mention proven technical
ability. I think what Andrew Rose does is criminal in cultural sense
and any person who buy, sell or in any other way associated with
Pristine is committed no less cultural crime then donating money to
rebuild the new era concentration camp. Years back the assholes
without consciousness burned books. Nowadays the French asshole with
identical consciousness burns historical recordings with his barbaric,
music-destining, digital toys. The methods are different but the
results are identical. Burn to hell Andrew Rose, burn to hell Pristine
Audio and burn to hell the people who deal with Rose/ Pristine in any
form or shape.
ansermetniac
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>Toscanini Yahoo groups from which Abbedd has been banned
I was banned fro posting Cantelli broadcasts by the Fuehrer of the
group and for my comments about the BMG CDs which said Fuehrer thinks
sound fine even though they are musically bankrupt
Abbedd
----@.com
Romy the Cat another ass hole
jfddoc
>
> - Show quoted text -
So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't know
how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with Cantelli and
she really does fall apart on the high note.
ivanmaxim
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
> including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't know
> how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with Cantelli and
>
> - Show quoted text -
My understanding is that it was just the B flat - you can certainly
hear the change in the acoustic at that part in the performance on the
commercial release. On the other hand, both the complete arias in the
Aida set had to be redone - also the Ballo aria (?) Wagner fan
ivanmaxim
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
> including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't know
> how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with Cantelli and
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tough note - even Zinka has her problems Wagner fan
jfddoc
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
> > including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't know
> > how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with Cantelli and
> > she really does fall apart on the high note.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes...Zinka wobbles...but she gets there. HN (on the Cantelli)
falls apart and doesn't even sing her next phrase. There is a drum
roll and then the chorus comes in.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:08f843f6-b5c1-426d-929d-30d01ff0a659
@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, jfddoc <jfd...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
>> including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't know
>> how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with Cantelli and
>> she really does fall apart on the high note.- Hide quoted text -
>
> My understanding is that it was just the B flat - you can certainly
> hear the change in the acoustic at that part in the performance on the
> commercial release. On the other hand, both the complete arias in the
> Aida set had to be redone - also the Ballo aria (?) Wagner fan
I take it you're referring to the June 1954 retakes, which thus was the
true close of Toscanini's conducting career? I clearly remember Paul Renzi
(Jr.) telling me, many years ago, that they also did a retake of the intro
to "Va, pensiero," with him on first flute, because "Carmine Coppola
couldn't play the scale in tune."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
ivanmaxim
> ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
Yes there were a number of retakes in Carnegie Hall -I don't recall
Nelli messing up Aidas first aria during the actual bcast but she
definitely screws up the second. Both were redone. Wagner fan
ansermetniac
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>) telling me, many years ago, that they also did a retake of the intro
>to "Va, pensiero," with him on first flute, because "Carmine Coppola
>couldn't play the scale in tune."
An dif you believe that you are stupider than I think you are. would
you like to hear the broadcast?
Abbedd
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm referring of course to the broadcast/telecast - even with the
negligable cast, fascinating to watch. Wgner fan
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> On Jul 30, 4:25 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 30, 4:11 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>> > letters to be typed in news:08f843f6-b5c1-426d-929d-30d01ff0a659
>> > @k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > > On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, jfddoc <jfd...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > >> So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
>> > >> including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libra Me? I don't
>> > >> know how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD with
>> > >> Cantelli and she really does fall apart on the high note.
>>
>> > > My understanding is that it was just the B flat - you can certainly
>> > > hear the change in the acoustic at that part in the performance on
>> > > the commercial release. On the other hand, both the complete arias
>> > > in the Aida set had to be redone - also the Ballo aria (?)
>> > > Wagner fan
>>
>> > I take it you're referring to the June 1954 retakes, which thus was
>> > the true close of Toscanini's conducting career? I clearly remember
>> > Paul Renzi (Jr.) telling me, many years ago, that they also did a
>> > retake of the intro to "Va, pensiero," with him on first flute,
>> > because "Carmine Coppola couldn't play the scale in tune."
>>
>> Yes there were a number of retakes in Carnegie Hall -I don't recall
>> Nelli messing up Aidas first aria during the actual bcast but she
>> definitely screws up the second. Both were redone. Wagner fan
>
> I'm referring of course to the broadcast/telecast - even with the
> negligable cast, fascinating to watch. Wagner fan
Oh, Tucker's not bad.
mark
> ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
Tucker is wonderful in that Aida.
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
He's OK but compared to the rest of the cast he is Caruso -
technically fine but nothing special beyond that which I can
understand since in the telecast he looks scared to death. Wagner fan
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> On Jul 30, 8:30 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 30, 4:40 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>> > letters to be typed innews:37363a96-4218-46a8-97dc-1d9510d3c94c@w30g2
>> > 000yqw.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > > On Jul 30, 4:25 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> On Jul 30, 4:11 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > >> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
>> > >> > following letters to be typed in news:08f843f6-b5c1-426d-929d-
>> > >> > 30d01f...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > >> > > On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, jfddoc <jfd...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > >> > >> So this would mean that the CD contains the live performance
>> > >> > >> including Herva Nelli's "difficulties" in the Libera Me? I
>> > >> > >> don't know how bad these are, but I have heard the live NYP CD
>> > >> > >> with Cantelli and she really does fall apart on the high note.
>>
>> > >> > > My understanding is that it was just the B flat - you can
>> > >> > > certainly hear the change in the acoustic at that part in the
>> > >> > > performance on the commercial release. On the other hand, both
>> > >> > > the complete arias in the Aida set had to be redone - also the
>> > >> > > Ballo aria (?)
>> > >> > > Wagner fan
>>
>> > >> > I take it you're referring to the June 1954 retakes, which thus
>> > >> > was the true close of Toscanini's conducting career? I clearly
>> > >> > remember Paul Renzi (Jr.) telling me, many years ago, that they
>> > >> > also did a retake of the intro to "Va, pensiero," with him on
>> > >> > first flute, because "Carmine Coppola couldn't play the scale in
>> > >> > tune."
>>
>> > >> Yes there were a number of retakes in Carnegie Hall -I don't recall
>> > >> Nelli messing up Aidas first aria during the actual bcast but she
>> > >> definitely screws up the second. Both were redone. Wagner fan
>>
>> > > I'm referring of course to the broadcast/telecast - even with the
>> > > negligable cast, fascinating to watch. Wagner fan
>>
>> > Oh, Tucker's not bad.
>>
>> Tucker is wonderful in that Aida.
>
> He's OK but compared to the rest of the cast he is Caruso - technically
> fine but nothing special beyond that which I can understand since in the
> telecast he looks scared to death. Wagner fan
Tucker's far from my ideal Radames. In times since this broadcast, there
have been the young Domingo, and Bergonzi, which latter was actually able to
do the diminuendo on the final note in "Celeste Aida." (Tucker famously or
infamously takes the drop-down-an-octave-and-repeat alternative.)
As for the singers' on-air appearance, Nelli looks as though she's reading
the words off the ceiling, Gustafson postures and preens like a New Jersey
seductress, and the other men -- I don't even remember how they present
themselves on camera, which probably means something in itself.
mark
I'd be scared to death too.
This was the first complete opera b'cast ever done on American TV,
after all. And under Toscanini, no less. Let's also remember that
Tucker was only 4 years into his professional singing career at the
time. Wasn't this also the first time Tucker sang the role? I thought
that he didn't actually essay the part onstage until the mid 60s.
Lots to be nervous about. Even Tucker was human.
mark
>"Celeste Aida." (Tucker famously or
> infamously takes the drop-down-an-octave-and-repeat alternative.)
IIRC, that alternative was sanctioned by Verdi, so it can't be
"infamous."
>
> As for the singers' on-air appearance, Nelli looks as though she's reading
> the words off the ceiling.
That makes sense, as Nelli was reportedly busy working "under
Toscanini" during their offstage time as well.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:6dba4ca5-0538-477a-a459-9ca9ffc71758
@g6g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 31, 9:05 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> "Celeste Aida." (Tucker famously or infamously takes the drop-down-an-
>> octave-and-repeat alternative.)
>
> IIRC, that alternative was sanctioned by Verdi, so it can't be
> "infamous."
I'm well aware of that; but it still seems to me to be a way of avoiding
trying to sing it the way Verdi originally wrote it. Has anybody else
taken this alternative, at least in recordings?
>> As for the singers' on-air appearance, Nelli looks as though she's
>> reading the words off the ceiling.
>
> That makes sense, as Nelli was reportedly busy working "under
> Toscanini" during their offstage time as well.
Of course; and it was probably one of the two things she did best. The
other was cooking; it certainly wasn't singing.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in
news:befe02d2-a7f7-4284...@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 30, 6:40 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 30, 8:30 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 30, 4:40 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
>> > > following letters to be typed in news:37363a96-4218-46a8-97dc-
>> > > 1d9510...@w30g2000yqw.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > > > On Jul 30, 4:25 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> On Jul 30, 4:11 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net>
>> > > >> wrote:
>>
>> > > >> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
>> > > >> > following letters to be typed in news:08f843f6-b5c1-426d-929d-
>> > > >> > 30d01f...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>> > Tucker is wonderful in that Aida.
>>
>> He's OK but compared to the rest of the cast he is Caruso - technically
>> fine but nothing special beyond that which I can understand since in the
>> telecast he looks scared to death. Wagner fan
>
> I'd be scared to death too.
>
> This was the first complete opera b'cast ever done on American TV, after
> all. And under Toscanini, no less. Let's also remember that Tucker was
> only 4 years into his professional singing career at the time. Wasn't
> this also the first time Tucker sang the role? I thought that he didn't
> actually essay the part onstage until the mid 60s.
>
> Lots to be nervous about. Even Tucker was human.
When Toscanini conducted "Die Zauberflöte" at Salzburg, a young Hungarian
soprano, Julia Osvath, sang the Queen of the Night. Supposedly, she only
found out the day of the performance that it was to be broadcast, and she
fell to pieces during her arias. Nowadays, with very advanced editing
techniques and the infamous Auto-Tune, I imagine an attempt could be made
to fix these performances up. Heck, I wouldn't mind hearing that done with
Florence Foster Jenkins' recordings, just for the fun of it.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
jfddoc
> mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed innews:befe02d2-a7f7-4284...@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 6:40 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 30, 8:30 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Jul 30, 4:40 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> > > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
> >> > > following letters to be typed in news:37363a96-4218-46a8-97dc-
>
> >> > > > On Jul 30, 4:25 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> On Jul 30, 4:11 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net>
> >> > > >> wrote:
>
> >> > > >> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
> >> > > >> > following letters to be typed in news:08f843f6-b5c1-426d-929d-
OK...
After obtaining an air check, I can report that Nelli goes terribly
flat a few bars before the high note, which throws off the chorus
too. In the end, she doesn't even attempt it..she sings it down an
octave (I think!). And at the end of the movement, where Zinka M
infamously came in a bar early......Nelli doesn't come in at all,
leaving the chorus to fend for itself. She recovers by the next
phrase.
Caveat Emptor!
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh I agree!!! Wagner fan
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi may I ask where you obtained the actual broadcast -I have a ton of
live non-commercial Toscanini but that hasn't turned up yet thanks
jay
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> OK...
>
> After obtaining an air check, I can report that Nelli goes terribly
> flat a few bars before the high note, which throws off the chorus
> too. In the end, she doesn't even attempt it..she sings it down an
> octave (I think!). And at the end of the movement, where Zinka M
> infamously came in a bar early......Nelli doesn't come in at all,
> leaving the chorus to fend for itself. She recovers by the next
> phrase.
>
> Caveat Emptor!
Disasters happen. I am reminded of the Verdi Requiem conducted at
the Met in 1959 by Bruno Walter. It was a work he loved (as he loved
Verdi's operas and promoted them) and for which he had been famous for
decades. He conducted it at the Met several times over the years
around Easter. 1959 was the last time he conducted it. There were two
or three performances that year. None was broadcast, but there was a
recording made of it, which survives.
During one of the performances, Zinka Milanov, the soprano,
collapsed. There was a long pause while she was carried off the stage.
She was replaced for the rest of the performance by Heidi Krall. I was
told about it by my friend Andy Karzas, who was there and witnessed
it.
That might be the recording I have here; I'd have to play it again.
If it was, it had been edited to remove Milanov's collapse. It might
have Heidi Krall.
It is, otherwise, a great performance of the Verdi Requiem from
Bruno Walter. He was no longer in good health in 1959, but one would
never know. The one person who sniped at the performances was Erich
Leinsdorf in his book "Cadenza," who claimed that Walter was so
"enfeebled" that he couldn't keep the chorus together with anyone.
RUBBISH! It's there to hear. Nasty. And to think that Leinsdorf got
his first "break" from Bruno Walter at Salzburg.
Don Tait
ansermetniac
The broadcast and dress were posted in operashare or the yahoo at
group led by Steckler
Abbedd
ivanmaxim
I would also love to hear the actual Toscanini Falstaff broadcast from
1950 - I understand the tenor ran into real problems with his third
Act aria Wagner fan.
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Really??? - I'll check it out thanks Wagner fan
Peter Greenstein
tell when Krall replaces Milanov though I don't recall a commotion over a
collapse.
It is a powerful performance and remarkable for late Bruno Walter. I have
Walter's "La Forza" and "Un Ballo" at the MET. I wonder if there is any
other Verdi?
peter
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3306eee5-16d2-4e10...@f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 31, 4:50 pm, jfddoc <jfd...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
> That might be the recording I have here; I'd have to play it again.
Sol L. Siegel
news:Xns9DC67ABDEAF...@216.168.3.70:
> When Toscanini conducted "Die Zauberflöte" at Salzburg, a young
> Hungarian soprano, Julia Osvath, sang the Queen of the Night.
> Supposedly, she only found out the day of the performance that it was
> to be broadcast, and she fell to pieces during her arias. Nowadays,
> with very advanced editing techniques and the infamous Auto-Tune, I
> imagine an attempt could be made to fix these performances up. Heck,
> I wouldn't mind hearing that done with Florence Foster Jenkins'
> recordings, just for the fun of it.
***NEVER!!!!***
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
"M.W. Kluge"
Actually, Don, the copy of the recording I have heard does include the
collapse. There is nothing really to hear other than that the
performance stops, there is some rustling and murmuring, then it picks
up again at the beginning of that section. The pause was clearly
shortened on the tape - it may have seemed like an eternity in the
house.
Mark
mark
> New Release Today:
>
> VERDI Requiem - NEW STEREO VERSION
> PACO 048
>
> http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Vocal/PACO048.php
So, I went to your site and listened to the excerpt you have posted.
It seems severely distorted. I also listened to the Rheingold excerpt
- it was not distorted.
What's the reason for the distortion on the Verdi?
Dontait...@aol.com
> Yes, I have the Bruno Walter Verdi Requiem on an AS Disc. I think you can
> tell when Krall replaces Milanov though I don't recall a commotion over a
> collapse.
>
> It is a powerful performance and remarkable for late Bruno Walter. I have
> Walter's "La Forza" and "Un Ballo" at the MET. I wonder if there is any
> other Verdi?
Those complete Met performances are treasures -- do you agree? To
answer your question, I know of excerpts from various live Vienna
State Opera performances conducted by Walter that were issued in the
large series of Koch-Schwann CD releases during the 1990s. Just
snippets, supposedly as recorded. Of Verdi there are six excerpts from
Aida from September 26, 1937 in 3-1457-2 Y4 (2 discs) (cast: Todor
Mazaroff, t.; Maria Nemeth, s.; Kerstin Thorborg, m-s.; Alexander
Sved; Herbert Alsen). The set also contains brief excerpts from 1937
Walter performances of Carmen (8) and Pfitzner's Palestrina (9).
3-1450-2 contains "Dio, che nell'alma" from Verdi's Don Carlo
conducted by Walter November 7, 1937 (Todor Mazaroff, Don Carlo; Piero
Pierotic, Posa).
More non-Verdi: 3-1459-2 Y4 (2 discs) contains 17 excerpts from an
October 1936 Die Walkure conducted by Walter.
I tried to buy everything that featured him or Furtwangler or
Weingartner, but I might have missed something. There might be other
live Walter Verdi somewhere that hasn't surfaced yet.
The sound on the CD sets is problematic. The company made a big deal
at the time about how the lacquer discs had been "rescued" sonically,
but for me their computer work was excessive. The effort to expunge
any hint of surface noise from the original discs made the results
sound artificial. At least for me.
Bruno Walter was acclaimed for decades as one of the greatest of all
conductors of opera. The lack of opera in surviving recordings of his
work, commercial or live, is a frightful loss. Including Verdi, whose
music he always promoted and, on the basis of what survives, conducted
with consummate mastery and sense of style.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:8147712b-8df7-43de-962d-
dec292...@l32g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
> Those complete Met performances are treasures -- do you agree? To
> answer your question, I know of excerpts from various live Vienna
> State Opera performances conducted by Walter that were issued in the
> large series of Koch-Schwann CD releases during the 1990s. Just
> snippets, supposedly as recorded. Of Verdi there are six excerpts from
> Aida from September 26, 1937 in 3-1457-2 Y4 (2 discs) (cast: Todor
> Mazaroff, t.; Maria Nemeth, s.; Kerstin Thorborg, m-s.; Alexander
> Sved; Herbert Alsen). The set also contains brief excerpts from 1937
> Walter performances of Carmen (8) and Pfitzner's Palestrina (9).
>
> 3-1450-2 contains "Dio, che nell'alma" from Verdi's Don Carlo
> conducted by Walter November 7, 1937 (Todor Mazaroff, Don Carlo; Piero
> Pierotic, Posa).
>
> More non-Verdi: 3-1459-2 Y4 (2 discs) contains 17 excerpts from an
> October 1936 Die Walkure conducted by Walter.
>
> I tried to buy everything that featured him or Furtwangler or
> Weingartner, but I might have missed something. There might be other
> live Walter Verdi somewhere that hasn't surfaced yet.
>
> The sound on the CD sets is problematic. The company made a big deal
> at the time about how the lacquer discs had been "rescued" sonically,
> but for me their computer work was excessive. The effort to expunge
> any hint of surface noise from the original discs made the results
> sound artificial. At least for me.
Interestingly, an advance flyer for the series listed Toscanini among the
conductors. I don't know whether this meant that they were planning to
issue the various Selenophone recordings from Salzburg (SOME of which did
come out from Andante), or the extant shortwave snippets, including a
"Götterdämmerung" Funeral March. Whatever such plans might have been,
there was no Toscanini in the series as issued. I had to pick and choose,
but I did make sure that I got the three volumes including Weingartner, and
I have since bought one with Richard Strauss conducting "Salome" excerpts.
> Bruno Walter was acclaimed for decades as one of the greatest of all
> conductors of opera. The lack of opera in surviving recordings of his
> work, commercial or live, is a frightful loss. Including Verdi, whose
> music he always promoted and, on the basis of what survives, conducted
> with consummate mastery and sense of style.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Peter Greenstein
Walter are quite treasonable. The great dramatic intensity carries straight
through to the end, but then there is the great lyricism throughout. Same in
the Requiem. Not all the singing in the Forza was always up to most
memorable standards but it doesn't matter.
I had come to these quite late in my collecting of Walter, and they were
quite a revelation. In my youth, I probably never would have thought to
sample them if I even knew they existed. But after reading Bruno Walter's
autobiography and another biography I now know more about his youthful years
of working one-on-one with singers. And then in his "Music and Music
Making", I always remember Walter's philosophy of the importance of the
search for the "lyric" in music. Now I've discovered his Verdi opera
conducting and it is truly great opera conducting. As is the Beethoven
Fidelio, the Mozart at Salzburg and the MET. Ah, for a time machine, a
portable recorder and go back and record his Tristan!
I had a number of those Koch-Schwann sets when they were quite cheap at
Berkshire Record Outlet. They were quite interesting the first listen. The
sound didn't bother me so much, but the 3-5 minute excerpts with missing
pieces in between was frustrating. I lost them all in a house fire and
didn't bother to replace them.
peter
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8147712b-8df7-43de...@l32g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Dontait...@aol.com
> Interestingly, an advance flyer for the series listed Toscanini among the
> conductors. I don't know whether this meant that they were planning to
> issue the various Selenophone recordings from Salzburg (SOME of which did
> come out from Andante), or the extant shortwave snippets, including a
> "Götterdämmerung" Funeral March. Whatever such plans might have been,
> there was no Toscanini in the series as issued. I had to pick and choose,
> but I did make sure that I got the three volumes including Weingartner, and
> I have since bought one with Richard Strauss conducting "Salome" excerpts.
Toscanini conducted "Fidelio" at the Vienna State Opera during their
winter season -- 1936? After his sensation with the opera at Salzburg
the previous summer, anyway. He got talked into doing it. I don't
recall and would have to look it up. Perhaps bit from that? One would
love to hear *anything* from those performances.
I think I missed the Koch-Schwann CD of Strauss conducting "Salome"
excerpts. If so, a pity. Thanks.
Don Tait
Steven Bornfeld
> Yes, Don, despite sonic flaws the two complete Verdi operas with Bruno
> Walter are quite treasonable.
Did that come out right? ;-)
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Peter Greenstein
"Steven Bornfeld" <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote in message
news:i37fe8$qij$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 8/2/2010 4:46 PM, Peter Greenstein wrote:
>> Yes, Don, despite sonic flaws the two complete Verdi operas with Bruno
>> Walter are quite treasonable.
>
> Did that come out right? ;-)
>
> Steve
>
Oops! I wonder if that word came from spellchecker?
The fingers are not what they used to be. How much longer before I started
hitting Eb instead of Db?
peter
Matthew B. Tepper
@d17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
Toscanini wound up conducting four operas at Salzburg: "Zauberflöte,"
"Falstaff," "Die Meistersinger," and "Fidelio." Selenophone recordings
survived of the first three; that of the last was mislaid or lost. Andante
embarked on a project to have these restored by Ward Marston; only the
"Falstaff" and "Meistersinger" emerged from this project, as well as a
"Nozze di Figaro" conducted by Bruno Walter. (There was also a Walter "Don
Giovanni.")
There were also acetates made from shortwave broadcasts (over NBC in the
USA?) of "Falstaff" (Act I only), "Meistersinger" (complete Act I and bits
of the rest of the opera), and "Fidelio" (Act I through "Abscheulicher!").
There have been various obscure LP and occasionally CD issues of these over
the years.
> I think I missed the Koch-Schwann CD of Strauss conducting "Salome"
> excerpts. If so, a pity. Thanks.
--
ivanmaxim
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>
> - Show quoted text -
Te entire Koch Vienna series was uploaded to Opera Share a long time
ago - don't know if the links still work. I copied all the files to
CDS. Wagner fan
Dontait...@aol.com
> Yes, Don, despite sonic flaws the two complete Verdi operas with Bruno
> Walter are quite treasonable. The great dramatic intensity carries straight
> through to the end, but then there is the great lyricism throughout. Same in
> the Requiem. Not all the singing in the Forza was always up to most
> memorable standards but it doesn't matter.
>
> I had come to these quite late in my collecting of Walter, and they were
> quite a revelation. In my youth, I probably never would have thought to
> sample them if I even knew they existed. But after reading Bruno Walter's
> autobiography and another biography I now know more about his youthful years
> of working one-on-one with singers. And then in his "Music and Music
> Making", I always remember Walter's philosophy of the importance of the
> search for the "lyric" in music. Now I've discovered his Verdi opera
> conducting and it is truly great opera conducting. As is the Beethoven
> Fidelio, the Mozart at Salzburg and the MET. Ah, for a time machine, a
> portable recorder and go back and record his Tristan!
Yes. I think it's important to remember (I know you do) that until
1938, for all of his concert work, Walter was above all a conductor of
opera and had been since 1894. His mastery was evidently complete;
around 1930 a "Gramophone" columnist who regularly covered opera
singing -- perhaps Herman Klein, who was a veteran singer and vocal
teacher himself -- wrote after a tour of European opera centers that
he believed that Walter and Toscanini were the two greatest living
conductors at the opera desk. I'd have to look that up, but "The
Gramophone" is on-line now and could be checked. Anyway, even singers
as great as Lotte Lehmann said that Bruno Walter helped and taught
them about singing and interpretation.
Yes, a Walter Tristan! And we might have had one from the Met in
1943 because Walter was scheduled to conduct a run of performances,
but got sick and had to bow out. Beecham took his place. Not bad of
course, but.... And of course a Walter Rosenkavalier, Ring,
Fledermaus, Donizetti Don Pasquale (for which Walter was famous),
Smetana Dalibor, Gluck Orfeo (which Walter did at the Met around 1942
but it was not broadcast and no in-house recording of it has surfaced)
-- the list could go on and on.
Beethoven Fidelio with Walter: February 22, 1941 from the Met,
especially. Simply incredible, despite Rene Maison's mush-mouthed
performance as Florestan. Leonore Overture No. 3 in the second act is
so intense that I've thought that it's like Beethoven and Bruno Walter
versus Adolf Hitler -- and Hitler loses. The whole performance is
simply utterly masterful, and the end overwhelming. The audience
simply screams on and on and on. As you know. Then the Met Don
Giovanni, too. The last fifteen minutes or so of Act I build with
inexorable, cumulative power. But no premature climax: Walter makes it
all work for the"payoff" at the end.
> I had a number of those Koch-Schwann sets when they were quite cheap at
> Berkshire Record Outlet. They were quite interesting the first listen. The
> sound didn't bother me so much, but the 3-5 minute excerpts with missing
> pieces in between was frustrating. I lost them all in a house fire and
> didn't bother to replace them.
Horrible news about the fire. My sincere sympathy.
Sorry for the long reply.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:b31936a4-d109-472c-acfe-c67fae90acb1
@h25g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
> Yes, a Walter Tristan! And we might have had one from the Met in 1943
> because Walter was scheduled to conduct a run of performances, but got
> sick and had to bow out. Beecham took his place. Not bad of course, but
> .... And of course a Walter Rosenkavalier, Ring, Fledermaus, Donizetti
> Don Pasquale (for which Walter was famous), Smetana Dalibor, Gluck Orfeo
> (which Walter did at the Met around 1942 but it was not broadcast and no
> in-house recording of it has surfaced) -- the list could go on and on.
And of course when Bing took over, the conducting staff became quite, how
shall I say it, Beepgladeepish, barring the occasional appearance by Reiner
or Mitropoulos. Of course, they had great singers in those days.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Peter Greenstein
peter
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b31936a4-d109-472c...@h25g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
Dontait...@aol.com
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:b31936a4-d109-472c-acfe-c67fae90acb1
> @h25g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Yes, a Walter Tristan! And we might have had one from the Met in 1943
> > because Walter was scheduled to conduct a run of performances, but got
> > sick and had to bow out. Beecham took his place. Not bad of course, but
> > .... And of course a Walter Rosenkavalier, Ring, Fledermaus, Donizetti
> > Don Pasquale (for which Walter was famous), Smetana Dalibor, Gluck Orfeo
> > (which Walter did at the Met around 1942 but it was not broadcast and no
> > in-house recording of it has surfaced) -- the list could go on and on.
>
> And of course when Bing took over, the conducting staff became quite, how
> shall I say it, Beepgladeepish, barring the occasional appearance by Reiner
> or Mitropoulos. Of course, they had great singers in those days.
Yes; Reiner was there as essentially the chief conductor until 1953,
and Mitropoulos did a lot after that during the 1950s; but otherwise
there was indeed a dearth of top-flight conductors at the Met with
Bing during the 1950s. Fritz Stiedry had been pretty good in former
years, but by the '50s he was getting old. Pierre Monteux was there
around 1954/5, but he wanted to conduct Italian and German opera --
Wagner, especially -- and Bing only wanted him to do French works
because, after all, Monteux was born in Paris. So Monteux bade the Met
good-bye, and they lost him.
Bruno Walter's case is especially sad because, as Eric Ryding and
his wife documented in their biography of him, he complained to Edward
Johnson (Bing's predecessor) more than once during the 1940s that he
wanted to conduct opera more at the Met but wasn't being offered
opportunities. After he got sick and had to back out of Tristan they
never seem to have asked him to conduct it again. After about 1943
there were only a few Walter Met performances; then after about 1946
only a Fidelio (with Flagstad) in 1951 and The Magic Flute in 1956/7.
An almost criminal neglect by the Met of a great, almost uniquely
gifted conductor of opera, right in their midst.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:0560d59e-cdbb-42eb-a16f-17387c2c55d6
@i24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
Well, Bing never really did know how to handle conductors, other than to
irk them if they had strong musical personalities. Maybe he just assumed
that all of them were going to be as difficult to work with as Szell?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Dontait...@aol.com
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> @i24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
[earlier quotes edited]
> Well, Bing never really did know how to handle conductors, other than to
> irk them if they had strong musical personalities. Maybe he just assumed
> that all of them were going to be as difficult to work with as Szell?
Yes, or perhaps his authoritarian personality made him always want
to be the autocratic boss and wouldn't permit him to tolerate a
conductor with a strong musical personality? Szell is an excellent
example. As we know, he wouldn't tolerate compromises when he thought
they were avoidable and after trying to work at Bing's Met during the
'50s got so fed up that he just washed his hands of the place. Reiner,
tough as flint, probably drove Bing nuts; but I believe that Reiner
had a contract negotiated pre-Bing, and the latter couldn't do
anything about it and just had to endure. Mitropoulos: but he was such
a gentle person, yes? No Reiner or Szell he; maybe he just cooperated
with Bing? He did *love* conducting opera and the Met gave him the
perfect opportunity, especially after the NYPSO situation became
increasingly rocky for him after 1955/6.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:05b23b3d-f760-4db6-8d9b-eb7b0ca32319
@f6g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
Wasn't it Szell of whom somebody said, "That man is his own worst enemy,"
to which Bing replied, "Not while I'm alive!"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Dontait...@aol.com
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> @f6g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
> Wasn't it Szell of whom somebody said, "That man is his own worst enemy,"
> to which Bing replied, "Not while I'm alive!"
Yes indeed, according to what I've heard and read. A brilliant
riposte, yes?
Don Tait
richard...@gmail.com
I have heard that attributed to Churchill about a rival politician. A
variant was Churchill's jibe at the post-WW2 Labour Prime minister
Attlee: Some interviewer asked Churchill for his opinion on Attlee and
contrasted Attlee's personal modesty with Churchill's abundant
'personality.' Churchill's response, apparently off the cuff, was
that 'Mr Attlee is a very modest man, with much to be modest about.'
If one could think of modest conductors it might fit them well too.
Richard
O
<7ec29b90-ed8a-48e1...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
<"richard...@gmail.com"> wrote:
I've also heard W.C. Fields do this joke in a radio comedy routine with
Edgar Bergen (and his ventriloquist dummy, Charlie MacCarthy):
<after a few insults exchanged>
Fields: I'll slice you into a venetian blind!
MacCarthy: Ooh, that makes me shudder!
Bergen: Why, you've got to forgive Charlie, he's his own worst enemy
Fields: Not while I'm around, he's not.
I don't know the vintage of the recording, but Fields died in 1946, so
Churchill and Bing may have stolen the joke from Fields.
-Owen
ivanmaxim
> In article
> <7ec29b90-ed8a-48e1-b52a-152cc3c24...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
The amazing thing about Bergen/McCarthy was that a ventriloquist is a
visual experience and they were tremendously popular on radio!!!!!!!!
I have a ton of old time radio bcasts and they really are funny -
often brilliant!! Wagner fan
Kip Williams
> The amazing thing about Bergen/McCarthy was that a ventriloquist is a
> visual experience and they were tremendously popular on radio!!!!!!!!
> I have a ton of old time radio bcasts and they really are funny -
> often brilliant!!
It was the material.
Incidentally, Paul Winchell told a story about the early days of
television when he was doing a tech rehearsal with his dummy (Jerry
Mahoney, I'll guess) and the director came up to him, somewhat worried.
"Paul," he said, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, "We have a problem.
The dummy isn't coming through."
"What?" Winchell was stunned. It was the first time a ventriloquist had
been on television. Did it not work for some reason? They couldn't think
of a reason for the problem. The rehearsal resumed.
Winchell looked up a minute later and happened to notice that every time
the dummy had a line, the boom mike was swinging over to it.
Kip W
ivanmaxim
The Fred Allen show was hysterical (and topical) and his feud with
Cahrlie McCarthy had some of the funniest lines I have ever heard. (it
wasn't till I heard Senator Claghorn in Allen's Alley that I realized
where Foghorn Leghorn came from) Unfortunately Allen couldn't quite
his niche in television before his relatively early death. Wagner Fan
Kip Williams
> The Fred Allen show was hysterical (and topical) and his feud with
> Cahrlie McCarthy had some of the funniest lines I have ever heard. (it
> wasn't till I heard Senator Claghorn in Allen's Alley that I realized
> where Foghorn Leghorn came from)
My grandfather, who was much farther out on the right wing than anybody
here, once angrily asserted that Kenny Delmar's characterization as
Claghorn was a disgraceful caricature of a real senator (who I presume
would have been an extremist after Grand-dad's heart). I never have been
able to figure out who he meant.
Kip W
ivanmaxim
I don't know either but if it wound up giving us Foghorn Leghorn all
is forgiven- "I'm no chicken, son, THAT's a chicken. Good kid but
doesn't listen to a word I say!!!!!! Wagner fan
Kimba W Lion
>My grandfather, who was much farther out on the right wing than anybody
>here, once angrily asserted that Kenny Delmar's characterization as
>Claghorn was a disgraceful caricature of a real senator (who I presume
>would have been an extremist after Grand-dad's heart). I never have been
>able to figure out who he meant.
Apparently, no real senator at all:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/claghorn
Peter Greenstein
"ivanmaxim" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f492b1e9-44a2-4ccd-8dfd-
>The amazing thing about Bergen/McCarthy was that a ventriloquist is a
>visual experience and they were tremendously popular on radio!!!!!!!!
>I have a ton of old time radio bcasts and they really are funny -
>often brilliant!! Wagner fan
Edger Bergen was really quite funny. My father was a guest interview on one
of the broadcasts. Maybe you've got that one? My copy just says, October,
1954. I would ask, "wasn't it great to be on the show with Charlie
McCarthy?!", but Dad said it was somewhat humilating to find himself talking
to a stick of wood like it was a real person. Boy, what a spoil sport! BTW,
as a little kid, I thought some of the jokes were hilarious but others just
went over my head.
--
Peter Greenstein
http://www.wakefieldjazz.com/
MiNe 109
Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Lord knows who it could have been, but I found a history of the
character here:
http://www.cartoonresearch.com/foghorn.html
Southern caricature but not based on a public figure.
Stephen
Kip Williams
Indeed. As I say, I'd like to know who Grand-dad had in mind, but he's
been dead 25 years.
Kip W
Dontait...@aol.com
Wasn't it Churchill who described Clement Attlee as "a sheep in
sheep's clothing"? And "the man who got out of an empty taxicab"?
That's Churchill.
Bless Winston Churchill. I've read that Churchill's eloquent radio
addresses during World War II, when he called down ridicule and hatred
and contempt and furious opposition upon Hitler, drove Hitler wild
with fury. (He listened to them, or had them translated for him.)
Good. Churchill might have wanted and loved that. And Churchill
stalked happily through the ruins of Hitler's bunker in 1945, cigar in
mouth. The beast was dead, and Churchill had helped to kill him.
Churchill was flawed, like all great leaders. But in 1940/41 he and
Britain stood alone against the beasts and helped to safeguard
civilation. Including our life in the USA. This American will always
be grateful to Winston Churchill.
Sorry for the tirade.
Don Tait
Sol L. Siegel
news:a6753d6e-b8c7-4422...@t26g2000yqt.googlegroups.com:
> Wasn't it Churchill who described Clement Attlee as "a sheep in
> sheep's clothing"? And "the man who got out of an empty taxicab"?
> That's Churchill.
The wonderful Attlee jibe is well-known. But I thought it was the
silent-era actor and director Marshall Neilan who was usually credited
with "An empty taxicab pulled up and Louis B. Mayer got out." His
career, to no one's surprise, went downhill from there.
Six degrees: my long-time boss was (perhaps still is) acquainted with
James C. Humes, the Churchill-obsessed American speechwriter and author
who has done (perhaps still does) a one-man Churchill show, though it
was Robert Hardy who taped the 1986 time-capsule version for PBS. So
I've heard most of the Churchill quotes at one time or another.
Back then we had Churchill. Today we have Rupert Murdoch and the people
he pays to keep us fair and balanced. Dear God help us.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Edward Cowan
Britons' talk about those matters. I have seen a picture of a British
laundry (do they use that word?)during WWII, with images of the Nazi
regime in the window, and the legend: "They may not wash, but they will
die." Very good! --E.A.C.
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
> Bless Winston Churchill. I've read that Churchill's eloquent radio
> addresses during World War II, when he called down ridicule and hatred
> and contempt and furious opposition upon Hitler, drove Hitler wild
> with fury.
--
hrabanus