Mahler 6 recommendations
Dave Pickering
concerning the Bernstein/NYPO Mahler 3rd on Sony. I realize this is a fine
recording which I will probably own some day, however I decided to purchase
the highly recommended Horenstein recording on Unicorn (bought it on Friday
night and listened to it for the first time yesterday. In a word..Wow!).
I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
slightly different interpretation as a conference. I looked at the
recommendations on Tony Duggan's and Deryck Barker's websites. The only
recordings they seem to agree on are Bernstein and Tennstedt--neither Mr.
Duggan nor Mr. Barker seems to like either of these recordings very much.
The only other recording I've heard of this work was HvK's which I didn't
care for--I found the interpretation cold.
Thanks,
--
Dave Pickering
dav...@earthlink.net
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you."
Jeremy Dimmick
an old Cambridge friend, Simon Phillippo, who I think may just be famous one
of these days. It was an exceptionally taut, energised, rather classical
performance that reminded me a lot of my CD of Szell and Cleveland (1967) on
Sony. The lack of an exposition repeat in the first movement there is a
real problem, but otherwise, it's a very special performance, and dirt cheap
on Essential Classics.
"Dave Pickering" <dav...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:JM4L5.7598$G4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Tony Movshon
> I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
> currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> slightly different interpretation as a conference.
It's just as well that you want a different interpretation, because
there's nothing quite like Barbirolli.
For a combination of playing, sound, and interpretation, my first
choice is Chailly on Decca. Not quite as gut-wrenching as some in the
first 3 movements, but a tremendous finale, a superb orchestra, and
the best recorded sound this piece has received.
Despite the Deryk/TonyD condemnation, you should consider Bernstein
seriously; his first recording is now midpriced on one disk on Sony,
and it's a knockout. My only reservations concern the sound (only so
so) and the unrelieved intensity LB brings to almost every second of
the piece. It's exhausting. Bernstein's 2nd recording (DG), is cut
from similar interpretive cloth and is somewhat better recorded, but
it's I think still on 2 full-priced disks.
Not even Bernstein brought more intensity to this piece than Solti,
and his is also an excellent choice. It is on one disk in Europe;
I don't know of its US availability. Better recorded than either
Bernstein, and probably better played.
Kubelik is crisp and quick and perhaps a bit light, but very well
balanced and poised; I don't think it's available outside the
complete set.
Of the other common choices, Karajan is smooth and massive and a bit
glossy and detached; also not very well recorded. Szell is crisp and
light and clean, but just too underpowered for my taste. Haitink is
rather tame, and I don't know about its availability (I'm talking
about the CGO performance, there may be a rerecording with the BPO
that I have not heard). I like both Bertini and Inoue, but they're
hard to find. I don't have a strong memory of Segerstam's, which is
probably not a good sign. Neumann (either) is weakly played and
uninvolving. None of the few historical recordings are recommendable
even for a second recording; this piece needs a virtuoso orchestra
and modern sound. Adler, Rosbaud, and Mitropoulos variously lack
one or both of these key features.
Doubtless there are others I've forgotten.
--
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Owen Joseph Hartnett
Dave Pickering <dav...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I haven't heard too many recordings of this work, but I have heard both
of Bernstein's. I may be in the minority group here, but I prefer the
Vienna one over the New York, mostly because of the tempi and the sound
(even though the second movement can get a little slow at times.) It's
my favorite so far and I do not feel the need to purchase another (but
I'd like to hear the Sanderling someday, if it's ever released.)
-owen
Tony Movshon
> Doubtless there are others I've forgotten.
Such as Thomas Sanderling's, which is quite good (much admired by
Tony D, I know). Sigh.
--
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Simon Roberts
: I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
: currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
: slightly different interpretation as a conference. I looked at the
: recommendations on Tony Duggan's and Deryck Barker's websites. The only
: recordings they seem to agree on are Bernstein and Tennstedt--neither Mr.
: Duggan nor Mr. Barker seems to like either of these recordings very much.
: The only other recording I've heard of this work was HvK's which I didn't
: care for--I found the interpretation cold.
Either or both of Bernstein's and Solti's would probably head my list,
along with Barbirolli's, which you already have (they're nothing like his,
especially as far as the tempo in i is concerned). I seem to like
Karajan's more than you do, though. The only historical one I would
bother with is Scherchen's frantic, if cut, performance - there's nothing
quite like his first movement....
Simon
JRsnfld
Barbirolli's EMI performance can be quite slow. The live one with BPO on
Arkadia isn't such a drag, but it's sloppily played and some of the tempo
changes seem strange to me.
> Bernstein's 2nd recording (DG), is cut
from similar interpretive cloth and is somewhat better recorded, but
it's I think still on 2 full-priced disks.<
I like the second Bernstein. I seem to remember the first being too quick in
the first movement, whereas the DG is more reasonable (but still very fast).
For a combination of sound, playing, and a provocative interpretation that's
far than Barbirolli, I might go with Bernstein DG.
>Not even Bernstein brought more intensity to this piece than Solti...Better
recorded than either Bernstein, and probably better played.<
Amen--maybe too thrilling.
>Kubelik is crisp and quick and perhaps a bit light, but very well
balanced and poised;<
Agreed.
>Of the other common choices, Karajan is smooth and massive and a bit
glossy and detached; also not very well recorded.<
Yes. Impressive but not quite right.
>Szell is crisp and light and clean, but just too underpowered for my taste.
Haitink is rather tame,<
Agreed on both.
>None of the few historical recordings are recommendable
even for a second recording; this piece needs a virtuoso orchestra
and modern sound. Adler, Rosbaud, and Mitropoulos variously lack
one or both of these key features.<
I wish I knew the Adler, but I can't disagree more about the Rosbaud and the
Mitropoulos. The Rosbaud is not a virtuoso experience a la Solti (again, nobody
else is), but the orchestra conveys a sense of understanding about so many
points of phrasing and accent and...well, Rosbaud is fastidious yet emotional,
reverent yet commanding, and it shows in the playing. Most notably--the tempi
are very well judged; this is a performance to return to often. If you see this
recording (on Datum), even in its dim but decent sound, it's a must buy.
Mitropoulos, on the other hand, is emotionally white hot. And if the orchestra
can't stay with him every moment, it does a remarkable job nonetheless. The
sound is a barrier, but it is easy to hear how well Mitropoulos identifies with
this music in his seemingly impulsive way. Both Rosbaud and Mitropoulos are
preferable to Horenstein, whose orchestra flounders by comparison, and
Scherchen, who is interesting but makes unfortunate cuts.
Do consider Abbado/Chicago--very well played, decent sound, sensible but
intense. The Adagio is lovingly played; the outer movements are terrific with
power and spaciousness. This conductor has rarely sounded so good to me.
Sanderling hardly puts a foot wrong, and has digital sound and the dark and
warm sounds of the Leningrad Phil to offer. These two are among the best
choices.
--Jeff
Dan Koren
"Dave Pickering" <dav...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> slightly different interpretation as a conference. I looked at the
> recommendations on Tony Duggan's and Deryck Barker's websites. The
only
> recordings they seem to agree on are Bernstein and Tennstedt--neither
Mr.
> Duggan nor Mr. Barker seems to like either of these recordings very
much.
> The only other recording I've heard of this work was HvK's which I
didn't
> care for--I found the interpretation cold.
>
> Thanks,
>
My favorite Mahler 6th is Szell/Cleveland.
dk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul Kintzele
Dave Pickering wrote:
>
> I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
> currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> slightly different interpretation as a conference.
I picked up the Thomas Sanderling/St. Petersburg version much praised by
Mr. Duggan the other day, and my reaction was also quite positive. It's
on two discs, but is priced as one mid-priced disc; I got mine for about
$11. At that price it's a steal. My favorite 6's, in order of
preference, are Bernstein/Vienna (DG), Sanderling/St. Petersburg (RS),
Abbado/Chicago (DG, but not currently in print, I think), and
Boulez/Vienna (DG). Haven't heard Levi/Atlanta (Telarc), but am curious
about it.
My advice is to check out Sanderling's.
Paul
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: My favorite Mahler 6th is Szell/Cleveland.
Which is as good a recommendation as any to avoid it. Frankly, fan of
Szell that I normally am, I found the Szell/Cleveland performance somewhat
disappointing, especially in the outer movements. I just felt that his
performance didn't hang together. I will confess that I've never heard
the Barbirolli -- his 5th is *so* *bad* that I didn't even bother.
My recommendations (in no particular order) would be the first Bernstein,
the von Karajan, and (a surprising performance from a conductor I
normally can't stand) Maazel. While in each case, I have quibbles with
some details of each of these performances, I think that overall, all
three of them give satisfactory accounts of the work. Of course, there
is a reasonable question of whether it is possible even in principle to
give a "satisfactory" account given the complexity of the textual problems.
E.g., people generally restore the third hammer blow, but ignore Mahler's
having completely reorchestrated the passage even besides deleting the
hammer blow. It's amusing to compare the Mahler Society and Eulenberg
editions -- especially what the Eulenberg editor has to say about the
preferred version.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Tony Movshon
> I wrote:
> >None of the few historical recordings are recommendable
> even for a second recording; this piece needs a virtuoso orchestra
> and modern sound. Adler, Rosbaud, and Mitropoulos variously lack
> one or both of these key features.<
>
> I wish I knew the Adler, but I can't disagree more about the Rosbaud and the
> Mitropoulos.
I didn't mean to imply that they aren't interesting or worth
hearing. I just don't think they're the place to go first for a
complement to Barbirolli.
> Do consider Abbado/Chicago
Yes, another good one I had forgotten. Someone else mentioned
Boulez, which I also forgot. I was initially impressed by this
but on a recent rehearing found it rather detached (I know, a
Boulez cliche', sorry).
--
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Raymond Hall
news:8tivpp$egf$2...@news.huji.ac.il...
> In article <8tiupn$ns6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Dan Koren <DanK...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> : My favorite Mahler 6th is Szell/Cleveland.
>
> Which is as good a recommendation as any to avoid it. Frankly, fan of
> Szell that I normally am, I found the Szell/Cleveland performance somewhat
> disappointing, especially in the outer movements. I just felt that his
> performance didn't hang together. I will confess that I've never heard
> the Barbirolli -- his 5th is *so* *bad* that I didn't even bother.
>
beautifully. There are touches of greatness in Szell's Andante. Just my
opinion.
And Barbirolli's 5th is like his Sibelius 5th - it gathers momentum. A
classic reading.
> My recommendations (in no particular order) would be the first Bernstein,
> the von Karajan, and (a surprising performance from a conductor I
> normally can't stand) Maazel. While in each case, I have quibbles with
> some details of each of these performances, I think that overall, all
> three of them give satisfactory accounts of the work. Of course, there
> is a reasonable question of whether it is possible even in principle to
> give a "satisfactory" account given the complexity of the textual
problems.
> E.g., people generally restore the third hammer blow, but ignore Mahler's
> having completely reorchestrated the passage even besides deleting the
> hammer blow. It's amusing to compare the Mahler Society and Eulenberg
> editions -- especially what the Eulenberg editor has to say about the
> preferred version.
>
Agreed about Bernstein I, Karajan, and a more spacious reading is Wit.
Kubelik is a bit lightweight for me, but it coheres as a work, as he also
manages to cohere the 2nd symphony structurally. At least to my ears.
Frankly I don't give much importance to versions and the number of hammer
blows in the 6th. It is the whole performance that counts.
But for me, the greatest test of the 6th, (and surely Mahler's greatest slow
movement), is how this Andante is performed. Szell is simply magnificent
here imho.
Regards,
# Classical Music WebSite Links (mostly RMCR) :
http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/tassiedevil2.htm
# Main Page, To Conductors, Jazz Songstresses :
http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney
Neil
>Doubtless there are others I've forgotten.
>--
Horenstein ...
Tony Movshon
Not really competitive with the best. The orchestra just isn't up
to it. Does anyone know which Mahler 6 the BBC is going to issue?
--
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Eric Nagamine
>
> I want to thank all those who responded to my thread a week or so ago
> concerning the Bernstein/NYPO Mahler 3rd on Sony. I realize this is a fine
> recording which I will probably own some day, however I decided to purchase
> the highly recommended Horenstein recording on Unicorn (bought it on Friday
> night and listened to it for the first time yesterday. In a word..Wow!).
>
> I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
> currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> slightly different interpretation as a conference. I looked at the
> recommendations on Tony Duggan's and Deryck Barker's websites. The only
> recordings they seem to agree on are Bernstein and Tennstedt--neither Mr.
> Duggan nor Mr. Barker seems to like either of these recordings very much.
> The only other recording I've heard of this work was HvK's which I didn't
> care for--I found the interpretation cold.
The 6th is the one symphony where I can't pick out any one recording as
above the rest. I find the Bernsteins and the Solti somewhat chilly,
though the Solti has the edge in intensity. The Maazel/VPO wasn't bad,
though I don't think it's in print. I found the Tennstedt to be marred
by a brass playing that isn't up to the rest of the orchestra.
My favorite 6th is in mono and unfortunately isn't available singly. The
repeatless Mitropolous/NYPO recording that's in the NYPO Mahler
Broadcast box would get my recommendation as an outstanding 6th.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
Simon Roberts
: : My favorite Mahler 6th is Szell/Cleveland.
: Which is as good a recommendation as any to avoid it. Frankly, fan of
: Szell that I normally am, I found the Szell/Cleveland performance somewhat
: disappointing, especially in the outer movements. I just felt that his
: performance didn't hang together.
I would go further; not merely "somewhat disappointing" but
undercharacterized to a fault, possibly even worse than Boulez's.
I will confess that I've never heard
: the Barbirolli -- his 5th is *so* *bad* that I didn't even bother.
It's far superior to his 5th - tempi are as slow or slower, but unlike the
5th the rhythms are strong, the attachs incisive, the whole thing highly
dramatic in its perverse way. But you may find the first movement
absurdly slow.
Simon
Michael Lee
> I haven't heard too many recordings of this work, but I have heard both
> of Bernstein's. I may be in the minority group here, but I prefer the
> Vienna one over the New York, mostly because of the tempi and the sound
> (even though the second movement can get a little slow at times.) It's
> my favorite so far and I do not feel the need to purchase another (but
> I'd like to hear the Sanderling someday, if it's ever released.)
Me too! I like Lenny's second recording with the VPO on DG more than the
earlier one. If you like heart-on-sleeve Mahler as much as I do, you will
probably like Tennstedt's, too.
Michael Lee
_____________________________________________
Yahoo! Gustav Mahler Club
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/gustavmahlerclub
vaneyes
I like the Barbirolli also.
The Lenny SONY Century is my suggestion for your second recording, and
my favorite. I feel it displays a little more rawness, which is right
for this work and most Mahler.
The Szell SONY Essential is a fine live performance with no interference
from the audience until the conclusion. That's when the engineers
couldn't resist leaving the applause in. I'd like to see this recording
remastered and the applause left out. But don't wait for this
nit-picking wish, this is a bargain you should have now.
Regards
paulgo...@my-deja.com
"Dave Pickering" <dav...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> concerning the Bernstein/NYPO Mahler 3rd on Sony. I realize this is
a fine
> recording which I will probably own some day, however I decided to
purchase
> the highly recommended Horenstein recording on Unicorn (bought it on
Friday
> night and listened to it for the first time yesterday. In a
word..Wow!).
>
> I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
> currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> slightly different interpretation as a conference. I looked at the
> recommendations on Tony Duggan's and Deryck Barker's websites. The
only
> recordings they seem to agree on are Bernstein and Tennstedt--neither
Mr.
> Duggan nor Mr. Barker seems to like either of these recordings very
much.
> The only other recording I've heard of this work was HvK's which I
didn't
> care for--I found the interpretation cold.
Bernstein/VPO on DGG is the end-all for me. Honorable mention to
Inoue/RPO (probably hard to find).
--
Paul Goldstein
Owen Joseph Hartnett
<le...@netvigator.com> wrote:
oh yes, forgot to mention Tennstedt, another very good 6. It's been
awhile since I've heard it though. I recall the adagio being
outstanding.
-owen
K. Howson-Jan
made the best sense of the final movement for me (and this is the toughest
movement for me to listen through), more than Bernstein/VPO which was too
episodic for my liking.
Kang
Tony Movshon
> oh yes, forgot to mention Tennstedt, another very good 6. It's been
> awhile since I've heard it though. I recall the adagio being
> outstanding.
It's not an adagio, it's an andante, thought Barbirolli thinks
otherwise.
--
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
John L. Holubiak
Flipse and the Rotterdam Philharmonic on Epic (SC-6011), a rather beat up
set of LPs that I borrowed from the Chicago Public Library. It's been a long
time since I've heard it but I remember the tempi being on the slowish side
and the performance having warmth and intensity. I believe it was a live
recording and was well played.
John
JRsnfld
recording and was well played.<
I bought the Flipse last year with high hopes. It's not bad at all, but the
playing is not the strength of the performance (not as good as the Boston
Philharmonic with Zander; maybe as good as the Netherlands Philharmonic with
Haenchen). It's a good enough recording, but a bit weak sounding compared to
some of the better, later recordings we have now. Sensible intepretation; a
memory worth cherishing, not so much one to revisit often.
--Jeff
John L. Holubiak
so familiar with and compelling in its sincerity. Maybe it's the sincerity
that makes these earlier Mahler recordings so appealing for me (even the
wretchedly played Scherchen Westminster recordings of 5 and 7 have their
moments). Did you find the Flipse on CD or LP?
John
"JRsnfld" <jrs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001102005129...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
JRsnfld
On LP.
Yes, it has sincerity.
--Jeff
Jeremy Dimmick
"Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:p98L5.11277$e5.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:8tivpp$egf$2...@news.huji.ac.il...
> > In article <8tiupn$ns6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Dan Koren <DanK...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > : My favorite Mahler 6th is Szell/Cleveland.
> >
> > Which is as good a recommendation as any to avoid it. Frankly, fan of
> > Szell that I normally am, I found the Szell/Cleveland performance
somewhat
> > disappointing, especially in the outer movements. I just felt that his
> > performance didn't hang together. I will confess that I've never heard
> > the Barbirolli -- his 5th is *so* *bad* that I didn't even bother.
> >
> I agree with Dan here. I like the Szell, and nobody imho does the Andante
as
> beautifully. There are touches of greatness in Szell's Andante. Just my
> opinion.
I'm also with Dan. But I think Szell defines one pole of Mahler
interpretation - rather classical, taut, not prone to melodrama - which many
people will be averse to. I have to say, though, that a lack of
hanging-together is the last problem I have with Szell's finale; I've always
felt that most coherently argued. This must depend strongly on one's own
reading of the symphony as musical narrative, though, which is open to a
lot of interpretations.
gggg...@gmail.com
(Recent Youtube upload):
Gustav Mahler "Symphony No 6" Hans Rosbaud
Craig Wallace
> Flipse's reading was very different from the Bernstein/N.Y.Phil that I was
> so familiar with and compelling in its sincerity. Maybe it's the sincerity
> that makes these earlier Mahler recordings so appealing for me (even the
> wretchedly played Scherchen Westminster recordings of 5 and 7 have their
> moments). Did you find the Flipse on CD or LP?
>
> John
>
> > recording and was well played.<
> >
> > I bought the Flipse last year with high hopes. It's not bad at all, but
> the
> > playing is not the strength of the performance (not as good as the Boston
> > Philharmonic with Zander; maybe as good as the Netherlands Philharmonic
> with
> > Haenchen). It's a good enough recording, but a bit weak sounding compared
> to
> > some of the better, later recordings we have now. Sensible intepretation;
> a
> > memory worth cherishing, not so much one to revisit often.
> >
> > --Jeff
gggg gggg
> > I'm now looking for a second recording of Mahler's 6th Symphony. I
> > currently own the Barbirolli on EMI and like it but I'm looking for a
> > slightly different interpretation as a conference.
> there's nothing quite like Barbirolli.
> choice is Chailly on Decca. Not quite as gut-wrenching as some in the
> first 3 movements, but a tremendous finale, a superb orchestra, and
> the best recorded sound this piece has received.
> Despite the Deryk/TonyD condemnation, you should consider Bernstein
> seriously; his first recording is now midpriced on one disk on Sony,
> and it's a knockout. My only reservations concern the sound (only so
> so) and the unrelieved intensity LB brings to almost every second of
> the piece. It's exhausting. Bernstein's 2nd recording (DG), is cut
> it's I think still on 2 full-priced disks.
> and his is also an excellent choice. It is on one disk in Europe;
> I don't know of its US availability. Better recorded than either
> complete set.
> about the CGO performance, there may be a rerecording with the BPO
> that I have not heard)...
(From Comments section of following recent Youtube upload):
- ... I have the complete Haitink (agree with you that his second recoding of no.1 is better and his no. 6 is a miss - Haitink never got no.6 right).
"Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Mahler Symphony Cycles"
Stan Punzel
James Goodzeit
Herman
> I have the Haitink/BPO and it is a disappointment - it should be a great M6 with everything going for it, but it comes across as stiff and forced in everyhting.