Is there a Bartok Concerto for Orchestra that's a 'revelation'?
Andy Evans
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Richar...@gmail.com
> complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
> 'Hungarian' way to play it?
Dorati takes this point of view and defends it brilliantly - the
Mercury perf (LSO) is admirably "Hungarian" - but I don't know if you
will find it a revelation.
Todd Schurk
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
jrs...@aol.com
Coming back to the Reiner/CSO recently after many years, I felt its
virtues all the more. The playing just seemed stupendous--free and
disciplined, expressive and single-minded. The concentration is
spellbinding to me, but I admit that once one gets used to it or plays
it too often and it starts seeming dry and inevitable.
I recommend Chailly very strongly. It is beautifullly played--no more
tender than the Reiner, necessarily, but with a great sense of color
and modern sound (not that the sound on the Reiner is anything but
great). You'll get a different experience from Chailly.
For a uniquely interesting performance, you might also try Celibidache,
though I wouldn't say he's the standard.
And for Hungarians, there's that Kocsis recording on Hungaroton that I
haven't heard but has gotten raves from several quarters. And have you
tried Fricsay, or Ivan Fischer?
--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
<performan...@gmail.com> said:
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.
If I only had to have one (what a horrible thought), I think I would
stick with Reiner.
That said, Kubelik/BSO on DGG is excellent in almost every
way...interpretively equal to the feted Reiner.
If you can track down a copy of Arpad Joo's recording on Sefel, it may
provide some new insight into the piece. I have the LP and have posted
mp3s in that NG. It was briefly available on CD, I think. All of
those Sefel discs would be a good acquisition for Brilliant Classics.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Todd Schurk
I could be wrong,but I think the stereo Reiner predates the
Stoky/Everest stereo. Reiner was taped October 22,1955. I thought the
Stoky was from 1958 or so.
Jimmy Smith
"Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Every one of them is a revelation that he put one over on us. The guy had
the talent of a chucklehead meatball and for years we have been paying for
and listening to random notes he put down on paper while he was drunk on
pot. Now it's too late to take it back since all the record companies have
the free catalog. Therefore, we all calculate the difference between the
timbre and the freqency of his castings only to discover it isn't really
true music.
Jimmy
>
Todd Schurk
Easy on the eggnog Jimmy-it's a long way to Christmas.
Allen
Andy Evans wrote:
I keep haunting the used racks looking for The Blomstedt/SFO recording.
I heard it on the radio a while back; I was driving but when I arrived
at my destination I just sat in the car waiting to find out who was
playing. It's OP, but I understand that it can be ordered as a one-up
transfer. If I don't fid it soon I'll resort to that approach. Against
all the recordings of the Cto that I have owned, that one had something
special going for it that seemed unique. I do want to say that I've
never heard a reording of it that disappointed me; it's a great piece of
music IMNSHO.
Allen
Paul Ilechko
Duuno about revelations, but Reiner and Ormandy are my favourites.
Sacqueboutier
You are correct. I checked the CD and it was recorded in 1961! I
thought I had remembered a notation on the old album cover that claimed
to be the first stereo recording.
Never mind. :-)
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
And true music would be....?
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Bob Lombard
"Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in
message
news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 'Hungarian' way to play it? What are some of the keys to
> interpreting this work?
>
The most insightful performance is not Hungarian;
Boulez/NYPO.
The 'keys' are that there are layers, and that the music is
Bartokian. The top layer is exemplified by the
Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that Boulez reveals with
admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by Fricsay and
that German orchestra (that I keep forgetting the name of).
There are several good performances of the top layer, only
those two (that I've heard) that adequately reveal the
deeper layer.
bl
Raymond Hall
news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance. As for Reiner's
account, it is well played, but like yourself, cannot quite put my finger on
it, but feel it lacks any sort of panache to these ears. Quite plain in
fact. Quite generic. In fact, I much prefer Haitink on a Philips Duo,
coupled with the piano concertos (Bishop/Davis), to either Szell or Reiner.
Maybe I should check out the Koscis as it is seems to be getting some huge
praise.
Ray H
Taree
Todd Schurk
Once you've heard the Koscis you will not need to keep any others-it
may be one of the best recordings of classical music period ever put on
disc.
Vaneyes
Andy Evans wrote:
> Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this....
ACO/Dorati, available on Int'l and Aussi Eloquence.
Regards
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
Frank Berger
"Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:11oc5el...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Is there a specifically
>> 'Hungarian' way to play it? What are some of the keys to interpreting
>> this work?
>>
> The most insightful performance is not Hungarian; Boulez/NYPO.
>
> The 'keys' are that there are layers, and that the music is Bartokian. The
> top layer is exemplified by the Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that
> Boulez reveals with admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by
> Fricsay and that German orchestra (that I keep forgetting the name of).
Berlin Radio SO.
Frank Berger
"Allen" <al...@nothere.net> wrote in message
news:6iohf.14553$Ox.1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
It shows up on ebay and amazon from time to time. That's how I got mine.
Raymond Hall
news:1132862471.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Didn't Szell make a big cut towards the end of the finale ?
Yes he did, the total muppet. The eerie 'nachtmusik' bit.
Ray H
Taree
Paul Ilechko
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Andy Evans
stupendous--free and disciplined, expressive and single-minded. The
concentration is spellbinding to me, but I admit that once one gets
used to it or plays it too often and it starts seeming dry and
inevitable. >
Yes, I think that's a good description. coming back to it I felt rather
let down in terms of its total effect, though there was a lot of
satisfying detail. Maybe it's just a bit too controlled - Stokowski
lets go that much more, bends the music, indulges in certain effects
which work in his hands. I'm just listening to Boulez/Chicago right now
- same orchestra. Similarly intelligent, carefully constructed. Maybe I
miss something demonic - you sometimes feel that Bartok is dancing with
the Devil.
Andy Evans
Bartokian. The top layer is exemplified by the
Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that Boulez reveals with
admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by Fricsay>
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not against Stoky
bringing out the brilliance of the score - I'd prefer it to shine and
be brilliant, as long as there's an earthyness underneath and not just
the triviality of a showpiece. This is probably not a proper
comparison, but I feel echoes of early Stravinsky (Petrushka, Firebird)
in the kind of frenzied energy and very sinister overtones (or maybe
undertones). After all - this was 1943, and in this case the second
World War. This is the upsetting visual world of Chagall - values and
civilisation thrown up in the air. A time of cruelty, lives trampled,
insanity. I find it hard to listen to Bartok at the best of times - I
find most of his work very disturbing. But I can't think of anything
worse than underplaying it or trivialising it.
Andy Evans
I'm not getting much out of Chicago/Boulez. I don't think he's quite
hit the spot here, in fact in the folksy Hungarian bits he's miles out.
Listening to it as I speak - I certainly preferred Reiner so far (and
Stoky).
Andy Evans
panache to these ears. Quite plain in fact. Quite generic.>>
Ray - you may be interested in this snippet found on the Net
"One of the first things that Solti did was to champion the music of
Bartok with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra whereas it was Reiner who
did the championing of Bartok with this orchestra. Solti wanted and,
indeed, received the praise and glory for Reiner's achievement and
Reiner was a far better conductor. His version of Bartok's Concerto for
Orchestra is still the best and his recording with the Pittsburg
Symphony Orchestra of Shostakovich's Symphony no. 6 is very fine.
Reiner stuck to the score. Solti often deviated from a score. He always
knew best. And so it is with Rattle as it was with Karajan. Almost
every piece that they conducted was edited, altered, "improved" by
them"
As a corollory - Reiner also recorded the concerto with the Pittsburg.
I'm listening to it right now, and it sounds damn good. Andy
Michael Schaffer
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
Andy Evans
the
deeper layer. >
I just listened to the Pittsburg/Reiner, and this is a performance of
considerable stature. I was surprised at how different it is from most
modern performances. It was recorded shortly after Bartok died - early
in 1946 - and was the first recorded performance. Given that Reiner had
known Bartok since 1905 and had just lost a friend and a great
compatriot, I think the prevailing mood of sadness and affection in the
performance isn;t fanciful thinking on my part. In fact, the trumpets
in the Elegia sound as if they're playing the Last Post - the notes
even take a while to die away as if Reiner is acheiving this effect
deliberately. The Intermezzo is very slow and tender for an Allegretto
- quite mournful in fact. There is almost no show, as if that didn't
befit the mood of the event. I was really moved by it. Huge echoes of
Kodaly in places - Harry Janos had been written 20 years previously. In
a way it's surprising that the Concerto was written so late in the
century - it's roots seem to come out of the twenties rather than the
forties. Nostalgia perhaps, a composer with no future looking back into
the past. .
Bob Lombard
"Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132876408....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.
bl
Michael Schaffer
I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand what the layers
are in your model. Please explain.
Michael Schaffer
Andy Evans wrote:
> There are several good performances of the top layer, only
> those two (Boulez, Friscay) (that I've heard) that adequately reveal
> the
> deeper layer. >
>
> I just listened to the Pittsburg/Reiner, and this is a performance of
> considerable stature. I was surprised at how different it is from most
> modern performances. It was recorded shortly after Bartok died - early
> in 1946 - and was the first recorded performance. Given that Reiner had
> known Bartok since 1905 and had just lost a friend and a great
> compatriot, I think the prevailing mood of sadness and affection in the
> performance isn;t fanciful thinking on my part.
Could be though. I think this performance is just stunningly bland. All
the notes are in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is
it. There is nothing else there. The interesting rhythms have no life.
It sounds like the orchestra found even only slightly unusual stuff
rhythms difficult and just somehow made their way through it. Or was
terrorized by Reiner through it. It sounds like a school orchestra just
struggling to get the notes in their places. No room for nuances and
inflections here. Listen to the oboe solo at the beginning of the
Intermezzo for instance. There is no inflection, no life at all there.
lalalaalalalalalalalalaalalalalala. Then the horn. What is he trying to
do musically? Is he trying to anything musical? Or is he just not sure
how to play his solo?
Or check out the horns at the beginning of the finale. ta -
taatatatatatatatatatata (trumpet) taaaaaaaaa (awkward, badly timed
pause) clack.
I agree there is a sense of sadness and seriousness about the reading.
But I don't think it is a musical achievement. It is just the absence
of any life in the notes. "Giuoco delle copie" - there is no giuoco
here. It is just "stuttering through the piece copie".
Sad indeed.
Bob Lombard
playing isn't free-spirited enough to make the surface layer
work either. That great orchestra almost pulls it off
anyway. If you can locate the Boulez/NYPO recording, you may
hear both similarities and the undercurrent that sweeps the
listener away to another dimension, Bartók's 'other place'
referred to so openly by Fricsay (a performance you ought to
hear too).
bl
Sacqueboutier
<performan...@gmail.com> said:
Like Pictures at an Exhibition, Chicago has had an excellent history
with this piece. Recordings with Reiner, Ozawa, Solti, and Boulez are
all excellent in there different ways.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
> "Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
>> up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
>> listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
>> chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
>> the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
>> there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
>> complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
>> 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
>> Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
>> Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
>> It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
>
>
> I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance.
>
A fine performance of what? It's not Bartok.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
> Didn't Szell make a big cut towards the end of the finale ?
Not only cuts, but also added repeats of material that completely
changes the architecture of the final movement. If he didn't like the
piece, he shouldn't have recorded it.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Bob Lombard
a concerto for orchestra, a la Bernstein/NYPO and
Fischer/BFO. The mood is upbeat, the whole thing is sort of
a celebration of orchestral colors. I think this is what
Andy expects to hear. The deeper layer (according to Fricsay
and me at least) is the composer's presentation of a trip to
another dimension, one our physical senses can't get much of
a handle on. There are 'presences', and things are
happening, but not much of those things are happening in the
three dimensions our senses are designed to interpret. If
you've taken a couple tokes too many, and don't trust
Bartók's implicit assurance that you'll get home OK, the
goings-on can be pretty disturbing. The last two movements
(the downslope of the arch) represent the journey back to
our familiar space.
Many folks don't get hooked by that layer in the Boulez/NYPO
recording. If you are one of those, try the Fricsay/BRSO
version. I think he's too obvious about it, but at least
you'll know how to catch the hook when you listen to
Boulez/NYPO again.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
bl
Raymond Hall
news:2005112420592775249%nospam@nocomspamcastnet...
Yes it is.
Bartok is the very name that is printed in LARGER letters than Prokofiev's
name, on the front cover of the Masterworks Heritage CD. And, fwiw, the
final movement, as recorded, has no bearing whatsoever on the recorded first
four movements of the CfO by Szell and the Cleveland mob. In these, Szell is
excellent. The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't
affect, imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these,
Szell is very very good.
In fact, I have four CfOs, because I have just unearthed the Dorati/RCO
account on an Eloquence, coupled to Ivan Fischer's MSPC, which I will give
another listen to tonight. I remember Dorati as being very good. Haitink is
also fine to these ears, as is the cut Szell, whereas of the four accounts,
it is Reiner that I find rather plain. Fine note spinning imo. Almost
perfunctory as a reading, and that is not to take anything away from the
CSO, but Reiner doesn't plumb any of the layers, or depth, in this music.
As for Solti, I am pleased to report that I don't have ONE of his recorded
efforts in my collection, and I won't be adding any either.
Just because Szell made a cut (the muppet) in the Bartok doesn't invalidate
it either, (as cuts, changes, and all sorts of things are done in the name
of music making), and it doesn't mean I won't listen to Szell in this work.
In fact, to be absolutely honest about it, the Bartok is the only reason to
keep the CD, because the accompanying Prok 5th stinks to high heaven. Powder
puff Prok for dummies. Sad if anyone imprinted on this Prok 5th, or have
never listened to a live P5. But then, each to their own, I spose. Previn
leaves Szell for dead in this work.
In short, even a cut Bartok CfO, is well worth the listen, especially as
done by Szell. But for now I owe Dorati's CfO a listen.
Ray H
Taree
Andy Evans
seems - to my ears - very "inner layer" and little show. I wonder if
you hear it that way. I think you may misunderstand what sort of
'revalation' I'm after - this Pittsburg probably comes closest so far.
Still have to locate Fricsay and NYPO/Boulez and might try the Koksic.
Your comments are very interesting. Andy
Andy Evans
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
Andy Evans
in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is it. There is
nothing else there>
I was a little less moved the second time I heard it than the first,
but I do think it has a sense of mystery and discovery - the orchestra
was, after all, 'discovering' the work. Some parts are quite spooky -
the Elegia and the following Allegretto. I think they do maintain a
particular mood. I'll have to listen to it a few more times and see if
the effect lasts.
Alex
"Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132852114....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
> up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
> listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
> chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
> the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
> there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
> complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
> 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
> Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
> Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
> It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
The Kocsis on Hungaraton is superb as others have said. I've just got the
new Philadelphia O/Eschenbach version on Ondine and am looking forward to
it.
Michael Schaffer
"Welcome to the layer cake, son" (pretty good movie BTW featuring the
"new 007")
I agree there is something unreal and mysterious about the piece which
is hard to define, a quality that is found much in Bartók's music, and
some people are more successful at bringing that out. I haven't
listened to Fricsay in a long time but I remember he is very good at
bringing out that unreal element. I also think that Boulez's CSO
recording is much better than many say. If you don't listen carefully,
it is on the surface not quite as exciting as others, but if you do, it
is a fascinating reading right from the start where the bass lines are
very carefully developed. I also think Karajan's reading has something
removed and unreal about it, but I guess some would say that's because
most pieces he conducted sounded unreal and removed...:-) But I like it.
Michael Schaffer
Let us know what you think after repeated listenings. I don't want to
spoil your enthusiasm about this recording - we all look for different
things anyway - but I really don't think there is either mystery or
discovery here. Discovery in the sense that the playing is not very
assured. They do play all the notes with some confidence but its
obvious that they don't know what to do with them. I would call
discovery a reading in which the musicians dig into a new piece with
enthusiasm even if they may not have enough experience with the piece
to play it safely.
It is indeed spooky in a certain way but that's not a good way. It is
just almost completely devoid of musical nuances. Sometimes that can be
a very good and in itself musically effective thing - not everything
has to be very "expressivo" to be "expressive", sometimes a somewhat
neutral approach can reveal more of the inner depth of music than a
superficially sparkling one. But not here. This is just blandness.
Bob Lombard
played it once, when I was listening to every recording of
the CfO I could find.
bl
Bob Lombard
"Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote in
message news:11oe38k...@corp.supernews.com...
looking, I found a recording of the work by Tibor
Ferenc/HNPO; so I'll re-acquaint myself with that.
bl
Paul Ilechko
It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
Ormandy/Philadelphia recording, but I highly recommend it. It also comes
coupled with a very nice Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, featuring
the Casadesus family ;-)
Bob Lombard
>
>>>
>> Have to listen to it again. I bought the CD years ago and played it
>> once, when I was listening to every recording of the CfO I could
>> find.
>>
>> bl
> Oops. The Reiner I have is the CSO one. Oh well. While I was looking,
> I found a recording of the work by Tibor Ferenc/HNPO; so I'll
> re-acquaint myself with that.
>
> bl
The CfO by Tibor Ferenc and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
Orchestra is a very dramatic, hard-edged, serious minded 'layer one'
performance; an interpretation recommendable for those qualities. Well
recorded too.
The CD - IMP Classics PCD 1013 - also contains a good performance of The
Miraculous Mandarin (the suite) and the best recording of the
Kossuth-Symphonic Poem I've heard anywhere. My copy probably came from
Berkshire, and the CD isn't listed there now....
These recordings were made in Budapest in 1988, and I suspect that the
orchestra no longer exists, but this was a highly competent group of
musicians. The CfO spotlights them, and they answered the challenge
admirably.
bl
Alan Cooper
<noSPaM_pile...@patmedia.net> wrote:
>It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
>Ormandy/Philadelphia recording,
Correct. If we were talking about Ormandy's Kodaly, that would be a
different story altogether.
AC
Todd Schurk
You can get Szell's clarity and vigour plus the missing mystery and
tenderness-and an even better orchestra in better sound(with no
cut)...? Dohnanyi on Decca(available now from MHS) with the Cleveland
of 20 years later. It is my favorite Cfo after the Kocis on
Hungaraton...which trumps all others I've heard-and I own 7 or 8 of the
best. Hear it! If you don't you are not hearing the best.
Todd Schurk
Dohnanyi/Cleveland has the clarity & vigour of Szell plus the missing
mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
that good.
Sacqueboutier
I think it's mostly done in by the very poor Columbia sound. No wonder
Reiner jumped to RCA.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
jrs...@aol.com
Paul Ilechko wrote:
> It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
> Ormandy/Philadelphia recording...
Not true! I also have Ormandy (on Sony Essential Classics) and listen
to it happily. One can't ignore yet another great Hungarian conductor
and a great orchestra like that. I still think the Reiner/CSO is a
couple notches higher--for some reason Reiner's dry and occasionally
impish sense of understatement, and his clarity and economy,
complemented by his orchestra's stupendous power, tonal solidity, and
underrated suppleness and obvious technical comfort, seem to fit my
preconception of Bartok's own personality in his final years. But I
wouldn't be upset if only Ormandy/Philadelphia were available to play
this work. They play so well.
--Jeff
alanwa...@aol.com
Michael Schaffer wrote:
> Todd Schurk wrote:
> > orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
> > conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
> > down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
> > of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
> > this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
>
> Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival
> Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an opinion yet, but
> the playing is definitely very attractive and the instrumental colors
> very nice and idiomatic.
I do not know either of the recordings but the Hungarian Philharmonic
is a great orchestra as are the Opera Orchestra.
A few years ago I heard Mr Fischer with his Budapest orchestra live in
this work and also in Kodaly: Hary Janos (a work whose neglect I do not
understand) and both were wonderful performances.
Mr Ancerl was rather good at the Concerto as well. I also love this
piece: pity it's so tough, another little counting nightmare:):)
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Dan Koren
> Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
> up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
> listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
> chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
> the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
> there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
> complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
> 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
> Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
> Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
> It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
>
Try Arpad Joo.
dk
Andy Evans
composer's presentation of a trip to another dimension, one our
physical senses can't get much of a handle on. There are 'presences',
and things are happening>
Well, Bob, I went out and got the Fricsay. Wow - this is different,
virtually another work. Much too much to figure out on one listen.
There's nothing in the sleeve notes about Fricsay's description of this
work. Do you have any idea where I can find this chapter of Uber
Mozart und Bartok in English? It's not on the Net is it? I did find a
reader for another book on the Concerto, which is very interesting.
Maybe some of you would like to take a look:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0521485053/ref=sib_dp_pt/203-0708277-8263145#reader-page
Sacqueboutier
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Bob Lombard
for a recording of the CfO - maybe from an earlier release of the
subject recording. He wasn't as explicit as I am, but he mentions
Bartók's 'other place', and his attempt to take the listener there via
the CfO. Fricsay's interpretation is intended as an 'assist' (as the
term is used in basketball and hockey). The author of the introduction
to the book being peddled by amazon.uk gets lost in surmise eventually
(seems like everybody does when trying to _explain_ Bartók's music), but
it's interesting.
bl
Kalman Rubinson
>> Try Arpad Joo.
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
Kal
Gerard
>
> ??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
His Liszt recordings on Brilliant Classics. That's all I now about his
recordings.
Sacqueboutier
There is a set of Liszt tone poems on Brilliant that is just the right
balance between panache and precision. Nice colors from his Hungarian
orchestra.
As for his Sefel recordings, none are currently on CD. I believe the
Bartok was on CD for a short while. Good luck trying to find a copy.
I've tried. Just enjoy your LPs. Digitize them if need be. Use Click
Repair to remove the excess noise. Sounds great.
In addition to his (almost) all of his Bartok on LP, I have his Mahler
1st (not his best work), a Brahms double concerto (very nice, but
Verhey and Starker have played better than this), and his Janacek
Sinfonietta and Kodaly Hary Janos Suite (fan-freaking-tastic!).
All but the Mahler are worthy of CD issue. Perhaps Brilliant can be
persuaded...
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
ron...@usa.net
Sacqueboutier wrote:
> On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
> <performan...@gmail.com> said:
>
> Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
> cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
> interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
> career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
> recording of the piece.
> --
> Best wishes,
>
> Sacqueboutier
A few days late, but I need to question Ghitalla's participation in
Stoki's Bartok. Ghitalla started in Boston in 1951 and as far as I
know, never left. I thought he played in Houston before going to
Boston.
Ron Whitaker
mw
"Todd Schurk" <patte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dohnanyi/Cleveland has the clarity & vigour of Szell plus the missing
> mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
> favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
> 6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
> that good.
I agree about the Dohnanyi. It is controlled and colorful. Who else
could bring such clarity to the last two thwacks on the timps while
still bringing punch to the last chord given the orchestra? Great
recording.
Is there a dud among the following, or are there claims for each? I
certainly have enjoyed them all:
Ancerl/CPO
Fricsay/Berlin RSO
Kubelik/RPO
Kubelik/Bavarian RSO (Orfeo)
Kubelik/BSO
Dorati/RCO
I. Fischer/BFO (Philips)
I. Fischer/BFO (Hungaroton)
Boulez/CSO
Boulez/NYPO
Bernstein/NYPO
My second rank would include
Reiner/CSO
Leinsdorf/BSO
There are other also-rans, but these stand out for their special
treatment by the labels. They certainly sound good, even if the
performances don't have the verve or character of the above. At least
IMHO.
mw
Michael Schaffer
Same here (I mean Cleveland O/Christoph von D). Great playing and
sound, you hear a lot of detail you don't get in most other recordings
plus a lot of sense for color, drama, as well as the lyrical side.
Pretty groovy playing too. Plus it comes with a nice performance of
Lutoslawski's CfO.
I just ordered the Kocsis CD. Let's hope it is really that good!
Has anybody heard the recording by Mehta/BP (Sony)? (There is also an
IPO recording on Decca which I don't know.)
It is not really spectacular, very polished and rounded off, but it
also has a certain tone that somehow appeals to me.
Michael Schaffer
The sound isn't really that bad for 40s mono. But even if it was much
better, the problems would still be there: the almost complete absence
of musical nuances. The whole performance is just lalalalalalalala. A
stunningly unmusical rendering (reinering).
Kalman Rubinson
<nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote:
>On 2005-11-26 10:29:44 -0500, Kalman Rubinson <k...@nyu.edu> said:
>
>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
>> <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2005-11-26 06:25:12 -0500, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>>> Try Arpad Joo.
>>
>>> I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
>>
>> ??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
>> on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
>>
>> Kal
>
>
>There is a set of Liszt tone poems on Brilliant that is just the right
>balance between panache and precision. Nice colors from his Hungarian
>orchestra.
>
>As for his Sefel recordings, none are currently on CD. I believe the
>Bartok was on CD for a short while. Good luck trying to find a copy.
>I've tried. Just enjoy your LPs. Digitize them if need be. Use Click
>Repair to remove the excess noise. Sounds great.
>
>In addition to his (almost) all of his Bartok on LP, I have his Mahler
>1st (not his best work), a Brahms double concerto (very nice, but
>Verhey and Starker have played better than this), and his Janacek
>Sinfonietta and Kodaly Hary Janos Suite (fan-freaking-tastic!).
>
>All but the Mahler are worthy of CD issue. Perhaps Brilliant can be
>persuaded...
I have his Bartok, Janacek and Kodaly on LP. Never heard any of his
Liszt but I'll pass on the Mahler. Thanks.
Kal
Andy Evans
gets lost in surmise eventually >
the Hesse quote about Bartok is beautiful - Cooper, on the other hand
is typically turgid musicology. Hesse manages to say five times as much
without using the word hagiography.
The Historian
I had his Mendelssohn MSND on CD twenty years ago. I remember it as
ordinary and culled it.
The Historian
Todd Schurk wrote:
> Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
> orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
> conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
> down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
> of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
> this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
So far no one's mentioned Skrowaczewski/MO on Vox. It's been forgotten,
but is it forgettable?
Sacqueboutier
You may be right. I am going on anecdotal evidence. I'm from Houston
and the story I heard was that Ghitalla was principal in Houston during
the Stoky years. If you know otherwise, I yield the floor.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Dave Cook
> So far no one's mentioned Skrowaczewski/MO on Vox. It's been forgotten,
> but is it forgettable?
BRO still has the set for $6.
Dave Cook
Brendan R. Wehrung
> Bob Lombard wrote:
>> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1132876408....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Todd Schurk wrote:
>> >> Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
>> >> Philharmonic
>> >> orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It
>> >> is the best
>> >> conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on
>> >> disc-hands
>> >> down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and
>> >> have heard most
>> >> of
>> >> 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
>> >> this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
>> >
>> > Budapest Festival
>> > Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
>> > opinion yet, but
>> > the playing is definitely very attractive and the
>> > instrumental colors
>> > very nice and idiomatic.
>> >
>>
>>
>> bl
>
> I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand what the layers
> are in your model. Please explain.
>
Think of a shacher torte...
Brendan
Paul Ilechko
At that price, everyone should buy it !
Andy Evans
out today and bought that and the Dorati Hungaraton recording. I really
think the Ancerl is very good. Quite dark and meaty - strong emphasis
on the rhythms. Good clear bass in the recording reveals the lower
strings well (plenty of rosin sound on the double basses), though the
upper strings are rougher and don't have the sheen of newer recordings.
Maybe not such a bad thing. Interesting the shift in sound with a Czech
conductor and orchestra. Ancerl is closer to Friscay (though far from
identical) than some of the 'showpiece' interpretations. Certainly on
my shortlist. Just listening to Dorati now. Good recording, and
Hungarian orchestra. It's less intense than Ancerl, though it does have
an onward sense of momentum. The phrasing is more obviously lyrical -
the brass is slick and clipped, whereas with Ancerl it's chunky, closer
to a rural 'fanfare' sound. Two fairly different approaches. I think
Ancerl interests me more - it's unlike other versions. Dorati is closer
to other well played versions - more brain than blood and guts. I
imagine many would really like it. It's a lovely sounding version and
well played.
Steve Emerson
Kalman Rubinson <k...@nyu.edu> wrote:
There's a Brahms Double Concerto with Starker and Emmy Verhey, c/w the
Tragic Overture. Amsterdam Phil. "Folio Classic Masters," DDD, no notes.
If a Joo aficianado wants it for the price of shipping, e-mail me.
SE.
Raymond Hall
Have you heard Dorati's CfO with the Concertgebouw? On an Eloquence, with a
stunning MSPC by Ivan Fischer as coupling.
I listened to it a few nights ago, and thought it very good indeed. Some
very dramatic playing, but precise playing as well. Good sound too. Haitink
is a bit more clinical on a Duo, with the same orchestra. Oddly, I don't
think I have heard a really bad CfO, except that whilst Reiner is very good,
it lacks slightly the feeling of involvement that Haitink, Dorati (RCO), or
Szell bring to the work.
Ray H
Taree
Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
>Kalman Rubinson <k...@nyu.edu> - Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:29:44 -0500:
>
>> How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
>
>A few recordings of him with the Amsterdam Philharmonic (which later
>merged with the Utrecht SO to the Netherlands PO) were (are?)
>available on cd. I vaguely remember Dvorák 9, some Brahms and Mahler
>1.
I have 2 Sefel CDs with Joo. Strauss' Ein Heldenleben and various
Wagner scenes (with Eva Marton). Nothing special.
It's his Bartok and Kodaly I'd like to get on CD.
Kal
Gerard
> Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I
> grew up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded.
> Just listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something
> I'd chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most
> of the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or
> whether there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a
> pretty complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a
> specifically 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago
> than Budapest. Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a
> feel for the Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to
> interpreting this work? It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
Bob Lombard
"Gerard" <ghend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4391b03f$0$13447$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by
> Eschenbach
> on Ondine.
> http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
> In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not
> find an
> opinion about it.
> Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in
> the
> category
> American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
>
The description (Hurwitz doesn't reserve 10/10 for American orchestras
BTW - that rating is too freely given to indicate anything but 'pretty
good' anyway) indicates either a 'top layer' interpretation or Hurwitz's
unawareness of deeper layers.
I don't intend to _buy_ any more recordings of the CfO, but in the
spirit of the season am willing to accept this recording as a gift.
bl
Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
>Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
>on Ondine.
>http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
>In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
>opinion about it.
>Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
>category
>American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
It's pretty nice but nice doesn't cut it. They play it well but it's
kinda superficial. I found the Martinu on that disc a much better
performance. Great sound, btw, in multichannel.
Kal
Alex Panda
It's good, but nowhere near as fine as Kocsis on Hungaroton.
Sacqueboutier
<thorste...@vermontel.net> said:
>
> "Gerard" <ghend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4391b03f$0$13447$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>
>> Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
>> on Ondine.
>> http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
>> In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
>> opinion about it.
>> Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
>> category
>> American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
>>
> The description (Hurwitz doesn't reserve 10/10 for American orchestras
> BTW - that rating is too freely given to indicate anything but 'pretty
> good' anyway) indicates either a 'top layer' interpretation or
> Hurwitz's unawareness of deeper layers.
T
That last thing you said.
I remember a review in Fanfare where he gave his criteria for a
superior performance of Bruckner's 6th. He was reviewing the
Lopez-Cobos on Telarc. I remember thinking how shallow it was. Also,
he once dismissed a recording of a VW symphony (Slatkin, I think)
because of the double clash from the cymbal player...something that
wouldn't really bother anyone but a percussionist.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
Todd Schurk wrote:
> Andy Evans wrote:
> > The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
> > imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
> > is very very good.>
> >
> > Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
> > the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
> > pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
> > of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
> > according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
> > of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
> > everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
> > clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
>
> mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
> favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
> 6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
> that good.
I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
wasn't quite as overwhelmed by it. Maybe I just don't "get it", but I
thought it is a very well played and nicely recorded performance -
although there is a little too much spotmiking and zooming plus
reverted perspectives going on for my taste -, but I couldn't find
anything musically sensational in it. It may be among the better ones I
have heard, but, like I said, I don't get what is so special and unique
about this performance...:-(
I haven't directly compared it to other versions I have, so maybe my
recollection of those other versions is imprecise, but I actually would
prefer some of them (for instance, Dohnanyi or Fischer, maybe Chailly)
to Kocsis. I heard the Fricsay recording, but it that was so long ago
that I don't want to compare it to any of these. But I definitely want
to hear it again.
Steve Molino
>
>
> I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
I must not either. I thought the performance was rather dull compared to my
favorites (Fricsay and Reiner).
Paul Ilechko
Michael Schaffer
I wouldn't call it dull, it is a very good performance, but I don't see
why it is so special compared to other good recordings. Maybe there are
elements in this reading that I do not grasp but that others hear
better. It is very difficult to put such things in words, but sometimes
pointing to a certain passage and comparing it to other readings can
help "unlock" elements in an interpretation that a listener (in this
case me) missed at first ear.
Lawrence Chalmers
I've kept since I first heard it - Reiner's. The reason I consider it a
'keeper' is because I love the performance of 'Dance Suite.'
The first recording I ever heard of CfO
was Dorati/Minneapolis
followed by
Van Beinum/Concertgebouw
Von Karajan/Philharmonia
Reiner/CSO
Fricsay/RIAS Orchestra
Stokowski/Houston
Dorati/LSO
Boulez/NYP
Ormandy/Philadelphia (Sony)
Solti/CSO
Boulez/CSO
Kocsis/Hungarian Nat'l
I liked them, some for different reasons. In the above list, Stoky,
later Dorati/LSO, Boulez (both), Ormandy, Solti didn't impress me much.
These days, I don't want to listen to this Bartok
like I used to, so there are many I haven't yet heard. I listen to
MSPC and Miraculous Mandarin more often than any of his orchestral
works, concertos, but I still enjoy them too.
Just IMO and 2-penny's worth...
Larry
Sacqueboutier
You need to hear Kubelik/Boston.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Edward A. Cowan
Indeed! FWIW, I heard a Kubelik performance in Philadelphia with the
Cleveland Orch. some time around 1970. The other work on the program
was Brahms's 2nd symphony. This was the first and last time I ever
heard Kubelik live. I have been a fan ever since. My main recollection
was noticing the name of the principal cellist of the orchestra (a
certain Lynn Harrell). I was sitting just close enough to be struck by
his facial resemblance to another musician name Harrell (the baritone
Mack Harrell), and I was not surprised to learn that the cellist was
indeed the son of the baritone.
One of my professors at Penn was also in attendance at that
performance. He remarked: "Mit dem Brahms komme ich nicht aus..." ("I
cannot take the Brahms..."). The Bartok was superlative. At the Boston
concerts with CfO/Kubelik, the concerto was paired with the Beethoven
5th. Somewhere, I still have an open-reel tape of the broadcast of that
concert as heard via Philadelphia's late, lamented, WFLN-FM. --E.A.C.
Paul Kintzele
> The first recording I ever heard of CfO
> was Dorati/Minneapolis
> followed by
> Van Beinum/Concertgebouw
> Von Karajan/Philharmonia
> Reiner/CSO
> Fricsay/RIAS Orchestra
> Stokowski/Houston
> Dorati/LSO
> Boulez/NYP
> Ormandy/Philadelphia (Sony)
> Solti/CSO
> Boulez/CSO
> Kocsis/Hungarian Nat'l
I see Bernstein/Sony isn't on the list. That might just the double shot
of espresso you need. I was comparing last movements of the CfO the
other day, and Bernstein's wild ride won the day, even beating out the
estimable Reiner.
Paul
vhorowitz
They've got a mouthwatering DG Originals set on the website now:
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/index.htms?ID=originalmasters&PRODUCT_NR=4775838
but it's not included.
Lawrence Chalmers
CfO, and Mathis der Maler? I'm going to get that Kubelik box. What
reasons did they have not to include at least the last two of the above?
jrs...@aol.com
Kubelik didn't do those recordings. You're talking about Steinberg, on
DG. Kubelik recorded Ma Vlast and the Bartok CfO in Boston for DG.
--Jeff
vhorowitz
I think you're getting confused with William Steinberg on the other
items.
Lawrence Chalmers
Paul Kimoto
> Anyone know of a cd issue of the Kubelik/BSO on DG??
It has been available in Japan in the past. There is a current Kubelík
CfO numbered UCCG-3962 on DG; did he do any other CfOs for DG?
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-3962
--
Paul Kimoto
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text. Any images,
hyperlinks, or the like shown here have been added without my consent,
and may be a violation of international copyright law.
Dave Cook
> It has been available in Japan in the past. There is a current Kubelík
> CfO numbered UCCG-3962 on DG; did he do any other CfOs for DG?
Does anyone know what's going to be in the Kubelik Originals box? This
would seem to be a prime candidate.
> http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-3962
Someone posted this disc on the lossless group. I actually enjoyed the
coupled Martinu PC5 more, the CfO recording was somewhat murky.
No English notes in these Japanese releases, BTW, or at least not in the 2
Japanese edition Universal discs I've bought.
Dave Cook
vhorowitz
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/index.htms?ID=originalmasters&PRODUCT_NR=4775838
just click track listing.
No Bartok though, too bad.
Michael Schaffer
I like that this box contains Beethoven 1-3 which aren't available
elsewhere at this time except through a complete set available only in
Italy (and through Japanese websites). OK, that isn't much of a hurdle
in these days of internet ordering, but it's also a price
consideration. And I already have Beethoven 7-9 and some of the other
recordings from this box.