Complete Karajan on DG
ivanmaxim
that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
Mark Stenroos
Wasn't that released in 2008?
I'd be interested if the price was right as I could sell off all of
the Karajan DG discs I currently own and put that money against the
purchase of the complete set.
Got a link for that set?
Randy Lane
It is sold out (Amazon.co.jp ASIN is B00118Ymae).
It sold for about $2500 USD.
I saw one on eBay recently for about $4,500 with Free Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Karajan-Complete-Recordings-DGG-240CD-JAPAN-/220688299983?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item33620c37cf
There's also a Korean box of just the 1960s releases on 82 CDs. An
eBay seller has it available for $330 with Free Shipping
Like the Cony artist editions, there's one CD for each original LP
with an LP-likeness cardboard slipcase. For example, the Beethoven
Symphonies takes 8 CDs.
William Sommerwerck
news:29697df6-abad-47e7...@j28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> I don't recall if this was discussed before, but I just saw on
> a blog that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings
> Karajan recorded for DG...
...some of which are actually worth listening to!
http://hvk1955.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=recordings&action=display&thread=11
ivanmaxim
> On Jun 9, 11:40 am, Mark Stenroos <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 9, 11:36 am, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I don't recall if this was discussed before but I just saw on a blog
> > > that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
> > > recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
>
> > Wasn't that released in 2008?
>
> > I'd be interested if the price was right as I could sell off all of
> > the Karajan DG discs I currently own and put that money against the
> > purchase of the complete set.
>
> > Got a link for that set?
>
> It is sold out (Amazon.co.jp ASIN is B00118Ymae).
> It sold for about $2500 USD.
>
> There's also a Korean box of just the 1960s releases on 82 CDs. An
> eBay seller has it available for $330 with Free Shipping
> Like the Cony artist editions, there's one CD for each original LP
> with an LP-likeness cardboard slipcase. For example, the Beethoven
> Symphonies takes 8 CDs.
>
I don't think the big 240 CD box is an "original LP" type release. Yes
its from 2008 but I didn't know about it. Man he did record a lot
didn't he??? and this is only DG! Wagner fan
Randy Lane
> On Jun 9, 11:40 am, Mark Stenroos <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 9, 11:36 am, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I don't recall if this was discussed before but I just saw on a blog
> > > that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
> > > recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
>
> > Wasn't that released in 2008?
>
> > I'd be interested if the price was right as I could sell off all of
> > the Karajan DG discs I currently own and put that money against the
> > purchase of the complete set.
>
> > Got a link for that set?
>
> It is sold out (Amazon.co.jp ASIN is B00118Ymae).
> It sold for about $2500 USD.
>
> There's also a Korean box of just the 1960s releases on 82 CDs. An
> eBay seller has it available for $330 with Free Shipping
> Like the Cony artist editions, there's one CD for each original LP
> with an LP-likeness cardboard slipcase. For example, the Beethoven
> Symphonies takes 8 CDs.
>
I meant "Like the Sony artist editions". Sorry.
I printed out the contents listing for the 82 CD set yesterday and
determined what I don't have, and what I don't think is not available
outside that box.
Can't say that I was much enthused about getting that set; I own
pretty much everything I really "want".
I would be very interested in owning all of the Universal recordings
of HvK, but the price has to be better.
Best would be these 240 CDs plus all of the Decca recordings,
including the operas. Was there any Philips material too (an opera or
two)?
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
The blog where I saw it actually has the whole shebang via FLAC
download - that is, if you approve of such things of course. Wagner
fan
Mark Stenroos
> Was there any Philips material too (an opera or
> two)?
The only Karajan Philips recording I know of was the Falstaff, which
was only released on Philips so not to compete with DG's
contemporaneous Giulini recording. Karajan's Falstaff was reissued on
DG when the Philips label went away.
Randy Lane
That's right. I knew there was a connection somehwere.
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
Apparently my URL copies didn't take
Here's the 240 CD issue
And the 82 CD issue
M forever
Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
Mark Stenroos
Is a matter of how one defines "need."
I purchased the Complete Karajan EMI sets, but that entailed about 120
CDs for about $220. I certainly didn't need everything in those sets,
but it was a cheap way to get everything at once, including a couple
of recordings that hadn't ever been issue on CD.
Were DG to offer a complete Karajan at around $1-2 a disc, then I
might buy it, even though there are many recordings of his on DG
(Ballo, Turandot and others) that I would never listen to again. At
$3800 for the set, no way I would ever buy it.
Maybe it'll show up at Berkshire some day.
Thornhill
If DG were to sell it at a super budget price, I doubt they'd drop
much below $2 per disc (the 22 disc Gardiner/Bach box is $42 or $1.90
a disc). Let's say DG sold it for $1.50 a disc. 240 discs would run
$360. I suppose that's a good deal, but it's also kinda a lot when you
consider how much repertoire duplication there is in it.
Randy Lane
And of course none of us would part with the Japanese SHM-SACDs we've
been collecting at $40-50 per disk. Those duplications would remain,
and where the SHM-SACD isn't available there's the SHM-CD.
M forever
I guess there is a certain "encyclopaedia" value to it. Whenever
people discuss a Karajan recording on DG, you have it, you can just
"look it up". Even if you would never have listened to it otherwise.
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh I was just mentioning it - I would never buy it. I would sample
some things now and then but the whole thing would just sit here. (I'm
too busy listening to Bach Cantata sets now anyway - now there are
riches!!!!) Wagner Fan
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Encyclopsedia" value it may indeed have. But not with regard to the
art of HvK, but of the declining "art" of the DG engineers. You can
probably find a demo in the batch for just about every "don't ever do
that" in the recording industry, especially after the mid 1970s.
Russ (not Martha)
>
> Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
> have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
> his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
> recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to be
closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
Russ (not Martha)
Randy Lane
And unfortunately not just Karajan recordings.
I just received the Newton Classics budget 4 CD chubby jewel box with
Giulini's 1990s Brahms cycle this week. Most of what i have heard is
good form teh standpoint of interpretation, typically Giulini
readings. But I was disgusted with some of the close microphone
technique. The 3rd in particular seemd attrocious.
Gerard
Well *that* is a "useful" way to build a collection!
How far are we away from the possibility to look up every recording made on the
web?
Mark Stenroos
One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
know, the way Karajan & the BPO sounded like in person in the concert
hall.
Randy Lane
Along those lines how do you like/dislike the SACD of the 1977
Beethoven 9th?
I actually like it quite a lot, and believe they did something of a
genuine remix for it.
But I know others don't care for it at all, many just because it is
quite different than the one they've been accustomed to for decades.
M forever
I don't have such a problem with the close-miking as such. I also
didn't notice it to be such a problem (at least for me) in these
recordings. While not a big fan of the concept, I don't mind a little
zooming and highlighting as long as the sonorities are relatively
untampered-with, meaning fairly "natural". Every recording company
does a little bit of "sweetening" and "glossing" of the sound, my
problem with the Karajan recordings made by DG is just that it is
quite excessive and the sound is unnaturally bright and compacted,
glaring. Generally, DG did much better in Vienna, especially when
recording in the Muskverein. Many of their recordings still sound
somewhat artificial, but relatively much more "realistic" when it
comes to the sonorities than many of the recordings made in Berlin.
Not that they couldn't make very nice recordings in Berlin, too. There
are a few recordings they made with Levine in Berlin in the 80s which
actually sound very nice (e.g. the organ symphony, a Second Viennese
school program).
M forever
A lot of the problems I have with the sound do sound indeed as if they
are the result of the mixing/mastering process. I suspect what is on
the original multi-track masters could indeed be taken as a basis for
much more "natural" sounding recordings. I would really like them to
completely redo Karajan's Alpensinfonie, for instance. But of course
that will never happen.
M forever
> On Jun 9, 2:31 pm, Mark Stenroos <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 2:19 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 9, 3:03 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
> > > > have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
> > > > his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
> > > > recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
>
> > > I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
> > > for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to be
> > > closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
>
> > One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
> > and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
> > worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
> > HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
> > know, the way Karajan & the BPO sounded like in person in the concert
> > hall.
>
> Along those lines how do you like/dislike the SACD of the 1977
> Beethoven 9th?
> I actually like it quite a lot, and believe they did something of a
> genuine remix for it.
Really? I would like to hear that then.
Mark Stenroos
> On Jun 9, 2:31 pm, Mark Stenroos <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 2:19 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 9, 3:03 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
> > > > have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
> > > > his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
> > > > recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
>
> > > I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
> > > for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to be
> > > closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
>
> > One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
> > and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
> > worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
> > HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
> > know, the way Karajan & the BPO sounded like in person in the concert
> > hall.
>
> Along those lines how do you like/dislike the SACD of the 1977
> Beethoven 9th?
I don't have an SACD player, but I do have that 1977 B9 in the Karajan
"twofer" series that came out a few years ago (the set also contains
Syms 5 & 6). That remastering is great and sounds much better than the
earlier CD issue(s). Some of the recordings shortcomings (like the too-
small chorus) are exposed more in the remaster. They did tame the
overly prominent timpani in the finale. The LPs and early CDs treated
the Finale like a timpani concerto.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:29697df6-abad-47e7-ad37-f496655849c4
@j28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
> I don't recall if this was discussed before but I just saw on a blog
> that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
> recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
As soon as I see the word "complete," I wonder, "what's missing from it?"
For starters, I imagine the various live concerts in Japan which have been
released only in that country, and then in special (limited?) editions.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Steve de Mena
I imagine *everything* is available outside of this Korean box.
> Can't say that I was much enthused about getting that set; I own
> pretty much everything I really "want".
> I would be very interested in owning all of the Universal recordings
> of HvK, but the price has to be better.
> Best would be these 240 CDs plus all of the Decca recordings,
> including the operas. Was there any Philips material too (an opera or
> two)?
Philips - Falstaff.
Steve
M forever
Is that the one with Karajan and his plane on his cover?
Steve de Mena
No point in SHM-CD - no audible difference. The SHM-SACDs would be
nice, if that material isn't available on SACD elsewhere, but not at
$40-$50.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> hall.
>
The 2CD set of Beethoven symphonies attempted that, with success I feel:
Steve
Steve de Mena
> On Jun 9, 5:36 pm, Randy Lane<randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 9, 2:31 pm, Mark Stenroos<markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2:19 pm, "Russ (not Martha)"<roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jun 9, 3:03 pm, M forever<ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
>>>>> have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
>>>>> his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
>>>>> recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
>>
>>>> I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
>>>> for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to be
>>>> closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
>>
>>> One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
>>> and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
>>> worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
>>> HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
>>> hall.
>>
>> Along those lines how do you like/dislike the SACD of the 1977
>> Beethoven 9th?
>> I actually like it quite a lot, and believe they did something of a
>> genuine remix for it.
>
> Really? I would like to hear that then.
I believe the 2CD set I referenced in another post (which came out
after the SACD) sounds more vivid than that SACD.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> A lot of the problems I have with the sound do sound indeed as if they
> are the result of the mixing/mastering process. I suspect what is on
> the original multi-track masters could indeed be taken as a basis for
> much more "natural" sounding recordings. I would really like them to
> completely redo Karajan's Alpensinfonie, for instance. But of course
> that will never happen.
It's possible in the early days of digital (for the Alpensinfonie)
they had less recording tracks available (maybe only 2?) and there
aren't multi-track masters to go back to. Would love to know for sure.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> ivanmaxim<ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:29697df6-abad-47e7-ad37-f496655849c4
> @j28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I don't recall if this was discussed before but I just saw on a blog
>> that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
>> recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
>
> As soon as I see the word "complete," I wonder, "what's missing from it?"
> For starters, I imagine the various live concerts in Japan which have been
> released only in that country, and then in special (limited?) editions.
The set has all the DG releases during his lifetime, nothing from
after he died, and obviously nothing released after this set.
Steve
M forever
Good question. I had to do a little digging, but it appears that the
first digital multitrack machines were introduced in 1980:
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/audio.history.timeline.html
I seem to recall very dimly that the first 3M machine already had 32
tracks.
William Sommerwerck
news:59d39a19-270a-47aa...@v10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
This is probably due to heavy multi-miking. It might also be due to
deliberate futzing around with the overall level, though this increase the
problem of cutting a trackable disk.
William Sommerwerck
news:a7572ca9-76a7-4ddb...@l14g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
> and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
> worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
> HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
> know, the way Karajan & the BPO sounded like in person in the
> concert hall.
One aspect of "concert-hall sound" is hearing the performance from a
particular position. Multi-miking presents the orchestra from multiple
positions (with respect to the hall's acoustics).
If you want a greater sense of realism, get a hall synthesizer.
Greg
<snip>
>
> One has to wonder what exists on all those Karajan DG master tapes,
> and whether or not a group of competent engineers - like those who
> worked for Decca for all those years - could go "back to formula" on
> HvK's DG catalog and turn out recordings that sounded natural. You
> know, the way Karajan & the BPO sounded like in person in the concert
> hall.
But do you think the conducting was the same live as in the studio? I
was recently listening to a live Karajan Tchaikovsky 6 from a visit to
Tokyo in 1988, and not only is the sound incomparably better than the
studio jobs I am familiar with, but the conducting is too. Much more
direct, less glossy and smooth and fussed-over, with actual strong
attacks and accents. I think this goes well beyond sound
engineering. It seemed like a genuine deeply felt and gripping
performance rather than a lifeless, artificial simulation of one. It
seems to me that his studio efforts are often much, much more careful
and affected than the few live ones I have heard, as if he was trying
to achieve something entirely different in the studio than in the
concert hall. I wonder if this is because the live ones I have heard
are largely from the last 10 years or so of his life, or if I have
just been fortunate in the live ones I have encountered.
Greg
Mark Stenroos
Yes. Steve provided a link for it above.
M forever
I think it's more a coincidence. Sure, individual life performances
can be somewhat different and maybe more intense than studio
recordings, but with Karajan especially, I don't think one can
generalize that. I have sat in a number of his rehearsals and
recordings in the 80s, and the playing of the orchestra and his
conducting were just as concentrated and engaged as in the live
concerts. Believe it or not, Karajan was really into the whole music
making thing. He was not just a technocrat. He had a very clear idea
of what he wanted to achieve and worked on it tirelessly, and that
included technical as well as musical parameters. I was astonished to
see him still rehearse in detail when I sat in a rehearsal/recording
session for Brahms 1 in his last cycle in the mid-late 80s. If you
listen carefully, you can often find technical blemishes in his
recordings, contrary to popular belief. Because they were far less
edited than many think. He often recorded in long, concentrated
stretches and cared less about the occasional mistake than the long
line.
M forever
I have that, and a Galeria one which I think was the first appearance
of this recording on CD. I just sampled both of them. There is a very
marked difference in sound between the two, the later one is brighter
and cleaner, especially in the bass, and the perspectives are slightly
shifted, too. On the later one the soloists are more concentrated in
the middle an more forward than on the earlier one. I couldn't hear a
big difference in how the timpani come across though. Actually they
appeared to me to have a little more presence and clarity in the later
version.
Mark Stenroos
Karajan was quite open and specific that he felt the recording studio
and the concert hall were two different things. I believe I read that
he felt recordings were at best a representation of the concert hall.
I've noticed that Karajan's live opera recordings often feature
swifter tempi than do his studio jobs. Perhaps his long experience as
a performing artist led him to accept that there were compromises to
be made in the theater based on the limitations of the performers, who
were only human, after all. Those limitations may be easily mitigated
in the studio of course - multiple takes, splices, etc. There's every
chance that K saw studio recordings as a way to set down a more fully
realized version of HIS vision of a particular piece, and it's
possible that the baby was thrown out with the bath water on
occasion.
On the other hand, there are many instances in K recordings where
small flubs in ensemble (along with the occasional glaring clam) were
left to stand in a final mix, presumably because everything else about
that particular section of a recording was really good. Like anybody
who makes recordings, K was faced with choices between different
takes, ultimately opting for the takes that he felt best presented
what he was trying to deliver. This is especially true with his
post-1960s recordings on DG, where K insisted on having absolute final
say over the finished product. It's entirely possible that someone not
as close to the process as K himself could come up with a better
overall product. I'd love to set the Decca team loose on K's DG
catalog and see what resulted.
Steve de Mena
Yeah, but that would have been horrendously expensive. You would have
found that only in some of the top pop studios. ABBA had one in their
Polar studios in Sweden.
A lot of classical recordings were made with that Sony 2-channel
device that hooked to Beta video recorders. (PCFM1 or something or other)
Steve
Mark Stenroos
Karajan's DG Parsifal was advertised in the press as being a 32-track
recording.
Mark Stenroos
>
> I have that, and a Galeria one which I think was the first appearance
> of this recording on CD. I just sampled both of them. There is a very
> marked difference in sound between the two, the later one is brighter
> and cleaner, especially in the bass, and the perspectives are slightly
> shifted, too. On the later one the soloists are more concentrated in
> the middle an more forward than on the earlier one. I couldn't hear a
> big difference in how the timpani come across though. Actually they
> appeared to me to have a little more presence and clarity in the later
> version.
Your post bears evidence that there are probably any number of
excellent Karajan recordings on DG that have never been revealed for
how excellent they actually are do to the poor mixing/mastering they
received during the years when K was around to give or withhold final
approval.
Case in point is the galleria B 9 under discussion. I have that
mastering in the Karajan Symphonies set that includes his 1977 cycle.
I remember comparing the Galleria CD to the LP (which I still own)
long ago and thought they pretty much sounded the same. The "airplane
cover" remaster sounds very different from this early mastering.
That begs the question: how many other glassy, zoomy, brittle, glaring
K recordings are only that way due to decisions made during the
mastering process? Is it possible the the studio takes/masters contain
raw data that could be made to sound quite different were a new set of
engineers allowed to work with the original parts?
M forever
Mark pointed out that that Parsifal was advertised as being a 32-track
recording though. I would actually be surprised if they *didn't* have
whatever was the latest and greatest back then - Karajan had to have
the best toys, and back then, DG also prided themselves as being on
the technical cutting edge.
M forever
Are you sure you remember hat correctly? Those two sentences actually
contradict each other (I think).
> I've noticed that Karajan's live opera recordings often feature
> swifter tempi than do his studio jobs. Perhaps his long experience as
> a performing artist led him to accept that there were compromises to
> be made in the theater based on the limitations of the performers, who
> were only human, after all. Those limitations may be easily mitigated
> in the studio of course - multiple takes, splices, etc. There's every
> chance that K saw studio recordings as a way to set down a more fully
> realized version of HIS vision of a particular piece, and it's
> possible that the baby was thrown out with the bath water on
> occasion.
That may be true, and what you say about the different tempi may be
true, too (I don't really know as I haven't heard much live Karajan
opera recordings), and it would make sense, but I think in general,
his musical concepts and his attitude towards music making didn't
really change between live concerts and studio recordings (see my
other post).
> On the other hand, there are many instances in K recordings where
> small flubs in ensemble (along with the occasional glaring clam) were
> left to stand in a final mix, presumably because everything else about
> that particular section of a recording was really good. Like anybody
> who makes recordings, K was faced with choices between different
> takes, ultimately opting for the takes that he felt best presented
> what he was trying to deliver. This is especially true with his
> post-1960s recordings on DG, where K insisted on having absolute final
> say over the finished product. It's entirely possible that someone not
> as close to the process as K himself could come up with a better
> overall product. I'd love to set the Decca team loose on K's DG
> catalog and see what resulted.
What Decca team? The one that made all the horrible Solti recordings
in the 70s and 80s? Those are even worse (sonically) than Karajan's!
Mark Stenroos
>
> What Decca team? The one that made all the horrible Solti recordings
> in the 70s and 80s? Those are even worse (sonically) than Karajan's!
I was thinking of the team(s) that did the Maazel/Cleveland and
Montreal/Dutoit recordings. Don't know if those were different teams,
but both the Cleveland and OSM recordings sounded very natural while
being of demonstration quality.
William Sommerwerck
news:JI6dnchMzvmlHGzQ...@giganews.com...
> A lot of classical recordings were made with that Sony 2-channel
> device that hooked to Beta video recorders. (PCFM1 or something
> or other).
It would be more-correct to say that many early digital recordings were made
with the Sony 1610, which has a poor reputation for sound quality.
I made a lot of live recordings with the PCM-F1 -- actually, the Nakamichi
DMP-100, a slightly modified version of the PCM-F1. Still have it.
M forever
Yes, those sounded very nice, a good example for how sophisticated
recording techniques can be used to create something which sounds more
"realistic" or which enhance the listening experience, but in subtle
ways. For instance, in Montreal, they always used support mics for the
basses so you get a cleaner and more present bass line than on most
recordings (which I like, of course). Yes, it's a little "artificial",
but in a way which does not disfigure the sonorities of the orchestra
unnaturally.
Gerard
> On Jun 9, 5:28 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 9, 2:19 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 9, 3:03 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I
> > > > think I have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big
> > > > fan of a lot of his recordings anyway, since I don't like the
> > > > glossy, glary, hazy recording esthetic DG applied to many of
> > > > them.
> >
> > > I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
> > > for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to
> > > be closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
> >
> >
> > And unfortunately not just Karajan recordings.
> > I just received the Newton Classics budget 4 CD chubby jewel box
> > with Giulini's 1990s Brahms cycle this week. Most of what i have
> > heard is good form teh standpoint of interpretation, typically
> > Giulini readings. But I was disgusted with some of the close
> > microphone technique. The 3rd in particular seemd attrocious.
>
> I don't have such a problem with the close-miking as such. I also
> didn't notice it to be such a problem (at least for me) in these
> recordings. While not a big fan of the concept, I don't mind a little
> zooming and highlighting as long as the sonorities are relatively
> untampered-with, meaning fairly "natural". Every recording company
> does a little bit of "sweetening" and "glossing" of the sound, my
> problem with the Karajan recordings made by DG is just that it is
> quite excessive and the sound is unnaturally bright and compacted,
> glaring. Generally, DG did much better in Vienna, especially when
> recording in the Muskverein. Many of their recordings still sound
> somewhat artificial, but relatively much more "realistic" when it
> comes to the sonorities than many of the recordings made in Berlin.
> Not that they couldn't make very nice recordings in Berlin, too. There
> are a few recordings they made with Levine in Berlin in the 80s which
> actually sound very nice (e.g. the organ symphony, a Second Viennese
> school program).
They could. But they did not when Karajan was involved.
Steve de Mena
Good point.
Steve
Gerard
> ivanmaxim <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:29697df6-abad-47e7-ad37-f496655849c4
> @j28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I don't recall if this was discussed before but I just saw on a blog
> > that Japan has a 240 CD set with all of the recordings Karajan
> > recorded for DG. It comes in a presentation case. Wagner fan
>
> As soon as I see the word "complete," I wonder, "what's missing from
> it?" For starters, I imagine the various live concerts in Japan which
> have been released only in that country, and then in special
> (limited?) editions.
Where those recordings made for DG?
M forever
No. They were recorded by NHK. And not specifically for DG, I think.
Bob Harper
> On Jun 9, 2:19 pm, "Russ (not Martha)"<roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 9, 3:03 pm, M forever<ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you really need everything Karajan ever recorded for DG? I think I
>>> have about all the Karajan I need, and I am not a big fan of a lot of
>>> his recordings anyway, since I don't like the glossy, glary, hazy
>>> recording esthetic DG applied to many of them.
>>
>> I would add 'zoomy' to the adjective list. Some Karajan recordings
>> for DG had an odd characteristic in that the orchestra seemed to be
>> closer or more distant depending on the volume level.
>>
>> Russ (not Martha)
>
> And unfortunately not just Karajan recordings.
> I just received the Newton Classics budget 4 CD chubby jewel box with
> Giulini's 1990s Brahms cycle this week. Most of what i have heard is
> good form teh standpoint of interpretation, typically Giulini
> readings. But I was disgusted with some of the close microphone
> technique. The 3rd in particular seemd attrocious.
Ouch. That bad? I've heard these praised to the skies as interpretations.
Bob Harper
M forever
No, not that bad at all. Fantastic interpretations, good sound
recording, too, some close-miking, but not particularly much, and,
what's most important, fairly natural sonics, not much processing and
glossifying going on. Typically when "reviews" contain words such as
"disgusting" and "atrocious" (or "attrocious"), the object of the
review triggered some strong prejudice in the reviewer (e.g. that
close-miking is generally bad) and that results in such completely
over the top statements.
Bob Harper
> On Jun 12, 12:26 am, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 6/9/11 2:28 PM, Randy Lane wrote:
>>> I just received the Newton Classics budget 4 CD chubby jewel box with
>>> Giulini's 1990s Brahms cycle this week. Most of what i have heard is
>>> good form teh standpoint of interpretation, typically Giulini
>>> readings. But I was disgusted with some of the close microphone
>>> technique. The 3rd in particular seemd attrocious.
>>
>> Ouch. That bad? I've heard these praised to the skies as interpretations.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> No, not that bad at all. Fantastic interpretations, good sound
> recording, too, some close-miking, but not particularly much, and,
> what's most important, fairly natural sonics, not much processing and
> glossifying going on. Typically when "reviews" contain words such as
> "disgusting" and "atrocious" (or "attrocious"), the object of the
> review triggered some strong prejudice in the reviewer (e.g. that
> close-miking is generally bad) and that results in such completely
> over the top statements.
Thanks. It's on my to-purchase list. How would you compare 1 and 2 with
the LA recordings?
Bob Harper
M forever
Musically they are very similar, not surprisingly. IIRC, the tempi are
not far apart, broad, but not excessively slow, and there is a strong
pulse and sense of musical energy pushing forward despite the somewhat
slow tempi. Giulini got some fantastically rich and sonorous playing
and sound from the LAP, so orchestrally, there isn't much of a
difference either which means a lot because to match the WP in this
repertoire is no small feat. The playing of the LAP is a little
edgier, with slightly more slender woodwind playing and the horns have
a nice bite to the sound when they play forte. This kind of sound
combines elements of central European and American styles in a very
convincing way. It's a pity the LAP has completely lost that
distinctive sound under Salonen.
M forever
Apparently this set is also available in this edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Complete-Symphonies-Overture-Variations/dp/B004RRW4J2
I bought it years ago in in a DG edition only for the Italian market.
Bob Harper
>>
>> Thanks. It's on my to-purchase list. How would you compare 1 and 2 with
>> the LA recordings?
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Musically they are very similar, not surprisingly. IIRC, the tempi are
> not far apart, broad, but not excessively slow, and there is a strong
> pulse and sense of musical energy pushing forward despite the somewhat
> slow tempi. Giulini got some fantastically rich and sonorous playing
> and sound from the LAP, so orchestrally, there isn't much of a
> difference either which means a lot because to match the WP in this
> repertoire is no small feat. The playing of the LAP is a little
> edgier, with slightly more slender woodwind playing and the horns have
> a nice bite to the sound when they play forte. This kind of sound
> combines elements of central European and American styles in a very
> convincing way. It's a pity the LAP has completely lost that
> distinctive sound under Salonen.
Thanks again. Giulini's truncated tenure in LA (his wife's illness, I
believe) will surely be seen as a Golden Age if it isn't already.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
> On Jun 13, 8:20 pm, M forever<ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 4:34 pm, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Thanks. It's on my to-purchase list. How would you compare 1 and 2 with
>>> the LA recordings?
>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> Musically they are very similar, not surprisingly. IIRC, the tempi are
>> not far apart, broad, but not excessively slow, and there is a strong
>> pulse and sense of musical energy pushing forward despite the somewhat
>> slow tempi. Giulini got some fantastically rich and sonorous playing
>> and sound from the LAP, so orchestrally, there isn't much of a
>> difference either which means a lot because to match the WP in this
>> repertoire is no small feat. The playing of the LAP is a little
>> edgier, with slightly more slender woodwind playing and the horns have
>> a nice bite to the sound when they play forte. This kind of sound
>> combines elements of central European and American styles in a very
>> convincing way. It's a pity the LAP has completely lost that
>> distinctive sound under Salonen.
>
> Apparently this set is also available in this edition:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Complete-Symphonies-Overture-Variations/dp/B004RRW4J2
>
> I bought it years ago in in a DG edition only for the Italian market.
Yes, it just came out on Newton within the last few weeks.
Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:uZxJp.36412$7C3.17592@en-nntp-
06.dc1.easynews.com:
> Thanks again. Giulini's truncated tenure in LA (his wife's illness, I
> believe) will surely be seen as a Golden Age if it isn't already.
>
> Bob Harper
I felt it was a golden age while it was going on. Unfortunately, I was
living outside of L.A. the whole time, and only saw Giulini conduct here once
(plus a tour performance to San Jose, of all places, where he conducted what
I think was his very first "Eroica").
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don�t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don�t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Gerard
That's the set under discussion here.