Stokowski/NBC Symphony Beethoven 6th (Cala) now available in USA
Steve Sanders
> Two Cala releases arrived today, just (not quite) in time for
> Christmas -- I've logged them into the web store, exclusive until late
> January 2007 when they hit brick'n'mortar stores, at least what's
> left with Tower deader than Toscanini...
> Beethoven: Symphony No.6 in F Major "Pastoral", Op.68
> with the Sounds of Nature (originally released as RCA Red Seal
> LM 1830)
> Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsodies Nos.1-3 (originally released as RCA Red
> Seal LM 1878)
> plus! Stokowski on Beethoven, the sounds of nature, and the genesis of
> the Sixth Symphony
> members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra
> Leopold Stokowski
> Cala CAA-545 (CACD0545)
> http://www.shopforte.com/product_info.php?products_id=5887
> ON SALE! $12.49 (reg. $15.99)
> Respighi: The Ballad of the Gnomes, P124
> Respighi: Trittico Botticelliano, P151
> Respighi: Suite in G Major for Strings and Organ, P56
> Respighi: Adagio con Variazione for Cello and Orchestra, P133
> Leslie Pearson, cello
> Alexander Baillie, cello
> Philharmonia Orchestra
> Geoffrey Simon, conductor
> Cala SACD CAA-4028 (previously released on CD as CACD1028)
> http://www.shopforte.com/product_info.php?products_id=5678
> ON SALE! $17.49 (reg. $21.99)
>
Matthew B. Tepper
highlights with an odd assortment of fillers -- two waltzes of Johann Strauss
fils, Beethoven's "Turkish March" and Mozart's "Turkish Rondo."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
"Steve Sanders" <san...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:458c7632$0$17143$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
I'm not much of a Stoki fan, but I leap at any opportunity to hear the NBC
Symphony in a non-8H venue.
Question: does Stokowski give the repeat in the scherzo? I sampled the LP
years ago, but I don't remember this detail. (I could edit one in if I had
to.) Given Stoki's slice-and-dice treatment of the Beethoven 7th with the
SOTA, I wouldn't put anything past him.
Russ (not Martha)
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
The Manhattan Center acoustics were infinitely preferable to the harsh,
dry Studio 8H sonics favoured by Toscanini so the NBC SO sounds more
mellifluous and rich than usual in Stoki's Pastoral. He doesn't make
the Scherzo mvt repeat but is he alone on disc in doing this? In
particular, did every 78rpm recording observe it? And was the 1st mvt
repeat not observed by most conductors on records until the advent of
the LP?
Todd Schurk
Karajan also omits the scherzo repeat and the first movement repeat in
his famous early 60's DG Berlin Phil. recording of the cycle.
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 24, 11:01 am, "Todd Schurk" <patterb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> kerrison126-spar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > The Manhattan Center acoustics were infinitely preferable to the harsh,
> > dry Studio 8H sonics favoured by Toscanini so the NBC SO sounds more
> > mellifluous and rich than usual in Stoki's Pastoral. He doesn't make
> > the Scherzo mvt repeat but is he alone on disc in doing this? In
> > particular, did every 78rpm recording observe it? And was the 1st mvt
> > repeat not observed by most conductors on records until the advent of
> > the LP?
> Karajan also omits the scherzo repeat and the first movement repeat in
> his famous early 60's DG Berlin Phil. recording of the cycle.
Reiner did the same in his CSO recording and the concerts that
preceded it, although there was a British Victrola LP release that had
the repeats spliced in. Bruno Walter was very stingy with repeats and
it's a good bet that he omitted them on all three of his recordings,
but that's just a guess until I try them.
I own most of the 78 sets of the Pastoral but have only a hazy memory
about repeats in them. I think many omit the one in the first movement.
Checking them is a project for some afternoon -- Weissmann,
Weingartner, Schalk, Koussevitzky, Mengelberg, Pfitzner, Toscanini/BBC,
Stokowski/New York City Symphony, et cetera....
Don Tait
Kimba W. Lion
>although there was a British Victrola LP release that had
>the repeats spliced in.
Is splicing in "repeats" more or less acceptable than rechanneling for
stereo?
Curtis Croulet
> Karajan also omits the scherzo repeat and the first movement repeat in
> his famous early 60's DG Berlin Phil. recording of the cycle.
I'm sure someone will supply a catalog of non-repeaters in the Pastoral's
scherzo. In addition to HvK's 1960s recording, his 80's recording also
omits it, as do Munch, Ormandy and Pfitzner. I would expect there to be
others. This was just a quick survey of my collection. Omission of the 1st
mvt repeat was frequent amongst the older conductors. Even Toscanini
omitted it with the BBC.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Bob Lombard
"Kimba W. Lion" <KimbaWLion> wrote in message
news:3o2uo294cl1vbdua0...@4ax.com...
Depends on the source of the splices. Many, perhaps a majority, of
studio recordings are a series of splices.
bl
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 24, 7:09 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net>
wrote:
> > Karajan also omits the scherzo repeat and the first movement repeat in
> > his famous early 60's DG Berlin Phil. recording of the cycle.
> I'm sure someone will supply a catalog of non-repeaters in the Pastoral's
> scherzo. In addition to HvK's 1960s recording, his 80's recording also
> omits it, as do Munch, Ormandy and Pfitzner. I would expect there to be
> others. This was just a quick survey of my collection. Omission of the 1st
> mvt repeat was frequent amongst the older conductors. Even Toscanini
> omitted it with the BBC.
Part of the reason for the omission of the first movement repeat in
78 versions could have been the playing time of 12" 78 sides --
approximately 4'30". At a standard tempo, the movement takes about nine
minutes. Perfect for two 78 sides. Including the first and third
movement repeats would have added about five minutes to the length of
the recording, meaning the equivalent of another 78 side, meaning
another record in the set, meaning a higher price, meaning fewer
possible sales, et cetera. But part of it could have been the attitude
of many older conductors, who as Curtis writes frequently omitted
repeats anyway.
I checked Toscanini's 1952 NBC SO recording. He plays the repeats in
both movements there, so the BBC omission could have been due to 78
lengths. The NBC timings are:
I -- 11:47
II -- 11:28
III -- 5:01
IV -- 3:31
V -- 8:47
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 24, 5:21 pm, Kimba W. Lion <KimbaWLion> wrote:
Both are fairly disgraceful, but for different reasons. Splicing in
repeats that the performers had omitted contravenes their wishes and
alters the musical impression they wanted to give, whether the listener
might think their intentions good or bad. Rechanelling for stereo --
since it almost always inflicted severe damage on the original sound --
damages the effect the recording could have upon everyone who newly
comes upon it. The difference, it seems to me, is that the first might
have been done for musical reasons that not every listener might even
notice. The second was done in a desperate attempt to get more
marketplace mileage out of mono recordings that no longer sold well in
the early days of stereo and resulted in sound so dreadful that it
damaged the entire performance's effect. No one could be unaware of how
bad the result sounded, except to think about how "bad" the sound was
and that they should avoid such recordings -- which is just what the
record company geniuses who came up with the idea thought they'd
side-step.
Good question!
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 25, 4:31 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> On Dec 24, 7:09?pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net>
> wrote:
>
> > > Karajan also omits the scherzo repeat and the first movement repeat in
> > > his famous early 60's DG Berlin Phil. recording of the cycle.
> > I'm sure someone will supply a catalog of non-repeaters in the Pastoral's
> > scherzo. ?In addition to HvK's 1960s recording, his 80's recording also
> > omits it, as do Munch, Ormandy and Pfitzner. ?I would expect there to be
> > others. ?This was just a quick survey of my collection. ?Omission of the 1st
> > mvt repeat was frequent amongst the older conductors. ?Even Toscanini
> > omitted it with the BBC. Part of the reason for the omission of the first movement repeat in
> 78 versions could have been the playing time of 12" 78 sides --
> approximately 4'30". At a standard tempo, the movement takes about nine
> minutes. Perfect for two 78 sides. Including the first and third
> movement repeats would have added about five minutes to the length of
> the recording, meaning the equivalent of another 78 side, meaning
> another record in the set, meaning a higher price, meaning fewer
> possible sales, et cetera. But part of it could have been the attitude
> of many older conductors, who as Curtis writes frequently omitted
> repeats anyway.
>
> I checked Toscanini's 1952 NBC SO recording. He plays the repeats in
> both movements there, so the BBC omission could have been due to 78
> lengths. The NBC timings are:
>
> I -- 11:47
> II -- 11:28
> III -- 5:01
> IV -- 3:31
> V -- 8:47
>
> Don Tait
I should have written that at a standard tempo without the repeat,
the first movement takes about nine minutes.
Don T.
Curtis Croulet
> 78 versions could have been the playing time of 12" 78 sides --
> approximately 4'30".
Toscanini played the 1st mvt repeat in his Nov 11, 1939, NBC performance, so
I'd agree that the 78 side length was probably a factor in his omission of
the repeat in his BBC performance.
A scherzo non-repeater that I forgot to mention was your own Fritz Reiner.
Curtis Croulet
experiences of buying yet another remastering, hoping that some miracle had
been achieved, I finally decided that old recordings are, well, old. The
furious and uncivil arguments of some forumites over various remasterings
often resemble, to me, medieval arguments over the number of angels able to
stand on the head of a pin. This is not to say that terrible damage hasn't
been inflicted on old recordings at times, but many times the result has
been inoffensive if not usually an improvement. The pseudo-stereo version
of Toscanini's recording of the New World Symphony is ghastly, IMHO, but
more often the main effect of pseudo-stereo has been simply to soften the
hard-rock-in-the-middle effect of a pure mono recording as heard on a stereo
system. It still leaves one with an old recording which probably should
have been left alone, but I can't see getting worked up over it.
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 26, 12:34 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net>
wrote:
> > Part of the reason for the omission of the first movement repeat in
> > 78 versions could have been the playing time of 12" 78 sides --
> > approximately 4'30".
> Toscanini played the 1st mvt repeat in his Nov 11, 1939, NBC performance, so
> I'd agree that the 78 side length was probably a factor in his omission of
> the repeat in his BBC performance.
>
> A scherzo non-repeater that I forgot to mention was your own Fritz Reiner.
Yes, I wrote in a previous message that Reiner didn't play the repeat
in the scherzo in either the recording or the concert I heard him
conduct of it before the recording was made. And as I wrote in another
message, Toscanini played the repeats in both the first and third
movements in his NBC SO recording. I'd assume that he did customarily
unless something convinced him to delete them, such as 78 or broadcast
durations. You citation of the November 11, 1939 broadcast would seem
to bear that out.
Don Tait
Don Tait
Don Tait
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
> On Dec 26, 12:34?am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net>
> wrote:
> > > ? Part of the reason for the omission of the first movement repeat in
Stokowski did of course make the first movement repeat in the Brahms
2nd for his 1977 CBS recording (now on Cala) but I bet it was the first
and only time he ever did so. I also think I'm right in saying that
this was one repeat, plus the one in the first movement of Brahms's 1st
Symphony, that no conductor ever made on 78s, and in those days
probably not in concert either.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:1167211221.4...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Stokowski did of course make the first movement repeat in the Brahms 2nd
> for his 1977 CBS recording (now on Cala)
Aha! I have been buying several of the Stokowski CDs on that label, but had
somehow missed this one. Thanks for the reference to it.
> but I bet it was the first and only time he ever did so. I also think I'm
> right in saying that this was one repeat, plus the one in the first
> movement of Brahms's 1st Symphony, that no conductor ever made on 78s, and
> in those days probably not in concert either.
--
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
Stokowski's 1977 Brahms 2 is coupled with his Mendelssohn "Italian" of
the same year (first movement repeat also observed!) ... I think you
can hear audio snippets from both on the Cala website:
www.calarecords.com
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 27, 3:20 am, kerrison126-spar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Stokowski did of course make the first movement repeat in the Brahms
> 2nd for his 1977 CBS recording (now on Cala) but I bet it was the first
> and only time he ever did so. I also think I'm right in saying that
> this was one repeat, plus the one in the first movement of Brahms's 1st
> Symphony, that no conductor ever made on 78s, and in those days
> probably not in concert either.- Hide quoted text
I own most of the 78 sets of Brahms 1 and 2 and can confirm that
you're correct about the first movement repeat not being observed. I'm
fairly certain that the first time the first movement repeat in 2 was
ever observed on records was Monteux/Vienna PO, around 1958. I remember
that when RCA Victor issued it everyone was astonished. No one had
heard the repeat before, live or on records.
As for Stokowski, it's hard to ever bet on something about him
without data because he was so unpredictable, but you might be correct
about the first movement repeat in 2. He was 94 or so when he recorded
it, but re-thinking everything every time was Stokowski to the core. I
have at least two live tapes of him doing Brahms 2 that don't contain
the repeat -- New York Philharmonic circa 1949 and Chicago Symphony in
1958. By the way, both are better performances than the late LP or the
1929ish Philadelphia 78s, his only commercial recordings of the work.
Neither shows well what he could do with score, as the live
performances do. Especially the Philadelphia 78s, which I find among
Stokowski's few disappointments on records. The last movement is
something of a slog.
Don Tait
GMS
Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> I
> have at least two live tapes of him doing Brahms 2 that don't contain
> the repeat -- New York Philharmonic circa 1949 and Chicago Symphony in
> 1958. By the way, both are better performances than the late LP or the
> 1929ish Philadelphia 78s, his only commercial recordings of the work.
> Neither shows well what he could do with score, as the live
> performances do. Especially the Philadelphia 78s, which I find among
> Stokowski's few disappointments on records. The last movement is
> something of a slog.
>
> Don Tait
Glad to read Don's observations about Stoki's Brahms 2 recordings. As
a MAJOR fan of Stokowski, I was quite surprised and disappointed with
his Brahms 2 recordings---especially since I thought the piece would be
right up his alley. Am glad to learn of better surviving b'casts.
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Paul Penna
Lake excerpts (billed as Acts II & III on the original LM-1894
gatefold). We had that around the house when I was a kid, so in part my
purchase was an exercise in nostalgia, over and above the musical
considerations.
Frankly, I was put off by the audio quality. Quite clearly, this wasn't
an 8-H recording considering the cavernous acoustic. In most cases, the
orchestra sounds overly distant, though there are instances of
highlighting solo or small-ensemble sections. I was surprised to find
reviews, both contemporaneous as well as recent, that raved about the
"warmth" of the sonics. To me, they sound anything but! Cold, edgy and
echoey would be my characterization of most of it.
I wonder where it was recorded, and whether there was any artificial
enhancement of the reverb. Is this similar to other Stokowski/NBC
recordings of the time? Am I alone in disliking the sound?
Musically, one thing that always electrified me, even as a kid, was the
transition in Act III between No. 18 and No. 21, the Danse espagnole.
I've never heard it on another recording, and I always thought
Tchaikovsky should have positioned those numbers that way the first
place.
This time around, I took particular pleasure in the jaunty, Italianate
flavor of the trumpet solo in the Neapolitan Dance. Who's the trumpet,
and should we credit him or Stokowski for that quality?
ansermetniac
wrote:
Manhattan Center
Harry Glantz is the Trumpet
I hate cold cavernous sound too. Most peeple love it.
Abbedd
Mark Melson
wrote:
>Speaking of Stokowski/NBC SO, I just got the Cala release of his Swan
Though I can't remember where I read this, I recall a story about that
recording which pointed out that Stokowski experimented by
compartmentalizing the orchestra. He separated the various choirs of
the orchestra, with sonic barriers between them, miked them separately
and then the engineer, under Stoky's supervision, mixed it down into a
monaural master. I even recall seeing a photo of the orcherstra
layout.
I've checked a couple of sources in my library and still can't find
documentation for that story, so I hope someone can cite chapter and
verse for this description.
I also find it curious that the front cover of LM-1894 makes no
reference to the orchestra, and both the spine and the back of the
jacket read "... Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra." One on-line
Stokowski discography lists the recording date as October 1954, which
is after NBC disbanded its symphony orchestra and even after many of
the NBC Symphony musicians reorganized as the Symphony of the Air. Did
RCA have the right to use the name "NBC Symphony" at all for this
group of musicians?
More questions than answers, I'm afraid, but perhaps someone will know
the facts and share them with us.
Mark Melson
Matthew B. Tepper
> I also find it curious that the front cover of LM-1894 makes no reference
> to the orchestra, and both the spine and the back of the jacket read "...
> Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra." One on-line Stokowski discography
> lists the recording date as October 1954, which is after NBC disbanded its
> symphony orchestra and even after many of the NBC Symphony musicians
> reorganized as the Symphony of the Air. Did RCA have the right to use the
> name "NBC Symphony" at all for this group of musicians?
I'm reminded of another curious attribution. When Rafael Kubelik recorded
his Beethoven symphony cycle for DGG, the "gimmick" was that it was spread
around several orchestras across the world. The 8th was given as having been
recorded by "Members of the Cleveland Orchestra." I'm sort of fuzzy on when
that recording was made, so I don't know if the orchestra was under contract
to EMI, Columbia, Decca, or Telarc at the time.
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 29, 7:34 pm, Paul Penna <tterr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Speaking of Stokowski/NBC SO, I just got the Cala release of his Swan
> Lake excerpts (billed as Acts II & III on the original LM-1894
> gatefold). We had that around the house when I was a kid, so in part my
> purchase was an exercise in nostalgia, over and above the musical
> considerations.
>
> Frankly, I was put off by the audio quality. Quite clearly, this wasn't
> an 8-H recording considering the cavernous acoustic. In most cases, the
> orchestra sounds overly distant, though there are instances of
> highlighting solo or small-ensemble sections. I was surprised to find
> reviews, both contemporaneous as well as recent, that raved about the
> "warmth" of the sonics. To me, they sound anything but! Cold, edgy and
> echoey would be my characterization of most of it.
>
> I wonder where it was recorded, and whether there was any artificial
> enhancement of the reverb. Is this similar to other Stokowski/NBC
> recordings of the time? Am I alone in disliking the sound?
It was recorded in 1954/55 in Manhattan Center in New York City, a
large and reverberent place that Stokowski favored for his RCA Victor
records from about 1947 and RCA Victor used for NYC recordings by
others, including Morton Gould. Vanguard used it too, and I think
Columbia made a few Bernstein/NY Phil. recordings there. I've always
liked the sound of the Stokowski Swan Lake, but that's personal, as is
your reasonable reaction. It is indeed cavernous.
Studio 8-H was converted to a television studio during the summer of
1950 and no more classical performances or recordings took place there.
The last I knew, 8-H was the site of "Saturday Night Live."
Spotlighting of woodwind and other solos was a characteristic of
Stokowski's records in those days, as was artificial manipulation of
dynamic levels. He had a theory that recordings would permit things of
balance or whatever that were impossible in live performance and did it
aggressively on his records after about 1946. He seems to have
abandoned the most egregious of it after about 1952, but he never
stopped. That was Stoki. There might have been added reverb to Swan
Lake, but Manhattan Center seems to be like Mammoth Cave on its own.
Don Tait
Steve de Mena
I believe in the early 80s there was a live
broadcast from 8H with Zubin Mehta and the NY
Phil, with Leontyne Price, on NBC.
Ah, here it is:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335263/
Steve
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 30, 3:14 pm, Steve de Mena <s...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> Steve- Hide quoted text
I didn't know that. Good deal. Thanks.
Don T.
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1167510757.7...@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com:
> Studio 8-H was converted to a television studio during the summer of
> 1950 and no more classical performances or recordings took place there.
> The last I knew, 8-H was the site of "Saturday Night Live."
It still is. And NBC broadcast a couple of Mehta/New York Philharmonic
concerts from there during the early 1980s.
ron...@usa.net
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Mark Melson <jmmelso...@sbcglobal.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:8qrbp252iu2ue5v0p...@4ax.com:
>
> > I also find it curious that the front cover of LM-1894 makes no reference
> > to the orchestra, and both the spine and the back of the jacket read "...
> > Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra." One on-line Stokowski discography
> > lists the recording date as October 1954, which is after NBC disbanded its
> > symphony orchestra and even after many of the NBC Symphony musicians
> > reorganized as the Symphony of the Air. Did RCA have the right to use the
> > name "NBC Symphony" at all for this group of musicians?
>
> I'm reminded of another curious attribution. When Rafael Kubelik recorded
> his Beethoven symphony cycle for DGG, the "gimmick" was that it was spread
> around several orchestras across the world. The 8th was given as having been
> recorded by "Members of the Cleveland Orchestra." I'm sort of fuzzy on when
> that recording was made, so I don't know if the orchestra was under contract
> to EMI, Columbia, Decca, or Telarc at the time.
>
The Kubelik Beethoven 8th was recorded in two sessions on March 3/4,
1975. It is attributed to "Members of The Cleveland Orchestra" due to
the fact that not all of the members of the orchestra were paid for
this recording. A slightly reduced string section was employed, along
with the necessary winds, brass and timpani. This had been a common
practice in Cleveland, where the orchestra became the Columbia Symphony
for many of Szell's concerto accompaniments.
The orchestra was not under any exclusive contract to any company at
this time. For years Decca had a first-refusal clause in their
contract, which explains why we recorded for DG, Columbia and Telarc as
well as Decca during the Maazel era and extending into Dohnányi's
tenure, later adding more companies (Teldec and Erato, along with one
recording for Philips). But none for EMI since Szell's final recordings
(du Pre's Lalo recording was a broadcast tape later issued by EMI).
Ron Whitaker
Paul Penna
The insert in the Cala CD gives as a reason for the designation of
"Members" of the NBC SO the fact that Stokowski "for financial reasons"
reduced the strings. I wonder how that squares with the fact that RCA
then went to the expense of issuing the recording in a fancy gate-fold
album with the Warhol art and everything? I suppose it could be argued
that the money saved went toward paying for the album, but why not just
go all-out for such a high-profile item?
jrs...@aol.com
Which was the Philips recording?
--Jeff
ron...@usa.net
The Schoenberg Piano Concerto with Uchida and Boulez.
Ron Whitaker
Dontait...@aol.com
Stokowski's other NBC Symphony LPs were also credited to "Members of"
--Beethoven 6th, Sibelius 2nd, the Suite from Menotti's Sebastian, and
the highlights from Saint-Saens' Samson et Dalila with Rise Stevens and
Peerce, and shorter things. One would probably have to see some
correspondence to know whether he did it willingly or not. What was
called "his Symphony Orchestra" from the late '40s on also had a
smaller string complement. He might have done it to save RCA some
money, because he was the ultimate master of making even a small string
ensemble sound richer and bigger than it was, or for some other reason.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
On Dec 29, 10:52 pm, Mark Melson <jmmelsonNOS...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I also find it curious that the front cover of LM-1894 makes no
> reference to the orchestra, and both the spine and the back of the
> jacket read "... Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra." One on-line
> Stokowski discography lists the recording date as October 1954, which
> is after NBC disbanded its symphony orchestra and even after many of
> the NBC Symphony musicians reorganized as the Symphony of the Air. Did
> RCA have the right to use the name "NBC Symphony" at all for this
> group of musicians?
They must have, because all of Stokowski's post-Toscanini-retirement
recordings with them were made in late 1954 and early '55. There was
also LM-1952, Mozart's Divertimento no. 11 and Musical Joke conducted
by Fritz Reiner, recorded in September 1954 and like the Stokowski
recordings described as with "Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra."
Don Tait
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
All the 1954-55 Stokowski / NBC mono LPs referred to by Mr Tait have
now been reissued on Cala, apart from the Menotti 'Sebastian' /
Prokofiev 'Romeo and Juliet' coupling. This had previously come out on
an RCA / BMG CD and was issued in true stereo. Although all these NBC
sessions were recorded in stereo nothing else from them has survived in
that form, apart from 7 minutes of the Beethoven 6th. Jack Pfeiffer
seems to imply in his notes for the "The Age of Living Stereo" CDs that
because Stokowski's stereo set-up was "unconventional" the recordings
couldn't be released. However, if what has survived is any guide
Pfeiffer made a big mistake: the Menotti / Prokofiev coupling sounds
just fine, and is beautifully rich and vivid and clear.
Matthew B. Tepper
in news:1167544112.3...@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
Thanks for the explanation. But if "reduced size" was all that it took in
order for there to be billing as "members of..." then why do we not see
this sort of thing in, say, recordings of Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms,
where the whole violin and viola sections get to take a break?
Matthew B. Tepper
news:1167581157.6...@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> jrs...@aol.com wrote:
>> ron...@usa.net wrote:
>> >
>> > The orchestra was not under any exclusive contract to any company at
>> > this time. For years Decca had a first-refusal clause in their
>> > contract, which explains why we recorded for DG, Columbia and Telarc
>> > as well as Decca during the Maazel era and extending into Dohnányi's
>> > tenure, later adding more companies (Teldec and Erato, along with one
>> > recording for Philips). But none for EMI since Szell's final
>> > recordings (du Pre's Lalo recording was a broadcast tape later issued
>> > by EMI).
>>
>> Which was the Philips recording?
>
> The Schoenberg Piano Concerto with Uchida and Boulez.
Interesting; I imagine a list could be made of artists who for some reason
made only *one* recording which was issued on the Philips label. This list
would also include:
Leonard Bernstein (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis with Concertbegouw)
Herbert von Karajan (Verdi's _Falstaff_)
Esa-Pekka Salonen (Bartok and Stravinsky VCs with Mullova and L.A. Phil)
Richard S. Sandmeyer
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote:
> ron...@usa.net appears to have caused the following letters to be typed in
> news:1167581157.6...@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> >> ron...@usa.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The orchestra was not under any exclusive contract to any company at
> >> > this time. For years Decca had a first-refusal clause in their
> >> > contract, which explains why we recorded for DG, Columbia and Telarc
> >> > as well as Decca during the Maazel era and extending into Dohnányi's
> >> > tenure, later adding more companies (Teldec and Erato, along with one
> >> > recording for Philips). But none for EMI since Szell's final
> >> > recordings (du Pre's Lalo recording was a broadcast tape later issued
> >> > by EMI).
> >>
> >> Which was the Philips recording?
> >
> > The Schoenberg Piano Concerto with Uchida and Boulez.
>
> Interesting; I imagine a list could be made of artists who for some reason
> made only *one* recording which was issued on the Philips label. This list
> would also include:
>
> Leonard Bernstein (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis with Concertbegouw)
>
> Herbert von Karajan (Verdi's _Falstaff_)
>
> Esa-Pekka Salonen (Bartok and Stravinsky VCs with Mullova and L.A. Phil)
My copy of Bernstein's recording of the Missa Solemnis with the
Concertgebouw is on DG, not Philips.
However, you still may be correct that he only made one recording for
Philips. Bernstein's recording of Tristan und Isolde with the BRSO is
the only example I can recall. Any others?
Also, I wasn't aware of a von Karajan recording of Falstaff on Philips,
but I don't claim to know all of his opera recordings. I do know he
recorded it for EMI and later for DG. Who was in the cast for the
Philips recording?
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in
> In article <Xns98AAB07A214...@207.217.125.201>,
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting; I imagine a list could be made of artists who for some
>> reason made only *one* recording which was issued on the Philips label.
>> This list would also include:
>>
>> Leonard Bernstein (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis with Concertbegouw)
>>
>> Herbert von Karajan (Verdi's _Falstaff_)
>>
>> Esa-Pekka Salonen (Bartok and Stravinsky VCs with Mullova and L.A.
>> Phil)
>
> My copy of Bernstein's recording of the Missa Solemnis with the
> Concertgebouw is on DG, not Philips.
>
> However, you still may be correct that he only made one recording for
> Philips. Bernstein's recording of Tristan und Isolde with the BRSO is
> the only example I can recall. Any others?
My sieve-like memory strikes again! You are correct. I was associating
the Concertgebouw with Philips, for some reason.
> Also, I wasn't aware of a von Karajan recording of Falstaff on Philips,
> but I don't claim to know all of his opera recordings. I do know he
> recorded it for EMI and later for DG. Who was in the cast for the
> Philips recording?
Karajan did his remake of _Falstaff_ around the same time that DGG had
contracted with Giulini to record his live performances in Los Angeles.
I've got vague memories of a contemporary reviewer who said that he'd hate
to have been the Polygram functionary who had to tell Karajan that his new
recording wasn't going to be on DGG.
ron...@usa.net
sections that are not required are only paid for two hours, versus the
three or four hours actually used. This would also spare the recording
company the stigma of using "Members of..." (not that I really believe
that was actually a reason). However, as soon as the work extends to
two or more sessions, the cost of paying non-participating musicians
the two-hour minimum for each session would start to be
cost-prohibitive.
I don't recall a "Members of The Cleveland Orchestra" issue since the
Kubelik Beethoven 8th even though companies certainly had several
opportunities to do so if they had so wished.
Ron Whitaker
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:52?pm, Mark Melson <jmmelsonNOS...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> > I also find it curious that the front cover of LM-1894 makes no
> > reference to the orchestra, and both the spine and the back of the
> > Stokowski discography lists the recording date as October 1954, which
> > is after NBC disbanded its symphony orchestra and even after many of
> > the NBC Symphony musicians reorganized as the Symphony of the Air. Did
> > RCA have the right to use the name "NBC Symphony" at all for this
> > group of musicians?
>
> They must have, because all of Stokowski's post-Toscanini-retirement
> recordings with them were made in late 1954 and early '55. There was
> also LM-1952, Mozart's Divertimento no. 11 and Musical Joke conducted
> by Fritz Reiner, recorded in September 1954 and like the Stokowski
> recordings described as with "Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra."
>
> Don Tait
Curiously, there's not a single mention of any of Stokowski's NBCSO
recordings (including those made on 78s in the 1940s) in any book on
the NBC Symphony and Toscanini, from R C March up to Mortimer Frank.
For these writers it's as if they never happened. Frank and others
could have revealed how it was that Stokowski began recording with
"Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra" in March 1954, before
Toscanini's last concert, at a time when Toscanini was expected to
complete his contract for the season rather than terminate it abruptly
the following month, and given the Old Man's antipathy towards
Stokowski.
However, the 1994 publication by UMI Dissertion Services of Donald Carl
Meyer's "NBC Symphony Orchestra" does at least acknowledge the
Stokowski recordings when he writes: "RCA still saw the marketing value
of the orchestra and was anxious to make use of it" ... Thus occurred
the series of sessions which concluded in February 1955, several months
after the musicans' own contracts had expired. Meyer does say that the
group which eventually called itself the "Symphony of the Air" was
"forbidden to call itself 'Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra' since
the NBC Network still had the name copyrighted."
Did anyone else apart from Reiner record with "Members of" ?... And
when was Cantelli's NBCSO recording of the Franck Symphony made ?
John_H...@msn.com
coupling with "Sebastian" on RCA Vic LM 1858 ever made it to cd.
Again, I never understand why the original coupling was dropped on the
Cala release (and I really like their reissues). Likewise, did the two
J Strauss Waltzes, Humperdinck, H & G Prelude, and Tchaikovsky: Eugene
O Polonaise on RCA LM 2042 "In a Lighter Vein" make it to cd as well?
I did Google the Gould and see that it is available with Mitropoulos in
an expensive NY Phil. commenmorative set (desirable - but too costly
for me). Hauser
John_H...@msn.com
available on an upcoming release and past release. Now won't someone
release some of the American Symphony rehearsals (I've got many of them
on open reel - they are excellent; dispel many Stoky myths). Hauser
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:1167642716....@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
> And when was Cantelli's NBCSO recording of the Franck Symphony made ?
6 April 1954 - two days after Toscanini's final concert.
Dontait...@aol.com
On Jan 1, 3:11 am, kerrison126-spar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Curiously, there's not a single mention of any of Stokowski's NBCSO
> recordings (including those made on 78s in the 1940s) in any book on
> the NBC Symphony and Toscanini, from R C March up to Mortimer Frank.
> For these writers it's as if they never happened. Frank and others
> could have revealed how it was that Stokowski began recording with
> "Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra" in March 1954, before
> Toscanini's last concert, at a time when Toscanini was expected to
> complete his contract for the season rather than terminate it abruptly
> the following month, and given the Old Man's antipathy towards
> Stokowski.
Marsh, Frank, and so on probably didn't mention the Stokowski/NBC SO
records because their books were about Toscanini. Frank's does concern
the orchestra as well, but its focus is on its work with Toscanini. I
don't recall that they say much or anything about Reiner's NBC SO
recordings before and after Toscanini's retirement either (Reiner made
some in January 1952) or the records the orchestra made with Golschmann
in concertos or Robert Russell Bennett in the first (mono) volume of
"Victory at Sea." B.H. Haggin did write about the 1940s 78s and how
Stokowski's acoustical modifications made 8-H sound better for
broadcasts and records.
It has always been my understanding that Toscanini fulfilled his
contract for the last season and that the last concert he did was the
last scheduled one. Can you advise where it's said that he terminated
his contract abruptly? Or that, as your message seems to imply, his
feelings about Stokowski might have influenced a decision to leave? As
is known, Toscanini had been told that his contract would not be
renewed after the 1953/4 season, partly because NBC wanted to disband
the orchestra and partly because of secret pressure from Toscanini's
family. His letter of resignation to David Sarnoff is dated some weeks
before the final concert.
> However, the 1994 publication by UMI Dissertion Services of Donald Carl
> Meyer's "NBC Symphony Orchestra" does at least acknowledge the
> Stokowski recordings when he writes: "RCA still saw the marketing value
> of the orchestra and was anxious to make use of it" ... Thus occurred
> the series of sessions which concluded in February 1955, several months
> after the musicans' own contracts had expired. Meyer does say that the
> group which eventually called itself the "Symphony of the Air" was
> "forbidden to call itself 'Members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra' since
> the NBC Network still had the name copyrighted."
>
> Did anyone else apart from Reiner record with "Members of" ?... And
> when was Cantelli's NBCSO recording of the Franck Symphony made ?
Volume I of "Victory at Sea," LM-1779, recorded around 1952, is
attributed to "Members of" conducted by Robert Russell Bennett. Apart
from that I only recall the records by Stokowski and Reiner. And Carl's
explanation of the use of "Members of" sounds authoritative.
Don Tait - Show quoted text -
ansermetniac
> His letter of resignation to David Sarnoff
and written by Sarnoff
Abbedd
Mark Melson
There's a wonderfully entertaining book called "Agitato" about the
attempts to keep the "Symphony of the Air" going after NBC pulled the
plug on Toscanini's NBC Symphony. It was written by a guy named, if I
recall correctly, Jerome Toobin, and Stokowski is one of the featured
characters in the narrative. I lent out my copy years ago and lost
track of it, but can recommend it highly to anyone who can find a
copy. As one who has been involved in symphony management for 25
years, I empathize with Toobin's tales of trying to keep the orchestra
afloat despite Stokowski's willfulness, fraudulent underwriters and
other intrigues.
Mark Melson
Dontait...@aol.com
On Jan 1, 7:10 pm, Mark Melson <jmmelsonNOS...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> There's a wonderfully entertaining book called "Agitato" about the
> attempts to keep the "Symphony of the Air" going after NBC pulled the
> plug on Toscanini's NBC Symphony. It was written by a guy named, if I
> recall correctly, Jerome Toobin, and Stokowski is one of the featured
> characters in the narrative. I lent out my copy years ago and lost
> track of it, but can recommend it highly to anyone who can find a
> copy. As one who has been involved in symphony management for 25
> years, I empathize with Toobin's tales of trying to keep the orchestra
> afloat despite Stokowski's willfulness, fraudulent underwriters and
> other intrigues.
>
> Mark Melson- Hide quoted text
Oh, that's a marvellous book! I hope you can get another copy. Yes,
it was Jerome Toobin. His account of Stokowski almost falling out of
the booth at a midnight NYC eatery at the sight of hookers is
priceless. It's worth it if only for his convoluted tale about how
Horowitz considered coming out of seclusion around 1958 to play Brahms
Concerto 2. Remember it? Horowitz and Wanda had decided upon the
Symphony of the Air since it was largely former NBC SO (and Toscanini)
members. First they wanted Reiner to conduct. He agreed. Then they
changed their minds. Toobin had to telephone Reiner with the news. He
said "I see" and slammed down the phone. Then they decided upon Bruno
Walter. He agreed ("what would I not do for Arturo Toscanini?") Then
they changed their minds again. Toobin had to call Walter, who was in
Chicago and answered the hotel phone. Toobin quoted Walter as saying
"Wanda Toscanini I always knew was stupid. Crazy I didn't know until
today." Then, of course, Horowitz never emerged to play the music.
A special book. Good luck getting another copy, and don't give up in
your search!
Don Tait
Dave Cook
> However, you still may be correct that he only made one recording for
> Philips. Bernstein's recording of Tristan und Isolde with the BRSO is
> the only example I can recall. Any others?
His Haydn Paukenmesse.
Dave Cook
gggg...@gmail.com
> E-mail from my inside source at Forte:
>
> > Two Cala releases arrived today, just (not quite) in time for
> > Christmas -- I've logged them into the web store, exclusive until late
> > January 2007 when they hit brick'n'mortar stores, at least what's
> > left with Tower deader than Toscanini...
>
> > Beethoven: Symphony No.6 in F Major "Pastoral", Op.68
> > with the Sounds of Nature (originally released as RCA Red Seal
> > LM 1830)
> > Liszt: Hungarian Rhapsodies Nos.1-3 (originally released as RCA Red
> > Seal LM 1878)
> > plus! Stokowski on Beethoven, the sounds of nature, and the genesis of
> > the Sixth Symphony
> > members of the NBC Symphony Orchestra
> > Leopold Stokowski
> > Cala CAA-545 (CACD0545)
> > http://www.shopforte.com/product_info.php?products_id=5887
> > ON SALE! $12.49 (reg. $15.99)
>
> > Respighi: The Ballad of the Gnomes, P124
> > Respighi: Trittico Botticelliano, P151
> > Respighi: Suite in G Major for Strings and Organ, P56
> > Respighi: Adagio con Variazione for Cello and Orchestra, P133
> > Leslie Pearson, cello
> > Alexander Baillie, cello
> > Philharmonia Orchestra
> > Geoffrey Simon, conductor
> > Cala SACD CAA-4028 (previously released on CD as CACD1028)
> > http://www.shopforte.com/product_info.php?products_id=5678
> > ON SALE! $17.49 (reg. $21.99)
>
> >
Recent Youtube upload:
Beethoven: Symphony No. 6 Stokowski / NBC S.O. 1954 - Restored