Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
WSJ: Traditional Thanksgiving editorial published annually since 1961
1,553 views
Skip to first unread message
Oscar
Nov 27, 2014, 3:23:12 PM11/27/14
to
The Desolate Wilderness
A chronicle of the Pilgrims' arrival at Plymouth, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton.
Here beginneth the chronicle of those memorable circumstances of the year 1620, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton, keeper of the records of Plymouth Colony, based on the account of William Bradford, sometime governor thereof:
So they left that goodly and pleasant city of Leyden, which had been their resting-place for above eleven years, but they knew that they were pilgrims and strangers here below, and looked not much on these things, but lifted up their eyes to Heaven, their dearest country, where God hath prepared for them a city (Heb. XI, 16), and therein quieted their spirits.
When they came to Delfs-Haven they found the ship and all things ready, and such of their friends as could not come with them followed after them, and sundry came from Amsterdam to see them shipt, and to take their leaves of them. One night was spent with little sleep with the most, but with friendly entertainment and Christian discourse, and other real expressions of true Christian love.
The next day they went on board, and their friends with them, where truly doleful was the sight of that sad and mournful parting, to hear what sighs and sobs and prayers did sound amongst them; what tears did gush from every eye, and pithy speeches pierced each other's heart, that sundry of the Dutch strangers that stood on the Key as spectators could not refrain from tears. But the tide (which stays for no man) calling them away, that were thus loath to depart, their Reverend Pastor, falling down on his knees, and they all with him, with watery cheeks commended them with the most fervent prayers unto the Lord and His blessing; and then with mutual embraces and many tears they took their leaves one of another, which proved to be the last leave to many of them.
Being now passed the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before them in expectations, they had now no friends to welcome them, no inns to entertain or refresh them, no houses, or much less towns, to repair unto to seek for succour; and for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of the country know them to be sharp and violent, subject to cruel and fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search unknown coasts.
Besides, what could they see but a hideous and desolate wilderness, full of wilde beasts and wilde men? and what multitudes of them there were, they then knew not: for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to Heaven) they could have but little solace or content in respect of any outward object; for summer being ended, all things stand in appearance with a weatherbeaten face, and the whole country, full of woods and thickets, represented a wild and savage hew.
If they looked behind them, there was a mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar or gulph to separate them from all the civil parts of the world.
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961.
A chronicle of the Pilgrims' arrival at Plymouth, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton.
Here beginneth the chronicle of those memorable circumstances of the year 1620, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton, keeper of the records of Plymouth Colony, based on the account of William Bradford, sometime governor thereof:
So they left that goodly and pleasant city of Leyden, which had been their resting-place for above eleven years, but they knew that they were pilgrims and strangers here below, and looked not much on these things, but lifted up their eyes to Heaven, their dearest country, where God hath prepared for them a city (Heb. XI, 16), and therein quieted their spirits.
When they came to Delfs-Haven they found the ship and all things ready, and such of their friends as could not come with them followed after them, and sundry came from Amsterdam to see them shipt, and to take their leaves of them. One night was spent with little sleep with the most, but with friendly entertainment and Christian discourse, and other real expressions of true Christian love.
The next day they went on board, and their friends with them, where truly doleful was the sight of that sad and mournful parting, to hear what sighs and sobs and prayers did sound amongst them; what tears did gush from every eye, and pithy speeches pierced each other's heart, that sundry of the Dutch strangers that stood on the Key as spectators could not refrain from tears. But the tide (which stays for no man) calling them away, that were thus loath to depart, their Reverend Pastor, falling down on his knees, and they all with him, with watery cheeks commended them with the most fervent prayers unto the Lord and His blessing; and then with mutual embraces and many tears they took their leaves one of another, which proved to be the last leave to many of them.
Being now passed the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before them in expectations, they had now no friends to welcome them, no inns to entertain or refresh them, no houses, or much less towns, to repair unto to seek for succour; and for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of the country know them to be sharp and violent, subject to cruel and fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search unknown coasts.
Besides, what could they see but a hideous and desolate wilderness, full of wilde beasts and wilde men? and what multitudes of them there were, they then knew not: for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to Heaven) they could have but little solace or content in respect of any outward object; for summer being ended, all things stand in appearance with a weatherbeaten face, and the whole country, full of woods and thickets, represented a wild and savage hew.
If they looked behind them, there was a mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar or gulph to separate them from all the civil parts of the world.
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961.
Gerard
Nov 27, 2014, 4:15:42 PM11/27/14
to
"Oscar" wrote in message
news:e20ff1f8-368a-4a22...@googlegroups.com...
[OT stuff snipped]
Herman
Nov 28, 2014, 1:54:58 AM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:39:24 AM UTC+1, whiskynsplash wrote:
> Came over on the Mayflower, did you Oskie?
>
> Try not to flood this Classical music recordings forum with your interminable posts on your political obsessions, you clueless cunt.
you skipped his relentless racist jabs - all of course under the cover of "sarcasm" and "humor". In some ways this guy is not interested in politics at all. If Obama were a republican prez, Oscar'd be loony left.
> Came over on the Mayflower, did you Oskie?
>
> Try not to flood this Classical music recordings forum with your interminable posts on your political obsessions, you clueless cunt.
you skipped his relentless racist jabs - all of course under the cover of "sarcasm" and "humor". In some ways this guy is not interested in politics at all. If Obama were a republican prez, Oscar'd be loony left.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 3:29:17 AM11/28/14
to
I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
"...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could build a
$150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
By the way, you should see the cover of this week's "New Yorker" (December 1).
http://www.newyorker.com
"...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could build a
$150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
By the way, you should see the cover of this week's "New Yorker" (December 1).
http://www.newyorker.com
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 8:35:59 AM11/28/14
to
entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
jobs and good products at good prices.
How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does Walmart
pay lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many of
Walmart's employees are forced to work there?
Just wondering.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
Herman
Nov 28, 2014, 9:30:26 AM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:35:59 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
It's gotta be great living in Cloud Cuckooland
>
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
Herman
Nov 28, 2014, 9:37:14 AM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:35:59 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
Obviously you think it's great that Walmart destroyed countless small businesses, where workers made a better living. customers got better service, and suppliers weren't forced to supply their goods for extortionate low precies, because that's the kind of capitalism that creates a couple of billionaires and destroys, and now I'm going to use one of your cherished phrases, a whole "way of life" for millions of people who used to have much better jobs than at Walmart of Target.
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 9:56:55 AM11/28/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:EoednW45sOGh5-XJ...@supernews.com...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1346470/-If-Walmart-wants-to-hold-a-food-drive-for-its-needy-workers-here-s-a-modest-proposal?detail=email
There is no other word for this but "obscene".
Walmart has been running ads showing how they underwrite education for their
employees, saying "this is what we're all about". Except...
Walmart is trying to make us believe it's like a burger joint, providing
low-paying jobs for unskilled people as a step-up to something better. This,
of course, overlooks the reality of our economy.
Several months ago, there were stories about a New England grocery chain that
had the lowest prices, the highest wages, and the happiest customers &
employees. It had been founded by two brothers, one of whom wanted to increase
profits by cutting wages. There was a knock-down drag-out fight between them,
with the bad brother (do I need to say which one that was?) being evicted.
If anyone can point me to these stories (I've lost the reference), it would be
appreciated.
news:EoednW45sOGh5-XJ...@supernews.com...
On 11/28/2014 3:29 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepreneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives
> them jobs and good products at good prices.
> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does Walmart pay
> lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many of Walmart's
> employees are forced to work there? Just wondering.
Cloud Cuckoo Land is right.
> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does Walmart pay
> lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many of Walmart's
> employees are forced to work there? Just wondering.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1346470/-If-Walmart-wants-to-hold-a-food-drive-for-its-needy-workers-here-s-a-modest-proposal?detail=email
There is no other word for this but "obscene".
Walmart has been running ads showing how they underwrite education for their
employees, saying "this is what we're all about". Except...
Walmart is trying to make us believe it's like a burger joint, providing
low-paying jobs for unskilled people as a step-up to something better. This,
of course, overlooks the reality of our economy.
Several months ago, there were stories about a New England grocery chain that
had the lowest prices, the highest wages, and the happiest customers &
employees. It had been founded by two brothers, one of whom wanted to increase
profits by cutting wages. There was a knock-down drag-out fight between them,
with the bad brother (do I need to say which one that was?) being evicted.
If anyone can point me to these stories (I've lost the reference), it would be
appreciated.
graham
Nov 28, 2014, 10:19:58 AM11/28/14
to
On 28/11/2014 6:35 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/28/2014 3:29 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>>
>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
>>
>> By the way, you should see the cover of this week's "New Yorker"
>> (December 1).
>>
>> http://www.newyorker.com
>
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does Walmart
> pay lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many of
> Walmart's employees are forced to work there?
>
> Just wondering.
>
ISTR a news item about a food bank being set up for Walmart employees at
> On 11/28/2014 3:29 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>>
>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
>>
>> By the way, you should see the cover of this week's "New Yorker"
>> (December 1).
>>
>> http://www.newyorker.com
>
> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> jobs and good products at good prices.
>
> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does Walmart
> pay lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many of
> Walmart's employees are forced to work there?
>
> Just wondering.
>
one branch.
Graham
JohnGavin
Nov 28, 2014, 10:46:01 AM11/28/14
to
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"-The six Waltons on Forbes' list of wealthiest Americans have a net worth of $144.7 billion. This fiscal year three Waltons--Rob, Jim, and Alice (and the various entities that they control)--will receive an estimated $3.1 billion in Walmart dividends from their majority stake in the company."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walmart Health Insurance Could Leave A Really Sick Worker Broke
Comment Now Follow Comments
Walmart made news recently when it eliminated healthcare insurance for its temporary workers. Only 30,000 out of approximately 1.4 million U.S. employees were affected, according to the company, because only that many part-time workers were receiving insurance benefits.
However, details about the insurance programs provided by Walmart suggest that a bigger story has been overlooked. Even many thousands of full-time workers employed by the company could find that a single serious illness or hospitalization could break them financially with deductibles and out-of-pocket expenses high enough to consume much of a year's earnings.
"Healthcare costs have increased each year and Walmart has worked hard to avoid passing on costs to our associates," Walmart spokesperson Randy Hargrove told me, an observation that would be of no surprise to anyone running a business. To help contain costs, the company will stop offering healthcare coverage to 30,000 employees who averaged fewer than 30 hours a week over the period from October 5, 2013 to October 5, 2014.
Walmart pharmacy worker
Walmart has told me in the past that approximately 40 percent of the company is part-time, which the company defines as fewer than 34 hours of work a week. According to Hargrove, many part-time employees may have been on a spouse's or parents' insurance plan, and so had not taken advantage of the coverage. In addition, there is the question of whether turnover and new hires would mean thousands of part-time workers brought on over the last year would not have officially been eligible, and so not count as part of the 30,000 losing coverage.
But there is a bigger problem that the particulars of the most popular plans at the company might leave people in financial disaster should the worst happen. According to Hargrove, the "most popular and lowest [cost]" plan is currently $18.40 for individual coverage every two week pay period. The amount will rise to $21.90 starting in January.
There is a $2750 deductible outside of preventative care mandated by the Affordable Care Act. After the deductible, the plan covers 80 percent of costs. The money employees have to pay themselves has an out-of-pocket annual maximum of $5,000. There is a minimum $250 health reimbursement that Walmart offers.
At issue is how much a seriously ill employee could face in expenses in a year. Let's work the numbers. Say someone lands in the hospital and faces a $30,000 bill. That amount is hardly unrealistic, given that in 2010, according to the federal government, the average hospital stay for all ages was $9,700. For adults in the 18 to 64 year range, the amount ran between $7,200 and $12,100. Recognize that those average costs are calculated across all patients, whether they face the full amount hospitals bill or the reduced sums that insurers often negotiate.
First the Walmart employee would face the $2,750 deductible, less the $250 reimbursement, or $2,500. That leaves $27,500, 20 percent of which is $5,500. Walmart's insurance would require the employee to pay $5,000.
An employee in for an extended stay or possibly an operation now faces bills of $7,500. That may be affordable for employees who make higher salaries, but it isn't for the bulk of Walmart workers. According to the company's corporate website, the average full-time employee makes $12.92 an hour. Call it $13, remembering that part-time employees make less, according to figures the company has provided me in the past.
At $13 an hour, even with a 40 hour week and 52 weeks of work a year, the person grosses $27,040 before taxes. Suddenly they might face a medical debt of 28 percent of that income.
The problem isn't unique to Walmart. In fact, according to consulting company Mercer, Walmart has been among the last to cut part-time insurance coverage. Many retailers offer even thinner coverage.
Unfortunately, the high deductible options that a Walmart, other employer, or any insurer on the government-run healthcare insurance exchanges offer attract people who may not be able to afford the realities of coverage under serious illness. It's one of the reasons that, according to a Bankrate.com survey, 41 percent of people who make less than $30,000 have medical debts that top their emergency savings.
The low monthly rates are compelling to people who are unsure that they could afford more. Many don't recognize the potential risk they put themselves into, not that they could necessarily afford better coverage anyway.
It's another example of how income inequality operates throughout the country's economic systems. As the old Billie Holiday song lyrics go, "Them that's got shall have; them that's not shall lose.
Image: courtesy of Walmart
wkasimer
Nov 28, 2014, 11:28:58 AM11/28/14
to
Google "demoulas market basket"
Herman
Nov 28, 2014, 12:00:42 PM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 4:46:01 PM UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> one can only conclude that you justify greed to the extreme:
>
well, what else is new?
>
> one can only conclude that you justify greed to the extreme:
>
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 12:36:12 PM11/28/14
to
"wkasimer" wrote in message
news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
> Google "demoulas market basket"
THANK YOU!
There are multiple articles about Market Basket, and I urge everyone here --
especially the conservatives -- to browse them. Market Basket is a successful
company run not just to make money, but to provide good jobs and a good deal
for customers. It couldn't be further from the vicious capitalism that Walmart
practices.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/08/arthur_t_demoulas_to_market_basket_workers_you_are_simply_the
news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
> Google "demoulas market basket"
THANK YOU!
There are multiple articles about Market Basket, and I urge everyone here --
especially the conservatives -- to browse them. Market Basket is a successful
company run not just to make money, but to provide good jobs and a good deal
for customers. It couldn't be further from the vicious capitalism that Walmart
practices.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/08/arthur_t_demoulas_to_market_basket_workers_you_are_simply_the
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 12:43:07 PM11/28/14
to
On 11/28/2014 9:56 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:EoednW45sOGh5-XJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 3:29 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
>
>> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
>> entrepreneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives
>> them jobs and good products at good prices.
>
>> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
>> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does
>> Walmart pay lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many
>> of Walmart's employees are forced to work there? Just wondering.
>
> Cloud Cuckoo Land is right.
>
In other words, you choose not to answer any of the questions.
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:EoednW45sOGh5-XJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 3:29 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> I can just imagine the Waltons at Thanksgiving...
>>> "...and thank You, dear Lord, for founding a country in which we could
>>> build a $150B fortune on the labor of employees living in near-poverty."
>
>> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
>> entrepreneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives
>> them jobs and good products at good prices.
>
>> How many of Walmart's employees live in "near poverty?" Of those, how
>> many are young people in their first job, with few skills? Does
>> Walmart pay lower wages to its employees than, say, Target? How many
>> of Walmart's employees are forced to work there? Just wondering.
>
> Cloud Cuckoo Land is right.
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1346470/-If-Walmart-wants-to-hold-a-food-drive-for-its-needy-workers-here-s-a-modest-proposal?detail=email
>
>
> There is no other word for this but "obscene".
>
> Walmart has been running ads showing how they underwrite education for
> their employees, saying "this is what we're all about". Except...
>
> Walmart is trying to make us believe it's like a burger joint, providing
> low-paying jobs for unskilled people as a step-up to something better.
> This, of course, overlooks the reality of our economy.
>
different than one at McDonald's? My first job was unloading empty beer
kegs from a semi-truck. I did not expect that to be a entryway into a
career into management. I expected to earn a few buck while I was going
to school.
> Several months ago, there were stories about a New England grocery chain
> that had the lowest prices, the highest wages, and the happiest
> customers & employees.
wages (by what, is 50% enough?) and thereby increase profits and world
happiness.
It had been founded by two brothers, one of whom
> wanted to increase profits by cutting wages. There was a knock-down
> drag-out fight between them, with the bad brother (do I need to say
> which one that was?) being evicted.
>
> If anyone can point me to these stories (I've lost the reference), it
> would be appreciated.
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 12:43:46 PM11/28/14
to
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 12:51:10 PM11/28/14
to
of stuff and employs a really, really lot of people. Therefore, it
generates a really, really lot of income for its owners, so they are
really, really wealthy.
especially retailers? If it is similar, then articles such as this,
which do not consider that question, are simply targeting (no pun
intended) Walmart unfairly. If you want to argue for universal health
care then do so directly.
graham
Nov 28, 2014, 12:53:02 PM11/28/14
to
Graham
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 1:17:00 PM11/28/14
to
operate a business that way, fine, good for them. Nothing wrong with it.
Is your point that everyone else SHOULD operate businesses that way?
Apparently most business operators don't agree. Go ahead and try to
convince them, though I suggest some venue other than RMCR would be more
effective. Or perhaps you want to *force* businesses to operate as you
think they should? Then you ought to run for office, or better yet
become king of someplace where you can direct the economy to your
heart's content.
Otherwise, you just whistling in the wind. Again.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 1:39:18 PM11/28/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:c-idnfjhb7KEIeXJ...@supernews.com...
On 11/28/2014 12:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "wkasimer" wrote in message
> news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
> "wkasimer" wrote in message
> news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
> I will look at it, but what's the point?
If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
I just sent e-mail to Stan Lee and an actor acquaintance, suggesting the
commercials featuring superheroes be used to convince people that elections
for Federal should be wholly funded by the government. This will take
(probably) years, but if you convince enough people, society changes.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 1:41:01 PM11/28/14
to
I think it would be fair to sum up Frank Berger's philosophy (and that of most
conservatives) in this sentence:
"Anyone should be free to do as they wish without concern for the welfare of
anyone except themselves."
conservatives) in this sentence:
"Anyone should be free to do as they wish without concern for the welfare of
anyone except themselves."
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 1:43:05 PM11/28/14
to
One of your problems, Frank, is that you constantly question how one company's
policies and practices compare/contrast with other companies'.
Who cares? Being in the majority doesn't you make you right.
policies and practices compare/contrast with other companies'.
Who cares? Being in the majority doesn't you make you right.
Herman
Nov 28, 2014, 2:38:38 PM11/28/14
to
Lionel Tacchini
Nov 28, 2014, 3:04:52 PM11/28/14
to
On 28.11.2014 18:43, Frank Berger wrote:
> Which means, of course, that all businesses should immediately increase
> wages (by what, is 50% enough?) and thereby increase profits and world
> happiness.
Let's just make everything louder than everything else.
> Which means, of course, that all businesses should immediately increase
> wages (by what, is 50% enough?) and thereby increase profits and world
> happiness.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Lionel Tacchini
Nov 28, 2014, 3:11:39 PM11/28/14
to
On 28.11.2014 18:51, Frank Berger wrote:
> The Walmart chain is really, really big. It sells a really, really lot
> of stuff and employs a really, really lot of people. Therefore, it
> generates a really, really lot of income for its owners, so they are
> really, really wealthy.
Just thought I'd fix the subject line.
> The Walmart chain is really, really big. It sells a really, really lot
> of stuff and employs a really, really lot of people. Therefore, it
> generates a really, really lot of income for its owners, so they are
> really, really wealthy.
--
Lionel Tacchini
coppinsuk
Nov 28, 2014, 3:25:27 PM11/28/14
to
THIS THREAD IS IRRELEVANT TO "recorded classical music"!!!
What idiots!
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 4:01:52 PM11/28/14
to
"Lionel Tacchini" wrote in message news:m5akh1$pm5$1...@gwaiyur.mb-net.net...
Yes! Let's raise everyone's wages all the way up to 11!
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 4:12:46 PM11/28/14
to
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2014, 4:13:29 PM11/28/14
to
On 11/28/2014 1:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:c-idnfjhb7KEIeXJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 12:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "wkasimer" wrote in message
>> news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
>
>> I will look at it, but what's the point?
>
> If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
>
Good luck with that.
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:c-idnfjhb7KEIeXJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 12:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "wkasimer" wrote in message
>> news:e50d6843-64bb-4a0f...@googlegroups.com...
>
>> I will look at it, but what's the point?
>
> If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
>
> I just sent e-mail to Stan Lee and an actor acquaintance, suggesting the
> commercials featuring superheroes be used to convince people that
> elections for Federal should be wholly funded by the government. This
> will take (probably) years, but if you convince enough people, society
> changes.
John Thomas
Nov 28, 2014, 4:37:09 PM11/28/14
to
(Just kidding, Frank. I know you wouldn't shop there, especially in Baltimore. )
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 4:51:21 PM11/28/14
to
>> If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
> Good luck with that.
So we're supposed to sit around and wait for things to improve?
> Good luck with that.
John Thomas
Nov 28, 2014, 4:55:55 PM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 12:25:27 PM UTC-8, coppinsuk wrote:
> Here we go - nothing has changed since I last came here a few years ago and the reason I stopped visiting this forum.
>
> THIS THREAD IS IRRELEVANT TO "recorded classical music"!!!
>
> What idiots!
That's why they're supposed to be labeled "OT," so you can ignore them if you choose. Or did you see the title "WSJ: Traditional Thanksgiving editorial published annually since 1961" and start reading because you thought it was about recorded classical music?
> Here we go - nothing has changed since I last came here a few years ago and the reason I stopped visiting this forum.
>
> THIS THREAD IS IRRELEVANT TO "recorded classical music"!!!
>
> What idiots!
Gerard
Nov 28, 2014, 5:14:42 PM11/28/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
On 11/28/2014 1:40 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> I think it would be fair to sum up Frank Berger's philosophy (and that
> of most conservatives) in this sentence:
>
> "Anyone should be free to do as they wish without concern for the
> welfare of anyone except themselves."
Completely wrong. Ridiculous. Insulting.
Wrong. He is completely right.
Gerard
Nov 28, 2014, 5:18:42 PM11/28/14
to
"John Thomas" wrote in message
news:ca77f26c-e827-4d94...@googlegroups.com...
Nevertheless he's right.
Most posts here are OT, more than 70%.
Just usenet pollution.
Jim
Nov 28, 2014, 7:15:08 PM11/28/14
to
What is an entry-level job? I'm a college graduate, back 65 years ago
when that was pretty selective. My daughter has a Master's degree.
Should we be happy with a job stocking shelves or working at McDonalds?
when that was pretty selective. My daughter has a Master's degree.
Should we be happy with a job stocking shelves or working at McDonalds?
William Sommerwerck
Nov 28, 2014, 7:36:22 PM11/28/14
to
"Jim" wrote in message
news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
> What is an entry-level job? I'm a college graduate, back 65 years ago
> when that was pretty selective. My daughter has a Master's degree.
> Should we be happy with a job stocking shelves or working at McDonalds?
In this context, it means "any" job.
If someone isn't headed for college, why shouldn't they be able to support
themselves flipping hamburgers?
About a year ago, McDonald's raised its prices quite a bit (and all the other
FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman in Subway
whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
> What is an entry-level job? I'm a college graduate, back 65 years ago
> when that was pretty selective. My daughter has a Master's degree.
> Should we be happy with a job stocking shelves or working at McDonalds?
If someone isn't headed for college, why shouldn't they be able to support
themselves flipping hamburgers?
About a year ago, McDonald's raised its prices quite a bit (and all the other
FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman in Subway
whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
Jim
Nov 28, 2014, 8:09:07 PM11/28/14
to
So let's limit this discussion to people who have only finished high
school.
In article <m5b4dk$qin$1...@dont-email.me>, grizzle...@comcast.net
says...
school.
In article <m5b4dk$qin$1...@dont-email.me>, grizzle...@comcast.net
says...
Lionel Tacchini
Nov 29, 2014, 3:01:13 AM11/29/14
to
On 29.11.2014 02:09, Jim wrote:
> So let's limit this discussion …
Has such a proposal ever worked in a public forum?
--
Lionel Tacchini
> So let's limit this discussion …
Has such a proposal ever worked in a public forum?
--
Lionel Tacchini
Herman
Nov 29, 2014, 3:51:25 AM11/29/14
to
I guess Berger has flagged this topic for abuse, as is his wont.
Herman
Nov 29, 2014, 4:16:05 AM11/29/14
to
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:51:25 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> I guess Berger has flagged this topic for abuse, as is his wont.
Just as he likes to advise people to killfile posters who don't agree with his views.
> I guess Berger has flagged this topic for abuse, as is his wont.
Frank Berger
Nov 29, 2014, 7:09:00 PM11/29/14
to
policies are typical, then focusing on them alone is unfair.
Frank Berger
Nov 29, 2014, 7:16:59 PM11/29/14
to
Frank Berger
Nov 29, 2014, 7:19:04 PM11/29/14
to
a couple of times a month.
Frank Berger
Nov 29, 2014, 7:19:58 PM11/29/14
to
think so.
Frank Berger
Nov 29, 2014, 7:29:54 PM11/29/14
to
inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that.
If costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they have
to raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a wage
increase wouldn't be expected. I can't think of a more competitive
market than fast food.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 30, 2014, 10:43:01 AM11/30/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:zoCdndnuRPWE_efJ...@supernews.com...
On 11/28/2014 1:42 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> One of your problems, Frank, is that you constantly question how
>> one company's policies and practices compare/contrast with other
>> companies'. Who cares? Being in the majority doesn't you make
>> you right.
> That's not a problem. That's analytical thinking. If Walmart's policies are
> typical, then focusing on them alone is unfair.
Agreed (pun intended). It's just hat Walmart is an easy target. (No joke
>> One of your problems, Frank, is that you constantly question how
>> one company's policies and practices compare/contrast with other
>> companies'. Who cares? Being in the majority doesn't you make
>> you right.
> That's not a problem. That's analytical thinking. If Walmart's policies are
> typical, then focusing on them alone is unfair.
intended.)
One of the problems with market economies is the assumption that actions made
in "enlightened self-interest" necessarily produce good results. This is true
most of the time -- but not always.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 30, 2014, 10:45:54 AM11/30/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:zoCdndTuRPUx_-fJ...@supernews.com...
On 11/28/2014 4:51 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>>> If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
>>> Good luck with that.
>> So we're supposed to sit around and wait for things to improve?
> Has your complaining about human nature in RMCR improved it any?
> Didn't think so.
I'm working on it, with a specific project. I will keep this group posted.
>>>> If you change society's point of view, you start changing society.
>>> Good luck with that.
>> So we're supposed to sit around and wait for things to improve?
> Has your complaining about human nature in RMCR improved it any?
> Didn't think so.
You and Pope would get along fine -- whatever is, is for the best.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 30, 2014, 10:49:00 AM11/30/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:e--dnQPN49di-efJ...@supernews.com...
On 11/28/2014 7:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Jim" wrote in message
> news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
> "Jim" wrote in message
> news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
>> About a year ago, McDonald's raised its prices quite a bit (and all the
>> other FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman
>> in Subway whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that. If
> costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they have to
> raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a wage increase
> wouldn't be expected.
I don't see a connection between those things, as a rise in beef prices is a
>> other FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman
>> in Subway whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that. If
> costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they have to
> raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a wage increase
> wouldn't be expected.
form of inflation.
Regardless, it appears that McDonald's raised prices simply for the sake of
making more money.
> I can't think of a more competitive market than fast food.
William Sommerwerck
Nov 30, 2014, 10:55:27 AM11/30/14
to
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message news:m5fe8q$eos$1...@dont-email.me...
> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that. If
> costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they have to
> raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a wage increase
> wouldn't be expected.
I don't see a connection between those things, as a rise in beef prices is a
form of inflation.
Whoops -- I meant to say " disconnect".
> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that. If
> costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they have to
> raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a wage increase
> wouldn't be expected.
I don't see a connection between those things, as a rise in beef prices is a
form of inflation.
Frank Berger
Nov 30, 2014, 11:42:03 AM11/30/14
to
Frank Berger
Nov 30, 2014, 11:44:47 AM11/30/14
to
On 11/30/2014 10:48 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:e--dnQPN49di-efJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 7:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Jim" wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
>
>>> About a year ago, McDonald's raised its prices quite a bit (and all the
>>> other FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman
>>> in Subway whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
>
>> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
>> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that.
>> If costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they
>> have to raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a
>> wage increase wouldn't be expected.
>
> I don't see a connection between those things, as a rise in beef prices
> is a form of inflation.
>
No it isn't.
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:e--dnQPN49di-efJ...@supernews.com...
> On 11/28/2014 7:36 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Jim" wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com...
>
>>> About a year ago, McDonald's raised its prices quite a bit (and all the
>>> other FF joints followed), but without increasing wages. I asked a woman
>>> in Subway whether she was getting more, and she made a dismissive noise.
>
>> It's important to know *why* prices increased. If due to just general
>> inflation, wages will keep up. There's lots of research showing that.
>> If costs have increased, like due to higher beef prices, then they
>> have to raise prices to cover the increased costs. In that case a
>> wage increase wouldn't be expected.
>
> I don't see a connection between those things, as a rise in beef prices
> is a form of inflation.
>
> Regardless, it appears that McDonald's raised prices simply for the sake
> of making more money.
>
always make more money by raising prices (you can't)?
>
>> I can't think of a more competitive market than fast food.
>
> Then why did the other chains follow?
E.G. beef prices going up, perhaps due to a feed shortage. Or whatever.
Frank Berger
Nov 30, 2014, 11:45:53 AM11/30/14
to
inflation. A continuing rise in the general price level is inflation,
caused only by excess money creation.
O
Dec 1, 2014, 4:02:08 PM12/1/14
to
In article <MPG.2ee2aff22...@news.powerusenet.com>, Jim
Happy? No. But I think it's a useful enough learning experience that
everyone should have an entry-level job at least once in their lives.
-Owen, I had 3 through college, one at McDonalds, and that was the
best one.
everyone should have an entry-level job at least once in their lives.
-Owen, I had 3 through college, one at McDonalds, and that was the
best one.
John Thomas
Dec 4, 2014, 7:47:02 PM12/4/14
to
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:19:04 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/28/2014 4:37 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> > On Friday, November 28, 2014 6:30:26 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> >> On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:35:59 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> >>> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> >>> jobs and good products at good prices.
> >>>
> >> It's gotta be great living in Cloud Cuckooland
> >
> > Well, Frank didn't say "good" jobs, just jobs, and mass produced Chinese imports at rock bottom prices. Frank always remembers to tip them a dime when he shops there.
> >
> > (Just kidding, Frank. I know you wouldn't shop there, especially in Baltimore. )
> >
>
> Don't know what that means. I shop at Walmart in Cockeysville at least
> a couple of times a month.
Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
> On 11/28/2014 4:37 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> > On Friday, November 28, 2014 6:30:26 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> >> On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:35:59 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Walmart's employees and customers should be thanking God for the
> >>> entrepeneurship of the Walmart family and organization that gives them
> >>> jobs and good products at good prices.
> >>>
> >> It's gotta be great living in Cloud Cuckooland
> >
> > Well, Frank didn't say "good" jobs, just jobs, and mass produced Chinese imports at rock bottom prices. Frank always remembers to tip them a dime when he shops there.
> >
> > (Just kidding, Frank. I know you wouldn't shop there, especially in Baltimore. )
> >
>
> Don't know what that means. I shop at Walmart in Cockeysville at least
> a couple of times a month.
Frank Berger
Dec 4, 2014, 8:30:05 PM12/4/14
to
John Thomas
Dec 4, 2014, 11:11:59 PM12/4/14
to
Lionel Tacchini
Dec 5, 2014, 2:12:39 AM12/5/14
to
On 05.12.2014 05:11, John Thomas wrote:
>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
>> >
>> >Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1 against.
>> >
> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
There's obviously no discussing with people who take guesses as logic
>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
>> >
>> >Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1 against.
>> >
> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
and build their own world picture with them.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Frank Berger
Dec 5, 2014, 8:45:22 AM12/5/14
to
John Thomas
Dec 5, 2014, 10:29:52 AM12/5/14
to
Frank Berger
Dec 5, 2014, 12:31:56 PM12/5/14
to
know nothing about a person the odds are 99-1 against his being in the
1%. It's not rocket science. It's simple probability.
John Thomas
Dec 5, 2014, 3:06:48 PM12/5/14
to
On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:31:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/5/2014 10:29 AM, John Thomas wrote:
> > On Friday, December 5, 2014 5:45:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/4/2014 11:11 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
> >
> >>>> Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1 against.
> >
> >>> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
> >
> >> Your answer makes no sense, but never mind.
> >>
> > As a response to a claim that itself made no sense what could you expect?
> >
>
>
> Geez. You criticized my logic. I didn't really exercise any. If you
> know nothing about a person the odds are 99-1 against his being in the
> 1%. It's not rocket science. It's simple probability.
>
Yes, Frank, but when I looked up David Koch I was able to determine easily that he was a member of the 1% so probability didn't apply. But when I looked you up I couldn't find any sign of you among the 353 "Frank Bergers", suggesting that you had so carefully hidden your identity that you must be even wealthier and more influential even than Koch and likely to be on the Board of Directors of The Illuminati. So as you can see my logic was infallible.,
> On 12/5/2014 10:29 AM, John Thomas wrote:
> > On Friday, December 5, 2014 5:45:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/4/2014 11:11 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
> >
> >>>> Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1 against.
> >
> >>> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
> >
> >> Your answer makes no sense, but never mind.
> >>
> > As a response to a claim that itself made no sense what could you expect?
> >
>
>
> Geez. You criticized my logic. I didn't really exercise any. If you
> know nothing about a person the odds are 99-1 against his being in the
> 1%. It's not rocket science. It's simple probability.
>
Frank Berger
Dec 5, 2014, 4:09:20 PM12/5/14
to
On 12/5/2014 3:06 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:31:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/5/2014 10:29 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 5, 2014 5:45:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 12/4/2014 11:11 PM, John Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
>>>
>>>>>> Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1
>>>>>> against.
>>>
>>>>> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
>>>
>>>> Your answer makes no sense, but never mind.
>>>>
>>> As a response to a claim that itself made no sense what could you
>>> expect?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Geez. You criticized my logic. I didn't really exercise any. If
>> you know nothing about a person the odds are 99-1 against his being
>> in the 1%. It's not rocket science. It's simple probability.
>>
> Yes, Frank, but when I looked up David Koch I was able to determine
> easily that he was a member of the 1% so probability didn't apply.
The remark about the odds applied to me not David Koch.
> On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:31:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 12/5/2014 10:29 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 5, 2014 5:45:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 12/4/2014 11:11 PM, John Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, Frank. I thought you were one of the 1%.
>>>
>>>>>> Why would you have thought that? The odds were 99-1
>>>>>> against.
>>>
>>>>> By your logic that also disqualifies David Koch.
>>>
>>>> Your answer makes no sense, but never mind.
>>>>
>>> As a response to a claim that itself made no sense what could you
>>> expect?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Geez. You criticized my logic. I didn't really exercise any. If
>> you know nothing about a person the odds are 99-1 against his being
>> in the 1%. It's not rocket science. It's simple probability.
>>
> Yes, Frank, but when I looked up David Koch I was able to determine
> easily that he was a member of the 1% so probability didn't apply.
> But when I looked you up I couldn't find any sign of you among the
> 353 "Frank Bergers", suggesting that you had so carefully hidden your
> identity that you must be even wealthier and more influential even
> than Koch and likely to be on the Board of Directors of The
> Illuminati. So as you can see my logic was infallible.,
>
John Thomas
Dec 5, 2014, 8:28:54 PM12/5/14
to
Oscar
Dec 5, 2014, 8:53:29 PM12/5/14
to
John, why haven't you posted anything about the huge drop in gasoline prices over the last six months? Oil prices down over 40 percent! That's reason for thanksgiving, wouldn't you say? I mean, I remember 6-7 years ago when leading Dems, such as Californias own Nancy Pelosi, were screaming for the heads of all those evil white men of Big Oil from the House floor. And why have those darned petrol cartels allowed this bottoming-out to happen? Easily the largest stimulus package for the average American household in the last 6 years. Thanks, Chevron! Thanks, Mobil! Thanks, BP! Thanks, Shell!
(No thanks, Solyndra.)
Wall Street Journal editorial, December 4, 2014
<< 'Peak Oil' Debunked, Again
The world relearns that supply responds to necessity and price.
It has been 216 years since Thomas Malthus gave birth to the idea that mankind's appetite for natural resources would outstrip nature's capacity to supply them. There have since been regular warnings that the world is running out of soybeans, helium, chocolate, tunsgsten, you name it--and that population growth has become unsustainable. The warnings create a political or social panic for a while, only to be proved wrong.
The latest reckoning with reality is the end of the obsession with "peak oil," which for years had serious people proclaiming that we were entering an era of permanent fossil fuels scarcity. It didn't work out that way.
That's a central lesson from this year's dramatic fall in the price of oil, which reached $69.49 a barrel of Brent crude on Thursday from a June high of $112.12. As recently as early November, when oil hovered at $80, OPEC officials warned they would intervene to hold the price at $70. But Saudi officials conspicuously refused to support an output cut at last week's OPEC meeting, and Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi has made clear that he'd be comfortable with lower prices.
The short-term Saudi calculation is to drive oil prices down to squeeze their geopolitical adversaries and higher-cost producers. That goes especially for their adversaries across the Persian Gulf in Iran, which depends on oil exports for over 40% of its revenues, and where the regime had designed its budget based on $100 oil.
The Saudis also hope to slow the explosive growth of U.S. production, which, thanks to the tapping of domestic shale resources through the combination of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing, has risen to some nine million barrels a day from five million in 2008. By some estimates, the price of oil needs to be as high as $90 a barrel for oil extracted from "tight" deposits such as shale, though oil market research firm IHS believes most tight oil wells have a break-even cost of between $50 and $69 dollars a barrel.
But even if the Saudi move slows U.S. drilling, the International Energy Agency forecasts that U.S. production will still surpass Saudi Arabia's output of 9.7 million barrels a day, and overtake Russia's 10.3 million, perhaps sometime next year. This would make America the world's largest oil producer, which it was from the dawn of the oil age through 1974. Thanks to the fracking boom, the U.S. surpassed Russia as the world's largest natural-gas producer in 2013.
All this is a useful reminder, as IHS's Daniel Yergin told us the other day, that "technology responds to need and to price." It was the same story in the 1970s, when the world responded to OPEC's embargoes by exploiting new resources in Alaska and the North Sea, and again in the 1980s and 1990s, when offshore drilling became technologically feasible and economically profitable at ever-greater depths. And expect more from where that came, as the frackers continue to figure out how to drive down costs, and if new shale deposits in places such as Mexico, Ukraine and Argentina start to be exploited.
Also worth remembering is how spectacularly wrong some recent predictions of doom turned out to be. This is shooting fish in a barrel, but here is Paul Krugman in December 2010, declaring that "peak oil has arrived."
"What the commodity markets are telling us," Mr. Krugman averred, "is that we're living in a finite world, in which the rapid growth of emerging economies is placing pressure on limited supplies of raw materials, pushing up their prices. And America is, for the most part, just a bystander in this story." Far from being a bystander, America has been the main oil-market innovator.
Such doomsaying is that much more embarrassing because warnings of peak oil are nearly as old as the oil industry. In his book "The Quest," Mr. Yergin records that in 1885 the state geologist of Pennsylvania warned that "the amazing exhibition of oil" was "a temporary and vanishing phenomenon--one which young men will live to see come to its natural end."
Given this 130-year record of predictive failure, why does the end-of-oil myth persist? Part of it is that peak oil is more wish than prediction--a desire to see the end of fossil fuels to serve a larger political agenda. It is also a way of scaring governments into pouring money into alternative energy sources that can't compete with oil and natural gas without subsidies and mandates. Predicting disaster can also be a profitable business and a path to speech-making celebrity.
The happy ending is that the notion that the world is running out of resources always fails because the ingenuity of entrepreneurs, spurred by necessity and incentive, always exceeds the imagination of doomsayers. So we are learning again, and let's hope memories will be longer this time. >>
(No thanks, Solyndra.)
Wall Street Journal editorial, December 4, 2014
<< 'Peak Oil' Debunked, Again
The world relearns that supply responds to necessity and price.
It has been 216 years since Thomas Malthus gave birth to the idea that mankind's appetite for natural resources would outstrip nature's capacity to supply them. There have since been regular warnings that the world is running out of soybeans, helium, chocolate, tunsgsten, you name it--and that population growth has become unsustainable. The warnings create a political or social panic for a while, only to be proved wrong.
The latest reckoning with reality is the end of the obsession with "peak oil," which for years had serious people proclaiming that we were entering an era of permanent fossil fuels scarcity. It didn't work out that way.
That's a central lesson from this year's dramatic fall in the price of oil, which reached $69.49 a barrel of Brent crude on Thursday from a June high of $112.12. As recently as early November, when oil hovered at $80, OPEC officials warned they would intervene to hold the price at $70. But Saudi officials conspicuously refused to support an output cut at last week's OPEC meeting, and Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi has made clear that he'd be comfortable with lower prices.
The short-term Saudi calculation is to drive oil prices down to squeeze their geopolitical adversaries and higher-cost producers. That goes especially for their adversaries across the Persian Gulf in Iran, which depends on oil exports for over 40% of its revenues, and where the regime had designed its budget based on $100 oil.
The Saudis also hope to slow the explosive growth of U.S. production, which, thanks to the tapping of domestic shale resources through the combination of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing, has risen to some nine million barrels a day from five million in 2008. By some estimates, the price of oil needs to be as high as $90 a barrel for oil extracted from "tight" deposits such as shale, though oil market research firm IHS believes most tight oil wells have a break-even cost of between $50 and $69 dollars a barrel.
But even if the Saudi move slows U.S. drilling, the International Energy Agency forecasts that U.S. production will still surpass Saudi Arabia's output of 9.7 million barrels a day, and overtake Russia's 10.3 million, perhaps sometime next year. This would make America the world's largest oil producer, which it was from the dawn of the oil age through 1974. Thanks to the fracking boom, the U.S. surpassed Russia as the world's largest natural-gas producer in 2013.
All this is a useful reminder, as IHS's Daniel Yergin told us the other day, that "technology responds to need and to price." It was the same story in the 1970s, when the world responded to OPEC's embargoes by exploiting new resources in Alaska and the North Sea, and again in the 1980s and 1990s, when offshore drilling became technologically feasible and economically profitable at ever-greater depths. And expect more from where that came, as the frackers continue to figure out how to drive down costs, and if new shale deposits in places such as Mexico, Ukraine and Argentina start to be exploited.
Also worth remembering is how spectacularly wrong some recent predictions of doom turned out to be. This is shooting fish in a barrel, but here is Paul Krugman in December 2010, declaring that "peak oil has arrived."
"What the commodity markets are telling us," Mr. Krugman averred, "is that we're living in a finite world, in which the rapid growth of emerging economies is placing pressure on limited supplies of raw materials, pushing up their prices. And America is, for the most part, just a bystander in this story." Far from being a bystander, America has been the main oil-market innovator.
Such doomsaying is that much more embarrassing because warnings of peak oil are nearly as old as the oil industry. In his book "The Quest," Mr. Yergin records that in 1885 the state geologist of Pennsylvania warned that "the amazing exhibition of oil" was "a temporary and vanishing phenomenon--one which young men will live to see come to its natural end."
Given this 130-year record of predictive failure, why does the end-of-oil myth persist? Part of it is that peak oil is more wish than prediction--a desire to see the end of fossil fuels to serve a larger political agenda. It is also a way of scaring governments into pouring money into alternative energy sources that can't compete with oil and natural gas without subsidies and mandates. Predicting disaster can also be a profitable business and a path to speech-making celebrity.
The happy ending is that the notion that the world is running out of resources always fails because the ingenuity of entrepreneurs, spurred by necessity and incentive, always exceeds the imagination of doomsayers. So we are learning again, and let's hope memories will be longer this time. >>
Herman
Dec 6, 2014, 3:44:58 AM12/6/14
to
On Saturday, December 6, 2014 2:53:29 AM UTC+1, Oscar wrote:
> John, why haven't you posted anything about the huge drop in gasoline prices over the last six months?
I'm going to make a wild wild guess, and say it's because John is aware this is a newsgroup about classical music.
> John, why haven't you posted anything about the huge drop in gasoline prices over the last six months?
Not the karaoke talk radio you take it for.
William Sommerwerck
Dec 6, 2014, 8:49:02 AM12/6/14
to
"Oscar" wrote in message
news:04d1b1f2-62fb-43d9...@googlegroups.com...
John, why haven't you posted anything about the huge drop in gasoline prices
over the last six months? Oil prices down over 40 percent! That's reason for
thanksgiving, wouldn't you say? I mean, I remember 6-7 years ago when leading
Dems, such as Californias own Nancy Pelosi, were screaming for the heads of
all those evil white men of Big Oil from the House floor. And why have those
darned petrol cartels allowed this bottoming-out to happen? Easily the largest
stimulus package for the average American household in the last 6 years.
Thanks, Chevron! Thanks, Mobil! Thanks, BP! Thanks, Shell!
(No thanks, Solyndra.)
This WSJ editorial is the conservative version of the liberal belief that
government intervention will solve all human problems. Here it's "the market
will solve all problems". Who said we're obliged to let economic markets
control our lives? Especially when businesses manipulate markets to maximize
their profits.
It should be obvious that moving toward cheap, renewable energy would be a
great thing for everyone -- except those holding Big Oil stocks. "People" have
the right to say "We don't like what business is doing, and we want something
different." We already see this in the move towards more-efficient vehicles
and increasing use of solar power (which oil companies are trying to regulate
out of existence).
The best economic system is hunting/gathering, as it forces individuals to be
responsible for themselves. As far as "advanced" economies go, market systems
are the least bad, because they allow a degree of choice, and have a feedback
mechanism that produces self-regulation (when supply can respond to demand in
a reasonable amount of time). But market-based solutions are ultimately
"correct" only for the market. Whether they benefit the individual (or even
business) is another matter.
"Given this 130-year record of predictive failure, why does the end-of-oil
myth persist? Part of it is that peak oil is more wish than prediction--a
desire to see the end of fossil fuels to serve a larger political agenda."
Of course it does! The political agenda is "Let's have cheap, renewable
energy!" And if the energy companies don't want to give it to us, government
should interfere.
"It is also a way of scaring governments into pouring money into alternative
energy sources that can't compete with oil and natural gas without subsidies
and mandates."
Can't compete? The ignoramus who wrote this article conveniently overlooks the
startling drop in the cost of solar-electric power, which I would not have
predicted. I was speaking the other day to a man from PSE who said he was
equally surprised. He encouraged me to ask my HOA to install panels on our
buildings, so we could be paid for pumping energy back into the system. (I
don't know how long amortization would take.)
"Predicting disaster can also be a profitable business and a path to
speech-making celebrity."
As in telling people that government is taking away their precious freedoms?
"The happy ending is that the notion that the world is running out of
resources always fails because the ingenuity of entrepreneurs, spurred by
necessity and incentive, always exceeds the imagination of doomsayers. So we
are learning again, and let's hope memories will be longer this time."
Our greatest resource is the ability to come up with alternative solutions to
problems. But The People With Money want to keep things the way they are, and
block change. This isn't the way markets are supposed to work.
By the way... helium cannot be manufactured or synthesized. Unless new helium
wells are found, we will run out of it.
news:04d1b1f2-62fb-43d9...@googlegroups.com...
John, why haven't you posted anything about the huge drop in gasoline prices
over the last six months? Oil prices down over 40 percent! That's reason for
thanksgiving, wouldn't you say? I mean, I remember 6-7 years ago when leading
Dems, such as Californias own Nancy Pelosi, were screaming for the heads of
all those evil white men of Big Oil from the House floor. And why have those
darned petrol cartels allowed this bottoming-out to happen? Easily the largest
stimulus package for the average American household in the last 6 years.
Thanks, Chevron! Thanks, Mobil! Thanks, BP! Thanks, Shell!
(No thanks, Solyndra.)
government intervention will solve all human problems. Here it's "the market
will solve all problems". Who said we're obliged to let economic markets
control our lives? Especially when businesses manipulate markets to maximize
their profits.
It should be obvious that moving toward cheap, renewable energy would be a
great thing for everyone -- except those holding Big Oil stocks. "People" have
the right to say "We don't like what business is doing, and we want something
different." We already see this in the move towards more-efficient vehicles
and increasing use of solar power (which oil companies are trying to regulate
out of existence).
The best economic system is hunting/gathering, as it forces individuals to be
responsible for themselves. As far as "advanced" economies go, market systems
are the least bad, because they allow a degree of choice, and have a feedback
mechanism that produces self-regulation (when supply can respond to demand in
a reasonable amount of time). But market-based solutions are ultimately
"correct" only for the market. Whether they benefit the individual (or even
business) is another matter.
"Given this 130-year record of predictive failure, why does the end-of-oil
myth persist? Part of it is that peak oil is more wish than prediction--a
desire to see the end of fossil fuels to serve a larger political agenda."
energy!" And if the energy companies don't want to give it to us, government
should interfere.
"It is also a way of scaring governments into pouring money into alternative
energy sources that can't compete with oil and natural gas without subsidies
and mandates."
startling drop in the cost of solar-electric power, which I would not have
predicted. I was speaking the other day to a man from PSE who said he was
equally surprised. He encouraged me to ask my HOA to install panels on our
buildings, so we could be paid for pumping energy back into the system. (I
don't know how long amortization would take.)
"Predicting disaster can also be a profitable business and a path to
speech-making celebrity."
"The happy ending is that the notion that the world is running out of
resources always fails because the ingenuity of entrepreneurs, spurred by
necessity and incentive, always exceeds the imagination of doomsayers. So we
are learning again, and let's hope memories will be longer this time."
problems. But The People With Money want to keep things the way they are, and
block change. This isn't the way markets are supposed to work.
By the way... helium cannot be manufactured or synthesized. Unless new helium
wells are found, we will run out of it.
whiskynsplash
Nov 27, 2014, 9:39:24 PM11/27/14
to
Came over on the Mayflower, did you Oskie?
Try not to flood this Classical music recordings forum with your interminable posts on your political obsessions, you clueless cunt. I refer to your snarky posts on the Ferguson riots, the supposed increase in the number of green cards being processed, the "European" musicians being dropped from the Malaysian orchestra, and on, and on, and on. You remind me of that fat, stupid kid, Oskie in "The Summer of 42," who couldn't keep his mouth shut.
The WSJ is a fairly worthless stock tipsheet (in as much reading it does not give one a single good stock tip, but it does spew out the party line pretty constantly on its editorial pages). Needless to say, it is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Here's an editorial rebuttal.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/27/thanksgiving-on-the-reservation-is-a-celebration-of-our-way-of-live-and-a-middle-finger-to-americas-failed-colonialism
My family's Thanksgiving on the reservation is a rebuke to America's colonialism
Frank Waln
When I was a little kid, I was unaware that I am the bastard child of colonisation, born into a reality in which I'll spend my entire life combating the way the world views me based on propaganda like national sports mascots and tales of the first thanksgiving.
As an adult, Thanksgiving is just more colonialist propaganda masquerading as history - and a day that represents hundreds of years of genocide, persecution and oppression of our people.
So I love the version of the Thanksgiving story in the movie Addams Family Values, because I get to see the Indians win.
The Addams Family Values apparently include giving thanks ... for fire.
In the summer camp play depicting the first thanksgiving, all the blond, white kids in their Western hegemonic glory are cast as the Pilgrims. The outcasts of the summer camp - the black, brown and disabled kids - are cast as the Indians, with Wednesday Addams as Pocahontas (despite the fact that the Wampanoags were the first to come into contact with the Pilgrims, and Pocahantas was Powhatan). During the performance, Wednesday disregards the script, gives a speech about the impending colonization the Pilgrims will bring, proclaiming, "The Gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said 'Do not trust the Pilgrims'" - and then leads a revolt and burns the Pilgrim village to the ground.
I love this scene because the cultural appropriation and racist dialogue usually used in portrayals of Indigenous people on thanksgiving is absent. I was taken in by the illusion that we were finally triumphant - if only in a made-up play, in a movie about a strange, fictional family.
My family is Sicangu Lakota, and I was born and raised on the Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota. My family was in no way wealthy, but we were lucky enough to have food on our table when we got together at my grandma's house to eat every day. My mother taught me to give thanks for the things we have every day, because that's what Lakotas do.
As a 25-year-old Lakota hip-hop artist, I celebrate life by creating new, true representations for the next generation to look up to instead of make-believe ones. I celebrate life by using my art to speak on indigenous resistance and the injustices indigenous people suffer.
But living on the reservation as a child, the colonialism the holiday represents never occurred to me as we came together every Thanksgiving. I grew up spending every Thanksgiving eating, laughing and spending time with my family.
I now see the historical subtext behind the holiday, and the way some Indigenous folks, including my family, have appropriated the day as a time to celebrate our life. On Thanksgiving, we aren't celebrating the Mayflower landing in the New World or the systematic genocide that decimated Native populations. We're enjoying a meal no different than any other meal in our house, but with a little extra food on the table that day. Lakota people don't need a national holiday to come together as family to eat and give thanks.
But I have a lot of respect for the Indigenous folks who refuse to observe the "holiday" in any way, shape or form.
Because there are more than 560 federally-recognized tribes (and many more unrecognized) in the US alone, I can't speak for all Indigenous people - their views on Thanksgiving are as varied as their cultures, languages, and traditions.
My family getting together to eat and celebrate our lives on a day that represents the genocide of our ancestors and culture is, in its own way, a "fuck you" to colonialisation. America's colonial project failed. We're still here, and we're keeping our ceremonies and traditions alive. We're still speaking our languages. We're living our culture. I'm alive and I know what it means to be Lakota. For that, I give thanks every day.
Try not to flood this Classical music recordings forum with your interminable posts on your political obsessions, you clueless cunt. I refer to your snarky posts on the Ferguson riots, the supposed increase in the number of green cards being processed, the "European" musicians being dropped from the Malaysian orchestra, and on, and on, and on. You remind me of that fat, stupid kid, Oskie in "The Summer of 42," who couldn't keep his mouth shut.
The WSJ is a fairly worthless stock tipsheet (in as much reading it does not give one a single good stock tip, but it does spew out the party line pretty constantly on its editorial pages). Needless to say, it is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Here's an editorial rebuttal.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/27/thanksgiving-on-the-reservation-is-a-celebration-of-our-way-of-live-and-a-middle-finger-to-americas-failed-colonialism
My family's Thanksgiving on the reservation is a rebuke to America's colonialism
Frank Waln
When I was a little kid, I was unaware that I am the bastard child of colonisation, born into a reality in which I'll spend my entire life combating the way the world views me based on propaganda like national sports mascots and tales of the first thanksgiving.
As an adult, Thanksgiving is just more colonialist propaganda masquerading as history - and a day that represents hundreds of years of genocide, persecution and oppression of our people.
So I love the version of the Thanksgiving story in the movie Addams Family Values, because I get to see the Indians win.
The Addams Family Values apparently include giving thanks ... for fire.
In the summer camp play depicting the first thanksgiving, all the blond, white kids in their Western hegemonic glory are cast as the Pilgrims. The outcasts of the summer camp - the black, brown and disabled kids - are cast as the Indians, with Wednesday Addams as Pocahontas (despite the fact that the Wampanoags were the first to come into contact with the Pilgrims, and Pocahantas was Powhatan). During the performance, Wednesday disregards the script, gives a speech about the impending colonization the Pilgrims will bring, proclaiming, "The Gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said 'Do not trust the Pilgrims'" - and then leads a revolt and burns the Pilgrim village to the ground.
I love this scene because the cultural appropriation and racist dialogue usually used in portrayals of Indigenous people on thanksgiving is absent. I was taken in by the illusion that we were finally triumphant - if only in a made-up play, in a movie about a strange, fictional family.
My family is Sicangu Lakota, and I was born and raised on the Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota. My family was in no way wealthy, but we were lucky enough to have food on our table when we got together at my grandma's house to eat every day. My mother taught me to give thanks for the things we have every day, because that's what Lakotas do.
As a 25-year-old Lakota hip-hop artist, I celebrate life by creating new, true representations for the next generation to look up to instead of make-believe ones. I celebrate life by using my art to speak on indigenous resistance and the injustices indigenous people suffer.
But living on the reservation as a child, the colonialism the holiday represents never occurred to me as we came together every Thanksgiving. I grew up spending every Thanksgiving eating, laughing and spending time with my family.
I now see the historical subtext behind the holiday, and the way some Indigenous folks, including my family, have appropriated the day as a time to celebrate our life. On Thanksgiving, we aren't celebrating the Mayflower landing in the New World or the systematic genocide that decimated Native populations. We're enjoying a meal no different than any other meal in our house, but with a little extra food on the table that day. Lakota people don't need a national holiday to come together as family to eat and give thanks.
But I have a lot of respect for the Indigenous folks who refuse to observe the "holiday" in any way, shape or form.
Because there are more than 560 federally-recognized tribes (and many more unrecognized) in the US alone, I can't speak for all Indigenous people - their views on Thanksgiving are as varied as their cultures, languages, and traditions.
My family getting together to eat and celebrate our lives on a day that represents the genocide of our ancestors and culture is, in its own way, a "fuck you" to colonialisation. America's colonial project failed. We're still here, and we're keeping our ceremonies and traditions alive. We're still speaking our languages. We're living our culture. I'm alive and I know what it means to be Lakota. For that, I give thanks every day.
Oscar
Nov 28, 2014, 3:48:40 AM11/28/14
to
On Friday, November 28, 2014 12:54:58 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> you skipped his relentless racist jabs - all of course under the cover of "sarcasm" and "humor".
Would you care to produce an example or two?
> In some ways this guy is not interested in politics at all. If Obama were a republican prez...
...he'd be shot by the New Black Panther Party _IF_ they had enough money on their EBT cards to buy guns & ammo. You can't make this stuff up.
From St. Louis Post-Dispatch:
<< Alleged plot included bombing Arch, killing St. Louis County prosecutor, Ferguson chief
By Christine Byers and Robert Patrick
ST. LOUIS * Two men indicted last week on federal weapons charges allegedly had plans to bomb the Gateway Arch -- and to kill St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson -- the Post-Dispatch has learned.
Sources close to the investigation said the men purchased what they thought was a pipe bomb in an undercover law enforcement sting.
The men wanted to acquire two more bombs, the sources said, but could not afford to do it until one suspect's girlfriend's Electronic Benefit Transfer card was replenished.
An indictment, with no mention of bombs or killings, was returned in federal court here Nov. 19 and unsealed Friday upon the arrest of Brandon Orlando Baldwin AKA Brandon Muhammad, and Olajuwon Ali Davis. Their addresses and Baldwin's age were not available; Davis is 22.
The arrest came three days before McCulloch revealed that a grand jury would not indict Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson in the controversial killing of Michael Brown. The announcement triggered looting and multiple arsons in Ferguson.
One of the defendants' plans, the sources said, included planting a bomb inside the observation deck at the top of the Arch.
The sources said additional charges, reflecting the plot, were expected to be filed. They said Davis was considered the leader of the plot, which police documented on hidden video.
Baldwin and Davis pleaded not guilty in a hearing Tuesday. At a second hearing, prosecutors were prepared to argue that both should be held in jail until trial. An FBI agent was present, and photographic or video evidence was ready to play. But both defendants waived their right to make a case for bail, so the hearing did not proceed. >>
>
> you skipped his relentless racist jabs - all of course under the cover of "sarcasm" and "humor".
Would you care to produce an example or two?
> In some ways this guy is not interested in politics at all. If Obama were a republican prez...
...he'd be shot by the New Black Panther Party _IF_ they had enough money on their EBT cards to buy guns & ammo. You can't make this stuff up.
From St. Louis Post-Dispatch:
<< Alleged plot included bombing Arch, killing St. Louis County prosecutor, Ferguson chief
By Christine Byers and Robert Patrick
ST. LOUIS * Two men indicted last week on federal weapons charges allegedly had plans to bomb the Gateway Arch -- and to kill St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson -- the Post-Dispatch has learned.
Sources close to the investigation said the men purchased what they thought was a pipe bomb in an undercover law enforcement sting.
The men wanted to acquire two more bombs, the sources said, but could not afford to do it until one suspect's girlfriend's Electronic Benefit Transfer card was replenished.
An indictment, with no mention of bombs or killings, was returned in federal court here Nov. 19 and unsealed Friday upon the arrest of Brandon Orlando Baldwin AKA Brandon Muhammad, and Olajuwon Ali Davis. Their addresses and Baldwin's age were not available; Davis is 22.
The arrest came three days before McCulloch revealed that a grand jury would not indict Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson in the controversial killing of Michael Brown. The announcement triggered looting and multiple arsons in Ferguson.
One of the defendants' plans, the sources said, included planting a bomb inside the observation deck at the top of the Arch.
The sources said additional charges, reflecting the plot, were expected to be filed. They said Davis was considered the leader of the plot, which police documented on hidden video.
Baldwin and Davis pleaded not guilty in a hearing Tuesday. At a second hearing, prosecutors were prepared to argue that both should be held in jail until trial. An FBI agent was present, and photographic or video evidence was ready to play. But both defendants waived their right to make a case for bail, so the hearing did not proceed. >>
Oscar
Nov 25, 2015, 12:25:55 PM11/25/15
to
From President James Madison's 1815 Thanksgiving proclamation:
No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. His kind providence originally conducted them to one of the best portions of the dwelling place allotted for the great family of the human race. He protected and cherished them under all the difficulties and trials to which they were exposed in their early days. Under His fostering care their habits, their sentiments, and their pursuits prepared them for a transition in due time to a state of independence and self-government. In the arduous struggle by which it was attained they were distinguished by multiplied tokens of His benign interposition. . . . And to the same Divine Author of Every Good and Perfect Gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.
No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. His kind providence originally conducted them to one of the best portions of the dwelling place allotted for the great family of the human race. He protected and cherished them under all the difficulties and trials to which they were exposed in their early days. Under His fostering care their habits, their sentiments, and their pursuits prepared them for a transition in due time to a state of independence and self-government. In the arduous struggle by which it was attained they were distinguished by multiplied tokens of His benign interposition. . . . And to the same Divine Author of Every Good and Perfect Gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.
JohnGavin
Nov 25, 2015, 1:57:20 PM11/25/15
to
On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 12:25:55 PM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
> From President James Madison's 1815 Thanksgiving proclamation:
>
> No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. His kind providence originally conducted them to one of the best portions of the dwelling place allotted for the great family of the human race. He protected and cherished them under all the difficulties and trials to which they were exposed in their early days. Under His fostering care their habits, their sentiments, and their pursuits prepared them for a transition in due time to a state of independence and self-government. In the arduous struggle by which it was attained they were distinguished by multiplied tokens of His benign interposition. . . . And to the same Divine Author of Every Good and Perfect Gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From President James Madison's 1815 Thanksgiving proclamation:
>
> No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. His kind providence originally conducted them to one of the best portions of the dwelling place allotted for the great family of the human race. He protected and cherished them under all the difficulties and trials to which they were exposed in their early days. Under His fostering care their habits, their sentiments, and their pursuits prepared them for a transition in due time to a state of independence and self-government. In the arduous struggle by which it was attained they were distinguished by multiplied tokens of His benign interposition. . . . And to the same Divine Author of Every Good and Perfect Gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land.
It would be impossible to find a single point of disagreement with this elegant and articulate proclamation, but we might do well to ask for Divine pardon and forgiveness for any possible mistreatment of Native Americans and the environment, and for subsequent misuse of our great economic and military power in misguided adventures.
The phrase 'this favored land" aptly describes the good karma that America has enjoyed for quite a long time - but the signs of current times are showing that this good fortune is wearing thin - it might be time to ask the Divine to enter into the hearts of the greedy, power-hungry and those prone toward arrogance, war mongering, and xenophobia.
John Thomas
Nov 25, 2015, 3:10:29 PM11/25/15
to
The WSJ editorial leaves out one of the more significant factors in our Thanksgiving history:
http://tinyw.in/Ue0e
http://tinyw.in/Ue0e
Bob Harper
Nov 26, 2015, 1:21:15 PM11/26/15
to
humility to ask His blessing and obey His commands. Does the nation, in
its current state, have the willingness to do this?
Bob Harper
Oscar
Nov 23, 2017, 2:38:44 PM11/23/17
to
The Desolate Wilderness
A chronicle of the Pilgrims' arrival at Plymouth, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton.
Here beginneth the chronicle of those memorable circumstances of the year 1620, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton, keeper of the records of Plymouth Colony, based on the account of William Bradford, sometime governor thereof:
So they left that goodly and pleasant city of Leyden, which had been their resting-place for above eleven years, but they knew that they were pilgrims and strangers here below, and looked not much on these things, but lifted up their eyes to Heaven, their dearest country, where God hath prepared for them a city (Heb. XI, 16), and therein quieted their spirits.
When they came to Delfs-Haven they found the ship and all things ready, and such of their friends as could not come with them followed after them, and sundry came from Amsterdam to see them shipt, and to take their leaves of them. One night was spent with little sleep with the most, but with friendly entertainment and Christian discourse, and other real expressions of true Christian love.
The next day they went on board, and their friends with them, where truly doleful was the sight of that sad and mournful parting, to hear what sighs and sobs and prayers did sound amongst them; what tears did gush from every eye, and pithy speeches pierced each other's heart, that sundry of the Dutch strangers that stood on the Key as spectators could not refrain from tears. But the tide (which stays for no man) calling them away, that were thus loath to depart, their Reverend Pastor, falling down on his knees, and they all with him, with watery cheeks commended them with the most fervent prayers unto the Lord and His blessing; and then with mutual embraces and many tears they took their leaves one of another, which proved to be the last leave to many of them.
Being now passed the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before them in expectations, they had now no friends to welcome them, no inns to entertain or refresh them, no houses, or much less towns, to repair unto to seek for succour; and for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of the country know them to be sharp and violent, subject to cruel and fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search unknown coasts.
Besides, what could they see but a hideous and desolate wilderness, full of wilde beasts and wilde men? and what multitudes of them there were, they then knew not: for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to Heaven) they could have but little solace or content in respect of any outward object; for summer being ended, all things stand in appearance with a weatherbeaten face, and the whole country, full of woods and thickets, represented a wild and savage hew.
If they looked behind them, there was a mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar or gulph to separate them from all the civil parts of the world.
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961.
A chronicle of the Pilgrims' arrival at Plymouth, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton.
Here beginneth the chronicle of those memorable circumstances of the year 1620, as recorded by Nathaniel Morton, keeper of the records of Plymouth Colony, based on the account of William Bradford, sometime governor thereof:
So they left that goodly and pleasant city of Leyden, which had been their resting-place for above eleven years, but they knew that they were pilgrims and strangers here below, and looked not much on these things, but lifted up their eyes to Heaven, their dearest country, where God hath prepared for them a city (Heb. XI, 16), and therein quieted their spirits.
When they came to Delfs-Haven they found the ship and all things ready, and such of their friends as could not come with them followed after them, and sundry came from Amsterdam to see them shipt, and to take their leaves of them. One night was spent with little sleep with the most, but with friendly entertainment and Christian discourse, and other real expressions of true Christian love.
The next day they went on board, and their friends with them, where truly doleful was the sight of that sad and mournful parting, to hear what sighs and sobs and prayers did sound amongst them; what tears did gush from every eye, and pithy speeches pierced each other's heart, that sundry of the Dutch strangers that stood on the Key as spectators could not refrain from tears. But the tide (which stays for no man) calling them away, that were thus loath to depart, their Reverend Pastor, falling down on his knees, and they all with him, with watery cheeks commended them with the most fervent prayers unto the Lord and His blessing; and then with mutual embraces and many tears they took their leaves one of another, which proved to be the last leave to many of them.
Being now passed the vast ocean, and a sea of troubles before them in expectations, they had now no friends to welcome them, no inns to entertain or refresh them, no houses, or much less towns, to repair unto to seek for succour; and for the season it was winter, and they that know the winters of the country know them to be sharp and violent, subject to cruel and fierce storms, dangerous to travel to known places, much more to search unknown coasts.
Besides, what could they see but a hideous and desolate wilderness, full of wilde beasts and wilde men? and what multitudes of them there were, they then knew not: for which way soever they turned their eyes (save upward to Heaven) they could have but little solace or content in respect of any outward object; for summer being ended, all things stand in appearance with a weatherbeaten face, and the whole country, full of woods and thickets, represented a wild and savage hew.
If they looked behind them, there was a mighty ocean which they had passed, and was now as a main bar or gulph to separate them from all the civil parts of the world.
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961.
Oscar
Nov 22, 2018, 1:12:58 AM11/22/18
to
Frank Berger
Nov 22, 2018, 8:18:51 AM11/22/18
to
(here referred to as "wilde men)?" Come to think of it, weren't there
wilde women as well?
Oscar
Nov 22, 2018, 5:16:57 PM11/22/18
to
President Ronald Wilson Reagan’s Thanksgiving proclamation, November 12, 1981:
America has much for which to be thankful. The unequaled freedom enjoyed by our citizens has provided a harvest of plenty to this nation throughout its history. In keeping with America's heritage, one day each year is set aside for giving thanks to god for all of His blessings. On this day of thanksgiving, it is appropriate that we recall the first thanksgiving, celebrated in the autumn of 1621. After surviving a bitter winter, the Pilgrims planted and harvested a bountiful crop. After the harvest they gathered their families together and joined in celebration and prayer with the Native Americans who had taught them so much. Clearly our forefathers were thankful not only for the material well being of their harvest but for this abundance of goodwill as well.
In this spirit, Thanksgiving has become a day when Americans extend a helping hand to the less fortunate. Long before there was a government welfare program, this spirit of voluntary giving was ingrained in the American character. Americans have always understood that, truly, one must give in order to receive. This should be a day of giving as well as a day of thanks. As we celebrate Thanksgiving in 1981, we should reflect on the full meaning of this day as we enjoy the fellowship that is so much a part of the holiday festivities. Searching our hearts, we should ask what we can do sass individuals to demonstrate our gratitude to God for all He has done. Such reflection can only add to the significance of this precious day of remembrance.
Let us recommit ourselves to that devotion to God and family that has played such an important role in making this a great Nation, and which will be needed as a source of strength if we are to remain a great people. Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 26, 1981, as Thanksgiving Day. In witness where of, I have here unto set my hand this twelfth day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and sixth.
America has much for which to be thankful. The unequaled freedom enjoyed by our citizens has provided a harvest of plenty to this nation throughout its history. In keeping with America's heritage, one day each year is set aside for giving thanks to god for all of His blessings. On this day of thanksgiving, it is appropriate that we recall the first thanksgiving, celebrated in the autumn of 1621. After surviving a bitter winter, the Pilgrims planted and harvested a bountiful crop. After the harvest they gathered their families together and joined in celebration and prayer with the Native Americans who had taught them so much. Clearly our forefathers were thankful not only for the material well being of their harvest but for this abundance of goodwill as well.
In this spirit, Thanksgiving has become a day when Americans extend a helping hand to the less fortunate. Long before there was a government welfare program, this spirit of voluntary giving was ingrained in the American character. Americans have always understood that, truly, one must give in order to receive. This should be a day of giving as well as a day of thanks. As we celebrate Thanksgiving in 1981, we should reflect on the full meaning of this day as we enjoy the fellowship that is so much a part of the holiday festivities. Searching our hearts, we should ask what we can do sass individuals to demonstrate our gratitude to God for all He has done. Such reflection can only add to the significance of this precious day of remembrance.
Let us recommit ourselves to that devotion to God and family that has played such an important role in making this a great Nation, and which will be needed as a source of strength if we are to remain a great people. Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 26, 1981, as Thanksgiving Day. In witness where of, I have here unto set my hand this twelfth day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and sixth.
O
Nov 23, 2018, 3:38:46 PM11/23/18
to
In article <d3dd9a2f-c1c8-4c72...@googlegroups.com>,
Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> President Ronald Wilson Reagan零 Thanksgiving proclamation, November 12, 1981:
>
Well, Reagan didn't start our nation's Thanksgiving day, nor does our
current celebration really match back to those of the pilgrims, but the
one man who did start ( or restart, because George Washington had such
a day, that was later halted by Thomas Jefferson) what we currently
celebrate as Thanksgiving was Abraham Lincoln, who proclaimed such
after the Union armies won their decided battle at Gettysburg:
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the
blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties,
which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source
from which they come, others have been added, which are of so
extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften
even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful
providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled
magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to
invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with
all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected
and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre
of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by
the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of
wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the
national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the
ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the
mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded
even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily
increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp,
the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the
consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect
continuance of years, with large increase of freedom.
No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these
great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who,
while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless
remembered mercy.
It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly,
reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by
the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in
every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and
those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the
last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to
our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to
them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such
singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble
penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to
his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or
sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably
engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand
to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be
consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace,
harmony, tranquility and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal
of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the city of Washington, this third day of October, in the year
of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the
independence of the United States the eighty-eighth."
Proclamation of President Abraham Lincoln, October 3, 1863.[3]
-Owen, with apologies to the Quote Bot for horning in on his territory.
Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> President Ronald Wilson Reagan零 Thanksgiving proclamation, November 12, 1981:
>
Well, Reagan didn't start our nation's Thanksgiving day, nor does our
current celebration really match back to those of the pilgrims, but the
one man who did start ( or restart, because George Washington had such
a day, that was later halted by Thomas Jefferson) what we currently
celebrate as Thanksgiving was Abraham Lincoln, who proclaimed such
after the Union armies won their decided battle at Gettysburg:
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the
blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties,
which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source
from which they come, others have been added, which are of so
extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften
even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful
providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled
magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to
invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with
all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected
and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre
of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by
the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of
wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the
national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the
ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the
mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded
even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily
increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp,
the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the
consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect
continuance of years, with large increase of freedom.
No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these
great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who,
while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless
remembered mercy.
It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly,
reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by
the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in
every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and
those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the
last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to
our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to
them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such
singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble
penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to
his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or
sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably
engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand
to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be
consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace,
harmony, tranquility and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal
of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the city of Washington, this third day of October, in the year
of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the
independence of the United States the eighty-eighth."
Proclamation of President Abraham Lincoln, October 3, 1863.[3]
-Owen, with apologies to the Quote Bot for horning in on his territory.
Message has been deleted
Oscar
Nov 28, 2019, 10:39:32 AM11/28/19
to
Once again, Happy Thanksgiving:
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961. .
Oscar
Nov 26, 2020, 9:13:22 PM11/26/20
to
From The Wall Street Journal:
<< OPINION
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
The Desolate Wilderness
Nov. 24, 2020
Appeared in the November 25, 2020, print edition. >>
AMEN.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-desolate-wilderness-11606261596
<< OPINION
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
The Desolate Wilderness
Nov. 24, 2020
AMEN.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-desolate-wilderness-11606261596
Oscar
Nov 26, 2020, 9:15:12 PM11/26/20
to
From The Wall Street Journal:
<< OPINION
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
And the Fair Land
<< OPINION
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
Nov. 24, 2020
Any one whose labors take him into the far reaches of the country, as ours lately have done, is bound to mark how the years have made the land grow fruitful.
This is indeed a big country, a rich country, in a way no array of figures can measure and so in a way past belief of those who have not seen it. Even those who journey through its Northeastern complex, into the Southern lands, across the central plains and to its Western slopes can only glimpse a measure of the bounty of America.
And a traveler cannot but be struck on his journey by the thought that this country, one day, can be even greater. America, though many know it not, is one of the great underdeveloped countries of the world; what it reaches for exceeds by far what it has grasped.
So the visitor returns thankful for much of what he has seen, and, in spite of everything, an optimist about what his country might be. Yet the visitor, if he is to make an honest report, must also note the air of unease that hangs everywhere.
For the traveler, as travelers have been always, is as much questioned as questioning. And for all the abundance he sees, he finds the questions put to him ask where men may repair for succor from the troubles that beset them.
His countrymen cannot forget the savage face of war. Too often they have been asked to fight in strange and distant places, for no clear purpose they could see and for no accomplishment they can measure. Their spirits are not quieted by the thought that the good and pleasant bounty that surrounds them can be destroyed in an instant by a single bomb. Yet they find no escape, for their survival and comfort now depend on unpredictable strangers in far-off corners of the globe.
How can they turn from melancholy when at home they see young arrayed against old, black against white, neighbor against neighbor, so that they stand in peril of social discord. Or not despair when they see that the cities and countryside are in need of repair, yet find themselves threatened by scarcities of the resources that sustain their way of life. Or when, in the face of these challenges, they turn for leadership to men in high places—only to find those men as frail as any others.
So sometimes the traveler is asked whence will come their succor. What is to preserve their abundance, or even their civility? How can they pass on to their children a nation as strong and free as the one they inherited from their forefathers? How is their country to endure these cruel storms that beset it from without and from within?
Of course the stranger cannot quiet their spirits. For it is true that everywhere men turn their eyes today much of the world has a truly wild and savage hue. No man, if he be truthful, can say that the specter of war is banished. Nor can he say that when men or communities are put upon their own resources they are sure of solace; nor be sure that men of diverse kinds and diverse views can live peaceably together in a time of troubles.
But we can all remind ourselves that the richness of this country was not born in the resources of the earth, though they be plentiful, but in the men that took its measure. For that reminder is everywhere—in the cities, towns, farms, roads, factories, homes, hospitals, schools that spread everywhere over that wilderness.
We can remind ourselves that for all our social discord we yet remain the longest enduring society of free men governing themselves without benefit of kings or dictators. Being so, we are the marvel and the mystery of the world, for that enduring liberty is no less a blessing than the abundance of the earth.
And we might remind ourselves also, that if those men setting out from Delftshaven had been daunted by the troubles they saw around them, then we could not this autumn be thankful for a fair land.
This editorial has appeared annually since 1961.
Appeared in the November 25, 2020, print edition. >>
AMEN.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/and-the-fair-land-11606261471
AMEN.
Oscar
Nov 27, 2020, 1:18:54 AM11/27/20
to
P.S. Just a reminder that the earliest Europeans who came to the New World and set down permanent roots were not immigrants. They were settlers, pioneers who created something out of nothing. These people were also Anglo. They were Christian—specifically Protestant—and they were capitalists, funded by money from the old world for the sake of (primarily) beaver pelt exportation. That's not a statement against immigrants or other religions and races or tongues, but merely a point of clarification that liars, partisans, and fools forget or distort for their own hack reasons. End of.
Message has been deleted
Oscar
Nov 27, 2020, 1:41:16 AM11/27/20
to
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 10:32:16 PM, dk wrote:
>
> No they didn't. They merely took over the land by force,
I'm not going to call you names. Yr ignorance speaks volumes. Oh, and by they way, 399 years ago at the first Thanksgiving in the New World, according to Winslow, there were _90_ Native Americans and 53 Pilgrims. Good times. You got it on easy street, soft hands, and don't even know how good you have it. 'Murica!
P.S. To recap: You _don't_ know how good you have it!
From New York Post:
<< CIA officer killed during combat in Somalia
By Elizabeth Elizalde
November 25, 2020
A senior CIA officer was killed during combat in Somalia, according to reports.
The officer — who wasn’t named — was a former member of the Navy’s SEAL Team 6 and belonged to the Special Activities Center, the agency’s paramilitary division, the New York Times reported Wednesday.
The officer’s death comes after President Trump suggested he may withdraw troops out of Somalia in the future.
The US has 700 troops in Somalia tasked with working with local forces to defeat the terrorist group Al-Shabaab, according to Reuters.
The officer’s death will add another star on the memorial wall located inside the CIA’s headquarters in Virginia. The wall pays tribute to CIA service members killed in the line of duty.
In September, the agency tweeted that the wall featured 135 stars to honor the fallen officers. >>
>
> No they didn't. They merely took over the land by force,
I'm not going to call you names. Yr ignorance speaks volumes. Oh, and by they way, 399 years ago at the first Thanksgiving in the New World, according to Winslow, there were _90_ Native Americans and 53 Pilgrims. Good times. You got it on easy street, soft hands, and don't even know how good you have it. 'Murica!
P.S. To recap: You _don't_ know how good you have it!
From New York Post:
<< CIA officer killed during combat in Somalia
By Elizabeth Elizalde
November 25, 2020
A senior CIA officer was killed during combat in Somalia, according to reports.
The officer — who wasn’t named — was a former member of the Navy’s SEAL Team 6 and belonged to the Special Activities Center, the agency’s paramilitary division, the New York Times reported Wednesday.
The officer’s death comes after President Trump suggested he may withdraw troops out of Somalia in the future.
The US has 700 troops in Somalia tasked with working with local forces to defeat the terrorist group Al-Shabaab, according to Reuters.
The officer’s death will add another star on the memorial wall located inside the CIA’s headquarters in Virginia. The wall pays tribute to CIA service members killed in the line of duty.
In September, the agency tweeted that the wall featured 135 stars to honor the fallen officers. >>
Message has been deleted
Oscar
Nov 27, 2020, 2:10:12 AM11/27/20
to
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 10:53:01 PM, dk wrote:
>
> Cherry picking your evidence. How about the hundreds of
> thousands (if not millions) of Indians who were killed or
> hunted from their homes and herded into reservations?
_You_ are the one who said the Pilgrims did not create something out of nothing. Which is false. There was desolate wilderness and nothing _but_ desolate wilderness upon the land ashore wherein they set anchorage. Don't be such a numbskull. Western civilization owes Gov. Bradford and his small band of exiles everything. Now, go back to quarantine and wait for yr vaccine. Biden's brown shirts will be distributing Trump's product in due time. You ain't goin' nowhere without yr "new, improved" Covid passport anyway! (see below)
> I know exactly how good I have it -- and I am moving out!
Not enough, Dan.. Renounce yr citizenship and then I will accord you full 21 Oscar salute.
>
> Cherry picking your evidence. How about the hundreds of
> thousands (if not millions) of Indians who were killed or
> hunted from their homes and herded into reservations?
_You_ are the one who said the Pilgrims did not create something out of nothing. Which is false. There was desolate wilderness and nothing _but_ desolate wilderness upon the land ashore wherein they set anchorage. Don't be such a numbskull. Western civilization owes Gov. Bradford and his small band of exiles everything. Now, go back to quarantine and wait for yr vaccine. Biden's brown shirts will be distributing Trump's product in due time. You ain't goin' nowhere without yr "new, improved" Covid passport anyway! (see below)
> I know exactly how good I have it -- and I am moving out!
Not enough, Dan.. Renounce yr citizenship and then I will accord you full 21 Oscar salute.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Oscar
Nov 28, 2020, 12:57:15 AM11/28/20
to
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 2:18:48 PM, dk wrote:
>
> USA Total COVID cases 13,417,714 cases/M 40,440 deaths/M 816
> Singapore Total COVID cases 58,199 cases/M 9,916 deaths/M 5
> Hong Kong Total COVID cases 6,040 cases/M 803 deaths/M 14
> Taiwan Total COVID cases 639 cases/M 27 deaths/M 0.3
Yes, Dan. Let us compare the greatest liberator of freedom-loving peoples and protector of individual rights (which are also human rights) with Singapore and Hong Kong (!!): tiny, Confucian-abiding nation-states (or former protectorates) renowned for their overzealous policing of Yellow bodies. Don't graffiti in subway cars or you'll get caned. SWWATT! Care to mention how fast those puny, pristine places (which happen to be radically non-diverse) shut down their borders, or introduced military action? Then again, those societies really wouldn't tolerate antifa morons and statue-topplers overthrowing the dominant, i.e. "great", culture. Shock and awe in the streets, Tiananmen 2.0, dawg. And you thought a president holding a copy of the Holy Bible in front of a church was an unnecessary aggression.
>
> USA Total COVID cases 13,417,714 cases/M 40,440 deaths/M 816
> Singapore Total COVID cases 58,199 cases/M 9,916 deaths/M 5
> Hong Kong Total COVID cases 6,040 cases/M 803 deaths/M 14
> Taiwan Total COVID cases 639 cases/M 27 deaths/M 0.3
Yes, Dan. Let us compare the greatest liberator of freedom-loving peoples and protector of individual rights (which are also human rights) with Singapore and Hong Kong (!!): tiny, Confucian-abiding nation-states (or former protectorates) renowned for their overzealous policing of Yellow bodies. Don't graffiti in subway cars or you'll get caned. SWWATT! Care to mention how fast those puny, pristine places (which happen to be radically non-diverse) shut down their borders, or introduced military action? Then again, those societies really wouldn't tolerate antifa morons and statue-topplers overthrowing the dominant, i.e. "great", culture. Shock and awe in the streets, Tiananmen 2.0, dawg. And you thought a president holding a copy of the Holy Bible in front of a church was an unnecessary aggression.
Owen
Nov 28, 2020, 1:25:14 AM11/28/20
to
On 11/27/20 5:18 PM, dk wrote:
> the best "doctors", and the "best" president on this planet.
>
You're also comparing the vast United States with either island nations
or a tiny former colony with strong distinctions from the surrounding nation
The 1918 influenza epidemic resulted in 500 million cases with over 50
million dead worldwide, indicating a deaths per case of over 10%. To
compare to today's worst cases:
USA deaths per cases: 2.017%
India deaths per cases: 1.4%
Brazil: 2.75%
Russia: 1.75%
France: 2.36%
Spain: 2.71%
UK: 3.62%
Italy: 3.49%
Even China reports 5% on its rather meager and suspect totals.
Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Calculation: total deaths per million divided by total cases, per million
Since the great majority of people recover completely with little to no
after effects, the primary focus should be on deaths. According to my
figures, the US has done a bang up job on keeping people alive who got
this virus, as opposed to much of the rest of the world.
Yet the "science," whom every pundit is insisting we absolutely must
listen to has previously stated:
1) the virus is spread by touching your face after touching infected
surfaces.
2) The virus is not spread airborne.
3) Masks have no appreciable affect on spread of the virus (even Dr.
Fauci said this one!)
4) There's no indication that touching surfaces helps spread the disease.
5) The virus can live on some surfaces for up to 3 days.
6) The virus is spread airborne - social distancing and masks help.
I think they finally got it right on the last one, and, to be fair to
them, nobody had any idea what this virus did, and the only wisdom to
treat it was like treating the flu, but it really wasn't the flu, it was
something totally different. It will probably take years of laboratory
study to determine what were the right steps to take what weren't.
Yet, somehow it's all Trump's fault. I'm sure his record isn't
spotless, and his habit of running off at the mouth whatever popped into
his head at that instant didn't help him, but the reality is that he did
take the right steps quickly, like shutting down international travel.
His concern about not panicking the country was valid too -- remember
when you couldn't get toilet paper? If the country panicked any more,
you wouldn't be able to get food, which would kill more people than the
virus. I won't say that Trump did all the right things at the right
time, but the fact is that he did do things that stemmed the progression
of a very volatile and highly contagious virus, where he could have
easily made major mistakes.
An example of a major mistake was one taken by very many states,
especially the ones suffering from high infections. That was, in the
start, to direct hospitals to send people infected with coronavirus to
nursing homes to finish their recovery. To me, this sounds like some
insurance/medicare requirement to clear people out of hospitals asap so
they won't run up overnight bills, but we'll probably never know for
sure. And you can't pin that on Trump because apparently it was
governed by the individual states, which accounts for discrepancies in
deaths by state.
-Owen
> On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 2:41:16 PM UTC+8, Oscar wrote:
>>
>> P.S. To recap: You _don't_ know how good you have it!
>
> This is exactly how good we have it:
>>
>> P.S. To recap: You _don't_ know how good you have it!
>
>
> USA Total COVID cases 13,417,714 cases/M 40,440 deaths/M 816
> Singapore Total COVID cases 58,199 cases/M 9,916 deaths/M 5
> Hong Kong Total COVID cases 6,040 cases/M 803 deaths/M 14
> Taiwan Total COVID cases 639 cases/M 27 deaths/M 0.3
>
> And don't forget the US has the "best" health care system, the "best" hospitals,
> USA Total COVID cases 13,417,714 cases/M 40,440 deaths/M 816
> Singapore Total COVID cases 58,199 cases/M 9,916 deaths/M 5
> Hong Kong Total COVID cases 6,040 cases/M 803 deaths/M 14
> Taiwan Total COVID cases 639 cases/M 27 deaths/M 0.3
>
> the best "doctors", and the "best" president on this planet.
>
You're also comparing the vast United States with either island nations
or a tiny former colony with strong distinctions from the surrounding nation
The 1918 influenza epidemic resulted in 500 million cases with over 50
million dead worldwide, indicating a deaths per case of over 10%. To
compare to today's worst cases:
USA deaths per cases: 2.017%
India deaths per cases: 1.4%
Brazil: 2.75%
Russia: 1.75%
France: 2.36%
Spain: 2.71%
UK: 3.62%
Italy: 3.49%
Even China reports 5% on its rather meager and suspect totals.
Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Calculation: total deaths per million divided by total cases, per million
Since the great majority of people recover completely with little to no
after effects, the primary focus should be on deaths. According to my
figures, the US has done a bang up job on keeping people alive who got
this virus, as opposed to much of the rest of the world.
Yet the "science," whom every pundit is insisting we absolutely must
listen to has previously stated:
1) the virus is spread by touching your face after touching infected
surfaces.
2) The virus is not spread airborne.
3) Masks have no appreciable affect on spread of the virus (even Dr.
Fauci said this one!)
4) There's no indication that touching surfaces helps spread the disease.
5) The virus can live on some surfaces for up to 3 days.
6) The virus is spread airborne - social distancing and masks help.
I think they finally got it right on the last one, and, to be fair to
them, nobody had any idea what this virus did, and the only wisdom to
treat it was like treating the flu, but it really wasn't the flu, it was
something totally different. It will probably take years of laboratory
study to determine what were the right steps to take what weren't.
Yet, somehow it's all Trump's fault. I'm sure his record isn't
spotless, and his habit of running off at the mouth whatever popped into
his head at that instant didn't help him, but the reality is that he did
take the right steps quickly, like shutting down international travel.
His concern about not panicking the country was valid too -- remember
when you couldn't get toilet paper? If the country panicked any more,
you wouldn't be able to get food, which would kill more people than the
virus. I won't say that Trump did all the right things at the right
time, but the fact is that he did do things that stemmed the progression
of a very volatile and highly contagious virus, where he could have
easily made major mistakes.
An example of a major mistake was one taken by very many states,
especially the ones suffering from high infections. That was, in the
start, to direct hospitals to send people infected with coronavirus to
nursing homes to finish their recovery. To me, this sounds like some
insurance/medicare requirement to clear people out of hospitals asap so
they won't run up overnight bills, but we'll probably never know for
sure. And you can't pin that on Trump because apparently it was
governed by the individual states, which accounts for discrepancies in
deaths by state.
-Owen
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 2:02:56 AM11/28/20
to
Owen a formulé la demande :
*classical music* ?...
I'm fed up with these off-topics...
> You're also comparing the vast United States with either island nations or a
> tiny former colony with strong distinctions from the surrounding nation
Is it necessary to remind you that we are on a forum dedicated to
> tiny former colony with strong distinctions from the surrounding nation
*classical music* ?...
I'm fed up with these off-topics...
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 2:05:05 AM11/28/20
to
dk a exprimé avec précision :
> Hong Kong and Taiwan on the other hand have had far
> Hong Kong and Taiwan on the other hand have had far
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 2:05:19 AM11/28/20
to
Le 28/11/2020, dk a supposé :
> The two cities are close in area and population.
> The two cities are close in area and population.
Message has been deleted
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 2:53:50 AM11/28/20
to
dk a exposé le 28/11/2020 :
> 1) No one forces anyone else to read anything.
All these "arguments" are more than *specious*...
You just have to RESPECT the RULES of the Usenet...
There are enough political forums to spill your guts to the world...
You're not going to spoil my Christmas!...
> 1) No one forces anyone else to read anything.
All these "arguments" are more than *specious*...
You just have to RESPECT the RULES of the Usenet...
There are enough political forums to spill your guts to the world...
You're not going to spoil my Christmas!...
Message has been deleted
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 3:44:33 AM11/28/20
to
dk avait énoncé :
> Why don't you post something interesting
> about music and recordings, rather than
> merely critique others?
Naxos *keeps on with publishing* *its* piano integrals of Liszt and
Scarlatti...
They are absolutely fascinating, no matter what dk says...
By Pianist *S* (many different artists in each collection) , little or
not known, often young (but "obviously" not of the level of Richter,
Arrau and others Brendel or Sofronisky !)...
The only "flat" being (as too often with Naxos) the quality of the
sound recordings...
For Liszt, to be compared obviously with the Hyperion/Leslie Howard's
complete works...
And Scarlatti with the Brilliant/Belder box set...
https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=naxos+scarlatti&i=classical&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss
https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=naxos+liszt&i=classical&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss
> Why don't you post something interesting
> about music and recordings, rather than
> merely critique others?
Naxos *keeps on with publishing* *its* piano integrals of Liszt and
Scarlatti...
They are absolutely fascinating, no matter what dk says...
By Pianist *S* (many different artists in each collection) , little or
not known, often young (but "obviously" not of the level of Richter,
Arrau and others Brendel or Sofronisky !)...
The only "flat" being (as too often with Naxos) the quality of the
sound recordings...
For Liszt, to be compared obviously with the Hyperion/Leslie Howard's
complete works...
And Scarlatti with the Brilliant/Belder box set...
https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=naxos+scarlatti&i=classical&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss
https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=naxos+liszt&i=classical&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss
MELMOTH
Nov 28, 2020, 4:20:48 AM11/28/20
to
(supersedes <5fc1f6ab$0$19447$426a...@news.free.fr>)
Is it necessary to remind you that we are on a forum dedicated to
*classical music* ?...
I'm fed up with these off-topics...
And I really prefer you when you spill your bullshit on pianists...
Is it necessary to remind you that we are on a forum dedicated to
*classical music* ?...
I'm fed up with these off-topics...
It is loading more messages.
0 new messages