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Artur Schnabel LvB Pf. Sonatas in EMI CD set
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Edward A. Cowan
Aug 29, 2013, 8:18:18 PM8/29/13
to
Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755 2).
I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba! No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD, causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano. (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.) I have now listened to the contents of five of the 78rpm albums of sonatas, as follows:
Vol. 7, sonatas 1, 10, 28
Vol. 4, sonatas 2, 14, 26
Vol. 8, sonatas 3, 17, 21
Vol. 11, sonatas 4 and 16
Vol. 12, sonatas 5, 7, 25
(The full list may be found in vol. 1 of WERM, p.46, and also in César Saerchinger's biography of the pianist.
Soon, I expect to listen to vol. 6, sonatas 6, 8, 18.
The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression. (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise, but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable. It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me) much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time. If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba! No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD, causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano. (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.) I have now listened to the contents of five of the 78rpm albums of sonatas, as follows:
Vol. 7, sonatas 1, 10, 28
Vol. 4, sonatas 2, 14, 26
Vol. 8, sonatas 3, 17, 21
Vol. 11, sonatas 4 and 16
Vol. 12, sonatas 5, 7, 25
(The full list may be found in vol. 1 of WERM, p.46, and also in César Saerchinger's biography of the pianist.
Soon, I expect to listen to vol. 6, sonatas 6, 8, 18.
The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression. (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise, but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable. It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me) much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time. If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
George
Aug 29, 2013, 9:42:35 PM8/29/13
to
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:18:18 PM UTC-4, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755
I think you mean EMI CHS 7 63765 2.
> Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755
As for the difference in sound, I can't believe an expensive player will actually change the frequency response of any CD. But if you are enjoying Schnabel playing Beethoven, I guess that's all that matters.
George
Mort
Aug 29, 2013, 10:11:24 PM8/29/13
to
Sometimes EMI have different record numbers for otherwise identical
CDs, between European/British issues and USA issues. It can be quite
confusing.
Mort Linder
Steve de Mena
Aug 30, 2013, 4:35:17 AM8/30/13
to
On 8/29/13 5:18 PM, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755 2).
>
> I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
I think your Blu-Ray player is using a red laser diode of 6-700 nm to
> Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755 2).
>
> I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
read CDs and not its blue-violet 405nm laser. In other words, the
better sound is coming from some other component in the chain, like
D/A conversion.
Steve
William Sommerwerck
Aug 30, 2013, 8:43:01 AM8/30/13
to
"Edward A. Cowan" wrote in message
news:c43e762c-d4b4-47e4...@googlegroups.com...
> From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player
> a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the
> Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba!
> No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD,
> causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano.
> (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot
> but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.)
This comes dangerously close to applying the pathetic fallacy. A CD player can
only retrieve data from the disk. One player cannot "attempt" to a better job
of recovery. Of course, what happens after the recovery is another matter.
I would be the last person to claim that "all CD players sound alike". But
these are 80-year-old recordings that, by modern standards, are of very low
fidelity. No matter how good the playback, there is no way this recording can
possibly sound "like a real piano". (Piano is one of the hardest instruments
to "get right", and even modern recordings rarely sound realistic.)
If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a marimba", it
must be an awful-sounding player.
> The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player
> sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression.
> (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise,
> but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so
> altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable.
> It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the
> data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me)
> much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional
> CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time.
> If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD
> player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
When you listen to a CD on a BD player, you are hearing a conventional CD
player. Other than the possibility the disk is played with a blue laser rather
than an infra-red laser, the signal path is identical.
news:c43e762c-d4b4-47e4...@googlegroups.com...
> From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player
> a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the
> Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba!
> No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD,
> causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano.
> (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot
> but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.)
only retrieve data from the disk. One player cannot "attempt" to a better job
of recovery. Of course, what happens after the recovery is another matter.
I would be the last person to claim that "all CD players sound alike". But
these are 80-year-old recordings that, by modern standards, are of very low
fidelity. No matter how good the playback, there is no way this recording can
possibly sound "like a real piano". (Piano is one of the hardest instruments
to "get right", and even modern recordings rarely sound realistic.)
If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a marimba", it
must be an awful-sounding player.
> The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player
> sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression.
> (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise,
> but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so
> altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable.
> It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the
> data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me)
> much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional
> CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time.
> If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD
> player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
player. Other than the possibility the disk is played with a blue laser rather
than an infra-red laser, the signal path is identical.
Edward A. Cowan
Aug 30, 2013, 9:54:51 AM8/30/13
to
» the better sound is coming from some other component in the chain, like
D/A conversion. «
There was some mention of D/A conversion a few months ago here, alluding to the likelihood that my Pioneer BD player's D/A converter was of a higher order than that of my earlier CD player. Thanks for reminding me (and us) about that. You may be right! And I am very much enjoying the results, including my listening to the line-up of LvB sonatas listed earlier (Nos. 6, 8, and 18). The third mvt. of Sonata no. 18 is a particularly lovely rondo, and the material in that mvt. suggests (to me) that LvB could have possibly ventured into ragtime, or so my listening experience tells me. (Strictly speculating, of course...) --E.A.C.
Lionel Tacchini
Aug 30, 2013, 10:13:32 AM8/30/13
to
On 30.08.2013 14:43, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a
> marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
That's what happens when they are plugged the wrong way around.
> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a
> marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
--
Lionel Tacchini
"Ach, Du lieber Augustin, alles ist hin ..."
MiNe 109
Aug 30, 2013, 11:12:21 AM8/30/13
to
In article <kvq40n$d4s$1...@dont-email.me>,
subject of much discussion over the years. 'Marimba-like' is one of the
kinder descriptions! I'm almost tempted to re-listen on my current
system.
Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
I'm happy to hear them.
Stephen
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a marimba",
> it must be an awful-sounding player.
The EMI Schabel Beethoven cd transfers are notorious and have been the
> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like a marimba",
> it must be an awful-sounding player.
subject of much discussion over the years. 'Marimba-like' is one of the
kinder descriptions! I'm almost tempted to re-listen on my current
system.
Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
I'm happy to hear them.
Stephen
William Sommerwerck
Aug 30, 2013, 11:47:19 AM8/30/13
to
"MiNe 109" wrote in message
news:smcelroy2-112D4...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
In article <kvq40n$d4s$1...@dont-email.me>,
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like
>> a marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
> The EMI Schabel Beethoven cd transfers are notorious and have
> been the subject of much discussion over the years. 'marimba-like'
of the disk players//.
If the CD transfer //really does// make the piano sound like a marimba, then
the Blu-ray player is the inaccurate player, and is degrading the disks'
fidelity.
news:smcelroy2-112D4...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
In article <kvq40n$d4s$1...@dont-email.me>,
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like
>> a marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
> The EMI Schabel Beethoven cd transfers are notorious and have
> is one of the kinder descriptions! I'm almost tempted to re-listen
> on my current system.
But the original poster was talking about apparent differences //in the sound
> on my current system.
of the disk players//.
If the CD transfer //really does// make the piano sound like a marimba, then
the Blu-ray player is the inaccurate player, and is degrading the disks'
fidelity.
Steve de Mena
Aug 30, 2013, 2:01:03 PM8/30/13
to
On 8/30/13 8:12 AM, MiNe 109 wrote:
> Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
> I'm happy to hear them.
>
> Stephen
>
You have plenty of options to buy any Naxos CD. Why does this myth
> Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
> I'm happy to hear them.
>
> Stephen
>
perpetuate that they can't be bought from the US?
Steve
MiNe 109
Aug 30, 2013, 3:33:24 PM8/30/13
to
In article <kvqeq9$8en$1...@dont-email.me>,
qualities of the original transfer. I haven't heard his BD player or his
old cd player, so I couldn't guess. I have heard the Schnabel cds on
several players and can confirm the general ill-opinion.
Stephen
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "MiNe 109" wrote in message
> news:smcelroy2-112D4...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
>
> In article <kvq40n$d4s$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like
> >> a marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
>
> > The EMI Schabel Beethoven cd transfers are notorious and have
> > been the subject of much discussion over the years. 'marimba-like'
> > is one of the kinder descriptions! I'm almost tempted to re-listen
> > on my current system.
>
> But the original poster was talking about apparent differences //in the sound
> of the disk players//.
>
> If the CD transfer //really does// make the piano sound like a marimba, then
> the Blu-ray player is the inaccurate player, and is degrading the disks'
> fidelity.
Something about the implementation could be reducing the unpleasant
> "MiNe 109" wrote in message
> news:smcelroy2-112D4...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
>
> In article <kvq40n$d4s$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> If your other player really does make the Bechstein "sound like
> >> a marimba", it must be an awful-sounding player.
>
> > The EMI Schabel Beethoven cd transfers are notorious and have
> > been the subject of much discussion over the years. 'marimba-like'
> > is one of the kinder descriptions! I'm almost tempted to re-listen
> > on my current system.
>
> But the original poster was talking about apparent differences //in the sound
> of the disk players//.
>
> If the CD transfer //really does// make the piano sound like a marimba, then
> the Blu-ray player is the inaccurate player, and is degrading the disks'
> fidelity.
qualities of the original transfer. I haven't heard his BD player or his
old cd player, so I couldn't guess. I have heard the Schnabel cds on
several players and can confirm the general ill-opinion.
Stephen
MiNe 109
Aug 30, 2013, 3:51:10 PM8/30/13
to
In article <0_mdnaw6wf0mQL3P...@giganews.com>,
It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
to possible copyright restrictions."
Stephen
I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
to possible copyright restrictions."
Stephen
td
Aug 30, 2013, 6:25:57 PM8/30/13
to
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:18:18 PM UTC-4, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
Finally someone has discovered Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas on their EMI transfers. I thought I was the only one able to enjoy these.
Mind you, I also enjoy many other versions of these 78 RPM originals. They all betray the same characteristics, faults and assets. Nobody has ever pointed to a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less surface noise.
I would repeat, for those who have not heard this lecture before, that I have been listening to these since the 1940s and have yet to discover anything new in these readings. They are what they have always been everywhere you find them and at whatever price your little heart can afford.
TD
weary flake
Aug 31, 2013, 11:30:49 AM8/31/13
to
or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters it by adding
fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the result, at least
initially. Myself, I *hate* what I call "video sound" and keep
my audio and video systems (neither are but cheap) 100% separate,
and if I had his system I would dig through his expensive Blu-ray
system to turn off audio "enhancements" wherever I could find them.
Edward A. Cowan
Aug 31, 2013, 12:28:35 PM8/31/13
to
On Saturday, August 31, 2013 10:30:49 AM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
I cannot locate any such audio settings on my BD player. I do use the "Stereo" mode from my receiver, but I do not have a surround system (any more -- there used to be one at a previous address, where I did not have this BD player). I do not detect any "degrading" from the BD player. Besides, since the formerly heard "marimba" effect is gone, I'm enjoying Schnabel's Beethoven all the more -- more than ever, in fact. --E.A.C.
William Sommerwerck
Aug 31, 2013, 1:16:00 PM8/31/13
to
"weary flake" wrote in message
news:wearyflake-F29AE...@news.giganews.com...
> All I can guess is his Blu-ray player has some audio settings,
> Myself, I *hate* what I call "video sound" and keep my audio
> and video systems (neither are [???] but cheap) 100% separate,
I have a single, very-high-quality 6.1 system (no center-front) that works
beautifully for audio and video. It sounds great with any good program
material -- sound recordings or films.
All music recordings -- mono and stereo -- are enhanced with ambience
generated by a hall synthesizer (JVC or Yamaha) and played through side and
rear speakers. The front channels are unprocessed.
news:wearyflake-F29AE...@news.giganews.com...
> All I can guess is his Blu-ray player has some audio settings,
> default or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters
> it by adding fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the
> result, at least initially.
I've never heard of such a thing.
> it by adding fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the
> result, at least initially.
> Myself, I *hate* what I call "video sound" and keep my audio
> and if I had his system I would dig through his expensive Blu-ray
> system to turn off audio "enhancements" wherever I could find them.
I know of no such "enhancements".
> system to turn off audio "enhancements" wherever I could find them.
I have a single, very-high-quality 6.1 system (no center-front) that works
beautifully for audio and video. It sounds great with any good program
material -- sound recordings or films.
All music recordings -- mono and stereo -- are enhanced with ambience
generated by a hall synthesizer (JVC or Yamaha) and played through side and
rear speakers. The front channels are unprocessed.
max197...@gmail.com
Aug 31, 2013, 2:06:32 PM8/31/13
to
-Max
Willem Orange
Aug 31, 2013, 3:39:24 PM8/31/13
to
George
Aug 31, 2013, 5:04:48 PM8/31/13
to
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/lvppl6vj4omdj/Schnabel_Beethoven_Samples
(It's labeled Shinseido)
George
Willem Orange
Aug 31, 2013, 6:03:32 PM8/31/13
to
Edward A. Cowan
Aug 31, 2013, 8:17:16 PM8/31/13
to
The EMI set seems to have filtered-out as much of the 78rpm surface noise as was possible. From what I can hear from the CDs, this filtering has not diminished the brilliance of the higher notes to be heard from Schnabel's Bechstein piano. (At first, I had attributed to the remastering the lack of upper partials in the sound of Schnabel's recordings, but now I sort of doubt that.)
Do Bechstein pianos still exist? Do any prominent pianists perform on such an instrument? For my ears, the sound of that piano has become a trademark (so to speak) of Schnabel's piano-playing. (He used a Steinway later in his post-WWII recordings, this according to the Schnabel discography in ARSC Journal, Vol. 18, Nov. 1-3 1986, pp. 80-143. The difference in the sound of the two pianos is very striking, the Steinway having a more "pearly" tone... --E.A.C.
Do Bechstein pianos still exist? Do any prominent pianists perform on such an instrument? For my ears, the sound of that piano has become a trademark (so to speak) of Schnabel's piano-playing. (He used a Steinway later in his post-WWII recordings, this according to the Schnabel discography in ARSC Journal, Vol. 18, Nov. 1-3 1986, pp. 80-143. The difference in the sound of the two pianos is very striking, the Steinway having a more "pearly" tone... --E.A.C.
david...@hotmail.com
Aug 31, 2013, 10:21:48 PM8/31/13
to
Edward A. Cowan
Aug 31, 2013, 10:56:59 PM8/31/13
to
Thanks for that link. It does explain quite a bit about the continuing uses of that particular make of piano (Bechstein). --E.A.C. (who once saw up close another piano in the lobby of the Vienna State Opera back in 1995: Gustav Mahler's Blüthner piano. On it was (I should guess) a copy of Rodin's bust of the composer. --E.A.C.
On Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:21:48 PM UTC-5, david...@hotmail.com wrote:
> http://bechstein.com/en/
On Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:21:48 PM UTC-5, david...@hotmail.com wrote:
> http://bechstein.com/en/
Frank Lekens
Sep 1, 2013, 5:33:05 AM9/1/13
to
are listening to him with one of these hdmi cables right here, because
otherwise how could you even consider. This must really be the bomb.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%27-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray/Black/2383276.p?id=1218324437192&skuId=2383276&ci_src=11138&AID=11066229&PID=6149513&SID=1pp577jow7e2x&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bestbuy.com%2Fsite%2FAudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%2527-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray%2FBlack%2F2383276.p%3Fid%3D1218324437192%26skuId%3D2383276%26ci_src%3D11138&ref=39&loc=01&CJPID=6149513#tab=reviews
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
Bob Harper
Sep 1, 2013, 3:46:54 PM9/1/13
to
On 9/1/13 2:33 AM, Frank Lekens wrote:
(snip)
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> Well, I don't know who this Schnabel guy is, but I sure hope youse
> guys are listening to him with one of these hdmi cables right here,
> because otherwise how could you even consider. This must really be
> the bomb.
>
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%27-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray/Black/2383276.p?id=1218324437192&skuId=2383276&ci_src=11138&AID=11066229&PID=6149513&SID=1pp577jow7e2x&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bestbuy.com%2Fsite%2FAudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%2527-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray%2FBlack%2F2383276.p%3Fid%3D1218324437192%26skuId%3D2383276%26ci_src%3D11138&ref=39&loc=01&CJPID=6149513#tab=reviews
>
>
Frank, you sound like one of those cable deniers :)
> Well, I don't know who this Schnabel guy is, but I sure hope youse
> guys are listening to him with one of these hdmi cables right here,
> because otherwise how could you even consider. This must really be
> the bomb.
>
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%27-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray/Black/2383276.p?id=1218324437192&skuId=2383276&ci_src=11138&AID=11066229&PID=6149513&SID=1pp577jow7e2x&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bestbuy.com%2Fsite%2FAudioQuest---Diamond-3.3%2527-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable---Dark-Gray%2FBlack%2F2383276.p%3Fid%3D1218324437192%26skuId%3D2383276%26ci_src%3D11138&ref=39&loc=01&CJPID=6149513#tab=reviews
>
>
Bob Harper
weary flake
Sep 1, 2013, 4:16:25 PM9/1/13
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "weary flake" wrote in message
> news:wearyflake-F29AE...@news.giganews.com...
>
> > All I can guess is his Blu-ray player has some audio settings,
> > default or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters
> > it by adding fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the
> > result, at least initially.
>
> I've never heard of such a thing.
Such sound settings are endemic, on players, receivers,
> "weary flake" wrote in message
> news:wearyflake-F29AE...@news.giganews.com...
>
> > All I can guess is his Blu-ray player has some audio settings,
> > default or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters
> > it by adding fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the
> > result, at least initially.
>
> I've never heard of such a thing.
TVs, etc. "Stereo surround" is what one of the bastards
are called, a switch or setting on some part of the audio
chain, perhaps the receiver on a "home theater" system.
> > Myself, I *hate* what I call "video sound" and keep my audio
> > and video systems (neither are [???] but cheap) 100% separate,
> > and if I had his system I would dig through his expensive Blu-ray
> > system to turn off audio "enhancements" wherever I could find them.
>
> I know of no such "enhancements".
> I have a single, very-high-quality 6.1 system (no center-front) that works
> beautifully for audio and video. It sounds great with any good program
> material -- sound recordings or films.
>
> All music recordings -- mono and stereo -- are enhanced with ambience
> generated by a hall synthesizer (JVC or Yamaha) and played through side and
> rear speakers. The front channels are unprocessed.
that way, the noise from your generated ambience interferes with
the sound from your front speakers, though you may like it on principle.
Schnabel CDs would sound better without the enhancements, or so I
speculate.
William Sommerwerck
Sep 1, 2013, 6:53:26 PM9/1/13
to
"weary flake" wrote in message
news:wearyflake-8D3A9...@news.giganews.com...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "weary flake" wrote in message
> news:wearyflake-F29AE...@news.giganews.com...
>>> All I can guess is his Blu-ray player has some audio settings,
>>> default or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters
>>> it by adding fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the
>>> result, at least initially.
>> I've never heard of such a thing.
> Such sound settings are endemic, on players, receivers,
> TVs, etc. "Stereo surround" is what one of the bastards
> are called, a switch or setting on some part of the audio
> chain, perhaps the receiver on a "home theater" system.
stereo recording, or decode encoded recordings, you have to deliberately
select the processing you want. Though many controllers can detect variations
of specific surround encodings (such as the multitude provided by Dolby),
there is no "this is mono, so I'm going to automatically alter function" on
any controller that I'm aware of.
>> I know of no such "enhancements".
> What you describe is such an enhancement:
>> I have a single, very-high-quality 6.1 system (no center-front) that works
>> beautifully for audio and video. It sounds great with any good program
>> material -- sound recordings or films.
>> All music recordings -- mono and stereo -- are enhanced with ambience
>> generated by a hall synthesizer (JVC or Yamaha) and played through side and
>> rear speakers. The front channels are unprocessed.
an off, pick the hall and its characteristics, etc.
> You may like it on principle, but of course your sound is degraded
> that way, the noise from your generated ambience interferes with
> the sound from your front speakers, though you may like it on principle.
> Schnabel CDs would sound better without the enhancements, or so I
> speculate.
material. It in no way interferes with the sound from the front speakers.
I wish you could hear what the //appropriate// use of synthesized of
synthesized ambience does for old recordings, especially mono recordings. The
recording sounds much newer -- as if it were made a decade or two later, with
a significant reduction in coloration. And because you're now adding lateral
ambience to the playback,, mono recordings now start sounding like stereo --
without screwing with the original sound in any.
If you've never a hall synthesizer properly use -- you simply don't know what
you're missing.
Edward A. Cowan
Sep 1, 2013, 10:43:27 PM9/1/13
to
You might start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artur_Schnabel
or here: http://www.naxos.com/person/Artur_Schnabel/1287.htm
or here: http://www.peermusicclassical.com/composer/composerdetail.cfm?detail=schnabel
or here: http://schnabelmusicfoundation.com/
His main contribution to recorded music is his complete set of the piano sonatas of Ludwig van Beethoven (EMI). To be sure, this is not his only such contribution, as you can determine from the links posted above. His legacy lives on in the work of many of his pupils, such as Leon Fleisher. On one of the last programs of "From The Recording Horn" (WFMT, Chicago), Fleisher offered his musical heritage: Fleisher was a pupil of Schnabel, who was a pupil of Leschetizky, who was a pupil of Carl Czerny, who was a pupil of Beethoven. (I hope I have that sequence right!) I should imagine that there are several web sites that offer links to some of his recordings. Enjoy. --E.A.C.
> Well, I don't know who this Schnabel guy is, but I sure hope youse guys
>
> are listening to him with one of these hdmi cables right here, because
>
> otherwise how could you even consider. This must really be the bomb.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
Oscar
Sep 2, 2013, 2:49:07 AM9/2/13
to
On Friday, August 30, 2013, td wrote:
>
> My goodness me.
>
> Finally someone has discovered Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas on their EMI
> transfers. I thought I was the only one able to enjoy these.
>
> Mind you, I also enjoy many other versions of these 78 RPM originals. They all
> betray the same characteristics, faults and assets. Nobody has ever pointed to
> a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less
> surface noise.
My goodness me.
>
> My goodness me.
>
> Finally someone has discovered Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas on their EMI
> transfers. I thought I was the only one able to enjoy these.
>
> Mind you, I also enjoy many other versions of these 78 RPM originals. They all
> betray the same characteristics, faults and assets. Nobody has ever pointed to
> a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less
> surface noise.
A blast from the past, here is the one and only Tom Deacon himself plugging 'pirate' 78 RPM transfers by Montreal-based St. Laurent Studios, AKA XXI-21. Of course, les bon hommes at St. Laurent have created their own 'best' Schnabel experience, taken from, as Deacond says, 'the same characteristics, faults and assets.' http://tinyurl.com/lboe6zq
On Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:23:37 AM UTC-8, pianomaven wrote:
>
> This set just arrived from www.amazon.ca.
>
> The transfers were made by an interesting outfit which may be of
> interest to many here: http://78experience.com
>
> Some material which I have not seen available before as well as lots I
> have. The guy responsible is apparently a teacher, father of 6, who
> has set up this business on the side and has a major collection to
> work with.
Wow, 6 children!! Some gay men down here derisively call such people 'breeders', you know.
> The Beethoven sound fine to my ears. Smooth as silk. I haven't got out
> the originals for comparison, but CDs win the day for convenience, of
> course. Incidentally, the original masters for these recordings
> survive in Hannover at the Emil Berlinerhaus. Not sure about the 35mm
> film masters, but they are probably there too. Not sure if DG has a
> machine to play them on, however.
Smooth as silk, eh? Haven't got out the originals for comparison?! HINT: 'Same characteristics, faults and assets.'
> So, if anyone is interested in this very straight-ahead set of
> Beethoven, they should not hesitate. The price is right, of course,
> about $35.
ReDiscovery's David Gideon later chimed in that the original Command reel-to-reel tapes produced much better sound than the LP transfers used by St. Laurent Studios.
On Thursday, November 17, 2011, david gideon wrote:
>
> Aren't these transfers from LPs? Some of their other CDs are. The
> Command LPs were nowhere near as good as their reel tape releases, used
> by Russ Oppenheim and by me for our Steinberg transfers. Also I had the
> impression the XXI-21 Steinbergs were unlicensed, unofficial releases
> of the sort you usually condemn. Have your changed your position on
> such releases, or only for this particular outfit?
Teedee's reply:
On Thursday, November 17, 2011, pianomaven wrote:
>
> I have no knowledge of the facts in this case. The products are for
> sale in retail. They come with full accreditation to the original
> producers, etc., and for all I know were done "with permission".
>
> This company would seem to be competition for you and your definitely
> pirate outfit, however, hence your keen interest in the matter.
FOR ALL I KNOW THEY WERE DONE WITH PERMISSION. Or, for that matter, all you don't know. Followed by the obligatory 'pirate' accusation toward the non-Frenchy American with Hebrew last name, who perhaps doesn't have as many as 6 little methane-producing, fossil-fuel consuming rug rats, either.
When provoked by Taffy Brendel about his astounding hypocrisy, Deacon swung back...with pathetic ignorance.
On Thursday, November 17, 2011, pianomaven wrote:
>
> You seem to think that 1) I live in the USA. Sorry, I live in Canada,
> where copyright issues are distinctly murky. Hence the origin of the
> WHRA materials. 2) That the appropriate permission was NOT granted for
> this issue. How can you make this judgment, as you don't have the set
> and don't know the outfit that released it?
Sure, Tom...
> I know one thing for sure, and that is that the set is nicely
> produced, beautifully packaged and sold in the retail (i.e.
> legitimate) marketplace. It is not an "under the counter" pirate
> product of the kind routinely churned out by the various sub rosa
> operators who come here to flog their wares.
Pirated merchandise is sold in 'legitimate' marketplaces all the time. Amazon anyone?
> I have contacted the producer himself, Yves St. Laurent, for more
> information about the transfers etc. He did the work for XXI-21 in
> Montreal, who, by the way, have an address, a place of business, a
> telephone number and all the normal accoutrements of a legitimate
> business. St. Laurent's own catalogue looks very interesting to me
> for one, as it includes things like 7 volumes of Medtner recordings
> involving the composer, some Tagliaferro from the 1930s and other
> interesting things as well as the standard Cortot, Schnabel, re-re-
> reissues.
And here we come full circle: Schnabel re-re-reissues. So what did Monsieur St. Laurent tell you? Are these legitimate reissues done with appropriate legal clearances and 'permission'...or not?? It's been two years now.
Frank Lekens
Sep 2, 2013, 8:21:13 AM9/2/13
to
richard...@gmail.com
Sep 2, 2013, 9:58:06 AM9/2/13
to
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:18:18 PM UTC-4, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> Recently, I have been very much enjoying rehearing, as for the first time, Schnabel's great recordings of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And I'm hearing them, for the first time (see below) from the EMI set of eight CDs (EMI CHS 7 63755 2).
>
>
>
> I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
>
>
>
> From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba! No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD, causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano. (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.) I have now listened to the contents of five of the 78rpm albums of sonatas, as follows:
>
>
>
> Vol. 7, sonatas 1, 10, 28
>
> Vol. 4, sonatas 2, 14, 26
>
> Vol. 8, sonatas 3, 17, 21
>
> Vol. 11, sonatas 4 and 16
>
> Vol. 12, sonatas 5, 7, 25
>
>
>
> (The full list may be found in vol. 1 of WERM, p.46, and also in César Saerchinger's biography of the pianist.
>
>
>
> Soon, I expect to listen to vol. 6, sonatas 6, 8, 18.
>
>
>
> The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression. (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise, but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable. It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me) much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time. If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
But as TD pointed out, since they were not in the USA there was no need for legal clearances etc.
>
>
>
> I am now hearing them via a BD player -- indeed, I now play audio CDs only with this unit (Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD). What I describe below might or might not derive from the pricey (four figures!) and fancy electronics of this player. Myself, I like to think it is the BD laser technology that is producing the kind of sound I will describe below, and that (probably) you might achieve the same thing by using just about any BD player, attached to your audio system. (It should be so attached if you mostly play DVDs with it, especially for watching movies.) FWIW, my speakers are by Paradigm.
>
>
>
> From this set I used to hear via a conventional CD player a piano sound stripped of its upper partials such that the Bechstein piano Schnabel uses sounded like a marimba! No longer! The BD player seems to "dig" for data in the CD, causeing Schnabel's instrument to sound like a real piano. (I wish I could further explain what I'm hearing, but I cannot but put forth my basic impression of what I am hearing.) I have now listened to the contents of five of the 78rpm albums of sonatas, as follows:
>
>
>
> Vol. 7, sonatas 1, 10, 28
>
> Vol. 4, sonatas 2, 14, 26
>
> Vol. 8, sonatas 3, 17, 21
>
> Vol. 11, sonatas 4 and 16
>
> Vol. 12, sonatas 5, 7, 25
>
>
>
> (The full list may be found in vol. 1 of WERM, p.46, and also in César Saerchinger's biography of the pianist.
>
>
>
> Soon, I expect to listen to vol. 6, sonatas 6, 8, 18.
>
>
>
> The piano tone I hear when playing these items via a BD player sounds like the full tone of a concert grand with no compression. (Yes, the remastering does remove most of the 78rpm surface noise, but I no longer hear the "marimba" sound that so often hitherto so altered the piano sound as to make the recordings unlistenable. It would seem that the BD technology is making audible more of the data on the CDs, thus making Schnabel's playing clearer and (for me) much more enjoyable than before, when I was using a conventional CD player. It is as though I were hearing Schnabel for the first time. If you have this set and have not yet tried listening to CDs via a BD player, give this a try. I think you will enjoy what you hear. --E.A.C.
Your remarks on parents are distasteful in the extreme, and quite uncalled for.
Willem Orange
Sep 2, 2013, 10:23:04 AM9/2/13
to
td
Sep 2, 2013, 1:04:26 PM9/2/13
to
On Monday, September 2, 2013 2:49:07 AM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> On Friday, August 30, 2013, td wrote:
>
> >
>
> > My goodness me.
>
> >
>
> > Finally someone has discovered Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas on their EMI
>
> > transfers. I thought I was the only one able to enjoy these.
>
> >
>
> > Mind you, I also enjoy many other versions of these 78 RPM originals. They all
>
> > betray the same characteristics, faults and assets. Nobody has ever pointed to
>
> > a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less
>
> > surface noise.
>
>
>
> My goodness me.
>
>
>
> A blast from the past, here is the one and only Tom D
(the rest of the post snipped)
> On Friday, August 30, 2013, td wrote:
>
> >
>
> > My goodness me.
>
> >
>
> > Finally someone has discovered Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas on their EMI
>
> > transfers. I thought I was the only one able to enjoy these.
>
> >
>
> > Mind you, I also enjoy many other versions of these 78 RPM originals. They all
>
> > betray the same characteristics, faults and assets. Nobody has ever pointed to
>
> > a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less
>
> > surface noise.
>
>
>
> My goodness me.
>
>
>
> A blast from the past, here is the one and only Tom D
It's been two years now.
Never spoken to Mr. St. Laurent, OR purchased one of the recordings on his label.
It must be that you have a bee in your bonnet. (we assume, of course, that you wear one)
TD
td
Sep 2, 2013, 1:06:52 PM9/2/13
to
> Your remarks on parents are distasteful in the extreme, and quite uncalled for.
Oh, I am not so sure. Parentage is very important in life. You are what your parents make you, no?
TD
John Wiser
Sep 2, 2013, 1:22:59 PM9/2/13
to
"td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:8d9f3a0f-6701-476b...@googlegroups.com...
jdw
news:8d9f3a0f-6701-476b...@googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, September 2, 2013 9:58:06 AM UTC-4, richard...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Your remarks on parents are distasteful in the extreme, and quite uncalled for.
>
> Oh, I am not so sure. Parentage is very important in life. You are what your parents make you, no?
>
No.
>
>> Your remarks on parents are distasteful in the extreme, and quite uncalled for.
>
> Oh, I am not so sure. Parentage is very important in life. You are what your parents make you, no?
>
jdw
td
Sep 2, 2013, 2:35:45 PM9/2/13
to
So, you can be an orphaned bastard and still be POTUS, I guess, John. Wonder why the Repugs go on so about Obama's parentage, then? They don't like blacks? Mixed kids? Bastards? Orphans? Seems Obama has not shaken any of those features of his life.
No, he is what his parents made him.
Impressive, I think.
TD
No, he is what his parents made him.
Impressive, I think.
TD
Willem Orange
Sep 2, 2013, 2:52:52 PM9/2/13
to
graham
Sep 2, 2013, 5:02:32 PM9/2/13
to
"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:337de24e-a9cf-4cca...@googlegroups.com...
"This be the verse"
By Philip Larkin
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
Willem Orange
Sep 2, 2013, 7:07:26 PM9/2/13
to
John Wiser
Sep 2, 2013, 9:01:57 PM9/2/13
to
"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b28fc7a4-b9c7-4410...@googlegroups.com...
jdw
Steve de Mena
Sep 3, 2013, 2:18:08 AM9/3/13
to
On 8/30/13 3:25 PM, td wrote:
> Nobody has ever pointed to a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less surface noise.
There were no pitch corrections made in any other transfer?
> Nobody has ever pointed to a single note that is different in any way other than that it has more or less surface noise.
> TD
>
Steve
Steve de Mena
Sep 3, 2013, 2:20:59 AM9/3/13
to
On 8/31/13 8:30 AM, weary flake wrote:
> All I can guess is his blu-ray player has some audio settings, default
Steve
> All I can guess is his blu-ray player has some audio settings, default
> or otherwise, that detects mono sound and then alters it by adding
> fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the result, at least
> initially.
Haven't heard of that CD capability on any Blu-Ray player.
> fake stereo/fake surround and then he likes the result, at least
> initially.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Sep 3, 2013, 2:23:27 AM9/3/13
to
On 8/30/13 12:51 PM, MiNe 109 wrote:
> In article <0_mdnaw6wf0mQL3P...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/30/13 8:12 AM, MiNe 109 wrote:
>>
>>> Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
>>> I'm happy to hear them.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>
>> You have plenty of options to buy any Naxos CD. Why does this myth
>> perpetuate that they can't be bought from the US?
>
> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>
> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
> to possible copyright restrictions."
>
> Stephen
>
Amazon US has many of these Naxos volumes and you can order them from
other countries. So it's a "myth" they are "not available" in the
United States. If I can sit here at my US computer and order them
than I can't see where I am restricted or blocked from ordering them.
Steve
> In article <0_mdnaw6wf0mQL3P...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/30/13 8:12 AM, MiNe 109 wrote:
>>
>>> Alright! The Naxos is on Spotify. Since I can't buy them domestically,
>>> I'm happy to hear them.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>
>> You have plenty of options to buy any Naxos CD. Why does this myth
>> perpetuate that they can't be bought from the US?
>
> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>
> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
> to possible copyright restrictions."
>
> Stephen
>
Amazon US has many of these Naxos volumes and you can order them from
other countries. So it's a "myth" they are "not available" in the
United States. If I can sit here at my US computer and order them
than I can't see where I am restricted or blocked from ordering them.
Steve
MiNe 109
Sep 3, 2013, 10:13:00 AM9/3/13
to
In article <QZadnefuSKWvHbjP...@giganews.com>,
You still can't order them directly from Naxos in the US, so the myth
isn't completely inaccurate. Ordering overseas or from resellers or that
Amazon has some special dispensation proves the rule, so to speak.
My guess on why the myth perpetuates: it was formerly true and purchase
still requires a workaround.
Stephen
isn't completely inaccurate. Ordering overseas or from resellers or that
Amazon has some special dispensation proves the rule, so to speak.
My guess on why the myth perpetuates: it was formerly true and purchase
still requires a workaround.
Stephen
Kepler
Sep 4, 2013, 11:23:20 AM9/4/13
to
My favorite transfer of these recordings is the sadly out-of-print set on Pearl, transferred by Seth Winner. I first listened to these on the 1970s Seraphim LPs; the records themselves are in storage, but I've kept the booklets that accompanied them, with extremely informative essays about each piece; if I remember correctly these were written for the original 78 rpm sets.
Kepler
Kepler
Edward A. Cowan
Sep 4, 2013, 11:31:05 AM9/4/13
to
See the link below for the published book edition of Eric Blom's annotations for Beethoven's piano sonatas. These were the notes that accompanied the 78rpm (and LP) editions of Schnabel's recodings of them. (NOTE: I don't have the book edition. After I had purchased the last of the single-LP edition of the Schnabel recordings, my dealer presented me a free copy of the large booklet (I know that's a self-contradictory term!) that came with the complete album of these same recordings. To be sure, the notes for the individual sonatas also came with the individual LPs of them in that Angel COLH series. --E.A.C.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Beethoven_s_pianoforte_sonatas_discussed.html?id=EGUJAQAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books/about/Beethoven_s_pianoforte_sonatas_discussed.html?id=EGUJAQAAMAAJ
td
Sep 6, 2013, 5:28:58 AM9/6/13
to
No, the major criticism - ignorant though it be - of the EMI transfers is that they eliminate the surface noise. It is ignorant because EMI had access to vinyl pressings made from the originals, thus reducing the noise of the music. Needless to say, the die-hard EMI bashers claim that they "hear" music in all that noise. Hmmmmmm. And they are also the ones who bought all those expensive speaker wires too.
I have no idea what happened to the OP, but he seems to have had his ears cleared out. Or, as DK would have said, a new set of ears. And now Schnabel sounds wonderful, or, shall we say, just as he has always sounded, of course, on any and all transfers of these rather pathetic examples of the "art of the 78 RPM" recording system.
This is a very tired subject, by the way. We have exhausted it.
TD
td
Sep 6, 2013, 5:31:35 AM9/6/13
to
On Wednesday, September 4, 2013 11:31:05 AM UTC-4, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> See the link below for the published book edition of Eric Blom's annotations for Beethoven's piano sonatas. These were the notes that accompanied the 78rpm (and LP) editions of Schnabel's recodings of them. (NOTE: I don't have the book edition. After I had purchased the last of the single-LP edition of the Schnabel recordings, my dealer presented me a free copy of the large booklet (I know that's a self-contradictory term!) that came with the complete album of these same recordings. To be sure, the notes for the individual sonatas also came with the individual LPs of them in that Angel COLH series. --E.A.C.
Ah, those were the days!
> See the link below for the published book edition of Eric Blom's annotations for Beethoven's piano sonatas. These were the notes that accompanied the 78rpm (and LP) editions of Schnabel's recodings of them. (NOTE: I don't have the book edition. After I had purchased the last of the single-LP edition of the Schnabel recordings, my dealer presented me a free copy of the large booklet (I know that's a self-contradictory term!) that came with the complete album of these same recordings. To be sure, the notes for the individual sonatas also came with the individual LPs of them in that Angel COLH series. --E.A.C.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 7, 2013, 2:38:59 AM9/7/13
to
Sorry I never did get around to replying to your email (there has been much
to do around the apartment, even since the honeymoon!), but I am intrigued
that you were apparently able to get the silk-purse treatment out of what so
many of us had for so long regarded as a sow's ear.
I'm still sticking with my Naxos CDs, though.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
to do around the apartment, even since the honeymoon!), but I am intrigued
that you were apparently able to get the silk-purse treatment out of what so
many of us had for so long regarded as a sow's ear.
I'm still sticking with my Naxos CDs, though.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 7, 2013, 2:39:00 AM9/7/13
to
max197...@gmail.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:4ae9705e-c064-4c3c...@googlegroups.com:
> Has anyone listened to the Japanese EMI edition (on CD)? How does it
> compare with the Pearl? Dk swore by the Japanese EMI LP pressings as far
> superior to all other transfers.
Well, the Japanese edition has the Op. 119 Bagatelles, doesn't it?
typed in news:4ae9705e-c064-4c3c...@googlegroups.com:
> Has anyone listened to the Japanese EMI edition (on CD)? How does it
> compare with the Pearl? Dk swore by the Japanese EMI LP pressings as far
> superior to all other transfers.
Well, the Japanese edition has the Op. 119 Bagatelles, doesn't it?
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 7, 2013, 2:39:00 AM9/7/13
to
*applause*
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 7, 2013, 2:39:00 AM9/7/13
to
MiNe 109 <smce...@POPaustin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-36D4F8.14511030082013@
5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>
> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
> to possible copyright restrictions."
It's not as though the suits at EMI are going to go to any effort to enforce
their copyright in classical music recordings now. And Warner Music is too
busy sucking blood from all segments of pop music now to even care.
Then again, if ever there were anyone who would be capable to taking the
worst parts of the DMCA, putting it between the pincers of a pair of pliers,
and squeezing it very, very, hard, that would be Jeff Bezos.
letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-36D4F8.14511030082013@
5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>
> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
> to possible copyright restrictions."
their copyright in classical music recordings now. And Warner Music is too
busy sucking blood from all segments of pop music now to even care.
Then again, if ever there were anyone who would be capable to taking the
worst parts of the DMCA, putting it between the pincers of a pair of pliers,
and squeezing it very, very, hard, that would be Jeff Bezos.
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 7, 2013, 2:39:00 AM9/7/13
to
Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> And you can come from a humanistic home filled with art and music and
> grow up to be Reinhard Heydrich - did his parents do that???? As a
> person grows they can either accept and assimilate what his parents
> tried to instill in him, he can dump everything they said or it can be a
> combination of both. Life isn't so simple.
I object in the strongest possible terms to a comparison of Tom Deacon with a
Nazi official. And no, this isn't a set-up for a joke, either, although it
IS a set-up for a more standard putdown of Deacon. He may be a vile,
spitefil, vindictive, and narcissistic person, but Deacon is no Nazi.
letters to be typed in
news:337de24e-a9cf-4cca...@googlegroups.com:
> And you can come from a humanistic home filled with art and music and
> grow up to be Reinhard Heydrich - did his parents do that???? As a
> person grows they can either accept and assimilate what his parents
> tried to instill in him, he can dump everything they said or it can be a
> combination of both. Life isn't so simple.
Nazi official. And no, this isn't a set-up for a joke, either, although it
IS a set-up for a more standard putdown of Deacon. He may be a vile,
spitefil, vindictive, and narcissistic person, but Deacon is no Nazi.
Steve de Mena
Sep 7, 2013, 6:14:23 AM9/7/13
to
On 9/6/13 11:39 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> MiNe 109 <smce...@POPaustin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-36D4F8.14511030082013@
> 5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
>
>> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
>> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>>
>> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
>> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
>> to possible copyright restrictions."
>
> It's not as though the suits at EMI are going to go to any effort to enforce
> their copyright in classical music recordings now. And Warner Music is too
> busy sucking blood from all segments of pop music now to even care.
>
> Then again, if ever there were anyone who would be capable to taking the
> worst parts of the DMCA, putting it between the pincers of a pair of pliers,
> and squeezing it very, very, hard, that would be Jeff Bezos.
>
It's a non issue. I can order any of these titles within minutes from
> MiNe 109 <smce...@POPaustin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-36D4F8.14511030082013@
> 5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
>
>> It's been so long since I was interested I didn't keep up with the news.
>> I don't know how it is that Amazon is offering them.
>>
>> Perhaps the myth stems from the fact that they couldn't be sold in the
>> United States. Naxos still says, "Not available in the United States due
>> to possible copyright restrictions."
>
> It's not as though the suits at EMI are going to go to any effort to enforce
> their copyright in classical music recordings now. And Warner Music is too
> busy sucking blood from all segments of pop music now to even care.
>
> Then again, if ever there were anyone who would be capable to taking the
> worst parts of the DMCA, putting it between the pincers of a pair of pliers,
> and squeezing it very, very, hard, that would be Jeff Bezos.
>
the comfort of my home.
Steve
td
Sep 10, 2013, 6:03:38 AM9/10/13
to
On Saturday, September 7, 2013 2:39:00 AM UTC-4, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>
> letters to be typed in
>
> news:337de24e-a9cf-4cca...@googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > And you can come from a humanistic home filled with art and music and
>
> > grow up to be Reinhard Heydrich - did his parents do that???? As a
>
> > person grows they can either accept and assimilate what his parents
>
> > tried to instill in him, he can dump everything they said or it can be a
>
> > combination of both. Life isn't so simple.
>
>
>
> I object in the strongest possible terms to a comparison of Tom Deacon with a
>
> Nazi official. And no, this isn't a set-up for a joke, either, although it
>
> IS a set-up for a more standard putdown of Deacon. He may be a vile,
>
> spitefil, vindictive, and narcissistic person, but Deacon is no Nazi.
I object in the strongest terms for any comparisons between Matthew B. Tepper and a sloth.
> Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>
> letters to be typed in
>
> news:337de24e-a9cf-4cca...@googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > And you can come from a humanistic home filled with art and music and
>
> > grow up to be Reinhard Heydrich - did his parents do that???? As a
>
> > person grows they can either accept and assimilate what his parents
>
> > tried to instill in him, he can dump everything they said or it can be a
>
> > combination of both. Life isn't so simple.
>
>
>
> I object in the strongest possible terms to a comparison of Tom Deacon with a
>
> Nazi official. And no, this isn't a set-up for a joke, either, although it
>
> IS a set-up for a more standard putdown of Deacon. He may be a vile,
>
> spitefil, vindictive, and narcissistic person, but Deacon is no Nazi.
Everyone here is fully aware that Tepper is a lazy, monomaniacal, petty, ignorant, self-styled guru. A wart on the ass of progress. But not a sloth.
TD
I
td
Sep 10, 2013, 6:05:40 AM9/10/13
to
On Saturday, September 7, 2013 2:38:59 AM UTC-4, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Sorry I never did get around to replying to your email (there has been much
>
> to do around the apartment, even since the honeymoon!),
Waiting for the divorce.
> Sorry I never did get around to replying to your email (there has been much
>
> to do around the apartment, even since the honeymoon!),
How long does anyone here think it will take some broad to discover what she saddled herself to. Unless, of course, the she is a he. It's California, after all.
TD
Willem Orange
Sep 10, 2013, 7:01:48 AM9/10/13
to
O
Sep 10, 2013, 9:25:34 AM9/10/13
to
td
Sep 10, 2013, 11:03:41 AM9/10/13
to
TD
Oscar
Sep 10, 2013, 1:46:13 PM9/10/13
to
On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:05:40 AM, td wrote:
>
> Waiting for the divorce.
>
> How long does anyone here think it will take some broad to discover what
> she saddled herself to. Unless, of course, the she is a he. It's California, after all.
Saddest thing is this proclamation — on the Internet, forever — is that there is nary a strain of credulity in reading it. 'Memba this?
>
> Waiting for the divorce.
>
> How long does anyone here think it will take some broad to discover what
> she saddled herself to. Unless, of course, the she is a he. It's California, after all.
On Oct 30 2007, 5:25 pm, td wrote:
>
> > It has just been relayed to me that John Wilson, frequent contributer to the
> > ng, expert on Toscanini and Bruno Walter and many other things, passed away
> > overnight. John was a regular attendee of the annual Brucknerthons (I last
> > saw him Sep 1), and was always a source of great stories and opinions. We
> > are the poorer without him.
>
> Well, I would be the last person to wish death upon anyone - unlike
> our house duck Tepper - but I have to say that after several run-ins
> with Mr. Wilson over the years, I won't miss his commentary.
>
> He probably died believing that he knew how to spell anti-semitic!!!
>
> Yes indeed. RIP. And GR as well.
Tom sure is fixated on Mr. Tepper. Why come?
td
Sep 10, 2013, 5:40:45 PM9/10/13
to
On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 1:46:13 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> Tom sure is fixated on Mr. Tepper. Why come?
Wrong. But since the very first day my spaceship landed on this planet, about ten years ago now, Tepper was here berating some newbie for some question that he dared to ask, snipping and sniping at him as though he had no right to ask the question unless he was downright stupid.
> Tom sure is fixated on Mr. Tepper. Why come?
There are, of course, no dumb questions, only dumb answers, and Tepper has this part of the equation down pat.
He has since gone on to bigger and greater monstrosities, of course, and never once have I backed off, but always called him on it and everything else, specially his attitude, which is appalling. And then there is the incessant whining about "the majors" and the real fixation he has had on Peter Gelb. Not one of my favourite people either, but hell, there are lots worth. Can we start with Tepper? The guy has never forgiven the industry for not hiring to do diddly-squat, regardless of his many offers of "help".
Tepper early on decided to "plonk" me, thus eliminating my posts from his newsreader. But he still gets to read most of what I write while all the while claiming he doesn't, of course. He's also a hypocrite in that regard. It became so annoying that he called for others to "plonk" me too. Most just ignored his advice. In any event it makes no nevermind.
A royal wart on the ass of progress.
One wishes his wife well, of course. And ultimately rid of the beast she has made the mistake of hitching up with. What did she ever do to deserve that?
TD
Bozo
Sep 10, 2013, 7:16:01 PM9/10/13
to
>On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 6:01:48 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
> Jesus.
??? He has never posted here, nor likely to do so anytime soon. RMCR is the circle Dante would have written about had he known.
> Jesus.
??? He has never posted here, nor likely to do so anytime soon. RMCR is the circle Dante would have written about had he known.
Willem Orange
Sep 10, 2013, 8:27:27 PM9/10/13
to
Edward A. Cowan
Sep 12, 2013, 11:13:47 AM9/12/13
to
On Tuesday and Wednesday evenings just past (Sept. 10 and 11), I finished listening to the remaining LvB sonatas performed by Artur Schnabel, this with the contents of the following original 78rpm sets (heard from the EMI CD reissue of these recordings):
Vol. 5, nos. 12 and 21, "Waldstein"
Vol. 10, no. 29, "Hammerklavier"
The "Waldstein" must be one of Schnabel's finest performances, especially given the brilliant performance of the 3rd mvt. He uses a lot of sustaining pedal here, but the effect is that of an enormous water fountain spraying water all over the place. (That's a subjective image, I admit, but that's what Schnabel's playing brought to mind.)
The "Hammerklavier" seems to have been a terrible obstacle-course for Schnabel, as his performance is often sloppy. (Haggin noted this as well.) Personally, I prefer Backhaus in this one, as he adopts more moderate tempi overall (to be sure, LvB posits half-note = 138 for the opening allegro (Schirmer Urtext score, vol. 2, p.147) Now I must find out whether there exists an online metronome to check this one out. (Perhaps there might even be a working Maelzel metronome online? We'll see.) --E.A.C.
Vol. 5, nos. 12 and 21, "Waldstein"
Vol. 10, no. 29, "Hammerklavier"
The "Waldstein" must be one of Schnabel's finest performances, especially given the brilliant performance of the 3rd mvt. He uses a lot of sustaining pedal here, but the effect is that of an enormous water fountain spraying water all over the place. (That's a subjective image, I admit, but that's what Schnabel's playing brought to mind.)
The "Hammerklavier" seems to have been a terrible obstacle-course for Schnabel, as his performance is often sloppy. (Haggin noted this as well.) Personally, I prefer Backhaus in this one, as he adopts more moderate tempi overall (to be sure, LvB posits half-note = 138 for the opening allegro (Schirmer Urtext score, vol. 2, p.147) Now I must find out whether there exists an online metronome to check this one out. (Perhaps there might even be a working Maelzel metronome online? We'll see.) --E.A.C.
Lionel Tacchini
Sep 12, 2013, 12:34:31 PM9/12/13
to
On 12.09.2013 17:13, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> The "Hammerklavier" seems to have been a terrible obstacle-course for
> Schnabel, as his performance is often sloppy. (Haggin noted this as
> well.) Personally, I prefer Backhaus in this one, as he adopts more
> moderate tempi overall (to be sure, LvB posits half-note = 138 for
> the opening allegro (Schirmer Urtext score, vol. 2, p.147) Now I must
> find out whether there exists an online metronome to check this one
> out. (Perhaps there might even be a working Maelzel metronome online?
> We'll see.) --E.A.C.
This is the right tempo for the piece, it makes the music come out most
> The "Hammerklavier" seems to have been a terrible obstacle-course for
> Schnabel, as his performance is often sloppy. (Haggin noted this as
> well.) Personally, I prefer Backhaus in this one, as he adopts more
> moderate tempi overall (to be sure, LvB posits half-note = 138 for
> the opening allegro (Schirmer Urtext score, vol. 2, p.147) Now I must
> find out whether there exists an online metronome to check this one
> out. (Perhaps there might even be a working Maelzel metronome online?
> We'll see.) --E.A.C.
eloquently amidst a flurry of ornaments. The trouble is that barely
anyone is either capable of playing it that way or of resisting the
pressure of the "slower is deeper" religion.
Here's what an accelerated modern recording on piano-forte sounds like
at Beethoven's tempo: http://tinyurl.com/oesxrj8
--
Lionel Tacchini
"Ach, Du lieber Augustin, alles ist hin ..."
abach...@verizon.net
Sep 12, 2013, 1:11:04 PM9/12/13
to
AB
Bozo
Sep 12, 2013, 2:05:59 PM9/12/13
to
>On Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:34:31 AM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> This is the right tempo for the piece,
Schiff agrees with you, and consulted LvB's metronome :
> This is the right tempo for the piece,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5f8yAnGik ( First 12 minutes or so )
Lionel Tacchini
Sep 12, 2013, 2:39:03 PM9/12/13
to
I didn't consult the metronome but knew when I heard Schnabel that he
was right, albeit a little challenged. The music suddenly "worked".
Bozo
Sep 12, 2013, 9:07:30 PM9/12/13
to
>On Thursday, September 12, 2013 1:39:03 PM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> I didn't consult the metronome but knew when I heard Schnabel that he
>
> was right, albeit a little challenged.
One thing I have always admired about Schnabel is his insistence in following the composer's dictates even when Schnabel's technique not up to the task ; eg., he does not slow down,usually. Sometimes a disaster ( Brahms 2nd Pico with Boult ), but more often not, even though some have no patience for his lapses ( yet, Cortot seems to often get a free pass ? ).
> I didn't consult the metronome but knew when I heard Schnabel that he
>
> was right, albeit a little challenged.
I'll bet LvB would have given much to play "Hammerklavier" as does Schnabel, misses and all.
Al Eisner
Sep 13, 2013, 5:31:52 PM9/13/13
to
and I love this performance, despite the fact that he can't entirely
manage it at this tempo (there's also a bad flub right at the start,
as I recall). And did anyone play the slow movement any better?
(But I find his tempo for the fugue less convincing.)
--
Al Eisner
Matthew B. Tepper
Sep 25, 2013, 11:38:38 PM9/25/13
to
MiNe 109 <smce...@POPaustin.rr.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-490814.09130003092013@
5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
> In article <QZadnefuSKWvHbjP...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
>> Amazon US has many of these Naxos volumes and you can order them from
>> other countries. So it's a "myth" they are "not available" in the United
>> States. If I can sit here at my US computer and order them than I
>> can't see where I am restricted or blocked from ordering them.
>
> You still can't order them directly from Naxos in the US, so the myth
> isn't completely inaccurate. Ordering overseas or from resellers or that
> Amazon has some special dispensation proves the rule, so to speak.
>
> My guess on why the myth perpetuates: it was formerly true and purchase
> still requires a workaround.
>
> Stephen
In the immediate pre-internet days, I used the workaround of ordering such
forbidden fruit from Music and Arts to be sent to a friend of mine then
working at the Canadian Consulate in Los Angeles. This worked perfectly.
following letters to be typed in news:smcelroy2-490814.09130003092013@
5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
> In article <QZadnefuSKWvHbjP...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
>> Amazon US has many of these Naxos volumes and you can order them from
>> other countries. So it's a "myth" they are "not available" in the United
>> States. If I can sit here at my US computer and order them than I
>> can't see where I am restricted or blocked from ordering them.
>
> You still can't order them directly from Naxos in the US, so the myth
> isn't completely inaccurate. Ordering overseas or from resellers or that
> Amazon has some special dispensation proves the rule, so to speak.
>
> My guess on why the myth perpetuates: it was formerly true and purchase
> still requires a workaround.
>
> Stephen
In the immediate pre-internet days, I used the workaround of ordering such
forbidden fruit from Music and Arts to be sent to a friend of mine then
working at the Canadian Consulate in Los Angeles. This worked perfectly.
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