new Pierre Boulez Edition Sony - 'inferior' or not?
Gerard
3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
Var�se, Webern, Messiaen, Dukas, Roussel, Falla, Carter, Scriabin.
Because the Concerto for Orchestra of Bartok is not included, it's not "the
complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
A listing can be found at:
I've bought one of the box (Mahler/Wagner - because of Das Klagende Lied).
No dates of remastering have been given in the booklet.
I was wondering if the Debussy items have the same sound quality as the earlier
Boulez Edition, or the (later) remasterings in the "Great recordings" series (Mr
Gable complained about the far inferior remastering of these).
William Sommerwerck
> it's not "the complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
Strictly speaking, it's not a Sony recording, it's a Columbia Masterworks
recording.
Are there any Masterworks recordings in these sets?
Gerard
What - or which - are the "Masterworks recordings"?
William Sommerwerck
>>> it's not "the complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
>> Strictly speaking, it's not a Sony recording, it's a Columbia
>> Masterworks recording.
>> Are there any Masterworks recordings in these sets?
> What -- or which -- are the "Masterworks recordings"?
Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
Paul Goldstein
says...
I can't think of any Boulez recordings that were originally issued by Sony. All
of his great recordings with the NYP, for example, originally appeared as
Columbia LPs. So a new Sony Boulez edition must consist entirely (unless there
are some exceptions that I can't think of) of what Sommerwerck calls
"Masterworks recordings."
Gerard
In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS = Columbia).
This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
Gerard
As far as I have know "Masterworks" recordings (on LP), these were made by CBS
(now on Sony) and issued in a special series called "Masterworks" - "CBS
Masterworks".
td
wrote:
It wasn't really a question. Just a point. Moreover, this point is
very old: 25 years old?
TD
William Sommerwerck
>> Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
> In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS = Columbia).
> This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
> But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
It does. The CfO "ought" to be in that set.
William Sommerwerck
> these were made by CBS (now on Sony) and issued in a
> special series called "Masterworks" - "CBS Masterworks".
I seem to remember that at one time it was called "Columbia Masterworks".
Regardless, I don't think any new recordings were labelled "Columbia
Masterworks" or "CBS Masterworks" after Sony took the reins.
Gerard
No, that was _before_ Sony was involved.
Gerard
Agreed. But I cannot find information that it does contain the Concerto for
Orchestra.
The information I've found, does not go further than this:
"Bartok: Four orchestral pieces, Three village scenes, The Miraculous Mandarin,
The Wooden Prince, Music for strings, percussion and celesta, Dance suite, Duke
Bluebeard�s Castle. Scriabin: Le po�me de l�extase."
GP49
days as a radio network. For many years it owned Columbia Records,
which issued its classical releases as "Columbia Masterworks" so as to
differentiate them from its popular music issues and the budget
classics issued as "Harmony."
But the whole story is far more complicated.
In Europe and Britain, the "Columbia" trademark could not be used by
USA Columbia for much of the phonograph era, as it belonged to EMI in
the UK since 1931. This began when Columbia Phonograph, a USA
company, sold off its British operations as "Columbia Graphophone" in
1922. When Columbia Phonograph (USA) went bankrupt in 1923, its
former British subsidiary bought it and merged both USA and UK
Columbia again. When Columbia Graphophone merged with the Gramophone
Company in 1931, the US forced divestiture of the American operations
under antitrust laws, and Columbia in the USA was sold to Grigsby-
Grunow, a radio manufacturer. USA and UK Columbia continued to cross-
issue many of the same recordings exported from the other's country.
In fact most of UK Columbia's output was originally USA Columbia
material; EMI preferred to keep most of its original output on its
other major label, the Gramophone Company's HMV (His Master's Voice).
When EMI distribution of USA Columbia ceased due to USA Columbia's
deal with Philips, UK Columbia became EMI's pop label, with most
classical records (with the notable exception of the many Otto
Klemperer records) being on HMV.
In the USA, Grigsby-Grunow went under in 1934. Its remaining record
operations were sold to American Record Company. In 1938, American
Record was bought by Columbia Broadcasting System, which had
originally been founded by Columbia Records in 1927 but had since sold
off its interest in CBS. The 1938 purchase marked the second time
Columbia (the USA record label) was bought up by a former, spun-off
subsidiary bearing the Columbia name.
In the early 1950s, USA Columbia shifted its British distribution from
EMI to Philips. EMI formed Angel Records for USA distribution of
classical records. In 1955, EMI bought the American company Capitol
Records and Angel was merged into Capitol.
In 1964, USA Columbia under CBS ownership bought the British label
Oriole Records and from it, formed CBS Records as its British/European
subsidiary, ending Philips distribution.
Meanwhile EMI had mostly phased out the Columbia name in the UK, but
continued to use it in some other countries. In 1990, EMI sold its
rights to the Columbia trademark to Sony Music Entertainment, which
already owned USA Columbia Records. The Columbia trademark finally
was legally transferred to Sony in 1993.
Columbia Masterworks dates back to 1927 when it was introduced by USA
Columbia under British ownership as its classical line. In 1932,
Columbia under Grigsby-Grunow introduced the Royal Blue Record, with
matching blue shellac and label. This lasted until 1936; original
Royal Blues are much sought out today by collectors. When Royal Blues
were discontinued, the blue label was retained by Columbia for a time
for all its records; when Columbia adopted a red label for pops
records, the blue label was assigned exclusively to its classical
Masterworks records, until Masterworks labels became first green for a
short time, and then grey, well into the LP/stereo era.
Note that the use of "UK Columbia" and "USA Columbia" does not denote
any official use of those names, but was necessary to keep the actors
straight as the story was told!
pgaron
wrote:
> Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in "black" boxes with
> 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
> Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
>
Question for the Boulez experts: Which of these sets are especially
recommendable?
pgaron
> Because the Concerto for Orchestra of Bartok is not included, it's not "the
> complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
>
> A listing can be found at:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_22?url=search-alias%3Dpopula...
david...@aol.com
anthology of all the recordings Boulez ever made for CBS or Sony, it’s
not quite complete, and the new compilation didn’t require the least
imagination from its compilers. With exactly one exception, what the
compilers have done is to take the recordings that were already issued
in a previous Sony Boulez edition and group them within multiple-CD
sets, which meant lumping some composers together within rather
heterogeneous groups. (Evidence that the compilers didn't cast their
net any further than the previous Boulez edition is the otherwise
inexplicable exclusion of two of Boulez's most popular recordings,
recordings of the complete Firebird and Bartók's Concerto for
Orchestra with the NYP.) Disappointingly, they’ve missed the
opportunity finally to issue everything that Boulez ever recorded for
CBS or Sony in one complete edition, which could have been
accomplished easily enough within the framework of this new one. It’s
my guess that the transfers used in the new edition are the same
transfers used in the previous Sony Boulez Edition, but I don’t know
that for certain. For the record the one recording that was first
released on Sony rather than CBS was an anthology of works by Luciano
Berio with the Ensemble InterContemporain.
To the best of my knowledge, here’s a list of recordings EXCLUDED from
the new edition:
I. Recordings made for CBS but never released:
Mahler: Lieder eines fahrended Gesellen (Barry McDaniel, BBC SO)
Debussy: Martyre de Saint Sébastien, symphonic fragments (NYP)
II. Recordings released on LP but never reissued on CD:
Berg: Seven Early Songs (Heather Harper, BBC SO)
Berg: Altenberglieder (Halina Łukomska, BBC SO)
Berg: Three Orchestral Pieces, op. 6 (BBC SO, the second recording
originally [P] 1986)
III. Recordings reissued on CD in France but nowhere else:
Mahler: Symphony no. 10, Adagio (LSO)
IV. Recordings reissued on CD in Japan but nowhere else:
Beethoven: Symphony no. 5 (New Philharmonia)
Boulez: Le marteau san maître (Minton, Ensemble Musique Vivante)
V. Recordings issued or reissued on CD by CBS but never reissued on CD
by Sony:
Stravinsky: Firebird (NYP)
Stravinsky: Chant du Rossignol (NYP)
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra (NYP)
VI. Recording reissued on CD by Sony but not within Sony’s Boulez
Edition
Beethoven: Calm Sea & Prosperous Voyage (New Philharmonia)
VII. Recording included in the previous Sony Boulez edition but
apparently not in this one:
Roussel: Symphony no. 3 (NYP)
In any case, here’s what there is:
BOULEZ conducts BERLIOZ (3 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Berlioz
BOULEZ conducts WAGNER & MAHLER (3 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Wagner-Mahler
BOULEZ conducts DEBUSSY (4 CD’s)
Includes Pélléas et Mélisande
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Debussy
BOULEZ conducts SCHOENBERG, I (5 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Schoenberg-1
BOULEZ conducts SCHOENBERG, II (6 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Schoenberg-2
BOULEZ conducts RAVEL (4 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Ravel
BOULEZ conducts BARTÓK & SCRIABIN (4 CD’s)
Includes Scriabin’s Poem of Ecstasy (NYP)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Bartok
BOULEZ conducts STRAVINSKY, MESSIAEN, DE FALLA, & DUKAS (4 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Stravinsky-et-al
BOULEZ conducts WEBERN, VARÈSE, CARTER, & BERIO (6 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Webern-et-al
BOULEZ conducts BERG (5 CD’s)
Includes Wozzeck
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Berg
BOULEZ conducts BOULEZ (3 CD’s)
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Bz
I’m going to post the complete contents of this last set in a separate
post.
-david gable
Gerard
This Roussel is in the (new) Ravel set.
Thanks for your overview and other comments.
William Sommerwerck
but never reissued on CD by Sony:
Bart�k: Concerto for Orchestra (NYP)
But it _was_ reissued on [SA]CD by Sony.
JohnA
>
> V. Recordings issued or reissued on CD by CBS but never reissued on CD
> by Sony:
>
>
88697-56168-2) recently released. This set also contains the CBS Ravel
Songs disc (original LP M 39023) which begins with Sheherazade which,
I believe, was also omitted from the Boulez edition (it was removed to
make room for the Roussel Symphony 3).
david...@aol.com
the new Sony/BMG Boulez Edition, a recording of Le marteau sans maître
with Yvonne Minton and the Ensemble Musique Vivante recorded in 1972,
although a live 1985 recording of Marteau with the Ensemble
InterContemporain has been included. It’s a shame that space wasn't
found for Charles Rosen’s CBS recording of the first and third piano
sonatas, which Rosen recorded at the composer’s request and in his
presence: there was certainly room for them in the installment from
the edition featuring recordings of Boulez's own music. In any case,
here’s a complete listing of the recordings of Boulez’s music included
within the Boulez volume from the new Sony/BMG Boulez Edition:
BOULEZ conducts BOULEZ (3 CD’s)
Boulez: Notations for piano
Pi-Hsien Chen, piano
Recorded live, Baden-Baden, 30 March, 1985
Boulez: Le marteau sans maître
Elizabeth Laurence, mezzo-soprano
Members of the Ensemble InterContemporain:
Laurence Beauregard, flute
Jean Sulem, viola
Marie-Thérèse Ghirardi, guitar
Vincent Bauer, vibraphone
Michel Cerutti, percussion
Pierre Boulez, conductor
Recorded live, Baden-Baden, 31 March, 1985
Boulez: Structures pour deux pianos, livre II
Pi-Hsien Chen & Bernhard Wambach, pianos
Recorded live, Baden-Baden, 30 March, 1985
Boulez: Pli selon pli
Halina Lukomska, soprano
Maria Bergmann, piano
Paul Stingl, guitar
Hugo d'Alton, mandolin
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Pierre Boulez, conductor
Recorded London, 1969
Boulez: Livre pour cordes
Strings of the New Philharmonia Orchestra
Pierre Boulez, conductor
Recorded London, 1968
Boulez: Éclat/Multiples
Ensemble InterContemporain
Pierre Boulez, conductor
Recorded Paris, December 1981
Boulez: Rituel, in memoriam Bruno Maderna
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Pierre Boulez, conductor
Recorded London, November, 1976
http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Bz
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> > Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra (NYP)
>
> It is in the 5 disc "Original Album Classics" box set (catalog
> 88697-56168-2) recently released. This set also contains the CBS Ravel
> Songs disc (original LP M 39023) which begins with Sheherazade which,
> I believe, was also omitted from the Boulez edition (it was removed to
> make room for the Roussel Symphony 3).
I had forgotten about that brand new 5-disc set, which was released at
the same time, more or less, as the new Sony/BMG Boulez edition (even
though I own it!). Can somebody tell me if all of Boulez's recordings
of Ravel's vocal music have been included in the Ravel volume of the
new edition? Or is Scheherazade still missing?
-david gable
Gerard
What do you mean by 'still missing' in this case?
I have Sh�h�razade (Ouverture de f�erie) on Sony CD SMK 45961.
An overview of the content of the new Edition can be found at:
http://www.caminada.nl/webwinkel2.php?cat=97
The Ravel set contains:
Ravel: Menuet antique, la valse, Daphnis et Chlo�, Ouverture Sh�h�razade,
rapsodie espagnole, Valses nobles et sentimentales, Ma M�re l�Oye, Fanfare pour
L��ventail de jeanne, Alborada del gracioso, Le tombeau de couperin,
Pianoconcert voor de linkerhand, Pavane pour une infante d�funte, Une barque sur
l�oc�an, Bol�ro, Trois po�mes de St�phane Mallarm�, Chansons mad�casses, Don
Quichotte � Dulcin�e, Cinq m�lodies populaires grecques. Roussel: symfonie nr.
3.
david...@aol.com
> What do you mean by 'still missing' in this case?
> I have Shéhérazade (Ouverture de féerie) on Sony CD SMK 45961.
I wondered whether Boulez's recording of the song cycle, Shéhérazade,
was included: it was excluded from the previous Sony Boulez edition,
and, as I now learn from you, it's still missing from the new one.
The other song cycles from the compilation of Ravel song cycles that
originally included Shéhérazade were included in the older Sony Boulez
edition and are included in the new one. In both cases, Shéhérazade
has been omitted to make room for Roussel.
> An overview of the content of the new Edition can be found at:
>
> http://www.caminada.nl/webwinkel2.php?cat=97
Thank you for this: none of the Amazon's bothers to list the contents
of the various sets.
-david gable
td
>
> BOULEZ conducts WAGNER & MAHLER (3 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Wagner-Mahler
>
> BOULEZ conducts DEBUSSY (4 CD’s)
>
> BOULEZ conducts SCHOENBERG, I (5 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Schoenberg-1
>
> BOULEZ conducts SCHOENBERG, II (6 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Schoenberg-2
>
> BOULEZ conducts RAVEL (4 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Ravel
>
> BOULEZ conducts BARTÓK & SCRIABIN (4 CD’s)
>
> BOULEZ conducts STRAVINSKY, MESSIAEN, DE FALLA, & DUKAS (4 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Stravinsky-et-al
>
> BOULEZ conducts WEBERN, VARÈSE, CARTER, & BERIO (6 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Webern-et-al
>
> BOULEZ conducts BERG (5 CD’s)
>
> BOULEZ conducts BOULEZ (3 CD’s)http://tinyurl.com/Bz-edition-Bz
>
> I’m going to post the complete contents of this last set in a separate
> post.
It is clear from the above that we are dealing with a "fan" in the
final stages of "fan-ness". Not to speak of a died-in-the-wool
completist, of course.
Unfortunately there is no cure for this disease, as once all of
Boulez's recordings for Columbia aka Sony have been issued, we will
then face a plea for all of the "live" recordings made with the NYPhil
during his tenure there. Then all the pirate recordings made by other
"fans".
So, I don't see an end, frankly.
What is disturbing in all of this is the inevitable flattening of the
entire discography: the St. Sebastien pieces given the same prominence
as, say, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, both omitted from this new
set, for one reason or another.
Perhaps a better idea would be Boulez you REALLY need? Minus, say,
that toe-tapper by Dukas called La Peri?
Of course, I am definitely not a fan of Mr. Boulez, so perhaps I am
quite the wrong person to comment in this thread.
"For those that like that sort of thing that is the sort of thing they
like."
TD
david...@aol.com
> What is disturbing in all of this is the inevitable flattening of the
> entire discography: the St. Sebastien pieces given the same prominence
> as, say, Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, both omitted from this new
> set, for one reason or another.
>
> Perhaps a better idea would be Boulez you REALLY need? Minus, say,
> that toe-tapper by Dukas called La Peri?
Actually, I'm anything but a Boulez completist, and I can easily live
without some of the recordings Boulez made for CBS (and a large
majority of the recordings he's made for DG in the last two decades).
But as long as you're issuing 98% of the recordings he made for CBS,
it seems absurd not to release 100%.
-david gable
Randy Lane
Scheherazade vocal music is still missing
JohnA
> VI. Recording reissued on CD by Sony but not within Sony’s Boulez
> Edition
>
> Beethoven: Calm Sea & Prosperous Voyage (New Philharmonia)
>
There's also a disc of Handel's Water Music and Royal Fireworks Music
conducted by Boulez in the Masterworks Expanded Edition series (SK
93010; also on SACD, SS 89120), plus Handel's Berenice Overture and
the Concerto a due cori in F on Essential Classics (SB2K 63269)
Steve de Mena
> Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in "black" boxes with
> 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
> Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
>
> Because the Concerto for Orchestra of Bartok is not included, it's not "the
> complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
I don't think the Concerto for Orchestra was in the earlier Sony
Boulez Edition series.
Is it possible this "new" series mirrors contents of CDs from the old
Sony Boulez series exactly? (The Ravel box, for example, has the
Roussel Symphony as a filler to the Ravel songs CD, exactly like the
old edition)
Steve
Steve de Mena
The same contents as a few of the old Boulez Edition CDs:
http://bit.ly/8RnDKh
The Miraculous Mandarin, Op. 19 (Sz73) / Four Orchestral Pieces, Op.
12 (Sz51) / 3 Village Scenes, (Sz 79)
http://bit.ly/6dVeVC
Bluebeard's Castle
http://bit.ly/4FHjA7
Wooden Prince, Dance Suite, MSPC / Scriabin
Seems like they just used the old edition CDs, with no alterations or
shuffling around of contents at all. The Concerto for Orchestra
wasn't in the old edition either.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> While the new Sony/BMG Boulez Edition comes close to being a complete
> anthology of all the recordings Boulez ever made for CBS or Sony, it’s
> not quite complete, and the new compilation didn’t require the least
> imagination from its compilers. With exactly one exception, what the
> compilers have done is to take the recordings that were already issued
> in a previous Sony Boulez edition and group them within multiple-CD
> sets,
What is the one exception?
> VII. Recording included in the previous Sony Boulez edition but
> apparently not in this one:
>
> Roussel: Symphony no. 3 (NYP)
It is in this one, with the same Ravel vocal works that were on the
earlier Boulez Edition set.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> On Jan 25, 5:38 pm, "Gerard" wrote:
>
>> What do you mean by 'still missing' in this case?
>
> I wondered whether Boulez's recording of the song cycle, Sh�h�razade,
> was included: it was excluded from the previous Sony Boulez edition,
> and, as I now learn from you, it's still missing from the new one.
> The other song cycles from the compilation of Ravel song cycles that
> edition and are included in the new one. In both cases, Sh�h�razade
> has been omitted to make room for Roussel.
>
>> An overview of the content of the new Edition can be found at:
>>
>> http://www.caminada.nl/webwinkel2.php?cat=97
>
> Thank you for this: none of the Amazon's bothers to list the contents
> of the various sets.
There are pictures of the back covers - I could read the contents there.
Did it ever occur to you the contents were not available to Amazon to
list, that it wasn't a case of them not "bothering" to list it?
Steve
Gerard
> Gerard wrote:
> > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > > > > > What -- or which -- are the "Masterworks recordings"?
> > > > > Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
> > > > In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS = Columbia).
> > > > This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
> > > > But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
> > > It does. The CfO "ought" to be in that set.
> >
> > Agreed. But I cannot find information that it does contain the
> > Concerto for Orchestra.
> > The information I've found, does not go further than this:
> >
> > "Bartok: Four orchestral pieces, Three village scenes, The
> > Miraculous Mandarin, The Wooden Prince, Music for strings,
> > Scriabin: Le po�me de l�extase."
>
> The same contents as a few of the old Boulez Edition CDs:
>
> http://bit.ly/8RnDKh
> The Miraculous Mandarin, Op. 19 (Sz73) / Four Orchestral Pieces, Op.
> 12 (Sz51) / 3 Village Scenes, (Sz 79)
>
> http://bit.ly/6dVeVC
> Bluebeard's Castle
>
> http://bit.ly/4FHjA7
> Wooden Prince, Dance Suite, MSPC / Scriabin
>
> Seems like they just used the old edition CDs, with no alterations or
> shuffling around of contents at all. The Concerto for Orchestra
> wasn't in the old edition either.
>
> Steve
Weird.
If this (Concerto for Orchestra) recording was a recording to avoid at all costs
... OK, they'ld have a reason to leave it where it is.
But this is weird.
The same for the complete Firebird by Stravinsky.
td
wrote:
Or
Decide which recordings will sell and issue those.
Or
Decide which recordings are good and issue those.
Both require some analysis, of course. the complete route serves
nobody, in my opinion. There are too many for most people to buy, so
they don't buy any, even the ones which are good. Moreover, they cost
money to distribute and market all over the world. When they don't
sell, they further debase the Boulez currency.
TD
td
> david7ga...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Jan 25, 5:38 pm, "Gerard" wrote:
>
> >> What do you mean by 'still missing' in this case?
>
> > I wondered whether Boulez's recording of the song cycle, Shéhérazade,
> > was included: it was excluded from the previous Sony Boulez edition,
> > and, as I now learn from you, it's still missing from the new one.
> > The other song cycles from the compilation of Ravel song cycles that
> > edition and are included in the new one. In both cases, Shéhérazade
> > has been omitted to make room for Roussel.
>
> >> An overview of the content of the new Edition can be found at:
>
> >>http://www.caminada.nl/webwinkel2.php?cat=97
>
> > Thank you for this: none of the Amazon's bothers to list the contents
> > of the various sets.
>
> There are pictures of the back covers - I could read the contents there.
>
> Did it ever occur to you the contents were not available to Amazon to
> list, that it wasn't a case of them not "bothering" to list it?
No, because it is easier to impute laziness or carelessness than to
attempt to understand how a company like Amazon acquires information
and in what detail.
Childish attitude, actually.
TD
td
> Steve de Mena wrote:
> > Gerard wrote:
> > > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > > > > > > What -- or which -- are the "Masterworks recordings"?
> > > > > > Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
> > > > > In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS = Columbia).
> > > > > This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
> > > > > But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
> > > > It does. The CfO "ought" to be in that set.
>
> > > Agreed. But I cannot find information that it does contain the
> > > Concerto for Orchestra.
> > > The information I've found, does not go further than this:
>
> > > "Bartok: Four orchestral pieces, Three village scenes, The
> > > Miraculous Mandarin, The Wooden Prince, Music for strings,
> > > percussion and celesta, Dance suite, Duke Bluebeard’s Castle.
>
> > The same contents as a few of the old Boulez Edition CDs:
>
> >http://bit.ly/8RnDKh
> > The Miraculous Mandarin, Op. 19 (Sz73) / Four Orchestral Pieces, Op.
> > 12 (Sz51) / 3 Village Scenes, (Sz 79)
>
> >http://bit.ly/6dVeVC
> > Bluebeard's Castle
>
> >http://bit.ly/4FHjA7
> > Wooden Prince, Dance Suite, MSPC / Scriabin
>
> > Seems like they just used the old edition CDs, with no alterations or
> > shuffling around of contents at all. The Concerto for Orchestra
> > wasn't in the old edition either.
>
> > Steve
>
> Weird.
> If this (Concerto for Orchestra) recording was a recording to avoid at all costs
> ... OK, they'ld have a reason to leave it where it is.
> But this is weird.
> The same for the complete Firebird by Stravinsky.
Maybe these two recordings continue to make good money as stand-alone
items? So why give them away for less in an "edition"?
TD
david...@aol.com
> Is it possible this "new" series mirrors contents of CDs from the old
> Sony Boulez series exactly? (The Ravel box, for example, has the
> Roussel Symphony as a filler to the Ravel songs CD, exactly like the
> old edition)
The new edition exactly mirrors the contents of the previous Sony
Boulez edition with one exception: the 3-CD set including recordings
of Boulez's music includes the two CD's released in the previous
edition (Pli selon pli & Livre pour cordes; Éclat/Multiples & Rituel)
and a live 1985 CBS CD compilation including the 12 Notations for
piano, the second book of Structures for two pianos, and a live
recording of Le marteau sans maître.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
edition is Boulez's recording of Wozzeck, which was not reissued
within the previous Sony Boulez edition because it was still in print
on CD with a CBS imprint.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> Did it ever occur to you the contents were not available to Amazon to
> list, that it wasn't a case of them not "bothering" to list it?
It is a case of not bothering to list the contents. Sony/BMG didn't
bother to supply the contents, and Amazon didn't have the imagination
to come up with them on their own. In short, neither seller cares
about sales, because NONE of these boxes will come up if you do a
search for any of the pieces included in them.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> I can't think of any Boulez recordings that were originally issued by Sony. All
> of his great recordings with the NYP, for example, originally appeared as
> Columbia LPs. So a new Sony Boulez edition must consist entirely (unless there
> are some exceptions that I can't think of) of what Sommerwerck calls
> "Masterworks recordings."
Sony released exactly one recording with Boulez that had not been
released on CBS: a compilation of music by Luciano Berio with the
Ensemble InterContemporain. The recordings were made in April 1989.
(Sony SK 45 862)
-david gable
david...@aol.com
previous Boulez edition but included in the new one: the recording of
Berg songs with Jessye Norman. It includes the Seven Early Songs, the
Altenberglieder, and songs for voice and piano. The Norman/Boulez
recordings of the 7 Early and Altenberg's pale in interest before
Boulez’s earlier recordings of the 7 Early (with Harper/BBC SO) and
the Altenberglieder (with Lukomska/BBC SO), but the earlier recordings
have never made it to CD on any label.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> Question for the Boulez experts: Which of these sets are especially
> recommendable?
For my money, the best Boulez performances in these boxes are probably
these five:
Mahler: Das Klagende Lied
Various soloists, LSO
Recorded 1970
Debussy: La mer
New Philharmonia
Recorded 1966
Berg: Three Pieces, op. 6
BBC SO
Recorded 1967
Boulez: Pli selon pli
Lukomska, BBC SO
Recorded 1969
Elliott Carter: Symphony of Three Orchestras
NYP
Recorded 1976
The La mer is positively savage, the Berg white hot. The Klagende
Lied has more energy and backbone than all of Boulez’s DG Mahler
recordings combined, and, in Boulez’s hands, the still ending could
not be more haunting. Boulez’s first recording of Pli selon pli is
light years beyond his two later recordings in intensity. The
gleaming Carter performance is both exhilarating and unbelievably well
played. These five recordings would all be very near the top of the
list of the best Boulez performances I’ve ever heard: I don’t think
it’s a surprise that all but one of them date from 1970 or earlier.
(The Carter was recorded in the wake of the world première.)
The Debussy, Ravel, Bartók, and Boulez boxes are all very safe bets.
So, I suppose, is the Berg box, although the recording of Berg’s
Violin Concerto with Zukerman is a real dud, and Jessye Norman’s
prettily sung disc of Berg songs doesn’t quite do it for me.
The Mahler/Wagner box includes a very sensitively shaped Siegfried
Idyll and gleaming performances of some Wagner overtures: the wave
after wave of gleaming sound in the Tannhaueser Overture is not to be
believed. The Rückert Lieder and Wesendonck songs with Minton are
more of an acquired taste, and the Mahler/Wagner box unfortunately
includes a coarsely sung performance of Wagner’s ghastly Love Feast of
the Apostles.
The Schoenberg, Webern, and Varèse sets are all mixed bags, and for
the very same reason: because, in order to make this material
available in professional level performances, Boulez recorded a lot of
it in too short a time before his various performers had lived in it
long enough to really feel it. The all-star Pierrot lunaire with
Minton, Zukerman, and Barenboim is hopelessly dull for other reasons.
The Amériques and Arcana with the NYP are rip roaring.
The Berio performances are also extremely good.
-david gable
td
It sounds very much to me as though a better Boulez Edition could have
been made with about 8 or 10 CDs, leaving out all the hopelessly dull,
prettily sung, hastily recorded pieces, or the sheely "ghastly" bits
of Wagner!
Hey, maybe they should have done a Best of Boulez?
TD
JAC
missing from the previous CD edition (hence the throwing in of the
Roussel as makeweight). Does anyone know why? It's certainly far from
the greatest recording the work has received, but its absence does
mean that Boulez's complete survey of the Ravel orchestral songs has
been made incomplete. Did he turn against this performance? Did
Heather Harper? (Though I can't imagine her having the clout to do
anything about it.)
By contrast, her Berg Seven Early Songs does indeed merit retrieval; I
can't imagine that anybody at headquarters cares, or indeed, knows.
JAC
td
I cannot speak for Sony/BMG. Certainly the person responsible for the
reissue of the Domaine Musical materials had close and very pleasant
contact with PB on the subject. The composer was not shy about his
view of this or that recording. In the end some were omitted. This
could also be the case for the omitted songs with Heather Harper and
other alleged "oversights". Hard to tell without knowing the personnel
involved and now that Sony and BMG classical departments have been
gutted of their wisemen....well, we will probably never know.
TD
Gerard
> On Jan 26, 5:25 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Steve de Mena wrote:
> > > Gerard wrote:
> > > > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > > > > > > > What -- or which -- are the "Masterworks recordings"?
> > > > > > > Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
> > > > > > In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS =
> > > > > > Columbia). This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
> > > > > > But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
> > > > > It does. The CfO "ought" to be in that set.
> >
> > > > Agreed. But I cannot find information that it does contain the
> > > > Concerto for Orchestra.
> > > > The information I've found, does not go further than this:
> >
> > > > "Bartok: Four orchestral pieces, Three village scenes, The
> > > > Miraculous Mandarin, The Wooden Prince, Music for strings,
> > > > percussion and celesta, Dance suite, Duke Bluebeard�s Castle.
> >
> > > The same contents as a few of the old Boulez Edition CDs:
> >
> > > http://bit.ly/8RnDKh
> > > The Miraculous Mandarin, Op. 19 (Sz73) / Four Orchestral Pieces,
> > > Op. 12 (Sz51) / 3 Village Scenes, (Sz 79)
> >
> > > http://bit.ly/6dVeVC
> > > Bluebeard's Castle
> >
> > > http://bit.ly/4FHjA7
> > > Wooden Prince, Dance Suite, MSPC / Scriabin
> >
> > > Seems like they just used the old edition CDs, with no
> > > alterations or shuffling around of contents at all. The Concerto
> > > for Orchestra wasn't in the old edition either.
> >
> > > Steve
> >
> > Weird.
> > If this (Concerto for Orchestra) recording was a recording to avoid
> > at all costs ... OK, they'ld have a reason to leave it where it is.
> > But this is weird.
> > The same for the complete Firebird by Stravinsky.
>
> Maybe these two recordings continue to make good money as stand-alone
> items? So why give them away for less in an "edition"?
>
> TD
That could make some sense if they were available.
(I don't know it they are - maybe used copies only.)
But then: why put the other good money making items in boxes and not these ones?
graham
"td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:9993da9b-4e05-43b2...@b9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
TD
---------------------
But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
Graham
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4807 (20100126) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
td
wrote:
> td wrote:
> > On Jan 26, 5:25 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Steve de Mena wrote:
> > > > Gerard wrote:
> > > > > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > > > > > > > > What -- or which -- are the "Masterworks recordings"?
> > > > > > > > Those made before Sony acquired Columbia.
> > > > > > > In Europa the company was called CBS (I suppose CBS =
> > > > > > > Columbia). This Boulez Edition contains only CBS recordings.
> > > > > > > But I'm not sure if this answers your question.
> > > > > > It does. The CfO "ought" to be in that set.
>
> > > > > Agreed. But I cannot find information that it does contain the
> > > > > Concerto for Orchestra.
> > > > > The information I've found, does not go further than this:
>
> > > > > "Bartok: Four orchestral pieces, Three village scenes, The
> > > > > Miraculous Mandarin, The Wooden Prince, Music for strings,
> > > > > percussion and celesta, Dance suite, Duke Bluebeard’s Castle.
>
> > > > The same contents as a few of the old Boulez Edition CDs:
>
> > > >http://bit.ly/8RnDKh
> > > > The Miraculous Mandarin, Op. 19 (Sz73) / Four Orchestral Pieces,
> > > > Op. 12 (Sz51) / 3 Village Scenes, (Sz 79)
>
> > > >http://bit.ly/6dVeVC
> > > > Bluebeard's Castle
>
> > > >http://bit.ly/4FHjA7
> > > > Wooden Prince, Dance Suite, MSPC / Scriabin
>
> > > > Seems like they just used the old edition CDs, with no
> > > > alterations or shuffling around of contents at all. The Concerto
> > > > for Orchestra wasn't in the old edition either.
>
> > > > Steve
>
> > > Weird.
> > > If this (Concerto for Orchestra) recording was a recording to avoid
> > > at all costs ... OK, they'ld have a reason to leave it where it is.
> > > But this is weird.
> > > The same for the complete Firebird by Stravinsky.
>
> > Maybe these two recordings continue to make good money as stand-alone
> > items? So why give them away for less in an "edition"?
>
> > TD
>
> That could make some sense if they were available.
> (I don't know it they are - maybe used copies only.)
> But then: why put the other good money making items in boxes and not these ones?
Only to make nicey-nicey with PB, of course.
TD
td
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9993da9b-4e05-43b2...@b9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 26, 9:44 am, JAC <jonalancon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The absence of the Ravel "Sheherazade" has been mentioned. It was also
> > missing from the previous CD edition (hence the throwing in of the
> > Roussel as makeweight). Does anyone know why? It's certainly far from
> > the greatest recording the work has received, but its absence does
> > mean that Boulez's complete survey of the Ravel orchestral songs has
> > been made incomplete. Did he turn against this performance? Did
> > Heather Harper? (Though I can't imagine her having the clout to do
> > anything about it.)
>
> > By contrast, her Berg Seven Early Songs does indeed merit retrieval; I
> > can't imagine that anybody at headquarters cares, or indeed, knows.
>
> I cannot speak for Sony/BMG. Certainly the person responsible for the
> reissue of the Domaine Musical materials had close and very pleasant
> contact with PB on the subject. The composer was not shy about his
> view of this or that recording. In the end some were omitted. This
> could also be the case for the omitted songs with Heather Harper and
> other alleged "oversights". Hard to tell without knowing the personnel
> involved and now that Sony and BMG classical departments have been
> gutted of their wisemen....well, we will probably never know.
>
> TD
> ---------------------
>
> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
No, but then neither is Boulez, of course, which requires that we ask
the big question.
TD
david...@aol.com
> missing from the previous CD edition (hence the throwing in of the
> Roussel as makeweight). Does anyone know why?
There is no rhyme or reason. The Dukas and Roussel were coupled on
LP, and the compilers of the first Boulez edition couldn’t figure out
where to stick them. When the nutty idea of folding Roussel in with
Ravel occurred to somebody, the Schéhérazade was dumped to make room
for it, perhaps because the Roussel filled up more of the disc.
> It's certainly far from
> the greatest recording the work has received, but its absence does
> mean that Boulez's complete survey of the Ravel orchestral songs has
> been made incomplete. Did he turn against this performance? Did
> Heather Harper?
Neither Boulez nor Harper will have been consulted, and neither will
have had the least input as to the inclusions and exclusions. That
being said, I think it’s a far better performance than you do.
> By contrast, her Berg Seven Early Songs does indeed merit retrieval; I
> can't imagine that anybody at headquarters cares, or indeed, knows.
Of course they don’t. Boulez’s first recordings of the Seven Early
Songs with Heather Harper and the Altenberglieder with Halina Lukomska
are by far two of the finest recordings Boulez ever made, in no small
part due to his sopranos, of course, but neither has made it to CD.
In his liner note for the Berg record that included the
Altenberglieder, Boulez notes “the unique blend of sentiment and
irony” so characteristic of the Altenberglieder, and no singer has
ever come close to the sultry and ironical eroticism of Lukomska’s
magnificently subtle performance. (Bour and Maderna were two other
fantastic Bergians who found Lukomska a beguiling performer of these
unique and extraordinary songs.) Those were the days when Boulez felt
some urgency and could project such things with a sustained intensity.
Unfortunately, the Altenberglieder suffered the same fate as the
Schéhérazade: they were bumped from a disc including the
Kammerkonzert and Three Orchestral Pieces, op. 6, to make room for a
deadly dull recording of the Violin Concerto.
-david gable
Steve de Mena
Amazon deals with hundreds of thousands of CD SKUs. Their process I
am sure is NOT to individually check each listing, and if the details
are not there manually research the title and fill in the blanks.
They could do that, but would their customers pay the higher prices
required to support that process? No, they'd jump ship and buy them
from someone else if they were cheaper.
Steve
david...@aol.com
> I cannot speak for Sony/BMG. Certainly the person responsible for the
> reissue of the Domaine Musical materials had close and very pleasant
> contact with PB on the subject. The composer was not shy about his
> view of this or that recording. In the end some were omitted. This
> could also be the case for the omitted songs with Heather Harper and
> other alleged "oversights". Hard to tell without knowing the personnel
> involved and now that Sony and BMG classical departments have been
> gutted of their wisemen....well, we will probably never know.
Yes, we will. When the first Boulez edition was issued, the edition
the present edition was clearly based on, the plan was quite simply to
reissue all of Boulez's CBS recordings along with a new recording of
Berio’s music that had never been issued before. Boulez was consulted
by somebody at Sony, but, as a matter of principle, he specifically
declined to be a revisionist historian of his own recorded output: he
asked only that two recordings be suppressed, his LSO recording of the
Fantastique and his New Philharmonic recording of Beethoven's 5th.
Sony reissued the Fantastique anyway, and could hardly have done
otherwise if they intended to reissue his other Berlioz recordings.
(Can you imagine a Berlioz compilation that included Lélio but
excluded the Fantastique?)
Reissue of the Domaine musical sets was a very different affair. The
sets were explicitly conceived as presenting a slice of history; the
recordings are souvenirs of the young Boulez’s friendships with any
number of friends including composers, musicians, painters, patrons,
record producers, and founders of record labels from the early days at
the Petit Marigny with Jean-Louis Barrault; they were issued to mark
Boulez’s 80th birthday; Boulez was looking back at his own origins
from the vantage of somebody approaching 80; and his active
involvement was sincerely solicited by the very well informed
compilers. (The sets include a recording of an interview with Boulez
about the days of the Domaine musical specifically intended for
inclusion in the Domaine musical sets.) At the same time, Boulez, who
has never been much of a sentimentalist, was far less certain of the
level of professionalism he had managed to attain as a young man than
he was with his CBS recordings. Even so, he authorized the release of
his very first recording of Marteau with full cognizance of its
inadequacy.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
recorded, and it’s made DG a small fortune.
But that's not the point: it would have been easy enough to include
the Harper/BBC SO recording of the Seven Early Songs in the two Boulez
editions. One solution would have been to include Boulez’s first
recordings of the Seven Early Songs and Altenberglieder (with
Lukomska) on the same disc with Boulez’s recordings of Wagner’s
Wesendonck Lieder and Mahler’s Rückert Lieder instead of a coarsely
sung performance of Wagner’s ghastly Liebesmahl der Apostel, which
can’t possibly be a draw for very many people.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> Amazon deals with hundreds of thousands of CD SKUs. Their process I
> am sure is NOT to individually check each listing,
Of course it isn't. But everybody wants to be listed at Amazon, and
Amazon could easily insist on adequate listings. (In the digital age,
adequate listings for the Boulez sets would have been trivially easy
to supply. An absence of intelligence is just as likely to be found
in marketing as in any other human activity.)
> and if the details
> are not there manually research the title and fill in the blanks.
> They could do that, but would their customers pay the higher prices
> required to support that process? No, they'd jump ship and buy them
> from someone else if they were cheaper.
This doesn't explain Sony/BMG's self-defeating stupidity. Any way you
slice it, the failure to include the titles of ANY of the pieces in a
classical set, a failure that means the set will not pop up when you
do a search for, say, La mer, is criminal stupidity.
-david gable
td
> Neither Boulez nor Harper will have been consulted, and neither will
> have had the least input as to the inclusions and exclusions.
This kind of unsupported statement is irresponsible and does not
credit to a supposed musicologist. It only serves to cloud the subject
completely in supposition, innuendo and calumny.
Please note the use of "will".
Translation: "I think", "I guess" or "I wager".
TD
td
Correct. Garbage in. Garbage out. Don't expect Amazon to wade through
the garbage to figure out what was in it.
TD
td
> Thus spake Mr. Deacon:
>
> > I cannot speak for Sony/BMG. Certainly the person responsible for the
> > reissue of the Domaine Musical materials had close and very pleasant
> > contact with PB on the subject. The composer was not shy about his
> > view of this or that recording. In the end some were omitted. This
> > could also be the case for the omitted songs with Heather Harper and
> > other alleged "oversights". Hard to tell without knowing the personnel
> > involved and now that Sony and BMG classical departments have been
> > gutted of their wisemen....well, we will probably never know.
>
> Yes, we will.
Whatever.
But you don't now know and all your comments are simply guesswork.
"May", would be more advisable than "will".
(aggreement snipped)
A lot of words. But in the end you agree with my original statement.
Thus did indeed spake Mr. Deacon.
tD
td
> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
> > But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>
> The question is, compared to what?
How about "anything"?
TD
td
Mr. Gable has lost perspective.
Just not that important in the scheme of things.
Remember Haiti.
TD
graham
How about "anything"?
---------------------------------------
I'm reminded of a cartoon in some record or hi-fi mag more than 30 years
ago. The substance was that the contemporary music dept in a record company
was having a party to celebrate selling the 10th LP of some recording or
other.
Graham
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4808 (20100126) __________
Bob Lombard
> "td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:fd138487-b554-4c23...@l11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 26, 3:41 pm, "david7ga...@aol.com" <david7ga...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>>
>>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>> The question is, compared to what?
>
> How about "anything"?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> I'm reminded of a cartoon in some record or hi-fi mag more than 30 years
> ago. The substance was that the contemporary music dept in a record company
> was having a party to celebrate selling the 10th LP of some recording or
> other.
> Graham
>
You are talking about Alban Berg, and not the Berg who once worked as
an engineer for the company I used to work for. Alban's violin
concerto is better known, I'm guessing, than any composition by
Boulez, Honneger or Scnabel.
bl
--
Music, a few books, a few movies
LombardMusic
http://www.amazon.com/shops/A3NRY9P3TNNXNA
td
> graham wrote:
> > "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >news:fd138487-b554-4c23...@l11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 26, 3:41 pm, "david7ga...@aol.com" <david7ga...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
> >>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
> >> The question is, compared to what?
>
> > How about "anything"?
>
> > ---------------------------------------
> > I'm reminded of a cartoon in some record or hi-fi mag more than 30 years
> > ago. The substance was that the contemporary music dept in a record company
> > was having a party to celebrate selling the 10th LP of some recording or
> > other.
> > Graham
>
> You are talking about Alban Berg, and not the Berg who once worked as
> an engineer for the company I used to work for. Alban's violin
> concerto is better known, I'm guessing, than any composition by
> Boulez, Honneger or Scnabel.
Thanks a lot for clearing up any confusion, Bob.
What did Berg the engineer write, by the way?
TD
Bob Lombard
Fred was a competent engineer, produced some good useful stuff. I'm
not supposed to compare his output with yours, am I?
Steve de Mena
> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>
> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
Steve
Bob Lombard
Do you have any notion of what DG considers a 'small fortune"?
graham
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:ptGdnUiPkpB_OMLW...@giganews.com...
> david...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>>
>>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>>
>> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
>> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
>> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
>> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
>> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
>> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
>> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
>> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
>> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
>
> I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
>
place!
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4808 (20100126) __________
number_six
wrote:
> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
> > But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>
> The question is, compared to what?
A question propounded by Roberta Flack, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Al
Jarreau, and others.
number_six
Did you catch tinear's post last year of a very nice LP transfer
including the Berg Seven Early Songs, also music by Schoenberg and
Bloch? Very worthwhile!
Steve de Mena
It was David who posted, not DG. For all we know the Lulu recording
never even broke even.
Steve
david...@aol.com
> But you don't now know and all your comments are simply guesswork.
My comments on the degree of Boulez's involvement in the release of
the original Sony Boulez Edition and the Domaine musical boxes are
anything but guesswork.
> A lot of words. But in the end you agree with my original statement.
I agree with what you said about the Domaine musical boxes, not with
your inference that Boulez was comparably involved in a SECOND release
of the Sony Boulez edition.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> Mr. Gable has lost perspective.
>
> Just not that important in the scheme of things.
>
> Remember Haiti.
In that sense, nothing discussed on this newsgroup is "that important
in the scheme of things." But just what sorts of topics do you expect
to be discussed on a newsgroup dedicated to recordings of classical
music? THAT'S the operative perspective here.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> It was David who posted, not DG. For all we know the Lulu recording
> never even broke even.
Even the DG recordings of Henze and Stockhausen eventually broke even
and started making DG money: compared to Henze and Stockhausen, Lulu
is Puccini. Moreover, as is very often the case with opera
recordings, much of the expense of rehearsals was paid for by the
Paris Opera, given that the DG recording was recorded during a run of
performances.
-david gable
Taffy Brendel
And you expect Deacon the Doofus to understand that:-)/
Taffy
td
Well, more logically, perhaps with that of his namesake?
TD
td
> david7ga...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
> >> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>
> > The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
> > compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
> > recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
> > same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
> > continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
> > CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
> > again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
> > first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
> > Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
>
> I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
Correct.
Gable the "fan" speaking again.
TD
td
> "Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in messagenews:ptGdnUiPkpB_OMLW...@giganews.com...
>
> >> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>
> >>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>
> >> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
> >> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
> >> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
> >> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
> >> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
> >> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
> >> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
> >> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
> >> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
> >> recorded, and it’s made DG a small fortune.
>
> > I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
>
> but they probably used a large fortune to make the recordings in the first
> place!
Correct.
DG now occupies one floor of a buidling in Hamburg. They used to
occupy all 6 floors.
Figure it out.
TD
td
wrote:
> On Jan 26, 4:09 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > But you don't now know and all your comments are simply guesswork.
>
> My comments on the degree of Boulez's involvement in the release of
> the original Sony Boulez Edition and the Domaine musical boxes are
> anything but guesswork.
Doesn't appear to be anything else from this vantage point?
> > A lot of words. But in the end you agree with my original statement.
>
> I agree with what you said about the Domaine musical boxes, not with
> your inference that Boulez was comparably involved in a SECOND release
> of the Sony Boulez edition.
Why, then, did you feel obliged to add a lengthy paragraph if all you
were doing is to agree?
TD
td
wrote:
> On Jan 26, 4:11 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Gable has lost perspective.
>
> > Just not that important in the scheme of things.
>
> > Remember Haiti.
>
> In that sense, nothing discussed on this newsgroup is "that important
> in the scheme of things."
N O W the penny drops!
He GOT it!
Wow!
TD
td
Gosh, we pulled Taffy's toffee!
What a hoot!
TD
td
wrote:
> Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in "black" boxes with
> 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
> Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
> Varèse, Webern, Messiaen, Dukas, Roussel, Falla, Carter, Scriabin.
>
> Because the Concerto for Orchestra of Bartok is not included, it's not "the
> complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
>
> A listing can be found at:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_22?url=search-alias%3Dpopula...
>
> I've bought one of the box (Mahler/Wagner - because of Das Klagende Lied).
> No dates of remastering have been given in the booklet.
>
> I was wondering if the Debussy items have the same sound quality as the earlier
> Boulez Edition, or the (later) remasterings in the "Great recordings" series (Mr
> Gable complained about the far inferior remastering of these).
After endless disguisitions on the subject from David Gable, I went to
Sony Classical's website looking for Boulez items. They list 29. NONE
are from this new Boulez Edition.
Makes me wonder whether it is a local US release or an imported item.
Surely a product issued in October of 2009 would be featured by the
end of January, 2010, in Sony's website dedicated to classical music
releases. But no. Not a word. Not a single picture or detail about
this "new" edition.
http://www.sonymasterworks.com/artist/pierre-boulez/#discography
Moving over to the German site I find all of these issues. Not
featured, of course, but at least listed, with individual
tracklistings available for each volume.
http://www.sonymusicclassical.de/artists2.php?iA=7&artist=1174
So, I would imagine that www.amazon.de had all these details, right?
Yup. You can even listen to the tracks.
Interesting. I guess Boulez is "released" in the USA, but sort of
sotto voce, as it were. No marketing. No information to retailers. And
product availability? Well, time will tell.
TD
Gerard
> On Jan 25, 10:00 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in
> > "black" boxes with 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including
> > the Concerto for Orchestra!) Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler
No marketing here either (althought the stuff has been 'dumped' to the stores).
I think that that Sony corporation is a weird thing.
This new Boulez Edition - the actual boxes - I've found in 2 stores in the
Netherlands (I did not look further since), while I thought it would be much
more to be expected to find information about hat edition in this newsgroup
*first* .
td
> > wrote:
> > > Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in
> > > "black" boxes with 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including
> > > the Concerto for Orchestra!) Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler
>
> > Yup. You can even listen to the tracks.
>
> > Interesting. I guess Boulez is "released" in the USA, but sort of
> > sotto voce, as it were. No marketing. No information to retailers. And
> > product availability? Well, time will tell.
>
> > TD
>
> No marketing here either (althought the stuff has been 'dumped' to the stores).
> I think that that Sony corporation is a weird thing.
> This new Boulez Edition - the actual boxes - I've found in 2 stores in the
> Netherlands (I did not look further since), while I thought it would be much
> more to be expected to find information about hat edition in this newsgroup
> *first* .
Alas, no.
All you have is speculation, guesswork, gossip etc.
You could find out everything yourself just at your computer.
TD
Gerard
> > > wrote:
> > > > Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in
> > > > "black" boxes with 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not
> > > > including the Concerto for Orchestra!) Berg, Berlioz, Boulez,
> > > > Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
Not the answer to the question in the subject line.
BTW I've known some one who has been busy during a long time to make a database
with _all_ classical recordings that are owned by Sony. He did so because Sony
has asked him to do it. I'm talking about 3 or 4 years ago.
Sony did not have such a database - they did not know which recordings they own.
Probably they still don't know.
The database never has been filled with all those recordings during the lifetime
of that person (I don't know if something has happened later).
graham
Correct.
Figure it out.
TD
--------------------------------------
Since Chicago School economic policies have sent society hurtling back to
the Eighteenth Century, perhaps it's time to resurrect the then custom of
selling by subscription. Then we'd see how popular Berg, Stockhausen,
Boulez, Carter etc really are. There would then be no excuse for the
constant bleating from the "why doesn't Sony reissue........." crowd.
Graham
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4810 (20100127) __________
td
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
Good idea!
And they bleat soooooo noisily, don't they?
TD
Bob Lombard
> "td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:5a1955a4-bbbf-435c...@b9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 26, 9:47 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> "Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:ptGdnUiPkpB_OMLW...@giganews.com...
>>
>>> david7ga...@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>>>>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>>>> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
>>>> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
>>>> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
>>>> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
>>>> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
>>>> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
>>>> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
>>>> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
>>>> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
>>> I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
>> but they probably used a large fortune to make the recordings in the first
>> place!
>
> Correct.
>
> DG now occupies one floor of a buidling in Hamburg. They used to
> occupy all 6 floors.
>
> Figure it out.
>
> TD
> --------------------------------------
>
> Since Chicago School economic policies have sent society hurtling back to
> the Eighteenth Century, perhaps it's time to resurrect the then custom of
> selling by subscription. Then we'd see how popular Berg, Stockhausen,
> Boulez, Carter etc really are. There would then be no excuse for the
> constant bleating from the "why doesn't Sony reissue........." crowd.
> Graham
>
>
last sentence, but all nasty.
bl
td
wrote:
> graham wrote:
> > "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >news:5a1955a4-bbbf-435c...@b9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 26, 9:47 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >> "Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:ptGdnUiPkpB_OMLW...@giganews.com...
>
> >>> david7ga...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
> >>>>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
> >>>> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
> >>>> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
> >>>> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
> >>>> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
> >>>> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
> >>>> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
> >>>> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
> >>>> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
> >>>> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
> >>> I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
> >> but they probably used a large fortune to make the recordings in the first
> >> place!
>
> > Correct.
>
> > DG now occupies one floor of a buidling in Hamburg. They used to
> > occupy all 6 floors.
>
> > Figure it out.
>
> > TD
> > --------------------------------------
>
> > Since Chicago School economic policies have sent society hurtling back to
> > the Eighteenth Century, perhaps it's time to resurrect the then custom of
> > selling by subscription. Then we'd see how popular Berg, Stockhausen,
> > Boulez, Carter etc really are. There would then be no excuse for the
> > constant bleating from the "why doesn't Sony reissue........." crowd.
> > Graham
>
> Ooh. Now see, that qualifies as 'nasty'. Reasonably subtle until the
> last sentence, but all nasty.
Sometimes it is very unpleasant to look at the truth in the face, Bob.
TD
John Wiser
[among other things elided]
>
> Since Chicago School economic policies have sent society hurtling back to
> the Eighteenth Century, perhaps it's time to resurrect the then custom of
> selling by subscription. Then we'd see how popular Berg, Stockhausen,
> Boulez, Carter etc really are. There would then be no excuse for the
> constant bleating from the "why doesn't Sony reissue........." crowd.
Yes, Yes, YES!!!
Jicotea Used Books
Howells NY 10932 0136 USA
cee...@gmail.com
http://www.amazon.com/shops/ceeclef
graham
"Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:B_Y7n.4592$tq1....@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
> graham wrote:
>> "td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:5a1955a4-bbbf-435c...@b9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 26, 9:47 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> "Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in
>>> messagenews:ptGdnUiPkpB_OMLW...@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> david7ga...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 26, 12:13 pm, Graham wrote:
>>>>>> But then, Berg is hardly a "best seller".
>>>>> The question is, compared to what? A recording of Wozzeck may have to
>>>>> compete with half a dozen other recordings of the same opera, but a
>>>>> recording of Aida has to compete with sixty other recordings of the
>>>>> same opera. In any case, Boulez's recording of Wozzeck was
>>>>> continuously in print for roughly four decades until the full price
>>>>> CBS CD reissue was deleted a couple of years ago, and it was reissued
>>>>> again last year in the Sony Opera House series at midprice: it made,
>>>>> first, CBS and then Sony a small fortune. Boulez's DG recording of
>>>>> Lulu has never been out of print in the three decades since it was
>>>> I doubt either of those Berg recordings made "a small fortune".
>>> but they probably used a large fortune to make the recordings in the
>>> first
>>> place!
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>> DG now occupies one floor of a buidling in Hamburg. They used to
>> occupy all 6 floors.
>>
>> Figure it out.
>>
>> TD
>> --------------------------------------
>>
>> Since Chicago School economic policies have sent society hurtling back to
>> the Eighteenth Century, perhaps it's time to resurrect the then custom of
>> selling by subscription. Then we'd see how popular Berg, Stockhausen,
>> Boulez, Carter etc really are. There would then be no excuse for the
>> constant bleating from the "why doesn't Sony reissue........." crowd.
>> Graham
> Ooh. Now see, that qualifies as 'nasty'. Reasonably subtle until the last
> sentence, but all nasty.
>
Steve de Mena
> On Jan 25, 10:00 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in "black" boxes with
>> 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
>> Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
All the Amazon U.S. individual listings for the new Boulez Edition
list them as Imports.
Steve
Gerard
But yet it is a mess.
I have one of the boxes of the Boulez Edition, and on the backside 2 times the
website
www.sonymasterworks.com is mentioned.
On that site searching for Boulez (by clicking on 'Artists' at the bottom of the
page - the search function doesn't work) results in a lot of mostly single disk
items, but nothing about this Edition.
td
> > wrote:
> >> Recently I found a new (?) Pierre Boulez Edition on Sony, in "black" boxes with
> >> 3-6 CDs, with works by Bartok (but not including the Concerto for Orchestra!)
> >> Berg, Berlioz, Boulez, Debussy, Mahler + Wagner, Ravel, Schoenberg, Stravinsky,
>
> >> Because the Concerto for Orchestra of Bartok is not included, it's not "the
> >> complete Boulez Sony recordings" together.
>
> >> A listing can be found at:
>
> >>http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_22?url=search-alias%3Dpopula...
>
> >> I've bought one of the box (Mahler/Wagner - because of Das Klagende Lied).
> >> No dates of remastering have been given in the booklet.
>
> >> I was wondering if the Debussy items have the same sound quality as the earlier
> >> Boulez Edition, or the (later) remasterings in the "Great recordings" series (Mr
> >> Gable complained about the far inferior remastering of these).
>
> > After endless disguisitions on the subject from David Gable, I went to
> > Sony Classical's website looking for Boulez items. They list 29. NONE
> > are from this new Boulez Edition.
>
> > Makes me wonder whether it is a local US release or an imported item.
> > Surely a product issued in October of 2009 would be featured by the
> > end of January, 2010, in Sony's website dedicated to classical music
> > releases. But no. Not a word. Not a single picture or detail about
> > this "new" edition.
>
> >http://www.sonymasterworks.com/artist/pierre-boulez/#discography
>
> > Moving over to the German site I find all of these issues. Not
> > featured, of course, but at least listed, with individual
> > tracklistings available for each volume.
>
> >http://www.sonymusicclassical.de/artists2.php?iA=7&artist=1174
>
>
> > Yup. You can even listen to the tracks.
>
> > Interesting. I guess Boulez is "released" in the USA, but sort of
> > sotto voce, as it were. No marketing. No information to retailers. And
> > product availability? Well, time will tell.
>
> > TD
>
> All the Amazon U.S. individual listings for the new Boulez Edition
> list them as Imports.
As I suspected, Steve. The US arm of Sony has released it and nothing
more.
TD
david...@aol.com
But you haven't. Instead of standing on the street corner soliciting
aid for Haiti (a topic that is otherwise only a red herring, fodder
for your pleasure in destruction), you're here reducing every
discussion to acrimonious triviality, as usual. YOUR priorities
include starting threads attacking other posters. Your personality
has many points in common with Tony Soprano's mother (in THE SOPRANOS,
and don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about). And, of
course, you delete the remaining and most relevant part of my post.
When you're reduced to having such arguments as this one with bored
and lonely retired people, it's time to make a permanent exit from the
thread. I bid you adieu.
-david gable
td
When you have nothing else to do but attack the messenger, you're in a
very bad way, Gable.
Flouncing out is much less gracious than flouncing in. And you're no
Loretta Young!
TD
O
<0fbadd25-cb22-4ca1...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > But you haven't. �Instead of standing on the street corner soliciting
> > aid for Haiti (a topic that is otherwise only a red herring, fodder
> > for your pleasure in destruction), you're here reducing every
> > discussion to acrimonious triviality, as usual. �YOUR priorities
> > include starting threads attacking other posters. �Your personality
> > has many points in common with Tony Soprano's mother (in THE SOPRANOS,
> > and don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about). �And, of
> > course, you delete the remaining and most relevant part of my post.
> >
> > When you're reduced to having such arguments as this one with bored
> > and lonely retired people, it's time to make a permanent exit from the
> > thread. �I bid you adieu.
>
> When you have nothing else to do but attack the messenger, you're in a
> very bad way, Gable.
>
> Flouncing out is much less gracious than flouncing in. And you're no
> Loretta Young!
I kind of like the idea of casting the Sopranos with RMCR denizens.
Yes, I think Livia works for TD.
-Owen
td
> In article
> <0fbadd25-cb22-4ca1-bdb9-86b37503c...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, td
Do you fancy yourself as Tony?
TD
O
<b67beddb-cd21-44c2...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
Hmmm....that would make you my Mother. Scary thought.
-Owen
td
We can start over, if you prefer. Maybe you can play the Mother?
TD
O
<b88b5c40-ecc7-48aa...@n4g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Hmmm....that would make you my Mother. Scary thought.
>
> We can start over, if you prefer. Maybe you can play the Mother?
>
I've been called that many times, and always considered it a term of
endearment.
-Owen
graham
"O" <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote in message
news:280120101746585704%ow...@denofinequityx.com...
Graham
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4815 (20100128) __________
td
> "O" <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote in message
>
> news:280120101746585704%ow...@denofinequityx.com...> In article
> > <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Hmmm....that would make you my Mother. Scary thought.
>
> >> We can start over, if you prefer. Maybe you can play the Mother?
>
> > I've been called that many times, and always considered it a term of
> > endearment.
>
> Even when it was hyphenated to another less polite term?
Well, I seem to recall he has children. So.....
TD
John Wiser
> >> > Hmmm....that would make you my Mother. Scary thought.
>
>> >> We can start over, if you prefer. Maybe you can play the Mother?
> >> I've been called that many times, and always considered it a term of
> >> endearment.
>
>> Even when it was hyphenated to another less polite term?
> Well, I seem to recall he has children. So.....
Parthenogenesis.
--
John Wiser