Which Don Giovanni: Mitropoulos or Bruno Walter?
lastvisibledog
Mitropoulos (Salzburg; with Siepi) on Sony, and the Bruno Walter (Met;
with Pinza!) on Naxos Historical. - Does anyone have them? Which is
better? And who did the Naxos transfer?
David7Gable
I have both and prefer the Mitropoulos in every way. The Walter is very
interesting, though. It smashes to smithereens any notion that the earlier
20th century was dominated by self-indulgent overly Romantic un-strict
interpretations. Walter is as fast and fleet and lean as they come. (I've
been told about an even faster Don Giovanni from the period, but I can't
remember who the conductor is.) The sound on Naxos is also rather good for the
period.
The Mitropoulos has less good sound than I would have expected for the
mid-50's, given that Salzburg must have lent them access to the original tape.
But you can hear what's going on, and Mitropoulos gives a more nuanced and less
generic--in short, a more distinctively phrased--performance of the opera. I
would also say Mitro's cast is better. I even happen to prefer Siepi to Pinza,
as much as I admire Pinza.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
I don't have the Naxos transfer, so I can't comment on that aspect, but
otherwise it would be my pick between the two - I find his fast
(astonishingly so by most standards, and surprising to anyone who knows
only his late Mozart) tempi and incisive rhythms create a uniquely
compelling sense of irresistible momentum and drama; generally wonderful
cast, too (in fact, if I could keep one recording of Don Giovanni only,
this might be it). After this, Mitropoulos sounds rather tame (most do),
but even heard in isolation I'm not sure why so much fuss gets made about this
performance, all too much of which sounds to me like generalized trundling
along (the moments which don't merely serve to highlight the extent to
which it does). I like most of the cast, but many of them appear in the
Boehm-conducted performance from a few years earlier, which I find more
compellingly conducted and better sung (even though it's sung in German).
Provided reports on the Naxos transfer are favorable, at their prices you
don't have much to lose if you disagree.... (If you don't disagree, don't
miss his Fidelio from around the same time on the same label.)
Simon
Bob Lombard
wrote:
[...] Well it isn't so much what you wrote as what you and David
wrote. Are you guys actually referring to the same stuff? Given such
difference of opinion, the only solution would seem to be a dawn
meeting somewhere in the Mississippi Delta.
bl
Ray Hall
news:ag5ltusdfav49no3h...@4ax.com...
I believe they are definitely referring to, and preferring the Walter. Simon
tends to be a bit abstruse at times. Maybe because he is lawyer. One finds
the message in the small print <g>
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< NEW Doris Day TV series news >
VIVE LA KAREN, as endorsed by El Toro de Taree
Ray, Taree, NSW
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/02
allankohrman
greatest opera performance of any opera. Pinza is overpowering; no
subsequent Don Giovanni can touch him. Kipnis is not at his absolute
best--he had the flu--but his performance is still better sung than any
subsequent Leporello. Sayao is unbeatable--listen to second "Andiam" in "La
Chi Darem la Mano" and you can tell that she was no poor, seduced peasant
girl. Bampton and Novotna were very good, even though "Mi Tradi" was
omitted from the performance. Walter's conducting is ezciting and dramatic.
The only other recording that is worthy of the opera is Gardiner's.
Mitropoulous is dull near the beginning but eventually his conducting is
taut enough. Siepi is better than on his Krips and Leinsdorf recordings
and does more with the words than Pinza, but otherwise can't compare.
Grummer is a fine Anna. Altogether I would rank this performance as my
third or fourth favorite. The Opera D'Oro Giulini performance from the late
60's is also worth considering.
Allan Kohrman
Newton, MA
Simon Roberts
"Ray Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:BDAC9.80110$g9.2...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> "Bob Lombard" <hill...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
> news:ag5ltusdfav49no3h...@4ax.com...
> | On 19 Nov 2002 18:29:54 GMT, sd...@pobox.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts)
> | wrote:
> |
> | [...] Well it isn't so much what you wrote as what you and David
> | wrote. Are you guys actually referring to the same stuff? Given such
> | difference of opinion, the only solution would seem to be a dawn
> | meeting somewhere in the Mississippi Delta.
>
> I believe they are definitely referring to, and preferring the Walter.
You may want to reread our respective opening sentences....
Simon
Ramon Khalona
I have both issues and, for me, the choice is very simple:
The Walter set (Naxos 8.110013-4, 2-CDs, 75:10 and 79:36, rec. March
1942) is a performance for those interested in historical issues and
for fans of this conductor's work. It is very fast and reasonably well
sung. The sound has very limited dynamic range, but is well within
the scope of acetate-derived live performances from this period.
Pinza is unquestionably the star of the performance, but the other
singers hold their own well. Walter's conducting is fiery, incisive,
and it certainly belies the lyrical/romantic label that characterizes
his late work. The transfer engineer(s) are not mentioned by name;
only a team from Cambridge University is credited. They claim to have
made extensive restoration work and to have filled some small gaps
present in the source. The result is very listenable and the ear
adjusts quickly, but the sound is no match for that of the Mitropoulos
set, which is derived from the original tapes of the Salzburg
performance.
The Mitropoulos set (Sony SM3K 64 263, 3-CDs, 64:56, 64:22, 45:33,
rec. July 1956) is, except for mono sound, competitive with the best
recordings out there. For my taste, it offers much more drama and
changes in nuance that are lacking in Walter's more uniformly fast
approach. The singing of Siepi as the Don will probably win everyone
over (except his detractors). The sound is still boxy mono, but the
dynamic range is much wider than in the Walter recording. Seldom have
I heard such a dramatic descent to hell of the infamous Don as in this
recording. Mitropoulos creates a white hot atmosphere that, in the
words of a good friend, is a life altering experience.
Fortunately the Naxos set is inexpensive enough that you can probably
get both to satisfy your curiosity for the Walter. In summary, I am
happy to have the Walter but could well be without it. I could not be
without the Mitropoulos.
Ramon Khalona
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:fsBC9.86145$nB.6554@sccrnsc03:
> In my judgment the March 8, 1942 Met Don Giovanni conducted by Walter
> is the greatest opera performance of any opera. Pinza is overpowering;
> no subsequent Don Giovanni can touch him. Kipnis is not at his
> absolute best--he had the flu--but his performance is still better sung
> than any subsequent Leporello. Sayao is unbeatable--listen to second
> "Andiam" in "La Chi Darem la Mano" and you can tell that she was no
> poor, seduced peasant girl. Bampton and Novotna were very good, even
> though "Mi Tradi" was omitted from the performance. Walter's
> conducting is ezciting and dramatic. The only other recording that is
> worthy of the opera is Gardiner's.
I like the Walter/Met very much too; Kipnis' interpolated exclamation of
"Olé Toledo!" is particularly amusing. I also enjoy what can be heard of
Walter's Salzburg performance with Pinza; I do hope that someday Andante
will coalesce their fecal matter and be able to present it to us in Seth
Winner's reportedly far superior transfer.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
ulvi
news:Xns92CBDDDB6CD...@216.148.53.81:
> I do hope that
> someday Andante will coalesce their fecal matter and be able to
> present it to us in Seth Winner's reportedly far superior transfer.
____________ (substitute smart-ass remark of your own) ....
Ulvi
Ray Hall
news:areonn$ien$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Yeah. I just did. You both think the Walter is excellent - and fast <g>
Pistols at dawn over the Mitropoulos though. Bob threw the glove down, so I
reckon he should organise it.
David7Gable
>compellingly conducted and better sung (even though it's sung in German).
But no Siepi! Do like Boehm, though.
-david gable
Richard Bernas
The Naxos transfer is by Richard Caniell and it's less distorted and
marginally cleaner than an older, Italian (Cetra?) edition I've heard.
Ideally, you'd want to hear sharper consonants from the voices and a
better sense of space overall, but the this "production" doesn't get
in the way of the performance. Which is magnificent. Probably the
closest we will ever get to hearing how Mahler might have conducted
this work. I say this because some of it is virtually the sonic
demonstration of Walter's description of his mentor's opera conducting
in that short book about Mahler. Obviously, Mahler taught him a lot.
Mitropoulos is one of my favourite conductors and I want to admire his
Don Giovanni, but it is worth hearing mainly for the individual
performances. Grummer and Simoneau are excellent, Streich charming
and I enjoy hearing the Siepi/Corena double act live. But that's
about it.
Have you heard the Fritz Busch recording? It is not an overwhelming
dramatic statement but it has other virtues. If you want to hear the
whole of Don Giovanni treated as big String Quartet, with the utmost
integration and integrety between all its elements, it is definitely
worth considering. Nobody has realised this point of view as well as
Busch did.
Johannes Roehl
> Have you heard the Fritz Busch recording? It is not an overwhelming
> dramatic statement but it has other virtues. If you want to hear the
> whole of Don Giovanni treated as big String Quartet, with the utmost
> integration and integrety between all its elements, it is definitely
> worth considering. Nobody has realised this point of view as well as
> Busch did.
Are all of Busch's Glyndebourne operas going to appear on
Naxos historical (I've ssen at least one, but forgot which
one)? Or what are the best transfers of these? I am slowly
getting used to the shellac sound, but find for example the
distortion on the Met Walter Fidelio broadcast (I know these
were not shellacs) quite offputting...
Anyway, I'd love to hear the Busch (it is such a pity that
he died just before the age of LP records...)
Johannes
Bob Lombard
<hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
|
>| You may want to reread our respective opening sentences....
>
>Yeah. I just did. You both think the Walter is excellent - and fast <g>
>Pistols at dawn over the Mitropoulos though. Bob threw the glove down, so I
>reckon he should organise it.
>
No, no, Ray - what you suggest is unlawful in the 50 states. I
envision a casual discussion with accouterments (a bandanna and Green
River skinning knives).
bl
Edward A. Cowan
> Are all of Busch's Glyndebourne operas going to appear on
> Naxos historical (I've ssen at least one, but forgot which
> one)? Or what are the best transfers of these? I am slowly
> getting used to the shellac sound, but find for example the
> distortion on the Met Walter Fidelio broadcast (I know these
> were not shellacs) quite offputting...
Two of the Busch Mozart opera sets have been reissued on CD from Naxos:
_Le nozze di Figaro_ (Naxos 8.110186-87, two CDs) (no recitatives)
_Don Giovanni_ (Naxos 8.110135-37, three CDs)
I have both Naxos sets, but I have heard only the _Don Giovanni_, which
is the best-sounding CD transfer I've heard. I do hope the Busch
recording of _Così fan tutte_ will be along from Naxos before too long.
I have it on EMI CHS 7 63864 2, two CDs.
It is worth noting in this context that the Beecham recording of _Die
Zauberflöte_ is also on Naxos (Naxos 8.110127-28, two CDs).
I seem to recall that some label has come up with a complete recording
of Busch's 1950 (or 1951?) performance of _Idomeneo_ at Glyndebourne.
Perhaps someone will fill in the necessary details?... (Busch recorded
highlights from _Idomeneo_ and _Così fan tutte_ at Glyndebourne around
this time.)
Two Busch performances of _Figaro_ from the Met seem to have been
preserved as recordings, and they are discussed by Paul Jackson in
_Saturday Afternoons at the Old Met_, pp.311-313.
Other Busch Met broadcasts include _Tristan und Isolde_ (issued on Myto
951.121) (Jackson, pp.407-409), _Lohengrin_ (Jackson, pp.409-411),
_Otello_ (Jackson, pp.436-438), and _Don Pasquale_ (Jackson,
pp.377-378).
> Anyway, I'd love to hear the Busch (it is such a pity that
> he died just before the age of LP records...)
Both Fritz Busch and Serge Koussevitzky died just at the time when LP
was emerging as the recorded musical medium for the next thirty-five
years (1948-1983). Both conductors did make a tiny handful of LP
recordings, or at least recordings not issued as 78s. Some Busch items
did appear on the early pioneering cheap LP label Remington, including a
Busch "Eroica" (Remington R-199-21) and a pairing of Beethoven's 8th
symphony and Haydn's no.101 (Remington R-199-149). The "Eroica" was
stated to be performed by the "Austrian Symphony Orchestra" and the
other disc says the performers are the "Austrian State Symphony". I have
both of these. The "Eroica" is difficult to play because the surfaces
have a texture resembling that of linoleum. The other disc, a later
issue from Remington, is made of vinyl and is more or less passable.
There was an LP on the Concert Hall label (E-13, red vinyl LP in a
special burgandy-colored jacket with a gold label) that had a Busch
performance of Mendelssohn's Overture "Die schöne Melusine," Op.32. The
remainder of the disc has Mendelssohn's Quartet for Pf. and strings,
Op.1, no.1, performed by Arthur Balsam, pf., Daniel Guilet, violin,
William Schoen, viola, and David Soyer, cello. And the Musical
Masterpiece Society issued a ten-inch LP with Busch conducting
Schubert's Symphony no.5 in B-flat major, D.485. The Mendelssohn and the
Schubert are performed by the Winterthur SO.
And the label Heliodor Historisch issued a pair of LPs with Busch
conducting the Danish Radio Orch. in Beethoven's 9th (Heliodor 2548 734)
and a disc with Mendelssohn's Sym. no.4, "Italian", Beethoven's Leonore
Ov. no.2, and Brahms's "Tragic" overture (Heliodor 2548 737). These seem
to have been taken from radio broadcasts.
--E.A.C.
Johannes Roehl
>
> Johannes Roehl <johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
>
> > Are all of Busch's Glyndebourne operas going to appear on
> > Naxos historical (I've ssen at least one, but forgot which
> > one)? Or what are the best transfers of these? I am slowly
> > getting used to the shellac sound, but find for example the
> > distortion on the Met Walter Fidelio broadcast (I know these
> > were not shellacs) quite offputting...
>
> Two of the Busch Mozart opera sets have been reissued on CD from Naxos:
>
> _Le nozze di Figaro_ (Naxos 8.110186-87, two CDs) (no recitatives)
> _Don Giovanni_ (Naxos 8.110135-37, three CDs)
>
> I have both Naxos sets, but I have heard only the _Don Giovanni_, which
> is the best-sounding CD transfer I've heard. I do hope the Busch
> recording of _Così fan tutte_ will be along from Naxos before too long.
> I have it on EMI CHS 7 63864 2, two CDs.
Do you mean 'best sounding' CD transfer of the Glyndebourne
Don' or 'best CD transfer of any historical recording'? But
it is certainly better than older EMI issues?
Was the Figaro recorded without recitatives or were they
omitted later?
Anyway, the Don is on my to-buy-list already ;-)
> I seem to recall that some label has come up with a complete recording
> of Busch's 1950 (or 1951?) performance of _Idomeneo_ at Glyndebourne.
> Perhaps someone will fill in the necessary details?... (Busch recorded
I think I have seen the Idomenao somewher, but on a pretty
obscure label
> > Anyway, I'd love to hear the Busch (it is such a pity that
> > he died just before the age of LP records...)
>
> Both Fritz Busch and Serge Koussevitzky died just at the time when LP
I think I have not heard anything by Koussevitzky yet (there
seems to be aa problem with my preferences and his favored
repertoire ;-))
From what I have read Busch's reputation in the 20ties and
30ties was second only to Furtwängler in the Austro-German
repertoire and probably to none in Mozart and Verdi; had he
lived to make more recordings after the war, he would
certainly still be as famous as Walter, E. Kleiber and
Furtwängler: He was only 60 or 61 when he died, so with a
conductor's average of around 80, there would be even stereo
recordings of him.
--extensive information deleted, thanks a lot---
> And the label Heliodor Historisch issued a pair of LPs with Busch
> conducting the Danish Radio Orch. in Beethoven's 9th (Heliodor 2548 734)
> and a disc with Mendelssohn's Sym. no.4, "Italian", Beethoven's Leonore
> Ov. no.2, and Brahms's "Tragic" overture (Heliodor 2548 737). These seem
> to have been taken from radio broadcasts.
Performances of the last three pieces are included in the
(recommendable) Busch-Volume of the EMI great conductors
series (+ Mozart's KV 425, Haydn's Sinfonia concertante,
Brahms 2nd and the Freischütz Ouverture)
Johannes
lastvisibledog
ignore a recommendation like "greatest live recording of any opera").
I'd certainly like to hear them both, and will in due course.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:1flxsch.1f8fg1fv1kbtiN%
eac...@anet-dfw.com:
> And the label Heliodor Historisch issued a pair of LPs with Busch
> conducting the Danish Radio Orch. in Beethoven's 9th (Heliodor 2548
> 734) and a disc with Mendelssohn's Sym. no.4, "Italian", Beethoven's
> Leonore Ov. no.2, and Brahms's "Tragic" overture (Heliodor 2548 737).
> These seem to have been taken from radio broadcasts.
I remember some "collectors" LP edition in the 1970s which included that
9th, and I liked it very much (not withstanding some odd pronunciations,
possibly just a Danish accent, from the bass).
Paul Goldstein
>
>eac...@anet-dfw.com (Edward A. Cowan) appears to have caused the
>following letters to be typed in news:1flxsch.1f8fg1fv1kbtiN%
>eac...@anet-dfw.com:
>
>> And the label Heliodor Historisch issued a pair of LPs with Busch
>> conducting the Danish Radio Orch. in Beethoven's 9th (Heliodor 2548
>> 734) and a disc with Mendelssohn's Sym. no.4, "Italian", Beethoven's
>> Leonore Ov. no.2, and Brahms's "Tragic" overture (Heliodor 2548 737).
>> These seem to have been taken from radio broadcasts.
>
>I remember some "collectors" LP edition in the 1970s which included that
>9th, and I liked it very much (not withstanding some odd pronunciations,
>possibly just a Danish accent, from the bass).
Busch's Beethoven 9 was included in that fine DGG Beethoven historical box (DGG
453 804). The Mendelssohn 4, Brahms Tragic Overture, and Beethoven Leonore No.
2 are included in the recent IMG "Great Conductors" set (EMI/IMG 75103).
Paul Goldstein
David7Gable
>wrote. Are you guys actually referring to the same stuff? Given such
>difference of opinion, the only solution would seem to be a dawn
>meeting somewhere in the Mississippi Delta.
Actually, in all fairness to Walter, my little two-sentence review of his
performance can hardly be considered dismissive. If I really disliked the
performance, I wouldn't keep it. I also agree with Simon that it could come as
a shock to those who only know Walter's late, late stereo Mozart. Pleasant, I
hope.
-david gable
Samir Golescu
Chickening out of the Mississippi Delta Dawn Meeting, huh, Mr Gable? Be a
mensch!
regards,
SG
lastvisibledog
> > of Busch's 1950 (or 1951?) performance of _Idomeneo_ at Glyndebourne.
> > Perhaps someone will fill in the necessary details?...
>
> obscure label
Busch's Idomeneo is on Symposium 6041127402
Edward A. Cowan
> Do you mean 'best sounding' CD transfer of the Glyndebourne
> Don' or 'best CD transfer of any historical recording'?
It's the 'best sounding' CD transfer of the Glyndebourne _Don_.
> But it is certainly better than older EMI issues?
It's remotely possible that the old Vox Turnabout issue on LP was
marginally comparable with the Naxos transfer, but I have not heard it
in years. The Naxos is indeed better-sounding than the EMI CD issue,
which I also have (EMI CHS 7 61030 2, three CDs). I first heard this
recording from the original 78s, which had a fullness of orchestral
sound not to be heard from the majority of LP incarnations in my
experience (the Vox Turnabout excepted), and only from the Naxos do I
hear anything like that fullness of tone that was to be heard from those
78rpm discs.
> Was the Figaro recorded without recitatives or were they
> omitted later?
The recitatives were omitted from the original recording. I might add
that the peasants' chorus in Act 1 and the two _sorbetto_ arias of Don
Basilio and Marcellina from Act 4 are also omitted, as is the little
"unfinished" aria for Barbarina at the beginning of Act 4 as well, such
that Act 4 in this recording begins with Figaro's aria! What is really
disappointing to me is that Heddle Nash, the singer of Don Basilio in
the Glyndebourne performances of that time, regularly sang his aria in
those performances! (See: Christopher Benn, _Mozart on the Stage_, New
York: Coward-McCann, Inc., 1946 (?), p.55. This book is, IMHO, essential
reading for anyone interested in how the three Da Ponte operas and _Die
Zauberflöte_ were staged and sung at Glyndebourne in the 1930's.)
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> Busch's Beethoven 9 was included in that fine DGG Beethoven historical box
> (DGG453 804). The Mendelssohn 4, Brahms Tragic Overture, and Beethoven
> Leonore No.2 are included in the recent IMG "Great Conductors" set
> (EMI/IMG75103).
Indeed they are, and I have both of the sets you mention.
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> Busch's Idomeneo is on Symposium 6041127402
Thanks for that information. I'll be looking for it.
--E.A.C.
Matthew B. Tepper
> lastvisibledog <lastvis...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Busch's Idomeneo is on Symposium 6041127402
>
> Thanks for that information. I'll be looking for it.
Is there not an aria missing that was on an LP issue?
Edward A. Cowan
> eac...@anet-dfw.com (Edward A. Cowan) appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:1flymwo.13wsbodf1dow0N%eac...@anet-dfw.com:
>
> > lastvisibledog <lastvis...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Busch's Idomeneo is on Symposium 6041127402
> >
> > Thanks for that information. I'll be looking for it.
>
> Is there not an aria missing that was on an LP issue?
Someone else will have to answer that question, as I have never heard
that recording or that performance.
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
performances conducted by Fritz Busch:
I overlooked one notable opera performance conducted by Busch:
VERDI: _Ein Maskenball_ (_Un ballo in maschera_ in German, rec. Cologne,
15 Feb. 1951):
Riccardo - Lorenz Fehenberger
Renato - Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
Amelia - Walburga Wegner
Ulrica - Martha Mödl
Oscar - Anny Schlemm
Silvano - Günther Wilhelms
Samuele - Wilhelm Schirp
Tommaso - Willy Schöneweiss
Judge - Fritz Augustin
Amelia's Servant - Friedrich Himmelmann
I have this item on Gala GL 100.509. FWIW, this item once appeared on
CD on the Eklipse label stated to be a wartime broadcast with Helge
Roswaenge et al. When I heard it, however, I first determined that the
tenor of the proceedings was in no way Roswaenge, and then when Renato
entered, the singer was unmistakably DFD, so I knew the Eklipse was a
fake.
--E.A.C.
Commspkmn
<< A follow-up to my previous message about operas recorded operatic
performances conducted by Fritz Busch:
I overlooked one notable opera performance conducted by Busch:
VERDI: _Ein Maskenball_ (_Un ballo in maschera_ in German, rec. Cologne,
15 Feb. 1951):>>
I agree, it's a very fine performance. Wonderful conducting by Busch and a
worthy Riccardo in Lorenz Fehenberger.
BTW, Preiser has issued an excellent CD devoted to this first-rate German
tenor.
Ken Meltzer
Matthew B. Tepper
> I overlooked one notable opera performance conducted by Busch:
Did I miss it, and did somebody already mention the 1948 Met _Otello_ with
Vinay, Albanese and Warren?
Edward A. Cowan
> Did I miss it, and did somebody already mention the 1948 Met _Otello_ with
> Vinay, Albanese and Warren?
I listed it in my original message in this thread, but I did not mention
the cast.
--E.A.C.
lastvisibledog
> > >
>
> Busch's Idomeneo is on Symposium 6041127402
Excuse me - I think the cat. number I gave is all wrong - it *is* on
Symposium though.