Josef Krips and Fritz Reiner
Dontait...@aol.com
of those "Reiner stories" that veteran CSO musicians and (perhaps) the
rest of us relish.
I was told this by a CSO veteran.
Reiner was rehearsing Brahms' Academic Festival Overture. He
stopped, looked at the first violinists, and said in his usually sour
vein
"Vere dit you get dose bowingss?"
The concertmaster (don't know who) responded "Doctor, this is what
we have in our parts after the last time we played this, with Mister
Krips."
Reiner made a sour face and said "Krips? Dey gif me de CREEPS!"
Don Tait
notesetter
Thankss, Don. This and a few other stories indicate that Reiner had a
sense of humor, however fleeting.
There is a story involving Josef Krips some might be interested in.
Most conductors are rather imperious types, but some, like Krips, have
fostered the careers of the musicians who work under them.
While music director in Buffalo in the early 60s, Krips hired a young
tuba player named Ron Bishop. Krips must have thought highly of
Bishop, because the tubist joined the San Francisco Symphony after
Krips relocated there. At some point in their association, Krips urged
Bishop to study with Arnold Jacobs, a musician he had come to know
well during guest conducting engagements in Chicago.
"Mein Gott!", Krips is reported to have said, "that Mr. Jacobs - he
plays the tuba as if it was a violin!".
Well, Bishop did indeed seek out Jacobs and became a student, close
friend and colleague. Ron Bishop was appointed tubist of the Cleveland
Orchestra in 1967 and retired not too many years ago.
Bruce
Rugby
Great story,Don.
Know any about the Reiner,Gilels interactions from the 1958
season,recordings, and onward ?
Thanks !
Regards, Rugby
Heck51
Don. This and a few other stories indicate that Reiner had a
> sense of humor, however fleeting.>>
oh, Reiner had a sense of humor, allright - but it was almost always
at the expense of some unfortunate musican...Reiner, of course, found
his own humor intensely amusing..
Dawg
And what if a player deliberately went out of his way NOT to laugh? Did
Reiner extract some form of vengeance?
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Heck51
player deliberately went out of his way NOT to laugh? Did Reiner
He probably didn't care since his humor had cut the poor guy up
already. Reiner of course, found his own humor most amusing...
his banter with Ray Still - "mit de Orioles" remark regarding Still's
past orchestral affiliation being a classic example...
Curtis Croulet
rarely missed an opportunity to remind his unfortunate victim of a playing
gaffe committed years earlier.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Heck51
wrote:
> I've read that Reiner held long-time grudges against musicians, and he
> rarely missed an opportunity to remind his unfortunate victim of a playing
I've not heard that e harbored them for years - but he certainly held
them during a concert...
He would always catch the eye of the offending musician, with a
disparaging look just to let them know that he knew they screwed up.
OTOH - he was quite generous overall to his princpal players, and
allowed them considerable expressive freedom during solos - much more
so than someone like "Szell - who wa s areal micro-manager tyrant...
Dontait...@aol.com
I'd have to check. I seem to recall reading that the 1958 Brahms
Second Concerto with Gilels was put together from a lot of short
takes, something Reiner hated, because Gilels wasn't very familiar
with the work. But that seems hard to believe, so don't quote me! I'll
try to find the source of whatever it was that I read and write
something.
One strange thing about Gilels and the CSO: his 1958 appearances
(when the Brahms was recorded) were his CSO concert debut. In 1955,
when he and Reiner recorded the Tchaikovsky First, Gilels didn't play
at a CSO concert.
More to come if I can find the references I know I've read to the
1958 Gilels appearances.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
According to some who played for Reiner, once he had confidence in a
musician -- that he or she couldn't be "thrown" -- he pretty much left
them alone. Also, if he had that confidence in, plus respect for, them
they could even subtly talk back to him. Bud Herseth has talked about
a rehearsal for Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra. There is the famous
passage in which the principal trumpeter plays four notes, a sort of
fanfare, several times with the last note higher than the first three.
It's a treacherous brief series. Bud said that at that rehearsal,
Reiner kept repeating the passage. Bud said he realized what was going
on: the orchestra was playing it excellently; Reiner was testing Bud
by making him repeat the passage. Finally Reiner said pointedly, "I
hope you are not getting tired." With which Bud said loudly "it's all
right -- I've got till noon!" He said Reiner got it. He smiled,
ignored the subtle impertinence, and moved on.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
That tendency to try to micro-manage principal players' phrasing was
one of the factors in the souring of the CSO's relationship with Jean
Martinon. Unlike Reiner, who had allowed them considerable expressive
freedom during solos (as you wrote) and thereby implicitly expressed
confidence in them, Martinon went the other way. It caused some hard
feelings.
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
> Second Concerto with Gilels was put together from a lot of short
> takes, something Reiner hated, because Gilels wasn't very familiar
> with the work. But that seems hard to believe, so don't quote me! I'll
> try to find the source of whatever it was that I read and write
>something.
There's a bad edit in the slow movement. I remember reading that Reiner
ordinarily had little patience with musicians who didn't know their parts.
I think it was during the recording of Mozart's Con 25 (IIRC; I don't have
it)with Andre Tchaikowsky, the pianist announced that he'd never played the
piece before, and Reiner said something like, "And you're learning it on MY
ORCHESTRA'S TIME?" So Reiner must have ultimately had considerable respect
for Gilels to indulge him in Brahms 2.
Heck51
> That tendency to try to micro-manage principal players' phrasing was
> one of the factors in the souring of the CSO's relationship with Jean
> Martinon. Unlike Reiner, who had allowed them considerable expressive
> freedom during solos (as you wrote) and thereby implicitly expressed
> confidence in them, Martinon went the other way. It caused some hard
> feelings.>
worst....every cadenza, quasi recitiative, major solo had to be
personally coached by Maestro Szell - every note reviewed,
dictated....
interestngly enough - Toscanini like Reiner, gave his soloists a lot
of liberty, within reason - he would become furious with unexpressive
or "dead" playing....
Heck51
> According to some who played for Reiner, once he had confidence in a
> musician -- that he or she couldn't be "thrown" -- he pretty much left
> them alone.>>
yes, that's true - tho, according to Still [or Sharrow??] he liked to
put everyone "in the barrel once" in a while
Bud Herseth has talked about
> a rehearsal for Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra. There is the famous
> passage in which the principal trumpeter plays four notes, a sort of
> fanfare, several times with the last note higher than the first three.
> It's a treacherous brief series.>>
yes that is a very well-known anecdote that is widely circulated
amongst musicians.
Neil
> of those "Reiner stories"
Hi Don,
I used to listen to you on WFMT from about 1960 to 1982 when I lived
in Chicago. I ran into you at Norm Vogel's record store on Broadway
near Pratt -- One Octave Higher. I lived in East Rogers Park, too --
from 1969-1982. Good to see you here on the Recordings group. Didn't
you have a show playing your old 78s?
Neil Miller, author: The Piano Lessons Book & Piano Classics Analyzed
Methods and theory for confident memorized performances.
To buy, or view pages, search at Amazon.com and books.google.com –
Neil Miller Piano Lessons Book or Neil Miller Piano Analyzed
Dontait...@aol.com
I have found the details about Reiner, Gilels, and Chicago. I
referred to them briefly in my previous reply in this thread to your
message. In his biography of Reiner (Northwestern U. Press, 1994),
Philip Hart wrote on pages 173/4 about Reiner's relationship with RCA
Victor and the difficulties that cropped up:
"A consummate collaborator with instrumental and vocal soloists,
Reiner was in great demand to record concertos. He strongly resisted
being regarded, as he put it, as RCA Victor's "house conductor,"
unless he could anticipate substantial royalties from recording with a
popular soloist. Because of his disinclination to share top billing or
royalties with others, concerto proposals required protracted
negotiations. After a successful recording in the fall of 1955, not
preceded by concert appearances, of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no.
1, he later resisted booking Emil Gilels in concert, because of his
strong feelings about the Russian suppression of the Hungarian
uprising of 1956. (At that time he had conspicuously replaced a
Shostakovich symphony with Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra on a
concert program.) Under pressure from RCA Victor, he finally agreed to
present Gilels on subscription concerts in the Brahms B-Flat Concerto
in February 1958, only to learn at the last moment that the soloist
had not memorized the work in time. After playing the Tchaikovsky
concerto on Thursday and Friday subscription concerts, Gilels, Reiner,
and the orchestra recorded the Brahms concerto, It required six and a
half hours of short "takes" that challenged [Richard] Mohr's editing
expertise. Gilels was apparently oblivious of Reiner's feeling toward
him; a friend reported that photos of only two conductors had a place
of honor in his Moscow home -- those of Toscanini and Reiner."
Hope this helps and is of interest. Incidentally, I think -- but
don't know for sure -- that after the Soviet suppression of Hungary in
1956, Reiner never conducted another note of Shostakovich's music.
Despite some flaws, Hart's Reiner biography is invaluable for anyone
interested in the conductor. He knew Reiner and worked at the CSO
during Reiner's time.
Don Tait
Rich S.
wrote:
Don had an *excellent* show playing his 78s.
FWIW I lived in that area in the 70's (6200 north) and vaguely
remember a store at that location.
Rich
Dontait...@aol.com
> > � A recent thread here about Krips in San Francisco reminded me of one
> > of those "Reiner stories"
>
> Hi Don,
>
> I used to listen to you on WFMT from about 1960 to 1982 when I lived
> in Chicago. I ran into you at Norm Vogel's record store on Broadway
> near Pratt -- One Octave Higher. I lived in East Rogers Park, too --
> from 1969-1982. Good to see you here on the Recordings group. Didn't
> you have a show playing your old 78s?
>
> Neil Miller
Yes, Neil. Thanks for this message. I participated as a producer in
"Collector's Showcase" on WNIB between 1964 and 1972, then single-
handedly produced "Collector's Item" on WFMT between 1972 and 1991. I
did a number of number of other special conductor-oriented complete
series along the way (Koussevitzky, Monteux, Bruno Walter, and
Stokowski). All 78s did come from my collection. And there were other
things, such as the series "From Stock to Solti" (every Wednesday
evening between about 1988 and 1991) and the Chicago Symphony
broadcasts I did for WFMT from 1996, when Norm Pellegrini was framed
and fired outrageously, until 2007.
Don Tait
Rugby
, It required six and a
> half hours of short "takes" that challenged [Richard] Mohr's editing
> expertise. Gilels was apparently oblivious of Reiner's feeling toward
> him; a friend reported that photos of only two conductors had a place
> of honor in his Moscow home -- those of Toscanini and Reiner."
>
Thanks again. Despite all the above troubles, a recording of the
Brahms 2nd that has been seldom equalled, not surpassed, IMHO.
Regards, Rugby
A. Brain
news:01f3a60a-17b4-40bd...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------
Curiously, since this is one of my favorite works
and one of a relatively few that I have multiple recordings
of, I have never heard the Gilels/Reiner or the Richter/Leinsdorf.
I'm guessing they were both issued on RCA within about
two or three years of each other, as well as the
Rubinstein/Krips from around the same time.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Dontait...@aol.com
> "Rugby" <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes. The Richter/Leinsdorf/CSO Brahms 2nd was recorded in the autumn
of 1960 (Gilels/Reiner in early 1958). The Richter recording was
supposed to be conducted by Reiner, but he'd had a major heart attack
a few weeks before and was out of commission until the spring of 1961.
Leinsdorf took his place for the Brahms sessions.
The Rubinstein/Krips sessions must indeed have taken place around
the same time.
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
> and one of a relatively few that I have multiple recordings
> of, I have never heard the Gilels/Reiner or the Richter/Leinsdorf.
I've never quite "got" this piece, in contrast to the D minor concerto,
which I've loved and "got" for many decades.
> I'm guessing they were both issued on RCA within about
> two or three years of each other, as well as the
> Rubinstein/Krips from around the same time.
Correct. The Richter/Leinsdorf recording of the B-flat was released in late
1960. It was reviewed (by David Hall) in the Jan 1961 issue of HiFi/Stereo
Review.
A. Brain
news:lW%Vk.276$QX3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Speaking of "getting it", when Richter's later recording
of this work came out, several reviewers claimed that
the great Russian pianist did not "get it". I was fairly
new to classical music back then, though I never had
any trouble with this piece, but after reading several
scathing reviews of Richter/Maazel, I just HAD to
get it to see if Richter truly did not "get it".
I still don't get it. Last time I listened to the Richter/Maazel
LP it sounded okay to me. Maybe I need to get the CD,
as this was probably 20 years ago.
Dawg
I often think people use the word 'get' instead of 'like'. For me the
Brahm's 2nd pc is so infinitely superior to his first, I rarely bother
with the 1st pc anymore. The portentous and overlong orchestral opening
of the 1st pc is enough to drive me crazy.
The 2nd pc, on the other hand, is desert island stuff.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
A. Brain
I like the 2d better too, though
I also like the 1st. I consider myself
very lucky to have heard/seen Leon Fleisher
play both in the past several years.
By the way, it appears that the Richter/Maazel
Brahms 2 on EMI is available only on a large
set released just a few weeks ago on EMI.
I'm disinclined to buy an expensive box just
to satisfy curiosity, so maybe it's time to
break out and set up the turntable that has
been in mothballs for some time and listen
to the LP.
Dawg
Have you ever tried xferring from LP to PC, and then into some file or
other? I well know that this requires a fair bit of time.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Kip Williams
> Have you ever tried xferring from LP to PC, and then into some file or
> other? I well know that this requires a fair bit of time.
It takes the time needed to play it through, plus about 10% of that for
setting up and saving the file. Once you start taking pops and things
out by hand, you can add to that as much time as you're willing to sit
still for, but that's extra.
Kip W
richard...@gmail.com
> I like the 2d better too, though
> I also like the 1st. I consider myself
> very lucky to have heard/seen Leon Fleisher
> play both in the past several years.
>
> By the way, it appears that the Richter/Maazel
> Brahms 2 on EMI is available only on a large
> set released just a few weeks ago on EMI.
>
> I'm disinclined to buy an expensive box just
> to satisfy curiosity, so maybe it's time to
> break out and set up the turntable that has
> been in mothballs for some time and listen
> to the LP.
>
> --
> A. Brain
>
> Remove NOSPAM for email.
>
> "
Which LP do you have? I bought the UK HMV when it first came out, lost
it in transit, then bought the US Angel, which had grossly inferior
sound. I eventually got it on an EMI CD, but even that does not
mirror my memory of the piano sound on the original.
Richard
A. Brain
news:a9294ac9-a3e3-4e7f...@j35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
I have the Angel LP, and yes, it had the typical
bad sound and pressings of the time. Concidentally,
this was around the period when a family member
bought a U.S. brand car for the last time, and I
started seeking out those European pressings.
Also around the time that Phillips started importing
all their records with vastly superior quality.