Re: Mitsuko Uchida butchers Chopin!

[Andy Evans]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:39:16 AM UTC, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw

Uchida butchers Debussy....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKtVQZUXo_g

[Raymond Hall]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 19:39:16 UTC+11, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw

Has she improved after many 100s of moons? I like her 2 CDs of late Beethoven.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Terry]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 19:39:16 UTC+11, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw

Precisely what is it that offends you?

[howie...@btinternet.com]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 08:39:16 UTC, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw

What interested me most was the seriousness of it. I can't imagine a less charismatic performance.

[Lionel Tacchini]

This is uninteresting music to start with. It takes a need to idolise
something to care about it.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Lionel Tacchini]

Now that's music at least.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Bozo]

>On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:40:33 PM UTC-6, Raymond Hall wrote:
> Has she improved after many 100s of moons? I like her 2 CDs of late Beethoven.

I also like those LvB , at least the Op.109-111. Her Phillips cd of the Debussy Etudes I also have, along with a couple by other pianists ; would be interesting to know her response to the YT comment about not being true to the score, ie " ma non troppo".

[Tony]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:49:28 AM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>
> This is uninteresting music to start with. It takes a need to idolise
> something to care about it.
>
> --
> Lionel Tacchini

Let me help you clarify your comment so it doesn't offend anyone who actually enjoys this music

'This is for me uninteresting music to start with. It takes a need for me to put every action or impulse of others into a framework by which I can maintain a sense of control over what's actually well beyond me.'

Dan is right, she sounds like a typewriter.

[JohnGavin]

Uchida plays it as if she believes it's uninteresting. I've heard other performances that elevate this into higher art, by finding inner voices in the lower strand of the right hand, and the upper strand of the left hand chords, and finely nuancing the dynamics.

Even though she placed in the 70 Chopin Competition, she strikes one as being miscast in his music. She seems to have come into her own in a repertoire that parallels Brendel's.

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 1/31/2016 3:39 AM, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw
>
I don't really understand the contempt in which Uchida is held among
many here. (She's certainly not alone; I know many of you dislike
Brendel intensely).
This certainly is rough, but in fairness the recording is awful--and I
wouldn't want to be judged based on something I'd done 45 years ago.

Steve

[smo...@hotmail.com]

My sentiments are the same: So you found a bad performance by an artist in her youth. So what.

I like several recordings by her. Her Mozart sonatas, Beethoven 3 & 4 with Sanderling and Debussy Etudes to name some.

Soeren

[Al Eisner]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, dk wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmUEqN-wTw

"Butchers" seems like too strong a word. Yes, it's a very uninteresting
performance. But isn't unfair to burden her with a performance from
over 40 years ago? So far as I can tell, Chopin has not been much in
her repertory much since.
--
Al Eisner

[Xiaowu Sun]

I saw her playing Chopin about 5 years ago in Chapel Hill, NC, it was actually extremely good.

[MrBleuvert]

I agree, "butchers" is too strong. I have heard her play both Chopin Sonatas competently but not memorably. She is a classicist (Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert) who happens to play Schumann very well and the 2nd Viennese school. I wish she would record more French music--the Etudes are great, but maybe she feels that other Debussy and Ravel are done well by too many others, which is true.

[Tony]

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 11:10:09 PM UTC+2, Al Eisner wrote:
>
>But isn't unfair to burden her with a performance from over 40 years ago?

> Al Eisner

Not really. It's the most important piano competition in the world, and she finished second, behind Ohlsson, granted not in the strongest ever group, but still second. We look back 40+ years at pianists in their youth and praise them. No reason we shouldn't pan Uchida for this utterly charmless performance.

You can also listen to her Barcarolle from the competition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOiTV5e-Ivk

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 03.02.2016 00:48, Tony wrote:
> It's the most important piano competition in the world

No piano competition is important. Why would sports fan ever think of
talking about music?
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Al Eisner]

But surely, her coming in second despite this sort of performance
is on the judges, not on her. Why insist that she somehow should
have done better with the performance? Even very few great pianists
do everything well.
--
Al Eisner

[Terry]

Some of them even are so bold as to play works in a manner that doesn't fit in with how we think they should go. They should know better.

[smo...@hotmail.com]

That just isn't my experience from what I have heard. An old recording of a single étude is not going to convince me otherwise. I have just been listening to Arrau's final recordings of Bach. I did not like them, but it doesn't mean he didn't play Bach a lot better earlier in his career (I don't know as I haven't heard).

Soeren

[Bozo]

NYT review of her recent Carnegie recital :

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/arts/music/review-mitsuko-uchida-plays-notes-as-delicate-as-a-cranes-legs.html?ref=arts&_r=0

[Bozo]

>On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 3:23:15 AM UTC-6, dk wrote:
> For Chapel Hill, NC?

Chapel Hill is the home of the large University of North Carolina. 20 miles away is Duke University in Durham. 20 miles the other direction is North Carolina State University in the State Capitol of Raleigh. Nestled between between the 3 is the renowned Research Triangle Park, where I believe SAS may still have its World HQ. I saw Rubinstein live at Duke in 1974, and he was good, for Durham.

[Frank Berger]

The SAS Institute (employing over 5000 people) is the
largest employer in Cary, North Carolina. Cary is in the
Research Triangle, but in Research Triangle Park. I always
harbored a fantasy of going to work for SAS, developing the
products that I had used for so many years.

[Herman]

You Chapel Hill apologists seem to forget that DK usually is in three major cities at the same time, like London, New York City and Los Angeles, having dinner in the most esoteric restaurants while being seated in the best spots in Carnegie Hall etc, and he was going to concerts in the USSR before he was even born.

So, in comparison, Chapel Hill is peanuts.

[Xiaowu Sun]

Dan, as an long time RMCR'S member back since the 90's, I have been to many places. Trust me, Raleigh RTP area actually has a very impressive group of visiting musicians. Sometimes they got better deals than where I am here in Boston! Also, as a long time denizen here, I am kind of immune to all the obnoxious comments here. The more we learn, the less I give a damn. Ok, back to my recital concert. Yes, it's Schiff playing, and yes I know some folks here don't care about his play. But, does it matter?

[tom rose]

Am I the only person that does not like her recordings of Mozart's sonatas one tiny bit, and cannot understand why they get so much praise?

[Henk vT]

Op zondag 7 maart 2021 om 20:04:02 UTC+1 schreef tom rose:

> Am I the only person that does not like her recordings of Mozart's sonatas one tiny bit, and cannot understand why they get so much praise?

You're not the only one. But I have yet to hear an interpretation of the sonatas that is easy to listen to.

Henk

[JohnGavin]

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 2:04:02 PM UTC-5, tom rose wrote:
> Am I the only person that does not like her recordings of Mozart's sonatas one tiny bit, and cannot understand why they get so much praise?

I’ve never felt drawn to pianists who limit themselves to the central German-Austrian repertoire, and Ms. Uchida is certainly one of those. I’m generally turned off by musicians who take music too seriously. I think the last straw was reading an interview with Arrau where he proclaimed “Rachmaninoff composed for the movies.” My own choice for the complete Mozart Sonatas is Alicia DeLarrocha. Her wide-ranging repertoire enhanced her Mozart IMHO.

[MiNe109]

I don't like much of what I've heard from her, but I'd rather be
directed to her stuff I might like better. Maybe her Second Viennese
School would be to my liking.

At the end of the day, her recordings present textually correct Mozart
sonatas in competent sound on good instruments.

[Herman]

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 3:22:34 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:

> On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-8, tom rose wrote:
> > Am I the only person that does not like her recordings
> > of Mozart's sonatas one tiny bit,

> You have plenty of company! ;-)

> > and cannot understand why they get so much praise?

> Tom Deacon could probably explain how his former
> employer bought glowing reviews from big name
> critics. Philips were quite expert at promoting
> mediocrities -- Arrau, Brendull, Haebler, SBK.
>
> The only good pianist in the Philips roster was
> Zoltan Kocsis.
>
> dk

I doubt TD 'could' do this, and it's a little funny to use his name this way. You could just make the statement yourself.
London being the capital of the classical recording industry and all its satellites, it did not hurt Brendel or Uchida they live in London and thus were available - although I doubt they did a lot of wining and dining with critics and music writers, since there is such a huge substance gap between professional musicians and the guys who write about them.
I'm not a fan of Uchida's Chopin either, but it wouldn't hurt accepting that both Brendel and Uchida are pianists of huge achievement, just not to your taste, including their core repertoire.

[MELMOTH]

dk a formulé ce lundi :

> The only good pianist in the Philips roster was
> Zoltan Kocsis.

I'm glad you came back, my dear koren...We were getting bored, on this
forum, without your hilarious bullshit...

[Chris from Lafayette]

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 11:21:00 AM UTC-8, JohnGavin wrote:

> I’ve never felt drawn to pianists who limit themselves to the central German-Austrian repertoire, and Ms. Uchida is certainly one of those. I’m generally turned off by musicians who take music too seriously. I think the last straw was reading an interview with Arrau where he proclaimed “Rachmaninoff composed for the movies.”

John - I couldn't agree more! That's like a red flag when I see a limited repertoire like that - and those people who stick to the Austro-German repertoire (including honorary Austro-Germans, like Chopin!) are almost always short on imagination and basic technical chops.

BTW, another denigrator of Rachmaninoff is Angela Hewitt, who, in an interview some years ago, arrogantly belittled Rachmaninoff because "his movements always end with 'dum da-da-dum'". What a smug, condescending bitch. (And Mozart's little "dum dum da-dum" toy soldier motive doesn't bother her? Unbelievable - if I ever have to listen to the first movement of Mozart's Symphony No. 26 again, I'm gonna puke!)

[Tatonik]

I'll third not caring for what little I've heard of Uchida's Chopin, but
then I also greatly disliked Zoltan Kocsis's Philips disc of Chopin waltzes.

I have enjoyed both pianists in other repertoire. I particularly liked
Kocsis in Bartok's third piano concerto.

[Herman]

how is Chopin an honorary Austro-German?

[Owen]

In Poland, the land doesn't change, just the conquerors.

-Owen

[Chris from Lafayette]

Chopin is grudgingly accepted into the repertoire, along with the REAL composers like Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms. - It was just another attempt at humor, which doesn't always land on the internet. ;-)

OTOH, Owen's comment has much to commend it too! ;-)

[Herman]

On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 at 11:17:53 PM UTC+1, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 5:40:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:


>
> > how is Chopin an honorary Austro-German?
> Chopin is grudgingly accepted into the repertoire,

so... you're living in which year? 1900 or something?

[Owen]

My great-grandmother, who was on the receiving end of both sets of
conquerors, preferred the Germans to the Russians.

-Owen

[Tatonik]

On 3/8/21 5:07 PM, Tatonik wrote:
> On 3/8/21 2:15 AM, Herman wrote:

> I'll third not caring for what little I've heard of Uchida's Chopin, but
> then I also greatly disliked Zoltan Kocsis's Philips disc of Chopin
> waltzes.
>
> I have enjoyed both pianists in other repertoire.  I particularly liked
> Kocsis in Bartok's third piano concerto.

On a whim I decided to look up what Richter wrote about Kocsis in his
"Notebooks and Conversations." There was this comment about the Chopin
C-sharp minor Waltz in a live performance by Kocsis:

"What was absolutely fantastic was Chopin's terribly hackneyed Waltz.
He played it as an encore, while announcing that he was dedicating his
encore to me. The other encores were likewise dedicated to musicians -
Boulez and someone else. I really like this rather unusual habit of
treating encores as personal presents."

I guess it's good Richter appreciated the present. One shouldn't look a
gift encore in the mouth.

This inspired me to listen to Kocsis's recording of the waltz again. I
still didn't like it, but it does strike me as an original, direct,
unfussy reading. He brushes the cobwebs off it, The only trouble is
that he brushes so fast that everything underneath the cobwebs turns to
dust.

Then I decided to listen to the other versions of the same waltz that I
have on hand. Stephen Kovacevich wasn't bad - thoughtful, maybe a bit
mannered in a way that didn't appeal to my taste. (Speaking of Tom
Deacon, I believe he praised Kovacevich's the EMI album of Chopin
waltzes in this newsgroup.) Cyprien Katsaris appealed to me initially,
though there was some heaviness to it, not helped by a close recording.
Katsaris brings out inner voices very deliberately, which is arresting
at first but perhaps becomes too much of a good thing. From there I
went to a live performance by Horowitz from 1968 which I quite liked
until it lapsed into self-indulgence with a dollop of narcissism.
Finally I landed on Rubinstein's studio recording from the 1960s, and I
was happy.

[Chris from Lafayette]

Even in 2021, I think there are (unfortunately!) a lot of subscribers to H. L. Mencken's statement, "There are two types of music: German music and bad music." The racist undertones are all too obvious, although Mencken wrote a lot of clever stuff too.

[Tatonik]

On 3/11/21 10:40 AM, Tatonik wrote:

> Then I decided to listen to the other versions of the same waltz that I
> have on hand.  Stephen Kovacevich wasn't bad - thoughtful, maybe a bit
> mannered in a way that didn't appeal to my taste.  (Speaking of Tom
> Deacon, I believe he praised Kovacevich's the EMI album of Chopin
> waltzes in this newsgroup.)

Although I have mixed feelings about the Kovacevich album of Chopin
waltzes in general, I really like his way with No. 12 in F minor.
Something about the mood he strikes seems right to me where others don't
quite get it. Why is this one hard to pin down? Is the opening melody
weaker, more elusive? I don't know.

(I keep trying to run away from the Kocsis waltzes, but they're so fast
they always catch up to me.)