Which conductors DIDN'T conduct/record Sibelius?

[Andy Evans]

I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.

Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.

So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

[Frank Berger]

Looking at my own collection, I see there is no Klemperer Sibelius. Karajan had recorded a lot of Sibelius with the Philharmonia in the early to mid 50s. When Klemperer took over the Philharmonia, he recorded very little other than mainstream German repetoire. I think that may characterize is whole career.

[drh8h]

I remember reading he conducted the 1st Symphony in his LA Philharmonic days. I don't know if anyone has tried to reconstruct his entire performance history.

[Frank Berger]

According to the LA Phil web site, Klemperer conducted the LA Phil in the 4th at the Hollywood Bowl in 1937, the 5th in 1935, the 7th in 1938. Didn't see anything about the 1st.

He also conducted something by Sibelius in NY in 1935.

Do I recall that the 30s was the peak of Sibelius' popularity or something like that? Maybe he couldn't avoid Sibelius in those years.

There is no Sibelius in the forthcoming Concertgebouw set.

I recall a review of some Sibelius by Kurt Sanderling where the reviewer said the pace was slow, in the manner of Klemperer. Maybe we should count that.

[Phl Maestro]

I was actually thinking recently that hardly any of the major Italian conductors over the years have been known for conducting Sibelius, especially the later ones (Abbado, Muti, others who are still around). Toscanini and De Sabata did at least a little conducting of Sibelius' music, but I can't think of any Italians who have made it a regular part of their repertoire.

Conversely, he's been a favorite of many British conductors over the years.

[drh8h]

In the English-speaking world, Constant Lambert's "Music, Ho!" did much to spread the Sibelius "word." Lambert extolled Jean way too much for his own good. Probably the Sibelius Society recordings helped also. Beecham didn't become a devout Sibelian until the 1930s, but he made up for it thereafter.

[Randy Lane]

A few other conductrors I don't evidence ever conducted Siblius:

Andre Cluytens
Jean Martinon
Riccardo Chsilly

[jan pieterszoon sweelinck]

Claudio Abbado has recorded the violin concerto twice, with Viktoria Mullova and with Maxim Vengerov.
Riccardo Muti has recorded the violin concerto with Gidon Kremer.
Riccardo Chailly has conducted Finlandia and the violin concerto several times. He also conducted them on tour with the Filarmonica della Scala.

jps

[Phl Maestro]

Thanks. Still, between the three, that's one performance (or several) of one piece other than a concerto. And I view concertos somewhat differently than other orchestral music in that I assume a conductor learns them in some cases to be able to work with visiting soloists who wish to play the piece rather than because of a personal interest in the composer's music.

[Frank Berger]

Who'd a thunk it?

[Frank Berger]

There are exceptions to every rule.

[Frank Berger]

So these exceptions don't disprove the rule that these guys don't like Sibelius.

[gggg gggg]

According to this:

- Sibelius’ music has not historically been highly esteemed in Germany, and unlike in the UK or U.S., it has never become core repertoire for the Berlin Philharmonic....

https://www.seattlesymphony.org/watch-listen/beyondthestage/simonwoodssibeliusrecordings

[Phl Maestro]

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 3:56:06 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> According to this:
>
> - Sibelius’ music has not historically been highly esteemed in Germany, and unlike in the UK or U.S., it has never become core repertoire for the Berlin Philharmonic....
>
> https://www.seattlesymphony.org/watch-listen/beyondthestage/simonwoodssibeliusrecordings

Other than during the Karajan and Rattle years, that is.

[John Fowler]

Who you calling Ho?

[Ed Presson]

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
news:61f05348-ae34-405a...@googlegroups.com...

I have a vague memory that the High Fidelity magazine obituary for Fritz
Reiner said that Reiner was a fine conductor of Sibelius, and that it was a
shame that RCA didn't record some Sibelius/Reiner.

Ed

[MELMOTH]

Randy Lane avait prétendu :

> Andre Cluytens
> Jean Martinon
> Riccardo Chsilly

And *MONTEUX* !...The best of all...

[Richard Kaplan]

Monteux recorded the Second Symphony--it's terrific.

[MELMOTH]

(supersedes <60303377$0$3260$426a...@news.free.fr>)

Randy Lane avait prétendu :

> Andre Cluytens
> Jean Martinon
> Riccardo Chsilly

And *MONTEUX* !...The best of all...

Concerto pour violon et orchestre en ré mineur · opus 47 (1903 / rev.
1905)
[1] Michael Rosenken, violon
ø Concert 12 novembre 1944 - P. New York - [Archive radio Voice of
America]
* CD : Disco Archivia 625

Monteux, 1950 (Audiophile 101.560)Monteux/Damen, 1950 (Tahra TAH
175-178)

[2] Jan Damen, violon
ø [mono] Concert Amsterdam, 1er novembre 1950 - O. Concergebouw
* CD : Tahra TAH 175-178 (p 1996) / Audiophile 101.560 (+ Weber, Elgar)
- [Origine : Archives NVCR]
Durées : I. 14'50 - II. 7'44 - III. 7'19 = 29'53

Un article en anglais de John Quinn

Un article en anglais de Jonathan Woolf sur le coffret Tahra.

[3] Isaac Stern (1920-2001), violon
ø Concert Londres, Royal Festival Hall, 24 septembre 1963 - LSO -
[Origine : Archive radio BBC inédite]

Le Cygne de Tuolena (ext. Suite Lemminkainen) · opus 22 n° 2
ø [stéréo] Concert 20 décembre 1963 - OS. de Boston - [Inédit ]

Symphonie n° 1 en mi mineur · opus 39
ø c. 1960 - LSO - [Inédit ]

Symphonie n° 2 en ré majeur · opus 43 (1901)
Monteux, 1958 (Rca "Living Stereo" LSC 2342 - LP)Monteux, 1958 (Decca
"Living Stereo" STS 15098 - LP)Monteux, "Eloquence" 460 508-2 (Decca
460508)

ø Londres, Kingsway Hall, 19-21 juin 1958 - LSO
* CD : Decca "Eloquence" 460 508-2 (p 1998) / Anteater Recordings (p
2006 + Stravinsky)
* LP : RCA Victor "Living Stereo" LSC 2342 (p 1959) / Decca STS 15098
592 029 (p 1981)
Durées : I. 10'07 - II. 14'28 - III. 7'00 - IV. 12'01
Son : Kenneth E. Wilkinson
9 Rép. n° 116

« La Symphonie n° 2 de Sibelius est construite avec une clarté
d'articulation éblouissante sur toutes les lignes, une lisibilité
exemplaire de tous les pupitres, à l'opposé de certaines interprétation
globalisantes qui cherchent à faire masse. La conception solaire et
acérée de Monteux qui reprose sur un modelé orchestral très
architecturé et une grande souplesse mélodique, avec une tension
rythmique omnipésente des cordes et des bois, une respiration fiévreuse
au sein d'un flux tempéré par l'égalité des tempos, une transparence
hrmonique lumineuse, avec une prédominance assez sensible des registres
augus, notamment sur les cuivres, est marquée par l'inflexibilité de
l'avancée et la pugnacité des phrasés. [...] Monteux [...] insuffle
sans extraversion ni grandiloquence un courant lyrique puissant, une
pugnacité mordante à ce chef-d'oeuvre symphonique [...]. » (Jean-Marie
Brohm, Répertoire n° 116 p. 64 - septembre 1998)

Valse Triste
Monteux, 1949 (Music & Arts Music and Arts "Sunday Evenings With Pierre
Monteux" CD-978)

ø San Francisco, 13 mars 1949 - OS. San Francisco
* CD : Music and Arts "Sunday Evenings with Pierre Monteux" vol. 8,
CD-978 (coffret 10 CD) [Archive radio "Standard Hour Broadcasts" ]
Durée : 4'57
8/3 Rép. n° 106

[Frank Berger]

And Pohjolas's Daughter and Valse Triste.

[Bob Harper]

Don't like, or like Karajan wrt the Third Symphony, don't understand?

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

The First and Second and the Violin Concerto--works that are less
'Sibelian' than the later symphonies, tone poems, and Tapiola. That's
not to fault Monteux (whose Second is, indeed, wonderful); it's just an
observation.

Bob Harper

[Andrew Clarke]

There's a very well received Rattle Sibelius 3rd available on the BPO Digital Concert Hall. And IMHO deservedly so.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Ricardo Jimenez]

Barenboim , like some others in this thread, has limited himself to
the violin concerto and Waltz Triste. His Shostakovich repertory
seems to be a null set, at least on recordings.

[Kerrison]

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 3:00:16 AM UTC, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:

> >I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
> >
> >Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
> >
> >So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?
> Barenboim , like some others in this thread, has limited himself to
> the violin concerto and Waltz Triste. His Shostakovich repertory
> seems to be a null set, at least on recordings.

It's curious that both Stokowski and Ormandy conducted all the Sibelius symphonies apart from No. 3. I wonder why each of them avoided it. Also, how many Sibelius symphonies did Furtwangler ever conduct?

[gggg gggg]

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 7:05:13 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
>
> Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
>
> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

According to this:

- Even Toscanini admired Kajanus and would not conduct any Sibelius symphonies as long as he was alive.

https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/stokowskis-unusual-sibelius/

[raymond....@gmail.com]

This makes several conductors who have avoided the Sibelius 3rd symphony. For me, it is also the Sibelius symphony I play the least. The first movement is a breezy, dotted rhythm delight, but then the last two movements seem to be a mishmash of direction and cohesion, more than anything, without anything much seeming to be resolved. It would be good to hear the thoughts of those conductors who avoided this work.

One expects most German conductors to have avoided Sibelius, (HvK excepted) as the composer took a long time getting truly accepted in Germany. Same for many of the great Czech conductors, but then they had their own homegrown composers built on Czech idiomatic folksong and speech. One assumes the sunny operatic warmth of Italy isn't conducive to Sibelius either.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Christopher Howell]

One assumes the sunny operatic warmth of Italy isn't conducive to Sibelius either.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Here's a list of Sibelius symphony performances given by the Santa Cecilia Orchestra:

1. Schneevoigt 5.4.14, Kletzki 24.2.63, Maazel 22.3.64, Dixon 24.11.65, Patanè 21-24.1.1989, Oramo 7-9.3.2019

2. Sibelius 18.3.23, Lualdi 19.6.29, Gui 25.12.40, Ferrero 8.7.41, 28.7.44, 1.6.47, 4.6.47, Freccia 29.3.61, Kondrashin 8.11.70, Prêtre 11-12.1.76, Temirkanov 9-12.1.88, Michael Stern 8.9,11.2.92, Tate 27-29.5.2001, 21, Pappano 23.24.3.2015, then toured in Turin, Prague, Dresden and Vienna, Mikko Franck 18-20.10.2018, then toured in other Italian towns, Munich and Bregenz

5. Gui 23.2.38, Prêtre 31.1.65, Segerstam 5-6.11.78, Jansons (with Oslo PO) 28.5.94, 1, Oramo 3-4.12.2012

6. Tate 8, 10-11.4.2006

7. Sargent 1.2.48, Perlea 9.3.52, Gui 14.12.55, Pappano 14-17,19.12.2016

So:

- 3 and 4 have yet to be heard there
- the only Italian conductor who showed interest beyond a single symphony was Vittorio Gui
- interesting, in view of this, that Sibelius himself conducted there once

[Christopher Howell]

Il giorno sabato 20 febbraio 2021 alle 14:40:31 UTC+1 Christopher Howell ha scritto:
> One assumes the sunny operatic warmth of Italy isn't conducive to Sibelius either.

Turin has at least heard them all, but it took till 2009 to fill the last gap (this list, from the RAI OSN site, may not be complete.

- interesting that no.3 had its first outings under little known Italian conductors
- Mario Rossi evidently joins the list of major Italian conductors who weren't attracted by Sibelius

1. Kletzki 29.4.60, P. Strauss 20.5.83

2. Rodzinski 1.4.55, Wyss 20.10.81, Temirkanov 11.1.90, Sanderling 14.11.96, Inkinen 6.3.14

3. Roberto Caggiano 3.1.60, Emilio Suvini 12.2.63, Miles Morgan 14.6.66

4. Albert Rosen 18.1.80, Shipway 30.3.96

5. Celibidache 10.4.70, Hermann Michael 21.11.85, Luisi 30.1.192, M. Franck 17.1.02, D’Espinosa 18.3.16

6. Tate 12.3.09

7. Segerstam 20.1.78, P. Jaarvi 16.3.00

[MELMOTH]

Après mûre réflexion, Andy Evans a écrit :

> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible
> trends?

*Hermann SCHERCHEN* never recorded Sibelius...

[Christopher Howell]

Il giorno sabato 20 febbraio 2021 alle 14:40:31 UTC+1 Christopher Howell ha scritto:

> One assumes the sunny operatic warmth of Italy isn't conducive to Sibelius either.

And lastly, La Scala. Their online archives only go back to 1950 but the picture in the last 70 years is bleak:

1. Kletzki 10-11.11.59

2. Mata 14-16.6.79, Maazel 12-14.9.84, Pehlivanian (with San Carlo Orchestra of Naples) 11.10.07

5. Karajan 12-13.10.51, Prêtre 3&5.6.80, P. Jaarvi 28.2.00, Chaslin 3.10.10

7. Ticciati 11.2.08

[Ricardo Jimenez]

I recall now that I heard a music critic on the radio referring to
Sibelius and Shostakovich as Bruckner's inferior imitators. Since
Barenboim conducts plenty of Bruckner, maybe he agrees. I fail to see
much of a connection between the three.

[MELMOTH]

Ricardo Jimenez a couché sur son écran :

> Barenboim conducts plenty of Bruckner,

3 times !...

[Johannes Roehl]

Ricardo Jimenez schrieb am Samstag, 20. Februar 2021 um 16:20:05 UTC+1:

> >Barenboim , like some others in this thread, has limited himself to
> >the violin concerto and Waltz Triste. His Shostakovich repertory
> >seems to be a null set, at least on recordings.
> I recall now that I heard a music critic on the radio referring to
> Sibelius and Shostakovich as Bruckner's inferior imitators. Since
> Barenboim conducts plenty of Bruckner, maybe he agrees. I fail to see
> much of a connection between the three.

I am younger than many others here but I remember that when I started listening to classical music as a teenager in mid/late 1980s Germany, all three of them (and Mahler as well) would have been considered "acquired tastes". If one goes back a few decades to the 1950s/60s it seems that Sibelius was far less popular in Germany, Austria, France, Italy than in the Anglosphere and Scandinavia. (The violin concerto was an exception, many conductors conducted it but ignored the symphonies.) Similarly, Bruckner was far more popular in Austria than anywhere else (and I think his music is still not very popular in Italy and France). Shostakovich was not modern enough for the fanciers of the avantgarde but a modernist Soviet for the more conservative listeners.
In the case of Sibelius the fact that one of the most famous Austrians, Karajan, did quite a bit of Sibelius, overshadows that many Austrogerman conductors mostly ignored his music (also the Italians: Giulini, Abbado, Chailly?)

[Phl Maestro]

Based on his live wartime En Saga, I wish Furtwangler had conducted more Sibelius. I'm glad we at least have that.

[Néstor Castiglione]

That would have been amusing for Shostakovich to hear. He abhorred Bruckner. I personally hear a lot of Bruckner in Sibelius (and Morton Feldman), but none in Shostakovich.

[Néstor Castiglione]

Sibelius 3 tends to be treated as the ugly duckling of his symphonic cycle. Why this should be so is beyond me. Personally it's my favorite, along with 4 and 7.

Years ago, back in my teenage record store days circa 2000, there was a customer who was attempting to help him write a new ending for Sibelius 3. Claimed that its coda ended too abruptly, that it wasn't satisfying enough. Apparently he had gotten Jorge Mester's interest in this quixotic project.

[Andy Evans]

I lived and played in Norway for 6 years, and that's six summers full of life and joy and six frozen winters with the wind in the trees and snow and ice everywhere. The contrast is important - Scandinavia is a place of both sunny, sentimental optimism and austere introversion and stoicism. And woven through everything is an intense love of nature. This isn't big city culture.

No wonder Italians and a lot of the Southern Europeans don't get it. And probably a good thing they stayed away, apart from the violin concerto which is more of a "European" virtuoso piece. To find conductors who really feel this music I think you have to look to those who have been through some icy winters and have grown up with some closeness to nature. So more the Northern Europeans. You'd imagine Canadians would get it a bit, but I'm not aware of much response up there.

I find very few of the famous conductors satisfy my sense of the "Scandinavian" nature of this music. And when music critics extoll "energy, drive and excitement" I run for cover. Unless you can do stark and bleak and can communicate the stillness and beauty of nature, stay away from this music.

[Herman]

On Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 4:20:05 PM UTC+1, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:


> I recall now that I heard a music critic on the radio referring to
> Sibelius and Shostakovich as Bruckner's inferior imitators.

Listen to music; not to music critics.

[Bob Harper]

What an obscene idea! I love the 3rd as well. The criticisms of the end
say, IMO, more about the critic than the music. The Sixth gets almost as
little love as the Third, but I find it if anything finer.

Bob Harper

[MELMOTH]

Herman a formulé la demande :

> Listen to music; not to music critics.

Ah shit...So I shouldn't have thrown away my hundreds of recordings of
Claudio Arrau, since Mr. Koren claimed that this pianist had never been
able to play the piano ?...

[Johannes Roehl]

Karajan did the 6th, he only avoided the 3rd. I think the 6 conforms quite well to the "cold nordic" clichée. The 3rd is really in between in almost any sense. It does not have the more traditional late romantic sweep of the first two but lacks the austerity of 4,6 and 7 or the special triumphant character of the 5th, so I think it is perfectably understandable that it is less popular (sort of like Beethoven'S 4th or 8th). It seems a bit like the possible beginning of a "neoclassical" Sibelius, a path he did not quite follow later on. (And of course it also lacks the sparkling wit of a more obvious neoclassical piece such as Prokofiev's Classique

[Andy Evans]

<<The 3rd is really in between in almost any sense. It does not have the more traditional late romantic sweep of the first two but lacks the austerity of 4,6 and 7 or the special triumphant character of the 5th, so I think it is perfectably understandable that it is less popular (sort of like Beethoven'S 4th or 8th). >>

You could see it "in between" but for me it's closer to the later works. And for me thank goodness it DOESN'T have the triumphant stuff in the 5th. I'd hate to think that only the bleeding chunks of heroic or romantic Sibelius were thought to have value for the public. For me the heart and soul of Sibelius is in the later works - I rarely play the first 2 symphonies and I find the finale of the 5th tiring. But the late works are special - nothing exactly like them in the repertoire.

[Herman]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2021 at 4:50:50 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> For me the heart and soul of Sibelius is in the later works - I rarely play the first 2 symphonies and I find the finale of the 5th tiring. But the late works are special - nothing exactly like them in the repertoire.

Same here. Love 4, 6 and 7.

[Frank Berger]

I wish I had the musical acumen of so many of you. Then there could be a whole bunch of stuff I don't like, too.

[wkasimer]

> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

Did Solti or Bohm conduct any Sibelius? Or Bruno Walter?

[Néstor Castiglione]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2021 at 1:11:16 PM UTC-8, wkasimer wrote:
> > So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?
> Did Solti or Bohm conduct any Sibelius? Or Bruno Walter?

Walter conducted at least Sibelius 7 and, I think, the Violin Concerto.

[Andy Evans]

> I wish I had the musical acumen of so many of you. Then there could be a whole bunch of stuff I don't like, too.....>>

That's nice. Thanks for that.

[Frank Berger]

But no recordings, right?

[Néstor Castiglione]

I might be imagining things, but have a vague recollection of seeing the latter on AS Disc a long time ago. Haven't seen it since my teens; for some reason it's something I recall having found in the used bins at Liquid Music in Pasadena. The soloist may have been Erica Morini.

Of Sibelius 7 there appear to be no recordings, but there is a New York Times review of a 1942 performance under Walter's direction.
https://www.nytimes.com/1942/10/30/archives/walter-presents-stirring-program-sibelius-seventh-symphony-and.html

[Phl Maestro]

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 10:05:13 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
>
> Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
>

> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

I just searched the Vienna Philharmonic's archives for the years 1922-1954 to see how much Sibelius they played during those years.

Toscanini and Furtwangler both programmed En Saga once. Schuricht conducted the Violin Concerto. And two conductors I'm not familiar with - Karl Krüger and Tauno Hannikainen - conducted the first two symphonies, and the two symphonies were performed after the War.

[Frank Berger]

On 2/23/2021 6:18 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> I wish I had the musical acumen of so many of you. Then there could be a whole bunch of stuff I don't like, too.....>>
>
> That's nice. Thanks for that.
>

I don't think you got the remark. It was in no way insulting. Kind of a mix between sardonic and ironic. Think about it. Or don't.

[Frank Berger]

Hannikainen recorded some Siblius for EMI and Everest circa 1960.

Kruger, interestingly, was American. He had stints with orchestras in Seattle, Kansas City and Detroit. He also wrote a book about conducting.

[Andy Evans]

> I don't think you got the remark. It was in no way insulting. Kind of a mix between sardonic and ironic. Think about it. Or don't.

I did absolutely get the remark. It's very refreshing to read irony in posts without emojis. Emojis have infantilised a whole generation.

[RiRiIII]

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 5:05:13 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
> I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
>
> Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
>
> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

Haitink.

In a Lebrecht book, it was mentioned that Haitink considered Sibelius and Nielsen 2nd rate composers compared to Mahler, Bruckner whose the recording of the complete symphonies by Haitink with the BPO and VPO for Philips were midway cancelled by Philips.

Philips had proposed to Haitink to do Sibelius and Nielsen symphonies instead and due to the poor sales of his Mahler and Bruckner new recordings.

[MELMOTH]

RiRiIII avait soumis l'idée :

> In a Lebrecht book, it was mentioned that Haitink considered Sibelius and
> Nielsen 2nd rate composers compared to Mahler, Bruckner whose the recording
> of the complete symphonies by Haitink with the BPO and VPO for Philips were
> midway cancelled by Philips.

As I said before, Haitink is for me one of the most overestimated
conductors in the discography ?...
He's obviously an excellent technician (and one of the best)...And
above all, he's had the chance to conduct one of the best orchestras in
the world...And to benefit from excellent sound recordings...
I definitely don't understand his success with the international
critics...
His recordings of Shostakovich in particular, praised by the same
critics, are for me a total nonsense...You can't conduct Shostakovitvh
with a Rolls-Royce !...

[raymond....@gmail.com]

Haitink didn't do all the Shosty symphonies with the Concertgebouw. Some were done with the LPO.

They are mostly very solid performances as recorded, done in excellent sound.

I can think of many worse conductors whom I consider overrated.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Johannes Roehl]

So shouldn't you rather be glad he didn't conduct any Sibelius as he didn't appreciate the music? ;)
While conductors are obviously professionals and should in principle be able to give decent performances of almost everything, I think we should grant them their likes and dislikes. And if a highly respected conductor of Sibelius like Karajan or Ormandy admits that he cannot "connect" with e.g. the 3rd symphony I find this more honest than giving a routine performance to complete a cycle (as I would assume Karajan did in some other cases where it was really important for business not to have a gap ;) such as Schumann, Mendelssohn or Tchaikovsky - I don't think he conducted all of them in concerts but did them for the recordings).
I also find it interesting that there are still local differences despite the internationalization of classical music. There is nothing wrong with Bruckner being more favored in Austria and Sibelius a Scandinavian speciality.

[Gerard]

Op 2021-02-26 om 09:53 schreef Johannes Roehl:

> MELMOTH schrieb am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2021 um 14:36:02 UTC+1:
>> RiRiIII avait soumis l'idée :
>>> In a Lebrecht book, it was mentioned that Haitink considered Sibelius and
>>> Nielsen 2nd rate composers compared to Mahler, Bruckner whose the recording
>>> of the complete symphonies by Haitink with the BPO and VPO for Philips were
>>> midway cancelled by Philips.
>> As I said before, Haitink is for me one of the most overestimated
>> conductors in the discography ?...
>> He's obviously an excellent technician (and one of the best)...And
>> above all, he's had the chance to conduct one of the best orchestras in
>> the world...And to benefit from excellent sound recordings...
>> I definitely don't understand his success with the international
>> critics...
>> His recordings of Shostakovich in particular, praised by the same
>> critics, are for me a total nonsense...You can't conduct Shostakovitvh
>> with a Rolls-Royce !...
>
> So shouldn't you rather be glad he didn't conduct any Sibelius as he didn't appreciate the music? ;)
> While conductors are obviously professionals and should in principle be able to give decent performances of almost everything, I think we should grant them their likes and dislikes. And if a highly respected conductor of Sibelius like Karajan or Ormandy admits that he cannot "connect" with e.g. the 3rd symphony I find this more honest than giving a routine performance to complete a cycle (as I would assume Karajan did in some other cases where it was really important for business not to have a gap ;) such as Schumann, Mendelssohn or Tchaikovsky - I don't think he conducted all of them in concerts but did them for the recordings).
>

That's correct. Karajan did not conduct in concerts a lot of Tchaikovsky
(like the symphonies 1, 2 and 3, and the Serenade for strings and the
ballet suites) and Bruckner IIRC half of the symphonies). But he
recorded those works anyway, and better than routine performances.

[Frank Berger]

It sounds like you are lecturing somebody who said the conductors shouldn't cater to their own preferences in choosing what to conduct. Did anyone say anything like that?

[Christopher Howell]

> In a Lebrecht book, it was mentioned that Haitink considered Sibelius and Nielsen 2nd rate composers compared to Mahler, Bruckner whose the recording of the complete symphonies by Haitink with the BPO and VPO for Philips were midway cancelled by Philips.
>
> Philips had proposed to Haitink to do Sibelius and Nielsen symphonies instead and due to the poor sales of his Mahler and Bruckner new recordings.

So he rated Elgar and Vaughan Williams above Sibelius and Nielsen, since he recorded their symphonies?

[Frank Berger]

Delving into the philosophy of the arts: Educated people will understand that liking something is not the same as believing it to be great. This is so obvious when you consider film or literature that it is beyond questioning. Who doesn't have books or films they love and at the same time recognize they are not great. Or the opposite. I am totally prepared to recognize Citizen Kane as a great movie. I can even list and appreciate those characteristcs that are said to make it great. But I don't like it.

So a conductor avoiding a certain work or a certain composer altogether doesn't necessary mean he is denying their quality.

Of course, conductors may perform or record certain things, or avoid doing so, purely for economic reasons also.

[Johannes Roehl]

I am not lecturing anyone. I had the impression that Melmoth was of the opinion that Haitink ignoring Sibelius (in favor of some other composer) was another indication of his "mediocrity". Or why suddenly come up with the claim Haitink was mediocre? Generally, I get the impression that many people find quite siginificant what some conductor conducted or not. Or that at least there should be plausible explanations for such facts. I tend to disagree but I still find some cases interesting, e.g. someone obviously sufficiently invested into Sibelius symphonies to make 2 or 3 recordings of several of his symphonies but not doing one or two of them.

[MELMOTH]

Johannes Roehl avait énoncé :

> I am not lecturing anyone. I had the impression that Melmoth was of the
> opinion that Haitink ignoring Sibelius (in favor of some other composer) was
> another indication of his "mediocrity". Or why suddenly come up with the
> claim Haitink was mediocre? Generally, I get the impression that many people
> find quite siginificant what some conductor conducted or not. Or that at
> least there should be plausible explanations for such facts. I tend to
> disagree but I still find some cases interesting, e.g. someone obviously
> sufficiently invested into Sibelius symphonies to make 2 or 3 recordings of
> several of his symphonies but not doing one or two of them.

I admit (of course! who am I to say the opposite !) that Haitink is a
HUGE conductor!...
Simply, his visions of the works he has conducted do not suit ME, quite
simply...I am not (as that we know) that he CANNOT CONDUCT an orchestra
!...

[Herman]

On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 2:19:08 PM UTC+1, RiRiIII wrote:
> On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 5:05:13 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
> > I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
> >
> > Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
> >
> > So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?
> Haitink.
>
> In a Lebrecht book, it was mentioned that Haitink considered Sibelius and Nielsen 2nd rate composers compared to Mahler, Bruckner whose the recording of the complete symphonies by Haitink with the BPO and VPO for Philips were midway cancelled by Philips.
>

If Lebrecht says it, there is 50/50 percent chance of the opposite being true.

At a certain point Haitink opted for consolidation of his repertoire. Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Mozart (the operas), Debussy, he recorded the DSCH symphonies. Most conductors do this. In his later years he dropped most Mahler symphonies and focused on Beethoven, Brahms, three Bruckner symphonies and that was it. He went on a couple years too long, as most conductors do.
Haitink grew up in the Netherlands, where neither Sibelius nor Nielsen are played a lot. I guess that is part of his prejudice. I could see him doing Sib 4 and 6, but it never happened.

[drh8h]

I wonder if Haitink or Boulez ever conducted a Mozart symphony. I know they both did a few Haydn symphonies. Hard to imagine a conductor living a long life and never touching such a core of the standard repertory.

[Frank Berger]

Haitink recorded #38 with the Staatskapelle Dresden in 2002. It's on Profil 7057.

[drh8h]

Dang, I even searched "Haitink Mozart Symphony" on Amazon and missed it. Must be losing it, whatever "it" is.

[Frank Berger]

SWR 7057 pairs the Mozart 38 with a Bruckner 8, both from 2002.

Oddly, there's a differnt SWR SACD that pairs the same Mozart 38 with a Bruckner 6.

[Bob Harper]

> Probably not; it's just that Amazon's search engine is so lousy.

Bob Harper

[Herman]

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 1:45:14 AM UTC+1, drh8h wrote:


> I wonder if Haitink or Boulez ever conducted a Mozart symphony. I know they both did a few Haydn symphonies. Hard to imagine a conductor living a long life and never touching such a core of the standard repertory.

Obviously Haitink conducted Mozart a lot.

He did the operas in the UK, to great acclaim, and he often accompanied piano soloists in Mozart piano concertos.

Mozart piano concerto - Bruckner symphony used to be a standard concert formula in Amsterdam.

[Frank Berger]

Read the question again.

[Herman]

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 8:03:43 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> >
> Read the question again.

"I wonder if..." is not a question.

[Frank Berger]

Wondering if...... implies a question. Don't be an ass.

[Bob Harper]

Wonder is the beginning of the search for knowledge, so of course it's a
question.

Bob Harper

[Pan Awakes]

On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 9:05:13 AM UTC-6, Andy Evans wrote:
> I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realised that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
>
> Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed Sibelius by.
>
> So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire? Any discernible trends?

I'd be intrigued to hear Mengelberg or Asahina conduct Sibelius, but I don't know of any.

[vhorowitz]

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 4:43:30 PM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 3:24:57 PM UTC-5, Pan Awakes wrote:
> > On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 9:05:13 AM UTC-6, Andy Evans wrote:

> > > I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realized

> > > that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless
> > > I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
> > > Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed
> > > Sibelius by. So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire?
> > > Any discernible trends?
> > I'd be intrigued to hear Mengelberg or Asahina conduct Sibelius,
> > but I don't know of any.

> I cannot imagine Mengelberg or any of the others mentioned grok
> Sibelius. Among German school conductors only Karajan could
> make sense of Sibelius.
>
> dk
Mengelberg is a German school conductor? Who in the German school does he resemble? I’ve always felt he was kind of his own “school", to which there was no successor.

[Néstor Castiglione]

Mengelberg never recorded any Sibelius. He did, however, perform his music and invited the composer to conduct his works in Amsterdam.

As for Asahina, I believe he recorded Sibelius 2. (Just as I was about to post this, I did a quick Google search and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew6XxR_5rWE.)

[Néstor Castiglione]

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 8:10:20 PM UTC-4, vhorowitz wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 4:43:30 PM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 3:24:57 PM UTC-5, Pan Awakes wrote:
> > > > On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 9:05:13 AM UTC-6, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > I was reflecting on Klemperer's Brahms and Schumann and realized
> > > > > that he doesn't seem to have any Sibelius in the discography, unless
> > > > > I'm missing something. He did speak well of him nevertheless.
> > > > > Likewise with Boulez. Two very different conductors but both passed
> > > > > Sibelius by. So who else has a big Sibelius gap in their repertoire?
> > > > > Any discernible trends?
> > > > I'd be intrigued to hear Mengelberg or Asahina conduct Sibelius,
> > > > but I don't know of any.
> > > I cannot imagine Mengelberg or any of the others mentioned grok
> > > Sibelius. Among German school conductors only Karajan could
> > > make sense of Sibelius.
> >

> > Mengelberg is a German school conductor?

> Have you read the fine print?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Mengelberg

> > Who in the German school does he resemble?

> Furtwaengler for sure. Possibly Nikisch, though
> the latter did not leave enough recordings for us
> to tell.

> > I’ve always felt he was kind of his own “school",
> > to which there was no successor.

> Point well taken, but it doesn't rule out predecessors.
>
> dk


Ah, yes. Why, Furtwängler and Mengelberg resemble each other almost as much as Celibidache and Mravinsky.

[Richard Sauer]

Knappertsbusch? I don't think he conducted Sibelius-probably a good thing. I'm surprised at the number of conductors who never recorded Messiah. Karajan, Reiner, Szell, Walter, Toscanini, Bohm, ..

[Néstor Castiglione]

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 6:07:27 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 9:02:12 PM UTC-4, Néstor Castiglione wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 12:24:57 PM UTC-8, Pan Awakes wrote:
> >
> > > I'd be intrigued to hear Mengelberg or Asahina conduct Sibelius, but I
> > > don't know of any.
> >
> > Mengelberg never recorded any Sibelius. He did, however,
> > perform his music and invited the composer to conduct
> > his works in Amsterdam.

> Thanks for the info! Too bad he was not recorded. One
> might wonder if Sibelius' music was popular enough at
> the time to justify the business case for a recording.

> > As for Asahina, I believe he recorded Sibelius 2. (Just
> > as I was about to post this, I did a quick Google search
> > and found this:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew6XxR_5rWE.)

> Thanks for the pointer.
>
> dk


Sibelius had a harder time in Central Europe than he did in English-speaking lands. Why this was so is hard to say, although Adorno's (in)famous dismissal of Sibelius' music being the "worst in the world" attests to this. Something similar may have been occurring in the Netherlands. It's hard to judge how German conductors approached Sibelius as they made so few records of his music. Rosbaud's Sibelius is excellent and it's a shame he didn't record more as he seemed to have a strong affinity for the music. Horenstein made some fine live Sibelius which was a bit on the monumental side; quite bracing and unsentimental. There was Furtwängler's live En Saga, but I don't think it's that conductor's best. Sanderling made a superb cycle of the symphonies in East Germany. Speaking of monumentality, Sanderling's own qualities as a conductor were well suited for Sibelius. His 4 and 7 remains among my favorites. Then there's Kegel's Sibelius 4, which is another fine performance.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 9:02:12 PM UTC-4, Néstor Castiglione wrote:

> Mengelberg never recorded any Sibelius. He did, however, perform his music and invited the composer to conduct his works in Amsterdam.

Not published, but he did record "Finlandia" for Telefunken on April 25, 1941 (mxs. 025669/70), according to René Trémine's Mengelberg discography in Tahra TAH 401/2. Maybe a test pressing of it survives somewhere (Chasa Mengelberg?)

Mark O-T