David Hurwitz's "Beethoven or Bust"
pga...@my-deja.com
r.m.c.r., and also that he has started his "Classics Today" Web site,
which I find very informative. I would like to take this opportunity to
recommend -- especially for classical music "newbies" -- David's book,
"Beethoven or Bust: A Practicial Guide to Understanding and Listening to
Great Music." It is written in an engaging and comprehensible way, and
has a major feature that is especially valuable for the classical
music novice: Much of the book is devoted to lists of three or four
musical works which are grouped according to common themes, style,
historical/biographical aspects, or other attributes, and which can be
used for comparative listening. I find that I return to this book quite
often because of this feature, which has helped me to raise my own level
of musical knowledge.
I hope that "Beethoven or Bust" is still in print. I still see it
occasionally at both new and used book stores.
Welcome to the group, David, and good luck with the Web site!
Regards,
pgaron
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dave Hurwitz
currently out of print, though I am looking for a way to reprint the thing
as some point. My focus now is on ClassicsToday.com, and I hope that you
enjoy that as well.
All the best,
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
<pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:807gnu$l7t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Alain
> Thank you very much for your kind recommendation. Unfortunately, my book is
> currently out of print, though I am looking for a way to reprint the thing
> as some point. My focus now is on ClassicsToday.com, and I hope that you
> enjoy that as well.
Are you the same David Hurwitz who wrote the liner notes for Gardiner's Eroica?
I remember they were nominated for worst of all time a while back in this forum,
but I think you lost out to a famous French record reviewer. If it isn't you
then I apologize, and if it is, well we all make mistakes. Also, on a better
note, I think you are credited in this month's Repertoire with helping out on a
fairly impressive and systematic taking apart of Celi's Beethoven cycle on EMI.
If that is also you then welcome to rmcr.
(Loved your Thielemann review by the way)
ciao,
Alain
mt
<<Are you the same David Hurwitz who wrote the liner notes for
Gardiner's Eroica? I remember they were nominated for worst of all time
a while back in this forum, but I think you lost out to a famous French
record reviewer.>>
Dave has had a checkered career as a critic (in my estimation), but he
could never sink to the depths, so to speak, of an André Tubeuf. There's
trash and there's shit -- an important distinction.
Regards,
mt
Matthew B. Tepper
unseen I have to agree that nothing could reach the level of Tubeuf's
unfocussed and inchoate blather.
In article <382840...@nospam.com>, m...@nospam.com is reputed to have
iterated as follows...
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Adam Dubin
>Alain:
>
><<Are you the same David Hurwitz who wrote the liner notes for
>Gardiner's Eroica? I remember they were nominated for worst of all time
>a while back in this forum, but I think you lost out to a famous French
>record reviewer.>>
>
>Dave has had a checkered career as a critic (in my estimation), but he
>could never sink to the depths, so to speak, of an André Tubeuf. There's
>trash and there's shit -- an important distinction.
>
>Regards,
>
>mt
>
I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear that!
Adam
Dave Hurwitz
Unfortunately, DG "edited" them, and while I can't say they were
unrecognizable, I am relieved that when Alex Ross in the NYTimes slammed
them (as well as you folks) the parts singled out were the ones added by DG.
Actually, the story behind that whole production is very interesting, and
you all might enjoy hearing some "insider" info.
You may recall that in the wake of the success of "Chant," the big labels
were all looking for the next surprise million seller. So I suggested to DG
that they take Gardiner's Beethoven 5th and put it on a CD single at a mid-
to budget price, and sell just that one symphony. After all, it's probably
the most well known piece of classical music in the business. The beauty of
"Chant," and in my opinion the reason it did so well, was its honesty. It
said Chant, the cover looked like Chant, and you got Chant when you bought
it. To this extent, it was a miracle of classical music marketing, since
most of the time "marketing" consists of trying to lie about what's on the
disc by calling it something else (ex. "Le Voyage Magnifique" for Schubet
Impromptus on DG).
So anyway, my idea was to simply call it THE FIFTH, and to use the
"authentic" angle to package and sell it like an "original cast" recording,
with catchy slogans like "Take the Fifth," and stuff like that. You may
cringe, but it was a concept I thought could work. I also recommended that
all notes be in English; Gardiner's pretentiously named "Orchestre
Revoluionaire et Romantique" actually sounds pretty hip as "The
Revolutionary Romantic Orchestra," but the Maestro himself nixed that idea.
Too common. Then they decided to include the complete "Eroica," which was a
big mistake because the piece everyone knows is the Fifth, and not the
Eroica. Playing time is irrelevant. If you're going to have a true popular
success, you have to give people what they expect, not what you feel like.
Then someone thought up the "Beethoven the Revolutionary" concept, which I
pointed out is a problem because it disguises the contents which are the
main reason for buying the disc, to wit: the Fifth.
I was graciously assigned the opportunity to write the notes to this by now
unrecognizable offspring of my original, simple idea. The hideous cover art
and unreadable typesetting were out of my hands, and after I wrote what I
though was a pretty decent set of notes, they appeared in a "revised"
version about which I had been told nothing. The rest, as they say, is
history. I should also add that the disc apparently sold pretty well, but it
obviously wasn't the breakaway hit DG had hoped for (no surprise there), and
it's appeal to the serious classical listener was also, as you have
confirmed and I pointed out to DG at the time, compromised big time. I offer
this not by way of apology for the notes, most of which are still by me, for
good or ill, but rather to simply share with you all a little bit of what
"real story."
Such is life!
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Alain <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:38283471...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca...
> Dave Hurwitz wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much for your kind recommendation. Unfortunately, my
book is
> > currently out of print, though I am looking for a way to reprint the
thing
> > as some point. My focus now is on ClassicsToday.com, and I hope that
you
> > enjoy that as well.
>
> Are you the same David Hurwitz who wrote the liner notes for Gardiner's
Eroica?
> I remember they were nominated for worst of all time a while back in this
forum,
Dave Hurwitz
> >could never sink to the depths, so to speak, of an André Tubeuf. There's
> >trash and there's shit -- an important distinction.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >mt
> >
> I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear that!
Phew! How right you are. I'll take being called trash over shit any day,
particularly from someone too cowardly to answer to the compliment by
signing their name to it.
mt
<<Phew! How right you are. I'll take being called trash over shit any
day, particularly from someone too cowardly to answer to the compliment
by signing their name to it.>>
Dave, it was just one of those incredibly clever witticisms that I just
couldn't resist. Please don't take offense. Any reference to Tubeuf does
things to me... For the record, I have enjoyed some of your reviews in
Fanfare, though sometimes I've disagreed with them. The reference to
trash was not to you but to the infamous Gardiner liner notes. In other
words, it was directed at the product and not at the producer. Because
you're in the business I thought you would laugh at the joke. Gallows
humor, that's all it was.
Regards,
mt
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>and you all might enjoy hearing some "insider" info.
[extended DGG horror story snipped]
Well, that's marketing departments for you! Or as Allan Sherman said
of committees in his immortal "Peter and the Commissar": "They each
put in a color and it comes out gray."
The business about the ridiculous and superfluous title given to Maria
Joao Pires' Schubert Impromptus is, of course, not specific to the
Universal labels any more. I don't think we're going to see too many
Sony "Classical" CDs without a title. Not that I care THAT much....
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
Dave Hurwitz
I personally find the name very pretentious, but that's me. This was a
product intended for the US market only. And yes, I believe that for people
who know nothing about classical music (like the millions of people who
bought "Chant") find things like an orchestra in French, movement titles in
Italian, and such things are both confusing and off-putting.
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
> Dave Hurwitz wrote:
>
> > I also recommended that
> > all notes be in English; Gardiner's pretentiously named "Orchestre
> > Revoluionaire et Romantique" actually sounds pretty hip as "The
> > Revolutionary Romantic Orchestra," but the Maestro himself nixed that
idea.
>
foreign
> language offends Americans? Isn't DGG a German company that sells CDs all
over
> the world? And why is Gardiner's orchestra's name "pretentious"? It is a
> European orchestra, with musicians from many nations, and was initially
> constituted to play Berlioz, and is therefore named after a piece by
Berlioz.
> Why should it have to have an English name? Would you advise William
Christie to
> rename his orchestra?
>
> ciao,
>
> Alain
>
>
schi...@lightlink.com
Fanfare in high regard? (Or is my memory playing serious tricks?)
-Eric Schissel
Dave Hurwitz
else in this tough crowd has to!
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
news:3828d...@news2.lightlink.com...
The Apostrophe Police
> I should also add that the disc apparently sold pretty well, but it
> obviously wasn't the breakaway hit DG had hoped for (no surprise there),
and
> it's appeal to the serious classical listener was also, as you have
> confirmed and I pointed out to DG at the time, compromised big time.
Please donate $10.00 to your local community orchestra.
Simon Roberts
: Are you the same David Hurwitz who wrote the liner notes for Gardiner's Eroica?
: I remember they were nominated for worst of all time a while back in this forum,
: but I think you lost out to a famous French record reviewer. If it isn't you
: then I apologize, and if it is, well we all make mistakes. Also, on a better
: note, I think you are credited in this month's Repertoire with helping out on a
: fairly impressive and systematic taking apart of Celi's Beethoven cycle on EMI.
: If that is also you then welcome to rmcr.
: (Loved your Thielemann review by the way)
Indeed; his concise but suffient trashing of Thielemann's abominable
Beethoven 5/7 makes me biased in his favour.
Simon
Alain
Simon Roberts
: Why did you want the notes only in English? Do you think the sight of a foreign
: language offends Americans? Isn't DGG a German company that sells CDs all over
: the world? And why is Gardiner's orchestra's name "pretentious"? It is a
: European orchestra, with musicians from many nations, and was initially
: constituted to play Berlioz, and is therefore named after a piece by Berlioz.
: Why should it have to have an English name? Would you advise William Christie to
: rename his orchestra?
It may or may not be pretentious, but it's surely way too long; and since
the orchestra is drawn from the usual pool of London-based HIPsters the
name is perhaps a trifle misleading. (Most of Christie's musicians seem
to be French; at any rate, they are on his new Mozart C Minor Mass.)
Simon
Marc Perman
>You may recall that in the wake of the success of "Chant," the big labels
>were all looking for the next surprise million seller. So I suggested to DG
>that they take Gardiner's Beethoven 5th and put it on a CD single at a mid-
>to budget price, and sell just that one symphony. After all, it's probably
>the most well known piece of classical music in the business. The beauty of
>"Chant," and in my opinion the reason it did so well, was its honesty. It
>said Chant, the cover looked like Chant, and you got Chant when you bought
>it. To this extent, it was a miracle of classical music marketing, since
>most of the time "marketing" consists of trying to lie about what's on the
>disc by calling it something else (ex. "Le Voyage Magnifique" for Schubet
>Impromptus on DG).
>
>So anyway, my idea was to simply call it THE FIFTH, and to use the
>"authentic" angle to package and sell it like an "original cast" recording,
>with catchy slogans like "Take the Fifth," and stuff like that. You may
>cringe, but it was a concept I thought could work. I also recommended that
>all notes be in English; Gardiner's pretentiously named "Orchestre
>Revoluionaire et Romantique" actually sounds pretty hip as "The
>Revolutionary Romantic Orchestra,"
[snip]
A CD single Fifth, presented as above, was a terrific idea. While few
if any serious collectors would buy it, the crossover crowd, i.e. 97%
of the music-buying public, certainly would, which was your point. If
I was a non-classical listener vaguely interested in exploring the
genre, there is little in the way most classical CDs are presented
today that would attract me.
Marc Perman
Matthew Silverstein
a foreign
> language offends Americans? Isn't DGG a German company that sells CDs
all over
> the world? And why is Gardiner's orchestra's name "pretentious"? It is
a
> European orchestra, with musicians from many nations, and was
initially
> constituted to play Berlioz, and is therefore named after a piece by
Berlioz.
> Why should it have to have an English name? Would you advise William
Christie to
> rename his orchestra?
I may be incorrect, but I think the English Baroque Soloists were
renamed for Gardiner's Beethoven Symphony Cycle and *not* for the
Berlioz recordings which followed shortly thereafter. And, aside from
pretention (which I'm all in favour of, at least in this case), he chose
a French name because the orchestra was modelled after the 19th-century
French orchestra that appropriated Beethoven around 1830.
Personally, I love the name. It *is* long, but it has a convenient
abbreviation (ORR).
Christie's orchestra is a primarily French ensemble based in France. I
think there is a big difference.
Matty
Matthew B. Tepper
misspelling "Gramophone." Had I been able to collect, I would have a
DVD player by now. ;--)
--
Thomas Deas
Matthew B. Tepper <o...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3829D587...@earthlink.net...
> A couple of years ago, I tried fining people a dollar per offense for
^^^^^^^^
Thomas Deas
Thomas Deas <tj...@spam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:80cmot$qmp$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
Alain
> Like "Chant," this was supposed to be a popular product, meaning like "pop."
> I personally find the name very pretentious, but that's me. This was a
> product intended for the US market only. And yes, I believe that for people
> who know nothing about classical music (like the millions of people who
> bought "Chant") find things like an orchestra in French, movement titles in
> Italian, and such things are both confusing and off-putting.
Oh come on. Americans are not put off by French on wine labels. You can go into
a bookstore and educate yourself about anything from wine, to home improvement,
to making sushi, to dumping your boyfriend or girlfriend. I think that someone
even mildy interested in music should have no problem educating themselves.
Are you saying that the mountain that is the American public with large
disposable incomes and short attention spans will not come to Beethoven, so
Beethoven has to be brought to them? Give them more credit.
ciao,
alain
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <80cn6e$r2o$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, tj...@spam.ac.uk is
reputed to have iterated as follows...
>
--
Thomas J. Wood
Dave Hurwitz wrote:
> Well, I hold them in high regard,but then I'm prejudiced. Besides, someone
> else in this tough crowd has to!
I appreciate the many fine reviews and liner notes Mr. Hurwitz has written. And
I thought the pop-market release of the Gardiner Beethoven was harmless, even
mildly amusing (I bought the 3/5 and 9 disks; when I bought the complete set I
gave them to a friend who's marginally intrested in classical music, and he was
delighted).
As for the name of Gardiner's ensemble: why don't they just call it Sir John
Eliot Gardiner and His Orchestra and get on with it?
--
Tom Wood
Edward Jasiewicz
Marc Perman <per...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3828d8e6...@news.mindspring.com...
> A CD single Fifth, presented as above, was a terrific idea. While few
> if any serious collectors would buy it, the crossover crowd, i.e. 97%
> of the music-buying public, certainly would, which was your point. If
> I was a non-classical listener vaguely interested in exploring the
> genre, there is little in the way most classical CDs are presented
> today that would attract me.
Indeed, this animal was sold as such a few years ago. I know because I
purchased [DGG release #415 861-2, the 1975/Carlos Kleiber] apparently just
seconds before they then released it coupled with his recording of the 7th.
But, the marketing was all wrong; not one picture of a bottle of alcohol
anywhere on the cover...
-ed
David Grayshan
Thomas Deas
Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:80d343$70s$3...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Why, what did I get wrong? You can tell me.
Offence, as in licence, advice etc. But you're entitled to practise American
spelling.
Marc Perman
If the vast emptiness of classical departments in record stores
throughout the US is indicative, the American public is not coming to
Beethoven.
Marc Perman
JHenry1975
>I thought the pop-market release of the Gardiner Beethoven was harmless, even
>mildly amusing
I would have thought that, too, if they'd included *just* Coltrane, Hendrix, or
Marley, but Sid Vicious? As Johhny Rotten said, "I couldn't sing and Sid
couldn't play."
I thought the covers were cool, though. A pity they separately released only
the two cds.
Joseph Henry