United Archives - Bruno Walter Schubert & Brahms
Rich S.
Brahms set & Schubert 9th:
- I did a spot check of the Brahms symphonies and as near as I can
tell the mastering (or at least the sound) is identical to that on
the Sony release of just the symphonies. I did not check every
movement.
- The Schubert 9th is in excellent sound and the performance is as
superb as I remember from the LP. This is a keeper!
- The booklets for both the Schubert & the Brahms contain a picture
purporting to be of Walter & Furtwangler. Walter is indeed Walter, but
that doesn't look like Furtwangler to me!
Rich
Bob Harper
(snip)
> - The booklets for both the Schubert & the Brahms contain a picture
> purporting to be of Walter & Furtwangler. Walter is indeed Walter, but
> that doesn't look like Furtwangler to me!
>
> Rich
I thought the same thing. Maybe it's the camera angle, but it just
doesn't look like Furtwangler, unless he was given a thorough airbrushing.
Bob Harper
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> >
> - I did a spot check of the Brahms symphonies and as near as I can
> tell the mastering (or at least the sound) is identical to that on
> the Sony release of just the symphonies. I did not check every
> movement.
>
Can anyone say if these transfers of the Brahms symphonies are
superior to those on Istituto Discografico Italiano?
Thanks,
Barry
David Fox
Several RMCR members and I undertook a systematic comparison of the
United Archives Brahms with the following other editions:
1. Japanese Sony
2. French Sony
3. John Wilson's private LP transfers
We chose two movements for comparison - the first movement of the
Third, and the first movement of the Fourth. Each edition was clearly
different, and we did not get uniform results with each selection.
Here was our subjective ordering in terms of descending quality:
First Movement of Brahms Third:
1. French Sony
2. Japanese Sony
3. John Wilson's private LP transfer (tie)
4. United Archives (tie)
The Japanese Sony used a significantly different equalization from the
French. It was brighter, but bass-shy. Our rankings were based on
our subjective view of the equalization. Both clearly came from
tapes, most probably the original masters. While it was clear that
the United Archives edition did not come from discs, it sounded as if
it came from higher-generation tapes. It was clearly missing the
level of detail discernable in the top two candidates. Everyone was
surprised at how well John Wilson's transfer held up to the
competition, including Mr. Wilson himself. John admitted that this
was a relatively early effort of his and he was not expecting such a
good relative result.
First Movement of Brahms Fourth
1. French Sony (by a considerable margin)
2. John Wilson's private LP transfer
3. United Archives
(we did not have a copy of the Japanese Sony transfer)
The Fourth was the first one recorded for the cycle and the sound
quality is not quite as good as the Third. As mentioned above, there
was a considerable gap between the French Sony and the other two
editions. This led us to the inescapable conclusion that United
Archives did not use the first-generation master tapes.
So - the French Sony set is definitely the one to get for the Walter
NYP Brahms cycle, unless one has to have the overtures not included in
the French release. It's important to note that all of these sets are
quite listenable.
We also listened to portions of the Walter Schubert 9th. The sound
was excellent for the period (1946), and the performance was top-
notch. Since this is not readily available in any other incarnation,
it is highly recommended. We also listened to snippets of the
Mitropolous box and the Arrau box.
The following day, I performed my own comparison between the Iberia
recording in the GPOC Arrau Volume I and the United Archives Box.
Using headphones, I did not hear any significant difference.
So, my conclusion is that the United Archives boxes are fine
collections and reasonably priced. They contain a number of
recordings that are not readily available. They do not, however,
represent a new benchmark in sound quality. If you already have the
repertoire contained in these boxes in quality transfers, there is no
compelling reason to upgrade. They do represent a convenient way to
acquire a number of excellent recordings.
DF
Rich S.
spot-check. Since I have three of the editions I'll check it out!
Rich
On 29 Jan 2007 08:43:09 -0800, "David Fox" <davidf...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Matthew Silverstein
> Several RMCR members and I undertook a systematic comparison of the
> United Archives Brahms with the following other editions:
> 1. Japanese Sony
> 2. French Sony
> 3. John Wilson's private LP transfers
Do you know whether the French Sony edition (two separate discs, I believe)
compares to the UK Sony twofer?
Matty
David Fox
On Jan 29, 8:50 am, Matthew Silverstein <msilv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, January 29, 2007, David Fox wrote:
> > Several RMCR members and I undertook a systematic comparison of the
> > United Archives Brahms with the following other editions:
> > 1. Japanese Sony
> > 2. French Sony
> > 3. John Wilson's private LP transfersDo you know whether the French Sony edition (two separate discs, I believe)
> compares to the UK Sony twofer?
>
> Matty
I think we had both with us, but I'm not positive. My understanding
is that they are identical save for the packaging. I don't remember
who determined this, but that is why we only included one in the bake-
off.
DF
Matthew Silverstein
> I think we had both with us, but I'm not positive. My understanding is
> that they are identical save for the packaging. I don't remember who
> determined this, but that is why we only included one in the bake- off.
OK--thanks!
Matty
Walter Traprock
> We also listened to portions of the Walter Schubert 9th. The sound
> was excellent for the period (1946), and the performance was top-
> notch.
Eh, I didn't like the performance/recording of the Schubert 9th
compared to more modern stuff, like Muti, etc.
By the way, are their any piano versions of the Schubert 9th?
> So, my conclusion is that the United Archives boxes are fine
> collections and reasonably priced. They contain a number of
> recordings that are not readily available. They do not, however,
> represent a new benchmark in sound quality. If you already have the
> repertoire contained in these boxes in quality transfers, there is no
> compelling reason to upgrade. They do represent a convenient way to
> acquire a number of excellent recordings.
And the discs are nice shiny black plastic, street smart discs,
that have that rap-tastic look like you scored a major find from
ye old hip-hop shoppe.
Matthew B. Tepper
which could be compared with the new United Archives CD?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
John Wilson
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>This was very useful, thanks. Are there other editions of that Schubert 9th
>which could be compared with the new United Archives CD?
The only other transfer I know of the Walter/NYPO Schubert 9 is on a
long OOP LYS disc (LYS 509). It's a decent transfer from the
Columbia 78s (MM 679).
In a comparisons with he new United Archive transfer the United
Archive wins hands down. Just as well since the LYS is not available
anyway.
John
rkhalona
What David said, except that we compared the last movement of the
Brahms 4th where we had noticed some distortion in the UA transfer and
the French Sony transfer does not show it.
Matty: The only difference between the Brahms set issued in the UK is
that it comes on a slim 2-CD case, as opposed to two separate CDs
issued originally in France. They both emanate from France and
contain the same transfers.
RK
rkhalona
On Jan 29, 7:13 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Rich S. wrote:(snip)
>
> > - The booklets for both the Schubert & the Brahms contain a picture
> > purporting to be of Walter & Furtwangler. Walter is indeed Walter, but
> > that doesn't look like Furtwangler to me!
>
> > RichI thought the same thing. Maybe it's the camera angle, but it just
> doesn't look like Furtwangler, unless he was given a thorough airbrushing.
>
> Bob Harper
I noticed the same and I'm pretty sure it isn't Furtwaengler.
RK
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Dave Cook
> In a comparisons with he new United Archive transfer the United
> Archive wins hands down. Just as well since the LYS is not available
> anyway.
The Schubert sounds like it was made in the mid 50s to my ears. Very
impressive for 1946.
Dave Cook
> And the discs are nice shiny black plastic, street smart discs,
> that have that rap-tastic look like you scored a major find from
> ye old hip-hop shoppe.
That did freak me out at first. I thought they had accidently sent me
some kind of plastic blank.
Dave Cook
John Wilson
Dave Cook
> I know I've seen the man, but can't recall the name. Erik Tuxen, maybe?
I can't find any decent Tuxen pics online, but looks likely:
http://www.danacord.dk/frmsets/records/351-53-r.html
I'm guessing he's the first guy on the cover.
http://www.littlebeatrecords.dk/LBR%20web%20Katalog%20DK/Tuxen.jpg
Looks like he was a tall fellow.
Dave Cook
Rich S.
http://www.gravsted.dk/person.php?navn=eriktuxen
Just based on that one I would say that Tuxen had a more rounded face
than the somewhat leaner mystery man.
Rich
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:09:10 GMT, Dave Cook <dave...@nowhere.net>
wrote:
>On 2007-01-30, Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
David
news:pfmur2p3mnov4fpt3...@4ax.com...
has a copyright date of 1947. I did a transfer into the computer over the
weekend, and was surprised at how much impact the sound had after a
plausible correction equalization was applied. This is a performance I'm
going to enjoy hearing more.
David
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:WYKvh.150211$cv2.1...@newsfe13.lga:
A tall Scandinavian? Imagine that.
J.Martin
> In a comparisons with he new United Archive transfer the United
> Archive wins hands down. Just as well since the LYS is not available
> anyway.
>
> John
I'm surprised to hear the LYS is hard to find--I bought one from
Berkshire not three months ago for something like $1.99. Perhaps
it'll turn up there again.
Also, to anyone interested in Bruno's Schubert: Andrew Rose has done
a nice transfer of the LSO 9th from 1938. I found the LYS performance
more compelling, but this one has the virtue of being readily
available by download. (Standard disclaimer: I have no affiliation
with pristineclassical.com blah blah). Perhaps Andrew will even get
around to "updating" this transfer with the new technique he's
developed, which has produced good results with some old chesnuts like
Schnabel's "Emperor." One can hope!
J.
Dontait...@aol.com
> On 2007-01-30, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I know I've seen the man, but can't recall the name. Erik Tuxen, maybe?
>
> I can't find any decent Tuxen pics online, but looks likely:
>
> http://www.danacord.dk/frmsets/records/351-53-r.html
>
> I'm guessing he's the first guy on the cover.
There were photos of Tuxen on some of the covers of his London LPs
with the Danish State Radio SO, and the first guy on the cover does
look like those pictures. (I believe the others in the cover photo,
left to right, are Thomas Jensen, Launy Groendahl, and Nielsen.)
And thanks to all for the valuable information about the Walter
Brahms/Schubert CD reissues. Since I don't have the one under
discussion I can't participate in the speculation about the other guy
in the photo.
Don Tait
Rich S.
>On Jan 30, 11:09?am, Dave Cook <davec...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 2007-01-30, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I know I've seen the man, but can't recall the name. Erik Tuxen, maybe?
>>
>> I can't find any decent Tuxen pics online, but looks likely:
>>
>> http://www.danacord.dk/frmsets/records/351-53-r.html
>>
>> I'm guessing he's the first guy on the cover.
>
> There were photos of Tuxen on some of the covers of his London LPs
>with the Danish State Radio SO, and the first guy on the cover does
>look like those pictures. (I believe the others in the cover photo,
>left to right, are Thomas Jensen, Launy Groendahl, and Nielsen.)
The inside of the Danacord Nielsen symphonies CD set has a better
photo of Tuxen, and it is not the man in the photo on the United
Archives CDS..
> And thanks to all for the valuable information about the Walter
>Brahms/Schubert CD reissues. Since I don't have the one under
>discussion I can't participate in the speculation about the other guy
>in the photo.
The photo also appears (similarly credited) in Ryding/Pechefsky's
Bruno Walter book. It's toward the end of the group of photos that
starts after p. 302. So (if you care to) you can take your best guess
too.
Rich
Dontait...@aol.com
> On 30 Jan 2007 14:33:35 -0800, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>snip<
> The photo also appears (similarly credited) in Ryding/Pechefsky's
> Bruno Walter book. It's toward the end of the group of photos that
> starts after p. 302. So (if you care to) you can take your best guess
> too.
>
> Rich
Thanks! I looked it up. It looks like Furtwaengler to me, although
unusually animated. Perhaps Walter, his old mentor and now naturally
with Nazi issues, might have been confronting him. What seems to give
it away for me is the outcropping of hair above the left ear of the
right-hand guy. Every photo I've seen of Erik Tuxen has shown him as
being almost bald, with his hair virtually shorn around his ears.
Furtwaengler always seems to have had a bit above his.
So I for one think this photo does include Furtwaengler...maybe!
Forensically yours,
Don Tait
Bob Harper
Tuxen. The guy with Bruno Walter looks something like him, but I'm still
not certain that's who it is.
Bob Harper