Can Christian Thielemann be saved?
Richard Sauer
Thielemann is a goner. And DH isn't the only nay-sayer. Don Patterson and
Mark Stenroos have damned CT recordings.. The Met Frau received decent
notices, but reviewers praised everyone around Thielemann, and just seemed
grateful that he didn't muck it up. Did CT screw up in Bayreuth 2002?
Rich Sauer
HenryFogel
>From: "Richard Sauer" chon...@attbi.com
>Date: 8/31/2002 11:00 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <OK5c9.253689$983.528657@rwcrnsc53>
I don't think that's an accurate description of the reviews of his Met Frau -
at least not the reviews I read. I saw a good deal of enthusiasm for his
conducting of Frau. Certainly his Chicago Lyric Opera performances of
Meistersinger some years ago were (justifiably) raved about in the Chicago
press, and by some visiting critics.
Thielemann is a throwback - a conductor who takes risks in his performances,
and who takes what are often considered excessive liberties in today's more
purist climate. There are many in the music world who consider him a conductor
of enormous talent.
Henry Fogel
Larry Rinkel
news:20020831130132...@mb-cq.aol.com...
Henry is correct. Here's what Peter G. Davis, no pushover, said in New York
Magazine on 1/27/02:
"Conductor Christian Thielemann is perhaps the real hero of the evening.
Strauss's bejeweled instrumentation could not be more exquisitely defined or
blended, while the eloquence and sheer theatricality of the playing brought
a sweep and expressive focus to the opera that even Böhm missed. How
thrilling to finally hear this superb orchestra offer a musically searching
interpretation of a great score -- while producing a glorious sound, as
well."
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/arts/music/classical/reviews/5557/
David Hurwitz's review (just a link this time) was mixed, but not a pan; he
mainly complained about the slow tempos and too restrained approach; "just a
tad more excitement could have turned a memorable experience into a truly
great one":
http://www.classicstoday.com/Classics/ConcertReview_ASPFiles/ViewConcertRevi
ew.asp?Action=User&ID=27
From the New York Times: "The brilliant German conductor Christian
Thielemann led an impassioned and revelatory performance."
quoted in http://www.deborahvoigt.com/rev.html
And our own James Jorden wrote: "This production will surely be remembered
as the moment when conductor Christian Thielemann became a star in New
York."
http://www.lgny.com/0175web/OperaJorden175.html
And one more: http://www.sandiegomag.com/opera/diefrau.shtml
If anything, Thielemann's conducting of the Frau very nearly stole the show.
I have heard both the Frau at the Met and some of the Schumann discs, which
I thought were labored and unconvincing. Though I don't know Thielemann's
work otherwise, it may be that his real place is in the opera house.
Markesten
> >Thielemann is a goner. And DH isn't the only nay-sayer. Don Patterson and
> Thielemann is a throwback - a conductor who takes risks in his
performances,
> and who takes what are often considered excessive liberties in today's
more
> purist climate. There are many in the music world who consider him a
conductor
> of enormous talent.
>
> Henry Fogel
Since I was cited as one who has damned Thielemann's recordings, may I respond?
First, I believe that recordings and live performances are two entirely
different things. As one who performed on stage for over 2 decades and who has
made (and marketed) my share of recordings, I can attest that it is a rare
occasion when the frisson of a live performance is captured in the studio. This
even affects the so-called "live" recordings IF those recordings actually
consist of patches drawn from numerous performances. Other live recordings,
like the VPO New year's Day Concerts, are what they are - live, and they speak
for themselves to a greater extent than studio-derived efforts.
In the case of Thielemann, I have not yet encountered him in the concert hall.
His recordings, on the other hand, I have encountered, and they seem to be
largely non-competitive. It's possible that he freezes up in the studio. He
wouldn't be the first musician to do so (Szell is a famous example to some
extent). I believe that I've heard all of CTs DG records to date, and only the
Pfitzner & Strauss Opera CD has kept a place in my collection. His Alpine
Symphony (a live recording) was a disaster; his Schumann set tried too hard to
be different; his Beethoven was irritating on first hearing and worsened on
repeat hearing (yes, that's one repeat hearing). Just my opinion, of course.
It's entirely possible that CT is masterful in the opera house or the concert
hall. I would like to have the opportunity to hear for myself. I certainly
wouldn't avoid him in the flesh based on his recorded output to date.
I would disagree with Henry on the matter of "risk taking" in live performance.
I know many exciting musicians who turn in performances that to the audience
are seat-of-the-pants but to the artist are simply PLANNED to be exciting. I
don't know of any singers who take risks in their performances. How many risks
can one take when the notes, text and staging have all been drilled into one's
head ad infinitum and one must depend on technique rather than emotion to sing
these difficult roles? A cool head and a warm heart was what I was always told
about singing well. A GREAT singer can bring more excitement to a performance
by opening a vowel slightly or using a well-controlled mezza di voce than all
the foot-stomping or in-extremiis yelping could ever hope to accomplish.
I may be wrong here, but it's been my experience that the Heifietzs, Carusos,
and Toscaninis of musical history had no trouble creating excitement on a
nightly basis simply by offering up their stock-in-trade at a very high level
of artistic accomplishment. Same with Jon Vickers who even on a night when his
voice was disintigrating found a way to give an electrifying performance. Same
with Karl Bohm whose final Met Fidelios and Fraus were the definition of
"electric," even though they sounded pretty much like the performances he gave
there a few years earlier.
I guess my point with Thielemann is that ON RECORDS, at least, he sounds to be
the type of musician who feels the need to impose something on the music,
rather than finding excitement right where the composer put it - in the score.
In this, I wouldn't even say that he's imposing himself. The records just don't
sound intuitive to me. Maybe down the road he'll make records that are
"keepers," unless DG decides to cut him loose like they have everybody else!
And, I reiterate, I would love to encounter him in the concert hall to see if
he's more on his game there than on record.
Finally - as far as I'm concerned, the jury is always out with musicians until
I hear them in the concert hall. Recordings are simply not representative of
the concert hall, and they're NOT representative of a musician's abilities,
nowadays more than ever when engineers can throw recorded tracks into Pro Tools
and alter intonation, tempo and colour to their satisfaction.
Mark Stenroos
Simon Roberts
"Markesten" <mark...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020831155346...@mb-md.aol.com...
>
> In the case of Thielemann, I have not yet encountered him in the
concert hall.
> His recordings, on the other hand, I have encountered, and they seem
to be
> largely non-competitive. It's possible that he freezes up in the
studio.
Maybe, but then it would be amusingly paradoxical that much of the time
the result of this freezing is a lot of shapeless oozing....
He
> wouldn't be the first musician to do so (Szell is a famous example to
some
> extent). I believe that I've heard all of CTs DG records to date, and
only the
> Pfitzner & Strauss Opera CD has kept a place in my collection. His
Alpine
> Symphony (a live recording) was a disaster; his Schumann set tried too
hard to
> be different; his Beethoven was irritating on first hearing and
worsened on
> repeat hearing (yes, that's one repeat hearing). Just my opinion, of
course.
Agree (except I've not heard the Alpine Symphony). He's OK -- but
surely not the revelation found by some reviewers -- on the recent
Quasthof recital of largely obscure German arias. I've not heard him
live either, and I suppose that if he were to come nearby and conduct
music I care about I would give him a try. I would note, though, that
many of the discs you and I (and others) don't like have received rather
high praise (Gramophone's reviewers were especially enthusiastic about
his dreadful Beethoven 5/7 and Schumann, for instance).
> I would disagree with Henry on the matter of "risk taking" in live
performance.
> I know many exciting musicians who turn in performances that to the
audience
> are seat-of-the-pants but to the artist are simply PLANNED to be
exciting.
Maybe Henry's referring to the riskiness in these relatively literalist
days of offering performances with such a variety of tempi where usually
only a narrow degree of fluctuation is encountered/tolerated.
> I may be wrong here, but it's been my experience that the Heifietzs,
Carusos,
> and Toscaninis of musical history had no trouble creating excitement
on a
> nightly basis simply by offering up their stock-in-trade at a very
high level
> of artistic accomplishment. Same with Jon Vickers who even on a night
when his
> voice was disintigrating found a way to give an electrifying
performance. Same
> with Karl Bohm whose final Met Fidelios and Fraus were the definition
of
> "electric," even though they sounded pretty much like the performances
he gave
> there a few years earlier.
I have no objection to "taking liberties" if the results work. To these
ears they don't (and, given the atypically sub-par quality of the
orchestral playing on the Beethoven and Schumann discs, they evidently
didn't persuade the Philharmonia, either). He sounds as though he's
trying to be different, rather than just being different, but not in the
process creating differences that are persuasive. No doubt he's pleased
that so many critics hear in him an attempt to recreate
Furtwaenglerisms, and perhaps surprised to see himself, in one case,
compared to Klemperer, of all people. Penguin, writing about his
Beethoven 5/7 is typically idiotic (Greenfield's work, I suspect):
"Christian Thielemann is an exceptionally positive interpreter, daring
in these two Beethoven warhorses to fly boldly in the face of current
fashion,opting for broad speeds and resonant textures to remind one of
the weighty Klemperer with this same orchestra, yet with speeds
fluctuating in a manner far nearer to Furtwaengler. The results are
magnetic, with outstanding playing from the Philharmonia and vivid
digital recording, this is an excellent recommendation for anyone
wanting a traditional view with modern sound." There's so much wrong
in that brief passage I'll just let it, um, speak for itself....
[snip]
> Finally - as far as I'm concerned, the jury is always out with
musicians until
> I hear them in the concert hall. Recordings are simply not
representative of
> the concert hall, and they're NOT representative of a musician's
abilities,
> nowadays more than ever when engineers can throw recorded tracks into
Pro Tools
> and alter intonation, tempo and colour to their satisfaction.
So the Beethoven and Schumann might have been even worse without
tinkering by engineers....
Simon
David Hurwitz
>and who takes what are often considered excessive liberties in today's more
>purist climate. There are many in the music world who consider him a conductor
>of enormous talent.
>
>Henry Fogel
Theilemann is assuredly NOT a throwback to anything. A few weird tempos do not
an apostle of the "old school" make, Henry, and I would suggest the jury is
still out on just what aesthetic tradition CT will ultimately belong too. The
problem with CT, I find, is just the opposite of what you cite: I have seldom
encountered a conductor live or on discs less exciting, more predictable, or
more risk averse. His MET "Frau," which was in most respect quite respectable,
lacked the excitment, the "letting go" that this extravagant score demands, and
was instead micro-managed and restrained to a fault. The same holds true for
most of his recordings, which I find cautious and tentative, with slow tempos
and slack rhythm compounding a casual approach to matters of balance and
dynamics, all of which are clearly audible whether or not you bother to listen
score in hand or even care about such things. I cannot believe that this is what
you mean, Henry, by "old school." Having ideas and excecuting them poorly is not
"old school," it's simply incompetent. More to the point, he has
self-consciously positioned himself as an advocate of the traditional German
school without the slightest evidence (and much to the contrary) that he has
much affinity for the repertoire in question. I would nominate Barenboim far
more readily as the upholder of the tradition that CT calls his own.
Dave Hurwitz
G POLLIONI
based on the review in the New York Times, only the birtone who sang Wolfram
and Thielemann were worthy of a second glance in theis year's ill-fated
Bayreuth Tannhauser. I attended the premiere of Frau at the Met on 12/13, and
Thielemann was superb -- AND most of the New York papers said as much.
All that said, his is extremely variable in his recordings of German classics
of the Romantic period. His Beethoven and Schumann records were decently
enough played, but seemed interpretively all over the lot. I "temporarily
owned" these CDs, and that in and of itself should say just about all. He's a
particularly good conductor of German opera, but I do not find his symphonic
work, at least thus far in the literature above withstands the acid test of
repeated hearings.
Gene
tiger_131074
news:OK5c9.253689$983.528657@rwcrnsc53:
His Wagner (Meistersinger, Lohengrin, Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde on DG)
and Schoenberg: Pelleas & Melisande seem to have reached certain aclaim.
Any comments?
HenryFogel
You may have misunderstood my meaning by "risk taking". I didn't mean that he
didn't plan his performances, though I think there is a certain spontaneous
element, albeit a relatively minor one. By "risk taking," I meant that he was
not afraid of intepretive extremes, whether of tempo or dynamics or other
interpretive choices -- something that most performers won't risk today.
Thielemann did a quite extraordinary Beethoven 6th and 5th in Chicago with the
CSO some six years ago (approximately), and the concert was a huge success with
audiences and musicians, and even reaction to the broadcast which came in the
following season. They were performances of extremes, in the mold of
Furtwangler and Mengelberg (copies of neither, I would add) -- a style that I
believe is very rare today. What I meant by "risk taking" was that he was
unafraid to try such an approach out in a time when few are willing to (or,
perhaps, few feel the music that way now).
Henry Fogel
Samir Golescu
On 1 Sep 2002, HenryFogel wrote:
> You may have misunderstood my meaning by "risk taking". I didn't mean that he
> didn't plan his performances, though I think there is a certain spontaneous
> element, albeit a relatively minor one. By "risk taking," I meant that he was
> not afraid of intepretive extremes, whether of tempo or dynamics or other
> interpretive choices -- something that most performers won't risk today.
Indeed. Taking risks asks for a superior kind of control.
> Thielemann did a quite extraordinary Beethoven 6th and 5th in Chicago with the
> CSO some six years ago (approximately), and the concert was a huge success with
> audiences and musicians, and even reaction to the broadcast which came in the
> following season. They were performances of extremes, in the mold of
> Furtwangler and Mengelberg (copies of neither, I would add) -- a style that I
> believe is very rare today. What I meant by "risk taking" was that he was
> unafraid to try such an approach out in a time when few are willing to (or,
> perhaps, few feel the music that way now).
What you say interests me greatly. Should I understand the concert was
drastically different from (or, say, much better, on the same lines, than)
the studio recording of the 5th? If yes, is there any chance to have them
released sometime?
regards,
SG
Brendan R. Wehrung
Very true words, which fit dscriptions of how many of the "great"
coductors worked. While a facile answer might be that Thielmann simply
lacks the ultimate in technique (at this point in his career) to
conceptualize his interpretation for the musicians in the time allowed for
rehearsal and deliver it to an audience or microphone, it may be his is
still a "wayward" heart that needs refining to convince one and all of the
rightness of whatever his personal interpretation is. From some of the
reviews cited, he can impress. The Heifietzs, Carusos, and Toscaninis of
musical history (to cite the examplars below) had evertying in hand
emotionally, intellectually and technically before the event, as did
Furtwaengler, Mengelberg, Walter (perhaps to a lesser extent) (or others
who might be more of Hurwitz's favorites), so that the additions of the
moment laid on a well-thought-out musical landscape have great
significance. This is a level of subtlety that Mr. Thielmann seeminly
does not often achieve; perhaps he will, although another aspect of
acknowledged "great" conducts is that they **did this every night.**
Brendan
Peter and Kathleen Greenstein
> conducting of Frau. Certainly his Chicago Lyric Opera performances of
> Meistersinger some years ago were (justifiably) raved about in the Chicago
> press, and by some visiting critics.
>
> Thielemann is a throwback - a conductor who takes risks in his
performances,
> and who takes what are often considered excessive liberties in today's
more
> purist climate. There are many in the music world who consider him a
conductor
> of enormous talent.
>
> Henry Fogel
I just listened to Thielemann's Meistersinger at Bayreuth on Internet Radio.
I thought it was beautifully conducted. Listen for yourself on Wednesday,
Sept. 25, 9am EST on radio from Norway:
http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth02.htm#meister31
peter
Markesten
<< By "risk taking," I meant that he was
not afraid of intepretive extremes, whether of tempo or dynamics or other
interpretive choices -- something that most performers won't risk today. >>
Thanks for the clarification. We may be engaged in a semantic disagreement on
this one.
I'll be very interested to hear CT live at some point. I'll be more interested
in hearing him 10 or 15 years down the line. It's been my experience that while
the master conductors - and in that company I would place Toscanini, Szell,
Karajan, Furtwangler, Maazel, Solti, Klemperer and a host of others - find a
way to make every performance fresh, they more importantly exhibit a remarkable
interpretive consistency from decade to decade. I wouldn't expect that the kind
of interpretive choices CT has made to date will hold up over time, either with
audiences...or with the artist himself.
Mark
HenryFogel
>From: Samir Golescu gol...@uiuc.edu
>Date: 8/31/2002 11:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.31.020831...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Yes, the live performances were dramatically different - but his contractual
relationship with DG will prevent release of these concerts.
Henry Fogel
Sacqueboutier
mark...@aol.com wrote on 8/31/02 3:53 PM:
>
> I guess my point with Thielemann is that ON RECORDS, at least, he sounds to be
> the type of musician who feels the need to impose something on the music,
> rather than finding excitement right where the composer put it - in the score.
> In this, I wouldn't even say that he's imposing himself.
For my part, I don't even mind a conductor imposing his/her own
ideas on the music. I just don't think Theilemann is very
successful in doing so on disc. I'll agree with Mark for the
large part of his post. I cannot comment on CT in concert as,
like Mark, I haven't had the pleasure. But based on the several
recordings I've heard, I find CT's mannerisms artificial and shallow.
Perhaps he will get better at it as his career progresses. Right now,
he sounds as though he's listened to the Mengelwangler recording of
the [insert title], and is trying to reproduce it. Yet, his
recordings miss the sense of seamlessness that I hear in those
conductors.
--
Don Patterson
DCP Music Printing
Professional Music Copy
and Arrangements
don...@olg.com
"Sometimes I wonder. We are told that the little things
in life are what make life worth living. Then we are
told, "Don't sweat the small stuff". Does this mean that
if the little things in life don't happen, and we don't
'sweat it', life is not worth living?"
Sacqueboutier
David_...@newsguy.com wrote on 8/31/02 6:59 PM:
> I would nominate Barenboim far
> more readily as the upholder of the tradition that CT calls his own.
Here, here.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:B997E783.4851%don...@olg.com:
> in article 20020831155346...@mb-md.aol.com, Markesten at
> mark...@aol.com wrote on 8/31/02 3:53 PM:
>
>>
>> I guess my point with Thielemann is that ON RECORDS, at least, he
>> sounds to be the type of musician who feels the need to impose
>> something on the music, rather than finding excitement right where
>> the composer put it - in the score. In this, I wouldn't even say that
>> he's imposing himself.
>
> For my part, I don't even mind a conductor imposing his/her own ideas
> on the music. I just don't think Theilemann is very successful in
> doing so on disc. I'll agree with Mark for the large part of his post.
> I cannot comment on CT in concert as, like Mark, I haven't had the
> pleasure. But based on the several recordings I've heard, I find CT's
> mannerisms artificial and shallow. Perhaps he will get better at it as
> his career progresses. Right now, he sounds as though he's listened to
> the Mengelwangler recording of the [insert title], and is trying to
> reproduce it. Yet, his recordings miss the sense of seamlessness that
> I hear in those conductors.
I've endured his Schumann 2nd while driving (KUSC seems to broadcast the
Schumann symphonies more frequently than those of Beethoven; you figure
that out!), and every measure is perfectly played, all by itself, as
though squeezed from a tube of toothpaste.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Olaf
<pgre...@attbi.com> wrote:
snipped
>
>I just listened to Thielemann's Meistersinger at Bayreuth on Internet Radio.
>I thought it was beautifully conducted. Listen for yourself on Wednesday,
>Sept. 25, 9am EST on radio from Norway:
>http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth02.htm#meister31
>
>
>peter
>
So did I, and I agree with your judgement. Having heard (over the
radio) several of the Barenboim Bayreuth performances of Die
Meistersinger (of the same production), to my mind Thielemann is in
the same league.
(The Barenboim Teldec-recording was not as great as some earlier
performances that were broadcast.)
I also heard his Bayreuth Tannhäuser when the first night was
broadcast, and was most impressed.
As to the rebroadcast from Norway on Sept 25 - their Internet stream
is very reliable - but for US listeners it starts at 9 in the morning!
Olaf
Olaf
Aki Anton
in Gramophone, then described the Fifth as terminally boring in his BBC
R3 survey of the symphony. Very strange...
--
Simon Roberts <sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:akrej6$ffe$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:akvegf$ddv$1
@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net:
> I noted that Richard Osborne praised (more or less) the Beethoven 5 & 7
> in Gramophone, then described the Fifth as terminally boring in his BBC
> R3 survey of the symphony. Very strange...
Maybe a cheque bounced in the interim? ;--)
Todd Kay
Todd K (who was not impressed with CT's "godless" Schumann cycle, and damned it
to the second-hand store)
Samir Golescu
On 2 Sep 2002, Todd Kay wrote:
> I read the title and thought that r.m.c.r. had taken on an evangelical
> bent...
I am trying my best but Alan Cooper is bugging me with details
such as biblical facts and actual knowledge.
> Todd K (who was not impressed with CT's "godless" Schumann cycle, and
> damned it to the second-hand store)
That might have been your demiurgical notion of a modern Purgatory.
regards,
SG
Gabriel Jackson
>Date: 02/09/02 11:27 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <akvegf$ddv$1...@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net>
Entirely typical. Richard Osborne is a fool.
John Wilson
wrote:
>
>On 2 Sep 2002, Todd Kay wrote:
>
>> I read the title and thought that r.m.c.r. had taken on an evangelical
>> bent...
>
>I am trying my best but Alan Cooper is bugging me with details
>such as biblical facts and actual knowledge.
>
Evangelicals don't let actual facts get in their way.
John
Sorach Chanthongkaew
the test with this much influenced piece of the said.
Bruce Hodges
I liked the Met's "Frau" so much that I went twice - it was that
striking, both musically and visually. A big part of the effect was
Thielemann's conducting (and the superb musicians in the Met
Orchestra, of course). He seemed totally immersed in the score, in
the best sense.
The only Thielemann recording I have is the recent Thomas Quasthoff
"Evening Star," which I like a lot, but it's mostly (probably) because
Quasthoff sounds so magnificent.
--Bruce
Barry Zukerman
Thielemann also conducted Beethoven's 5th when he made his debut with
the Philadelphia Orchestra, probably seven or eight years ago, and it
was the most thrilling fifth I've ever heard in concert (and it's a
piece I've probably heard live more than any other over the years). I
definately felt like I was listening to a throwback performance
(throwback to the German conductors of the first half of the 20th
century)) in terms of his tempo choices and the way he accented
climaxes.
I saw all of Thielemann's programs in Philly (there were five or six
of them) and was generally impressed with him; but that Beethoven was
definately the highlight of his performances here. I felt it was
better than his recording of the fifth, which I actually like more
than most; although the seventh on the same disk is hard to take. I
also like his Wagner orchestral excerpts disk on DG with the
Philadelphians. I was a little less enthusiastic about his Alpine
Symphony and haven't heard any of his other recordings.
Barry
Jeffrey Friedman
bho...@rocketmail.com (Bruce Hodges) wrote:
>I liked the Met's "Frau" so much that I went twice - it was that
>striking, both musically and visually. A big part of the effect was
>Thielemann's conducting (and the superb musicians in the Met
>Orchestra, of course). He seemed totally immersed in the score, in
>the best sense.
>
Same here, except I went four times. Someone on the
Compuserve Opera forum whom I know went six times,
but that's a bit excessive I think.
It was totally marvelous.
Jeff
Jeffrey F. Friedman
je...@friedman.com
j...@ix.netcom.com
Sorach Chanthongkaew
Report: Concertgebouw Musicians Prefer Jansons as Music Director
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette / andante - 5 September 2002
The Dutch newspaper De Volksrant says that the musicians of Amsterdam's
Concertgebouw Orchestra would like Mariss Jansons to be their next music
director, according to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
Christian Thielemann and Jansons, who steps down from his posts in Oslo and
Pittsburgh over the next two years, are said to be the leading candidates to
replace Riccardo Chailly in the post.
Pittsburgh Symphony managing director Gideon Toeplitz told the Post-Gazette
that he believes that Jansons has already been offered the post and is
considering it. He also suggested that the musicians' wishes would influence
Janson's decision. "When Jansons was considering coming to the Pittsburgh
Symphony," Toeplitz said, "he constantly asked, 'Are you sure the musicians
want me to come?' "
- Ben Mattison
Sorach Chanthongkaew
Christian Thielemann
Evening Star: German Opera Arias
Any comments to this disc?
HenryFogel
>From: "Sorach Chanthongkaew" sor...@cscoms.com
>Date: 9/28/2002 9:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <an5n93$i91$1...@news.cscoms.com>
Yes. The singing and the conducting are beautiful, sensitive, dramatic, and
highly idiomatic. Quastoff and Thielemann are completely in tune with each
other, and seem to feed off each other. This is one of the better operatic
recital discs I've heard in a long time.
Henry Fogel
Brendan R. Wehrung
Perhaps this is a question you would prefer to put off until you are
"retired," but how far do you think Thielmann is from being ready for
prime time, such as a post at an orchestra like the Chicago Symphony?
Right now he sounds sort of uneven, feeling his way, but with potential
that you certainly see in the above recording. A conductor of a major
orchestra is expected to be superlative each and every time (although none
actually are, except in the memory of those who went to his concerts 50
years ago) in all styles of music. thieldmann is probably worth hiring as
a guest because he could indeed do something memorable. Will had pass on
to the next level?
Brendan
George Murnu
> >
> > Henry Fogel
>
> Perhaps this is a question you would prefer to put off until you are
> "retired," but how far do you think Thielmann is from being ready for
> prime time, such as a post at an orchestra like the Chicago Symphony?
> Right now he sounds sort of uneven, feeling his way, but with potential
> that you certainly see in the above recording. A conductor of a major
> orchestra is expected to be superlative each and every time (although none
> actually are, except in the memory of those who went to his concerts 50
> years ago) in all styles of music. thieldmann is probably worth hiring as
> a guest because he could indeed do something memorable. Will had pass on
> to the next level?
>
> Brendan
They say that Munich Philharmonic wants him as Levine's successor; if
Concertgebouw fails, I bet Thielemann will take the Munich post if only
to be head to head with Jansons.
Regards,
George
HenryFogel
I don't mind addressing it, at least to some degree, now. Thielemann is
undoubtedly a gifted musician and conductor. His CSO debut (which was his
American symphonic debut - substituting for Tennstedt) was a great success with
audience and musicians alike. His second visit less so, and he then cancelled a
subsequent appearance for health reasons. I've also seen his superb Frau ohne
Schatten at the Met and Meistersinger at Lyric Opera. Like many young
conductors, he is uneven, and we expect too much too soon - particularly
because he has, perhaps prematurely, been pushed as a "superstar" at a very
early age. He will certainly make poor choices from time to time, musically
and otherwise -- but I believe there is no denying his substantial musical
talent. He should be permitted to grow and mature in a post that is not one of
the world's top five or ten posts, in my view, limiting those highly visible
appearances to repertoire he is secure with and has done a good deal before
that exposure.
Henry Fogel
Brendan R. Wehrung
If I may address a collateral question posed by Mr. Young--that a "young"
conductor simply doesn't have the time, or more importantly the
opportunity to practice with his instrument and that (if a quick reading
of his post was correct) a winner of a competition should be be offered
opportunities with major ensembles.
Frankly, this would be unprecended in music history. Any dead "great"
condutor worked his way up from the boonies to minor positions in major
opera houses, and then took the spotlight thorugh happenstance or hard
work.
Training is much better today, but the need to practice and learn one's
inner self remains, and it ain't going to be in front of the CSO, or
Detroit or Houston. Columbus or Grand Rapids or New Orleans (do they have
an orchestra again?) are good "farm teams", and if somebody wins a
contest, that's where they ought to be sent, a susidized tour the like of
Essen and Dusseldorf and Talin, where the "greats" learned their trade.
Our culture would benefit too, if this meant extra concerts in the season.
Is Mr. Thielmann already too famous for the boonies? Probably. Would he
benfit from such a regimen?
Brendan
Nicolas Hodges
>Brendan R. Wehrung <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes
>>Perhaps this is a question you would prefer to put off until you are
>>"retired," but how far do you think Thielmann is from being ready for
>>prime time, such as a post at an orchestra like the Chicago Symphony?
>>Right now he sounds sort of uneven, feeling his way, but with potential
>>that you certainly see in the above recording. A conductor of a major
>>orchestra is expected to be superlative each and every time (although none
>>actually are, except in the memory of those who went to his concerts 50
>>years ago) in all styles of music. thieldmann is probably worth hiring as
>>a guest because he could indeed do something memorable. Will had pass on
>>to the next level?
>
>undoubtedly a gifted musician and conductor. His CSO debut (which was his
>American symphonic debut - substituting for Tennstedt) was a great success with
>audience and musicians alike. His second visit less so, and he then cancelled a
>subsequent appearance for health reasons. I've also seen his superb Frau ohne
>Schatten at the Met and Meistersinger at Lyric Opera. Like many young
>conductors, he is uneven, and we expect too much too soon - particularly
>because he has, perhaps prematurely, been pushed as a "superstar" at a very
>early age. He will certainly make poor choices from time to time, musically
>and otherwise -- but I believe there is no denying his substantial musical
>talent. He should be permitted to grow and mature in a post that is not one of
>the world's top five or ten posts, in my view, limiting those highly visible
>appearances to repertoire he is secure with and has done a good deal before
>that exposure.
Do you think that any of his recordings convey his promise? If so which
one(s)? (I've not heard him, except in Palestrina, which for me is not
any way to judge a conductor.)
--
Nic
I reserve the right to use irony and obscure forms of humour without warning
HenryFogel
>>undoubtedly a gifted musician and conductor. His CSO debut (which was his
>>American symphonic debut - substituting for Tennstedt) was a great success
>with
>>audience and musicians alike. His second visit less so, and he then
>cancelled a
>>subsequent appearance for health reasons. I've also seen his superb Frau
>ohne
>>Schatten at the Met and Meistersinger at Lyric Opera. Like many young
>>conductors, he is uneven, and we expect too much too soon - particularly
>>because he has, perhaps prematurely, been pushed as a "superstar" at a very
>>early age. He will certainly make poor choices from time to time, musically
>>and otherwise -- but I believe there is no denying his substantial musical
>>talent. He should be permitted to grow and mature in a post that is not one
>of
>>the world's top five or ten posts, in my view, limiting those highly visible
>>appearances to repertoire he is secure with and has done a good deal before
>>that exposure.
>
>Do you think that any of his recordings convey his promise? If so which
>one(s)? (I've not heard him, except in Palestrina, which for me is not
>any way to judge a conductor.)
>--
>Nic
>
Certainly his conducting on the Quastoff recital disc of arias is superb. In
addition, I think his disc of Wagner preludes (DG 452 485) is also superb. His
Beethoven 5 and 7 is more controversial, and there seem to be many who don't
like it, though I do. It doesn't have quite the spontaneous feel that his live
performances have had, but I think it is still a pair of exciting performances.
Henry Fogel
George Murnu
I've not heard him, except in Palestrina, which for me is not
> any way to judge a conductor.
Why not? I heard him conduct Palestrina at the Met on tour with the
ROH, I think was in 1997, and I thought he was superb; certainly much
better that the Alpensinfonie he did with the NYPO two-three seasons
ago.
Regards,
George
Nicolas Hodges
>[snip]
>>I've not heard him, except in Palestrina, which for me is not any way
>>to judge a conductor.
>
>Why not?
Simply because I don't know it very well. (I had heard bits of it on CD
before the performance, that's all.)
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:3DA064...@erols.com:
> [snip]
>> I've not heard him, except in Palestrina, which for me is not
>> any way to judge a conductor.
>
> Why not? I heard him conduct Palestrina at the Met on tour with the
> ROH, I think was in 1997, and I thought he was superb; certainly much
> better that the Alpensinfonie he did with the NYPO two-three seasons
> ago.
I think the Hamelin Index being applied again. ;--)