OT: video message from the leader of the Free World

[Roland van Gaalen]

VIDEO
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/angela-merkel-reagiert-auf-wahlsieg-von-donald-trump-a-1120489.html

[Markhax]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:19:26 AM UTC-5, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> VIDEO
> http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/angela-merkel-reagiert-auf-wahlsieg-von-donald-trump-a-1120489.html

"Demokratische Werte," "Respekt vor dem Recht und der Würde des Menschen unabhängig von Herkunft, Hautfarbe, Religion, Geschlecht, sexueller Orientierung oder politischer Einstellung,""Zusammenarbeit"--good luck with that, Frau Bundeskanzlerin. Now it is up to you to promote those values.

[Roland van Gaalen]

A journalist writing for Haaretz (the Israeli newspaper) tweets:

"Merkel only leader sticking up for her values in congratulations to Trump. Hope she survives her election next year."

[HT]

Op woensdag 9 november 2016 15:39:29 UTC+1 schreef Markhax:

Hmmm. Promoting values isn't the problem. She has failed to create the conditions.

Henk

[Roland van Gaalen]

But you agree with the values mentioned by Angela Merkel, I trust.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

[dk]

In real life, execution outweighs ideas.
Mediocre execution trumps the greatest
ideas, while good execution can make
even mediocre ideas succeed.

dk

[Roland van Gaalen]

And yet I applaud Merkel for her statement as such.

A writer for the Guardian newspaper wrote on twitter:
<<welll done angel merkel for brilliantly measured response to trump victory. shames may's lobotomised 'congrats'>>

[dk]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 9:34:46 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 6:17:59 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:49:33 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 4:33:16 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm. Promoting values isn't the problem.
> > > > She has failed to create the conditions.
> > >
> > > But you agree with the values mentioned by
> > > Angela Merkel, I trust.
> >
> > In real life, execution outweighs ideas.
> > Mediocre execution trumps the greatest
> > ideas, while good execution can make
> > even mediocre ideas succeed.
>
> And yet I applaud Merkel for her statement as such.

Nevertheless Merkel has disappointed enough of her
own constituency that her political future is now
in doubt.

dk

[HT]

> But you agree with the values mentioned by Angela Merkel, I trust.

Coming from Merkel those values are a means to an end. Next year she has to campaign against the AfD. Since you read Der Spiegel you know that before her "Wir schaffen das" Merkel was the Machiavellist,par excellence in German politics.

Henk

[Roland van Gaalen]

Maybe, but do you disagree with anything she said in her speech?

[HT]

No, but neither do I agree. One doesn't agree or disagree with incantations.

Henk

[Roland van Gaalen]

Why don't you answer my question?

Or do you think that "values of democracy, freedom, and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or political views" can be taken for granted, with or without Trump?

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 7:00:33 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:

> No, but neither do I agree. One doesn't agree or disagree with incantations.

I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of substance, not just formalities.

[HT]

> Why don't you answer my question?

<g> But I did.

> Or do you think that "values of democracy, freedom, and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or political views"

I fail to be impressed by this recitation of values. However, I would welcome a good essay on what the author means when he uses concepts like democracy, freedom, respect for the law, the dignity of man and what he means to do about it.

> ... can be taken for granted, with or without Trump?

What did Obama do for democracy, freedom, respect for the law and the dignity of man - let alone our EU leaders?

Henk

[HT]

> I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of substance, not just formalities.

<g> Who knows?

Henk

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:47:41 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of substance, not just formalities.
>
> <g> Who knows?
>

If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing explicit and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I don't.

That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.

[dk]

So much discord in such a small country! ;-)

dk

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 10:25:02 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 1:19:11 PM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:47:41 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > > I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of substance, not just formalities.
> > >
> > > <g> Who knows?
> > >
> >
> > If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing explicit and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I don't.
> >
> > That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.
>

> So much discord in such a small country! ;-)
>

Yes! I'm afraid that the Netherlands is hardly less divided than the USA. Sad.

[O]

In article <e3c2b481-ce86-43a7...@googlegroups.com>,

Not sad. Good.

It's a good thing to have different ideas. It's countries that don't
allow different thoughts which have the biggest tragedies. Yes, it's
frustrating when your ideas don't win the day, but it's important that
you're able to voice them. Conflict of thoughts should not be thought
of as a bad idea.

Of course, conflict of thoughts can also lead to other, less desirable
conflicts. People tend to personalize their politics. It's important
to note that our political representatives, no matter how much they
attack each other in public, are usually all friendly to each other
across the aisle and don't take it as seriously as you do.

The art of compromise gets eroded when each party tries to demonize one
another. Nothing could be more evident than in the US election, where
both parties had to spend all their time cutting down their opponent,
and had little time to address issues.

-Owen

[dk]

Isn't this an artifact of a winner takes all system?

dk

[dk]

I actually find it amusing, considering
there is so little to disagree about! ;-)

dk

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 11:02:22 PM UTC+1, O wrote:
> In article <e3c2b481-ce86-43a7...@googlegroups.com>,

> Roland van Gaalen <...> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 10:25:02 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 1:19:11 PM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:47:41 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > > > > I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of
> > > > > > substance, not just formalities.
> > > > >
> > > > > <g> Who knows?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's
> > > > understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing explicit
> > > > and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I
> > > > don't.
> > > >
> > > > That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.
> > >
> > > So much discord in such a small country! ;-)
> > >
> >
> > Yes! I'm afraid that the Netherlands is hardly less divided than the USA.
> > Sad.
>
> Not sad. Good.

[...]

I think the kind of divisions you have in the USA is not desirable.

But I bet you can write some clever & eloquent paragraphs on the benefits of political gridlock, explaining that in a democracy the people get to decide what's desirable.

Yes, I understand.

[dk]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:45:57 PM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 11:02:22 PM UTC+1, O wrote:
> > In article <e3c2b481-ce86-43a7...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Roland van Gaalen <...> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 10:25:02 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 1:19:11 PM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:47:41 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on matters of
> > > > > > > substance, not just formalities.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <g> Who knows?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's
> > > > > understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing explicit
> > > > > and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I
> > > > > don't.
> > > > >
> > > > > That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.
> > > >
> > > > So much discord in such a small country! ;-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes! I'm afraid that the Netherlands is hardly less divided than the USA.
> > > Sad.
> >
> > Not sad. Good.
> [...]

Misquote. I didn't write the above.

dk

[HT]

> If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing explicit and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I don't.
>
> That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.

Opposing camps? Perhaps. You are certainly more impressed by Merkel (positive) and Trump (negative) than I am. You are also emotionally more attached to free floating concepts like democracy, freedom, law and the dignity of man. If there is a conflict between us it must be the universal one between generations. <g>

Henk

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 12:16:31 AM UTC+1, HT wrote:

> Opposing camps? Perhaps. You are certainly more impressed by Merkel (positive) and Trump (negative)
> than I am. You are also emotionally more attached to free floating concepts like democracy, freedom,
> law and the dignity of man. If there is a conflict between us it must be the universal one between
> generations. <g>

Aha, I am "emotionally" attached to "free floating concepts".

Young man, given the views expressed by Trump, Merkel's references to general concepts without footnotes to jurisprudence or other relevant literature makes perfect sense.

If you don't understand what she was driving at, that's your problem.

[HT]

> Aha, I am "emotionally" attached to "free floating concepts".
>
> Young man, given the views expressed by Trump, Merkel's references to general concepts without footnotes to jurisprudence or other relevant literature makes perfect sense.
>
> If you don't understand what she was driving at, that's your problem.

<g> Haven't been called a young man for ages. It certainly lifts my spirit. Thanks.

Henk

[richard...@gmail.com]

I'm commenting on the phrase 'opposing camps'. Most chambers of government are arranged in semicircles now, as is the US Congress and the European parliament. The UK houses of parliament are not: there are indeed two opposing camps, arrayed on benches opposite each other- government benches and opposition benches. The Opposing Camps are made explicit. There used to be more than just words involved in the act of opposing, so the benches in the rebuilt houses of Parliament (early Victorian) are more than two swords length apart.
Fortunately guns were never worn to Parliament.

I expect that much of the drama in the recent US election was wholly artificial. Trump made outrageous statements because it got free media coverage, and he spent about 20% or so as much on the campaign as Mrs Clinton, whose total spend seems to have been about $500m. (Actual numbers will be available next year some time.)

[O]

In article <b017f313-2ae7-48db...@googlegroups.com>, dk

Past political wisdom was that negative campaigning is successful at
bringing the other guy down, but does nothing to bring you up, and
excessive negative campaigning imparts some of that negativity onto the
complainer.

But it's been a continual shift to more and more negativity and
polarization. Look at Congress's lousy approval ratings, yet
re-election seems almost automatic! I suppose since incumbents are
winning with a strong negative approach, there's no reason not to stay
the course. Obviously, hate is what their voters like.

-Owen

-Owen

[O]

In article <c447b7a9-232b-48d9...@googlegroups.com>,

I think the kind of divisions we have in the USA are a result of our
melting pot assimilation of almost all the cultures in the world. I
don't see how we could be otherwise and still have peoples of every
nationality flocking to our country, forming bonds and relationships
here, and incorporating their cultures into the teeming other cultures
that already exist here.

>
> But I bet you can write some clever & eloquent paragraphs on the benefits of
> political gridlock, explaining that in a democracy the people get to decide what's desirable.

I can't do nearly as well as Robert Caro did on the history of the
Senate, along with why gridlock was designed into it, in his tremendous
LBJ biography "Master of the Senate." The book itself is long, but you
only have to read the first 100 pages to understand why gridlock is
built in, what purpose it was supposed to have, and how it all came
about.

-Owen

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Concerning the fall of the Ming dynasty in 1644:

- The factionalism of the late Ming led to divided counsels and imperial inaction just when the dynasty needed vigorous leadership.

John Fairbank

[gggg...@gmail.com]

- ...The Ming collapse was perhaps due less to misgovernment than to nongovernment, less to...immorality than to the regime's failure to keep up with its problems...The administration suffered less from tyranny than from paralysis.

https://www.google.com/#q=%22yet+the+ming+collapse+was+perhaps+due+less+to+misgovernment%22

[O]

In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,

<gggg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >
> > > I can't do nearly as well as Robert Caro did on the history of the
> > > Senate, along with why gridlock was designed into it, in his tremendous
> > > LBJ biography "Master of the Senate." The book itself is long, but you
> > > only have to read the first 100 pages to understand why gridlock is
> > > built in, what purpose it was supposed to have, and how it all came
> > > about.
> > >
> > > -Owen
> >
> > Concerning the fall of the Ming dynasty in 1644:
> >
> > - The factionalism of the late Ming led to divided counsels and imperial
> > inaction just when the dynasty needed vigorous leadership.
> >
> > John Fairbank
>
> - ...The Ming collapse was perhaps due less to misgovernment than to
> nongovernment, less to...immorality than to the regime's failure to keep up
> with its problems...The administration suffered less from tyranny than from paralysis.
>
> https://www.google.com/#q=%22yet+the+ming+collapse+was+perhaps+due+less+to+misgovernment%22

You can live with Ming. I'll stick to our founding fathers, who
realized it's important not to have a law for everything.

-Owen

[gggg...@gmail.com]

> But I bet you can write some clever & eloquent paragraphs on the benefits of political gridlock, explaining that in a democracy the people get to decide what's desirable...

- Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.

Edward Albee: 1928-2016

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 3:04:58 PM UTC-10, O wrote:
> In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,

Taking gridlock for granted and allowing it to become a way of political life can bring about too-little-too-late solutions for long standing problems that have snowballed over time to become too overwhelming to cope with and even too complex to comprehend.

Do we all need to be turned into slices of swiss cheese--full of bullet holes--before our leaders do anything but argue about gun control?

[dk]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 8:54:09 PM UTC-8, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 3:04:58 PM UTC-10, O wrote:
> > In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,
> > <> wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't do nearly as well as Robert Caro did on the history of the
> > > > > Senate, along with why gridlock was designed into it, in his tremendous
> > > > > LBJ biography "Master of the Senate." The book itself is long, but you
> > > > > only have to read the first 100 pages to understand why gridlock is
> > > > > built in, what purpose it was supposed to have, and how it all came
> > > > > about.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Owen
> > > >
> > > > Concerning the fall of the Ming dynasty in 1644:
> > > >
> > > > - The factionalism of the late Ming led to divided counsels and imperial
> > > > inaction just when the dynasty needed vigorous leadership.
> > > >
> > > > John Fairbank
> > >
> > > - ...The Ming collapse was perhaps due less to misgovernment than to
> > > nongovernment, less to...immorality than to the regime's failure to keep up
> > > with its problems...The administration suffered less from tyranny than from paralysis.
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/#q=%22yet+the+ming+collapse+was+perhaps+due+less+to+misgovernment%22
> >
> >
> > You can live with Ming. I'll stick to our founding fathers, who
> > realized it's important not to have a law for everything.
>

> Taking gridlock for granted and allowing it to become a way of
> political life can bring about too-little-too-late solutions
> for long standing problems that have snowballed over time to
> become too overwhelming to cope with and even too complex to
> comprehend.

And what else is new? Seems like the ancient Greeks and Romans
had this problem too... ;-)

> Do we all need to be turned into slices of swiss cheese--full
> of bullet holes--before our leaders do anything but argue about
> gun control?

Jarlsberg -- the holes grow organically! ;-)

dk

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 3:04:58 PM UTC-10, O wrote:
> In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,

I think that the citizens of Ming China would have stuck to their laws rather than our mass shootings.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

> Taking gridlock for granted and allowing it to become a way of political life can bring about too-little-too-late solutions for long standing problems that have snowballed over time to become too overwhelming to cope with and even too complex to comprehend...

Let me amend the above:

- Taking gridlock for granted and allowing it to become a way of political life can bring about too-little-too-late solutions for long standing problems that have [in the meantime] snowballed...to become too overwhelming [in magnitude] to cope with and even too complex to comprehend...


According to this article:

- Plato warned democracy’s inability to respond quickly would destroy it.

http://watchdog.org/228894/republic-quest-for-survival/

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Is THIS your answer to problems that lawmakers are creating by doing nothing but debate over what to do?:

http://milkthecow.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/let-them-eat-cheese-ad-web.jpg

[dk]

> Is THIS your answer to problems that lawmakers are
> creating by doing nothing but debate over what to do?:
>
> http://milkthecow.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/let-them-eat-cheese-ad-web.jpg

No, I prefer goat cheeses! ;-)

dk

[O]

In article <a66f4d8e-3eda-4bac...@googlegroups.com>,
<gggg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 3:04:58 PM UTC-10, O wrote:
> > In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,

> Taking gridlock for granted and allowing it to become a way of political life

> can bring about a too-little-too-late solution to long standing problems.

Who's taking it for granted? It's been a hot political topic. Most
people don't realize it was engineered into our political system.

-Owen

[O]

In article <6542afd4-90f9-445c...@googlegroups.com>,
<gggg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 3:04:58 PM UTC-10, O wrote:
> > In article <ace19954-b82d-49e9...@googlegroups.com>,

> How about a law to put a stop to mass shootings--something which the citizens of Ming China never had to worry about?

Do you think they're currently legal? Do you think that piling on laws
will stop them?

-Owen

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 5:35:19 AM UTC-10, O wrote:
> In article <a66f4d8e-3eda-4bac...@googlegroups.com>,

Anyone tolerating political gridlock AT THIS POINT IN TIME must only believe that IT'S NEVER TOO LATE.

[O]

In article <08ca3ccf-fe05-43d5...@googlegroups.com>,

Yes, let's enact countless more laws against drugs, guns, and sex.
Those always work.

-Owen

[John Thomas]

On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:02:22 PM UTC-8, O wrote:

\ across the aisle and don't take it as seriously as you do.

>
> The art of compromise gets eroded when each party tries to demonize one
> another. Nothing could be more evident than in the US election, where
> both parties had to spend all their time cutting down their opponent,
> and had little time to address issues.
>

> -Owen

Except for the national press neither the media nor the general public cared much about policy issues. During the "debates" none of the moderators asked a question about global warming. Conflict generates viewers and clicks.

[dk]

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:36:35 PM UTC-8, John Thomas wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 2:02:22 PM UTC-8, O wrote:
> \ across the aisle and don't take it as seriously as you do.
> >
> > The art of compromise gets eroded when each party tries to demonize one
> > another. Nothing could be more evident than in the US election, where
> > both parties had to spend all their time cutting down their opponent,
> > and had little time to address issues.
>

> Except for the national press neither the media nor the general
> public cared much about policy issues. During the "debates"
> none of the moderators asked a question about global warming.

Global warming is not an issue. It is reality, therefore no one
has any interest in discussing. The only difference that matters
is whether one is inside or outside the oven! ;-)

> Conflict generates viewers and clicks.

Well said.

dk

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 6:21:24 AM UTC-10, O wrote:
> In article <08ca3ccf-fe05-43d5...@googlegroups.com>,

According to the following on the founder of the Ming dynasty (1368-1644):

- Since the states of ancient times founding rulers had established the laws, thereby bringing peace and security to the people and extending benevolence and authority throughout the land. The Ming founder recalled the distress and disorder he had experienced in his early career before noting the role law codes had played in bringing order to the world. Order was to be achieved by enacting codes and teaching people to obey them.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TCIjZ7l6TX8C&pg=PA66&dq=%22Since+the+states+of+ancient+times+founding+rulers+had+established+the+laws,+thereby+bringing+peace+and+security+to+the+people+and+extending+benevolence+and+authority+throughout+the+land.+The+Ming+founder+recalled+the+distress+and+disorder+he+had+experienced+in+his+early+career+before+noting+the+role+law+codes+had+played+in+bringing+order+to+the+world.++Order+was+to+be+achieved+by+enacting+codes+and+teaching+people+to+obey+them.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiei9vfzKTQAhUURGMKHWJEBM8Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22Since%20the%20states%20of%20ancient%20times%20founding%20rulers%20had%20established%20the%20laws%2C%20thereby%20bringing%20peace%20and%20security%20to%20the%20people%20and%20extending%20benevolence%20and%20authority%20throughout%20the%20land.%20The%20Ming%20founder%20recalled%20the%20distress%20and%20disorder%20he%20had%20experienced%20in%20his%20early%20career%20before%20noting%20the%20role%20law%20codes%20had%20played%20in%20bringing%20order%20to%20the%20world.%20%20Order%20was%20to%20be%20achieved%20by%20enacting%20codes%20and%20teaching%20people%20to%20obey%20them.%22&f=false

[O]

In article <3468b579-89fb-412a...@googlegroups.com>, dk

Agree with both of you. The sport of politics has become a strictly
blood sport, with Facebook memes screeching about how so-and-so
"shredded" somebody else. It appears the public delights in stomping
on their opponents, and has little stomach for real "issues."

-Owen

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Hasn't politics in America become just another reality show--existing to be entertaining to get ratings?

[dk]

> Hasn't politics in America become just another reality
> show--existing to be entertaining to get ratings?

Your guess is as good as anyone else's.

dk

[JohnGavin]

This is true as long as you stay with corporate-run mainstream media - print or television, but there is a deeper take on what is going on behind the scenes on alternative on-line programming.

If the next administration begins to talk about internet regulation or censorship, we all need to worry.

[dk]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 12:36:01 PM UTC-8, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> If the next administration begins to talk about
> internet regulation or censorship, we all need
> to worry.

The next "administration" has been talking about
shutting down the internet for quite some time
now. This is mainly getting even with Al Gore,
isn't it? ;-)

The internet was "invented" by the Democrats,
therefore it must go away.

dk

[gggg...@gmail.com]

From this point on, anything requiring political will is DOOMED:

- If mankind had wished for what is right, they might have had it long ago.

William Hazlitt

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 1:02:29 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 1:00:19 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 6:10:16 AM UTC-10, O wrote:
> > > In article <c447b7a9-232b-48d9...@googlegroups.com>,

> > > Roland van Gaalen <rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 11:02:22 PM UTC+1, O wrote:
> > > > > In article <e3c2b481-ce86-43a7...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > Roland van Gaalen <...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 10:25:02 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 1:19:11 PM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen

> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 8:47:41 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I am beginning to suspect that we may strongly disagree on
> > > > > > > > > > matters of
> > > > > > > > > > substance, not just formalities.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <g> Who knows?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we are in the familiar opposing camps, as I suspect we are, it's
> > > > > > > > understandable that you insist on a long dissertation containing
> > > > > > > > explicit
> > > > > > > > and detailed definitions of human rights etc and related values, and I
> > > > > > > > don't.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That would explain why I like Merkel's statement and you don't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So much discord in such a small country! ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes! I'm afraid that the Netherlands is hardly less divided than the
> > > > > > USA.
> > > > > > Sad.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sad. Good.
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > I think the kind of divisions you have in the USA is not desirable.
> > >

> > > I think the kind of divisions we have in the USA are a result of our
> > > melting pot assimilation of almost all the cultures in the world. I
> > > don't see how we could be otherwise and still have peoples of every
> > > nationality flocking to our country, forming bonds and relationships
> > > here, and incorporating their cultures into the teeming other cultures
> > > that already exist here.

> > > >
> > > > But I bet you can write some clever & eloquent paragraphs on the benefits of
> > > > political gridlock, explaining that in a democracy the people get to decide what's desirable.
> > >

> > > I can't do nearly as well as Robert Caro did on the history of the
> > > Senate, along with why gridlock was designed into it, in his tremendous
> > > LBJ biography "Master of the Senate." The book itself is long, but you
> > > only have to read the first 100 pages to understand why gridlock is
> > > built in, what purpose it was supposed to have, and how it all came
> > > about.
> > >
> > > -Owen
> >
> > Concerning the fall of the Ming dynasty in 1644:
> >
> > - The factionalism of the late Ming led to divided counsels and imperial inaction just when the dynasty needed vigorous leadership.
> >
> > John Fairbank
>
> - ...The Ming collapse was perhaps due less to misgovernment than to nongovernment, less to...immorality than to the regime's failure to keep up with its problems...The administration suffered less from tyranny than from paralysis.
>
> https://www.google.com/#q=%22yet+the+ming+collapse+was+perhaps+due+less+to+misgovernment%22

- We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls. It is even too late to ask where we are going.

Stravinsky

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 6:54:09 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

Have we been turned into "sitting ducks"?:

http://www.newser.com/story/244275/congressman-at-shooting-we-were-sitting-ducks.html

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 6:54:09 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

According to this recent article:

- In today’s world, it is reasonably predictable that a crazy gunman will open fire in a mass open-air concert. It is foreseeable that someone is going to bring a gun and shoot at a crowd.

http://people.com/crime/las-vegas-shooting-victims-sue-mgm-mandalay-bay-live-nation/

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 6:54:09 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

Are shooting rampages becoming the new normal?:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bakersfield-shooting-20180913-story.html

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Aren't mass shootings spreading like wildfires?