Garrido's Monteverdi Vespers
Steve Grathwohl
of Monteverdi's Vespers has been released, at least in the UK. Has anyone
who has heard it willing to give a report?
I also noticed in the mdt November list that Virgin is dumping (at 4-for-1
prices!) Herreweghe's Bach Lutheran masses and many cantatas that have
been effectively unavailable for some time. Other 4-for-1 releases include
van Asperen and Leonhardt's Bach complete harpsichord concertos and
Parrott's Bach Orchestral Suites and Brandenburgs, and van Asperen's Bach
WTC (complete). All for £9.79 a set! Now wouldn't it be grand if Virgin
were to give us Parrott's B Minor mass and Monteverdi Vespers in a box
like that!
Steve
--
Steve Grathwohl
Duke Mathematical Journal * International Mathematics Research Notices
gr...@math.duke.edu * +001 919-687-3634 * fax: +001 919-688-5595
Matthew Westphal
gr...@math.duke.edu (Steve Grathwohl) wrote:
>
> I noticed in the November releases at mdt.co.uk that Garrido's
recording
> of Monteverdi's Vespers has been released, at least in the UK. Has
anyone
> who has heard it willing to give a report?
>
OK, I'll have a go...
For a start, K617 doesn't see fit to list the soloists anywhere but
inside the booklet, so I'll list them here:
Soprano: Emanuela Galli, Adriana Fernandez
[male] Alto: Martin Oro, Fabian Schofrin
Tenor: Mario Cecchetti, Rodrigo del Pozo,
Pablo Pollitzer, Francesc Garrigosa
Baritone: Furio Zanasi
Bass: Daniele Carnovich, Ivan Garcia
Worse, K617 doesn't see fit to tell us ANYWHERE which soloists are
singing what. Rodrigo del Pozo is the only one whose voice I can
recognize, so I can't tell a whole lot about each individual singer.
None of them are less than good, though; in fact, "Duo Seraphim"
and "Audi coelum" are very good and "Pulchra es" and "Nigra sum" are
marvelous.
I had hoped that Garrido would do the Vespers mostly one-singer-per-
part. No such luck -- he uses not one choir, but two (one with 20
singers, one with eleven). He uses them well, though: in the Psalms,
he often has them sing alternate verses in decani/cantoris style. Like
all other conductors who use a full choir for the Psalms, he has to
pick which spots go to soloists and which to the choir. I myself find
that practice both musically unsatisfying and musicologically
improbable; given that Garrido obviously disagrees, I do find his
choices unusually thoughtful and convincing. The choirs themselves
have a slightly throatier sound than we usually hear from northern
European choirs; at first I took that for sloppy blend, but as I heard
more it seemed to me that they were quite musical and much less sloppy
than the choir in (for example) Savall's recording.
Garrido does the chiavette pieces ("Lauda Jerusalem" and the
Magnificat) at notated (high) pitch rather than transposing them down a
fourth as should normally be done with music notated with the chiavette
clefs. (Those pieces from the Monteverdi Vespers seem to be the only
music notated with chiavette that performers *don't* transpose down.)
At least in the Magnificat, the basses don't sound *too* strained on
their top Fs; the heroic cornet players don't sound strained at all.
I find Garrido's pacing quite convincing; his instrumentalists,
Ensemble Elyma and Les Sacqueboutiers de Toulouse, are wonderful. I
think theirs is the most exciting "Sonata sopra Sancta Maria" I've ever
heard, with really beautiful sound and many of the sort of quick,
subtle shifts in tempo with which groups like Concerto Italiano and Il
Giardino Armonico have revitalized Vivaldi. As usual with Garrido, the
continuo group is large (ten musicians) and plays wonderfully.
Garrido does put the music into an order of service for Vespers (minus
a few intoned prayers); this means he has re-arranged the order of
pieces and added a bit of music. (This bothers some people; I quite
like it.) Here's the order of performance (* means Monteverdi):
*Deus in adiutorium/DOMINE AD ADIUVANDUM
Dum esset rex (chant antiphon)
*DIXIT DOMINUS
Dum esset rex (a sweet little setting of the antiphon
text for two sopranos by Agostini; oddly,
Garrido has his choral sopranos sing it.)
Laeva eius (chant antiphon)
*LAUDATE PUERI
*Pulchra es
Nigra sum (chant antiphon)
*LAETATUS SUM
*Nigra sum
Iam hiems transiit (chant antiphon)
*NISI DOMINUS
*Audi coelum
Speciosa facta es (chant antiphon)
*LAUDA JERUSALEM
Speciosa facta es (another sweet little antiphon setting
by Agostini, this time for two tenors;
Garrido has his choral tenors sing it.)
*Duo Seraphim
*Sonata sopra Sancta Maria
*AVE MARIS STELLA
Sancta Maria, succure miseris (chant antiphon)
*MAGNIFICAT (first version with voices and instruments)
*Sancta Maria, succure miseris (antiphon setting
for two sopranos by Monteverdi,
from, I think, SELVA MORALE E SPIRITUALE.)
Sinfonia decimasesta a 4 (Kapsberger)
A bonus: Garrido also includes the second Magnificat setting (for six
voices and continuo with no obbligato instruments) -- I've definitely
never heard that done better.
I've done some grousing about some chices Garrido made of which I
(IMHO) don't approve, but (as I hope the rest of my comments make
clear) I really like this recording a lot. I find it very musical and
it has all the soulful quality that the (overrated, IMHO) Savall has
without the latter's flaws.
My favorite Vespers, Parrott, is on EMI/Virgin, so one never knows from
week to week whether it's in print; Junghaenel/Cantus Coelln (DHM) is
out-of-print; the other one-singer-per-part recording, Pickett, has
just been re-released by Decca but I've always found it somewhat
earthbound.
Of the choral versions, I'd put this almost at the top, ahead of Savall
and definitely ahead of Christophers, Pearlman and either Gardiner.
What about Christie? Well, it's a close call -- Garrido does many
things even better than Christie (I mean that as high praise),
especially with continuo. But Garrido doesn't have Paul Agnew and
Joseph Cornwell (as Christie does) -- considering how much the tenor
soloists have to do, that makes a real difference.
Of course, one doesn't HAVE to choose between them...
Matthew Westphal
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Simon Roberts
[great stuff snipped]
: Of the choral versions, I'd put this almost at the top, ahead of Savall
: and definitely ahead of Christophers, Pearlman and either Gardiner.
: What about Christie? Well, it's a close call -- Garrido does many
: things even better than Christie (I mean that as high praise),
: especially with continuo. But Garrido doesn't have Paul Agnew and
: Joseph Cornwell (as Christie does) -- considering how much the tenor
: soloists have to do, that makes a real difference.
: Of course, one doesn't HAVE to choose between them...
Indeed not; seems I'll have to get Garrido too. What do you think of
Jacobs/HM?
Simon (who can't stand Parrott's...).
Johan van Veen
Matthew Westphal wrote:
> In article <grath-24119...@dup112.provost.duke.edu>,
> gr...@math.duke.edu (Steve Grathwohl) wrote:
>
> >
> > I noticed in the November releases at mdt.co.uk that Garrido's
> recording
> > of Monteverdi's Vespers has been released, at least in the UK. Has
> anyone
> > who has heard it willing to give a report?
> >
>
> OK, I'll have a go...
>
> For a start, K617 doesn't see fit to list the soloists anywhere but
> inside the booklet, so I'll list them here:
>
> Soprano: Emanuela Galli, Adriana Fernandez
> [male] Alto: Martin Oro, Fabian Schofrin
> Tenor: Mario Cecchetti, Rodrigo del Pozo,
> Pablo Pollitzer, Francesc Garrigosa
> Baritone: Furio Zanasi
> Bass: Daniele Carnovich, Ivan Garcia
>
> Worse, K617 doesn't see fit to tell us ANYWHERE which soloists are
> singing what. Rodrigo del Pozo is the only one whose voice I can
> recognize, so I can't tell a whole lot about each individual singer.
> None of them are less than good, though; in fact, "Duo Seraphim"
> and "Audi coelum" are very good and "Pulchra es" and "Nigra sum" are
> marvelous.
This is always the problem with K617. It is a somewhat strange label. They
have produced great recordings, in particular with Latin American baroque
music. But the presentation is always sloppy. You have to look carefully to
find the information you want, they *never* give info on who is involved in
which piece etc. And some parts of the booklet are only in French, and not
translated in English.
<review snipped>
Great review, Matthew.
I can't wait to hear it. Could this be *the* recording I am looking for? So
far I haven't come across any recording which is fulfilling all my wishes.
I have heard other recordings with Garrido, most of which are very good.
--
Johan van Veen
Utrecht (Netherlands)
jvv...@casema.net
ubi deus ibi pax
Matthew Westphal
Johan van Veen <jvv...@casema.net> wrote:
>
> Great review, Matthew.
>
Thanks! At some point I'll probably have to trim it down to 250 words
or so for Amazon. Wish me luck...
>
> I can't wait to hear it. Could this be *the* recording I am looking
for? So
> far I haven't come across any recording which is fulfilling all my
wishes.
>
What are those wishes, exactly?
Matthew Westphal
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
> Matthew Westphal (matthew...@my-deja.com) wrote:
>
> [great stuff snipped]
>
> : Of the choral versions, I'd put this almost at the top, ahead of
Savall
> : and definitely ahead of Christophers, Pearlman and either Gardiner.
> : What about Christie? Well, it's a close call -- Garrido does many
> : things even better than Christie (I mean that as high praise),
> : especially with continuo. But Garrido doesn't have Paul Agnew and
> : Joseph Cornwell (as Christie does) -- considering how much the tenor
> : soloists have to do, that makes a real difference.
>
> : Of course, one doesn't HAVE to choose between them...
>
> Indeed not; seems I'll have to get Garrido too. What do you think of
> Jacobs/HM?
>
Hmmm (pun intended), I'd forgotten about Jacobs - I had to go back and
look at the 1610 Vespers survey I did for Amazon.com last January. (If
anyone's interested, you can find that at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/feature/11151/103-5119855-1155065)
Jacobs' performance is BIG. It uses more performers (especially in the
choir) than I myself prefer; it's heavily orchestrated as well, with
instruments not only doubling the vocal lines, but adding lots of
embellishment. Jacobs even added an entire obbligato cornett part
to "Laetatus sum" -- he would doubtless claim that he was trying to re-
create the way 17th-century instrumentalists would improvise a part,
but this part is complete enough, elaborate and melodic enough that I
doubt even the great Jean Tubery (my favorite cornettist, who plays the
part) could have improvised it himself.
All of this said, the performance on the whole is quite good. Big and
exciting, it's just the sort of reading I'd expect Simon (the
Australian adrenaline junkie disguised as an Anglo-American music maven)
to like. I had feared that the soloists (excepting Kiehr and Borden)
would overwhelm the music, as sometimes happens with Jacobs, but they
don't. They're excellent. I think Jacobs' recording is the best large-
scale Vespers I've heard -- it's everything that Gardiner II would like
to be.
>
> Simon (who can't stand Parrott's...)
>
I know -- Simon has said before that he finds it "about as Italian as
afternoon tea at the vicarage." I think Simon and I may have different
notions of what constitutes "Italian-ness". How about others on the
NG? Anyone who has both Parrott's 1610 Vespers and Alessandrini's
Monteverdi "Musica Sacra", which includes a version of the 1610 "Dixit
Dominus" without the obbligato instruments -- want to compare
the "Dixit" from each and give us your impressions? I hear subtle
differences, certainly, but nothing that seems more "Italian" (whatever
that means) in one than in the other...
Matthew Westphal (who sometimes wonders if Simon has a subconscious
anti-English bias...)
William A. Dirks
Roberts) wrote:
>Matthew Westphal (matthew...@my-deja.com) wrote:
>
>[great stuff snipped]
>
>: Of the choral versions, I'd put this almost at the top, ahead of Savall
>: and definitely ahead of Christophers, Pearlman and either Gardiner.
>: What about Christie? Well, it's a close call -- Garrido does many
>: things even better than Christie (I mean that as high praise),
>: especially with continuo. But Garrido doesn't have Paul Agnew and
>: Joseph Cornwell (as Christie does) -- considering how much the tenor
>: soloists have to do, that makes a real difference.
>
>: Of course, one doesn't HAVE to choose between them...
>
>Indeed not; seems I'll have to get Garrido too. What do you think of
>Jacobs/HM?
Or Herreweghe's?
--Bill Dirks
Simon Roberts
: All of this said, the performance on the whole is quite good. Big and
: exciting, it's just the sort of reading I'd expect Simon (the
: Australian adrenaline junkie disguised as an Anglo-American music maven)
: to like.
Correct; Simon likes it enormously (among other things, my favorite Duo
Seraphim, slow, beautifully shaped and well sung).
I had feared that the soloists (excepting Kiehr and Borden)
: would overwhelm the music, as sometimes happens with Jacobs, but they
: don't. They're excellent. I think Jacobs' recording is the best large-
: scale Vespers I've heard -- it's everything that Gardiner II would like
: to be.
Oh, I don't know; Gardiner seems to like soloists with nasty little
voices (as opposed to nice little voices, or nice big voices, or...).
: I know -- Simon has said before that he finds it "about as Italian as
: afternoon tea at the vicarage." I think Simon and I may have different
: notions of what constitutes "Italian-ness". How about others on the
: NG? Anyone who has both Parrott's 1610 Vespers and Alessandrini's
: Monteverdi "Musica Sacra", which includes a version of the 1610 "Dixit
: Dominus" without the obbligato instruments -- want to compare
: the "Dixit" from each and give us your impressions? I hear subtle
: differences, certainly, but nothing that seems more "Italian" (whatever
: that means) in one than in the other...
: Matthew Westphal (who sometimes wonders if Simon has a subconscious
: anti-English bias...)
It may have nothing to do with Englishness; what I don't like about it is
its politeness, nay, primness and the nasty little voices of most of the
soloists. Very Protestant, not at all Catholic ("whatever that mean" you
might well say; maybe when I'm done with Thanksgiving cooking I'll try to
explain...).
Simon
Johan van Veen
Matthew Westphal wrote:
> In article <383D02E6...@casema.net>,
> Johan van Veen <jvv...@casema.net> wrote:
>
>
> > I can't wait to hear it. Could this be *the* recording I am looking
> for? So
> > far I haven't come across any recording which is fulfilling all my
> wishes.
> >
>
> What are those wishes, exactly?
That is not so easy to say. I have heard many recordings, and there is
almost always something to enjoy. The problem is that some of the things I
want to hear are there, but never all of them appear in the same
recording. It is like recordings of oratorios and operas: sometimes you
would like to put singers from two recordings together with the orchestra
of the third. But unfortunately that is impossible.
First of all I would like an all-male cast - with either trebles or male
sopranos. There are some, but they are just not good enough (Schneidt,
Hennig, Flämig).
Then the plainchant. I can't get used to a performance without plainchant.
But often it is performed by a specialised group of singers, which I am
sure is unhistorical. I am also unsatisfied by the way the plainchant is
sung - without dynamics, without rhythm, without ornaments. I have always
had the feeling that this is not the way plainchant was sung in
Monteverdi's time. I once asked in another newsgroup if my feeling was
right, and someone who apparently knows a lot about plainchant confirmed
that.
Sometimes there is a lack of ornamentation in the concerti. For example, I
liked John Elwes in Savall's recording, but I was disappointed that he
didn't sing any ornamentation in 'Nigra sum'. Nigel Rogers did so quite
beautifully in Harnoncourt's first recording. Most recordings are too
sparing with ornamentation.
And I would like to have singers who can sing the trilli in Duo Seraphim
without giving the impression that they either stutter or bark. (René
Jacobs has demonstrated how it should be done in a recording with the
Concerto Vocale.) Generally I am not impressed by the qualities of many of
today's singers on the HIP stage.
I also would like a very strong continuo group, like Tragicomedia, that
gives a strong rhythmical impetus.
(Just a thought: would it be preferable to use renaissance violins in
stead of baroque violins? Is it right to use 18th century violins in
Monteverdi?)
I can't be more specific right now. I am sure that when I listen to the
recordings I have I could be more specific. But the strange thing is: it
is one of my favourite pieces, and nevertheless I very seldom listen to
any of those recordings. I think that is because most of them are well
done, but lack passion. I don't feel touched. It is Italian music, and by
a composer whose madrigals are very passionate. I hope that the recording
by Garrido will at least be just that. The other wishes - well, I have to
wait for the next one, I'm afraid.
Matthew Westphal
>
> Matthew Westphal wrote:
>
> >
> > Johan van Veen <jvv...@casema.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I can't wait to hear it. Could this be *the* recording I am
looking
> > for? So
> > > far I haven't come across any recording which is fulfilling all my
> > wishes.
> > >
> >
> > What are those wishes, exactly?
>
>
> That is not so easy to say. I have heard many recordings, and there is
> almost always something to enjoy. The problem is that some of the
things I
> want to hear are there, but never all of them appear in the same
> recording. It is like recordings of oratorios and operas: sometimes
you
> would like to put singers from two recordings together with the
orchestra
> of the third. But unfortunately that is impossible.
>
I certainly know that feeling! (I experience it particularly with
Handel's MESSIAH.)
>
> First of all I would like an all-male cast - with either trebles or
male
> sopranos. There are some, but they are just not good enough (Schneidt,
> Hennig, Flämig).
>
I understand that sentiment (though I don't share it myself).
Actually, I thought Esswood and Smith did well for Schneidt. There
probably are male sopranos now who could sing the Vespers very well
(especially if the chiavette pieces are transposed down properly). Any
ideas, anyone? (I don't think the main suspects - Daniels, Scholl,
Mera, Taylor - have good enough high ranges for this job.)
>
> Then the plainchant. I can't get used to a performance without
plainchant.
> But often it is performed by a specialised group of singers, which I
am
> sure is unhistorical.
>
Why is that? Does it really seem likely to you that the flashy (and
probably expensive) musicians a 17th-century prince would retain in his
chapel to do Monteverdi's concerted music would also do the
plainchant? I remember reading that at large institutions like San
Marco, there was a separate group of singers (usually ordained priests
or deacons) who did the plainchant at services where concerted music
was performed.
>
> I am also unsatisfied by the way the plainchant is
> sung - without dynamics, without rhythm, without ornaments. I have
always
> had the feeling that this is not the way plainchant was sung in
> Monteverdi's time. I once asked in another newsgroup if my feeling was
> right, and someone who apparently knows a lot about plainchant
> confirmed that.
>
I believe 17th-century Italian chant books were notated using signs
that indicated *relative* rhythm. (The units were 1/2 beat, 1 beat,
and 1-1/2 beats.) Parrott used such a book for his recording. I also
hear some dynamics (though not particularly theatrical dynamics) in the
performance of the chant on Parrott's recording - I think the chant is
a particular strength of his set.
Ornaments are another matter. I know that 17th-century *French* chant
was ornamented (and is generally performed that way today); I gather
that it's not so clear whether plainchant was ornamented in northern
Italy at the time.
>
> Sometimes there is a lack of ornamentation in the concerti. For
example, I
> liked John Elwes in Savall's recording, but I was disappointed that he
> didn't sing any ornamentation in 'Nigra sum'.
>
YES! That's one reason I don't like the Savall as much as others do.
I remember going through that recording with the proverbial fine tooth
comb and finding exactly one (very subtle) added ornament. Actually,
If I recall correctly, it was in 'Nigra sum'! (A *brief*,
inconspicuous added trillo.)
By the way, Elwes didn't sing on Savall's recording -- Savall's tenor
soloists were Guy de Mey, Gerd Tuerk and Gian Paolo Fagotto (who
sang 'Nigra sum').
>
> And I would like to have singers who can sing the trilli in 'Duo
Seraphim'
> without giving the impression that they either stutter or bark.
>
Well said! (Parrott's Vespers is my favorite, but the 'Duo Seraphim'
is it weakest point - Nigel Rogers' trilli are a bit sloppy and Andrew
King's are just awful.)
>
> I also would like a very strong continuo group, like Tragicomedia,
that
> gives a strong rhythmical impetus.
>
Garrido's continuo group is certainly strong, but I'm not sure you
could say they give a *strong* rhythmic impetus. That description
implies (to me) an aggressive quality that I don't think their playing
has.
>
> (Just a thought: would it be preferable to use renaissance violins in
> stead of baroque violins? Is it right to use 18th century violins in
> Monteverdi?)
>
Good point - and one Peter Holman (of the Parley of Instruments) made
years ago (1982?) in his notes to that wonderful "Sacred vocal music of
Claudio Monteverdi" recording on Hyperion with the Divine Miss Em (ma
Kirkby), Ian Partridge and David Thomas. I'd have expected Holman's
observation (and that recording) to have had more influence.
I'm not sure just who does and who doesn't use Renaissance as opposed
to Baroque violins in Monteverdi these days. I also wonder to what
extent it's the bow rather than the violin that makes the difference
in this case. Any string players know?
>
> It is Italian music, and by
> a composer whose madrigals are very passionate. I hope that the
recording
> by Garrido will at least be just that. The other wishes - well, I
have to
> wait for the next one, I'm afraid.
>
For what it's worth, I gather that Alessandrini will record the Vespers
eventually. But when?
Andrys D Basten
>And I would like to have singers who can sing the trilli in Duo Seraphim
>Jacobs has demonstrated how it should be done in a recording with the
>Concerto Vocale.)
Well, different tastes and all that, as usual. I have this
recording and love the Duo Seraphim from it except for what I
hear as the bleating by Jacobs at that point. Have always
disliked that part of the track...
- A
--
Andrys Basten, CNE http://www.andrys.com/ PC Network Support
http://www.andrys.com/books.html - Classical-Music Searches on one page
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Simon Roberts
: I noticed in the November releases at mdt.co.uk that Garrido's recording
: of Monteverdi's Vespers has been released, at least in the UK. Has anyone
: who has heard it willing to give a report?
I've just listened to all of it once, parts of it twice, and, so far, am
underwhelmed. I quite agree with Matthew about the instrumental
contributions and the choir (I love the sound the basses make; they
provide at times the sort of firm underpinning to chords that so many of
today's top-heavy choirs don't). I'm less keen on the soloists; all have
pretty good voices, but none is quite first rate and they all sound rather
pallid to me interpretatively: they don't sound like they believe in what
they're singing (that's true at times of the choir too); they aren't bad
at conveying introspection etc., but anything approaching joy, exuberance,
exaltation, etc. is all but ignored. The Duo Seraphim is particularly
tame, I think, all those frills and flourishes performed with what sounds
to me like grim earnestness (cf Jacobs' and Christie's tenors, who also
have better voices to begin with); perhaps my idea of early baroque/late
renaissance Catholicism is completely wrong, but this all sounds a bit
po-faced to me.
Simon
charlie powell
thanks
Chas
Steve Grathwohl
(Simon Roberts) wrote:
Thanks Matthew and Simon for the detailed, thoughtful reviews. Sounds like
this fan of Parrott's, Savall's, and Christie's performances needs to give
it a listen. By the way, Simon; where did you get your copy?
Simon Roberts
: Thanks Matthew and Simon for the detailed, thoughtful reviews. Sounds like
: this fan of Parrott's, Savall's, and Christie's performances needs to give
: it a listen. By the way, Simon; where did you get your copy?
J&R in NY.
Simon
Matthew Westphal
Oh, I think Simon's assessment isn't so far from mine, given our
somewhat differeing tastes (exuberance being more important to Simon
than to me -- what he tends to hear as po-faced I tend to hear as
contemplative).
(At least I don't say that Garrido "lets the music speak for itself"!)
We definitely agree about the quality of the choir and the
instrumentalists. As for the soloists, well, the sopranos and basses
just don't have that much to do -- and as I said before, Garrido's
tenors are OK, but they're just not Paul Agnew and Joseph Cornwell
(Christie's tenors, who are spectacular).
Neil
wrote:
> anybody now were I can download this kinda stuff
you can't