Beethoven's piano concertos on period instruments?

[Chris J.]

What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
period instruments, and why? Just being curious.

Chris

[Notsure01]

On Feb 13, 2024 at 9:38:30 AM EST, ""Chris J.""

I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the Beethoven's on
fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of the Mozart and Haydn - and
never saw the advantage.

I just tried the Melvyn Tan/Norrington versions:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4D14bmfCxVXz_yw_xoe5eX83Ym3Iv5DF

I thought that Norrrington's accompaniment was fine - though scrawny - but the
piano part was lacking in expressivity - not sure if the fault was with the
piano, or the pianist - maybe both?

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 6:38:36 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
>
> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's
> piano concertos on period instruments, and why?

Period instruments are hazardous to one's hearing.
Avoid at all costs! ;-)

Cheers

[Mark Z]

On 13 Feb 2024 Notsure01 wrote:

>> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
>> period instruments, and why? Just being curious.

> I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the Beethoven's
> on fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of the Mozart and Haydn
> - and never saw the advantage.

Really? Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and contemporaries did't write
for modern pianos. They wrote for (Viennese) fortepianos, instruments very
different from modern pianos in construction, capabilities and sound.

Features that distinguish fortepianos from modern pianos:

https://jameshuntingford.com/168-2/

Kristian Bezuidenhout explains the fortepiano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2JqEKncsyM

From the Clavichord to the Modern Piano - Parts 1 & 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uCCw_hmILA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IaE2i-DmA

The Lost Sound - a documentary about the fortepiano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPB9c69iByA

Chris

[Chris J.]

On 13 Feb 2024 Notsure01 wrote:

>> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
>> period instruments, and why? Just being curious.

> I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the Beethoven's
> on fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of the Mozart and Haydn
> - and never saw the advantage.

[JohnGavin]

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 7:22:15 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
> On 13 Feb 2024 Notsure01 wrote:
>
> >> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
> >> period instruments, and why? Just being curious.
> > I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the Beethoven's
> > on fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of the Mozart and Haydn
> > - and never saw the advantage.
> Really? Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and contemporaries did't write
> for modern pianos. They wrote for (Viennese) fortepianos, instruments very
> different from modern pianos in construction, capabilities and sound.
>
>
>

> Chris

It’s all good in the sense that the fortepiano brings out aspects of the music that the modern piano can’t. What ruins it in classical music is a kind of dogma, that when it becomes rigid fails to see that the modern piano as well brings out aspects of the music that the forte piano can’t, including a greater sustainability. It’s all a matter of taste. To believe that it is “correct“ to perform music for the instrument of the time it was written, denies the possibility that the composer, if they could time travel to the future, would not be delighted in the advantages of the more modern instruments. From case to case nobody really knows the answer.

For example, I take the very unpopular view that modern or revival harpsichords are far more interesting and colorful than the historically, correct authentic instruments. When I try out a recording of an authentic replication harpsichord I listen to the first minute of each track, and most often find that the timbre is exactly the same from track to track, and that one sound is not particularly pleasant or beautiful in the first place! I miss the nazal stop, The lute stop, The depth of a 16 foot stop, etc. on all those old instruments. And frankly the fact that modern harpsichords did not exist at the time of Bach and Scarlatti don’t matter to me in the least. Music is a living art, and the thrill of hearing the music the way Bach’s contemporaries heard it lasts for me about 10 seconds. It really has become an out of proportion obsession in my opinion. The point being there’s room for every approach without becoming dogmatic and self righteous about historically informed performance practices. The strangest thing of all to me is that musicologists and music fans in general raise all kinds of objections to modern harpsichords, but remain silent when baroque music is performed on the modern piano, which is far more distant to the original instrument.

[mINE109]

On 2/14/24 7:07 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 7:22:15 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
>> On 13 Feb 2024 Notsure01 wrote:
>>
>>>> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano
>>>> concertos on period instruments, and why? Just being curious.
>>> I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the
>>> Beethoven's on fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of
>>> the Mozart and Haydn - and never saw the advantage.
>> Really? Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and contemporaries did't
>> write for modern pianos. They wrote for (Viennese) fortepianos,
>> instruments very different from modern pianos in construction,
>> capabilities and sound.

> It’s all good in the sense that the fortepiano brings out aspects of
> the music that the modern piano can’t. What ruins it in classical
> music is a kind of dogma, that when it becomes rigid fails to see
> that the modern piano as well brings out aspects of the music that
> the forte piano can’t, including a greater sustainability. It’s all a
> matter of taste. To believe that it is “correct“ to perform music
> for the instrument of the time it was written, denies the possibility
> that the composer, if they could time travel to the future, would not
> be delighted in the advantages of the more modern instruments. From
> case to case nobody really knows the answer.

The really known answer is the composers didn't hear modern instruments
or compose for them.

> For example, I take the very unpopular view that modern or revival
> harpsichords are far more interesting and colorful than the
> historically, correct authentic instruments.

There's no one here arguing authentic instruments are the only way to
go. I would hate to be deprived of the great musicians who played modern

instruments.

> When I try out a recording of an authentic replication harpsichord I listen to the
> first minute of each track, and most often find that the timbre is
> exactly the same from track to track, and that one sound is not
> particularly pleasant or beautiful in the first place! I miss the
> nazal stop, The lute stop, The depth of a 16 foot stop, etc. on all
> those old instruments. And frankly the fact that modern harpsichords
> did not exist at the time of Bach and Scarlatti don’t matter to me in
> the least. Music is a living art, and the thrill of hearing the
> music the way Bach’s contemporaries heard it lasts for me about 10
> seconds. It really has become an out of proportion obsession in my
> opinion. The point being there’s room for every approach without
> becoming dogmatic and self righteous about historically informed
> performance practices. The strangest thing of all to me is that
> musicologists and music fans in general raise all kinds of objections
> to modern harpsichords, but remain silent when baroque music is
> performed on the modern piano, which is far more distant to the
> original instrument.

That's quite the straw man there. I'm open to the possibility others
actually like the sound of historical and copied instruments.

Revival harpsichords have their own repertoire. A friend hired for
Milhaud was offered a single manual kit instrument play. Worst of both
worlds!

[Mandryka]

If you can, have a listen to Anne Marie Dragsotis's CD called Le Clavecin Mythologique. She uses a highly modified late 18th century Taskin.

[Mandryka]

That should say - Anne Marie Dragosits.

[Notsure01]

On Feb 14, 2024 at 10:39:11 AM EST, "mINE109" <pianof...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2/14/24 7:07 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 7:22:15 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
>>> On 13 Feb 2024 Notsure01 wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano
>>>>> concertos on period instruments, and why? Just being curious.
>>>> I was curious myself, since I don't recall ever hearing the
>>>> Beethoven's on fortepiano - certainly have experienced many of
>>>> the Mozart and Haydn - and never saw the advantage.
>>> Really? Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and contemporaries did't
>>> write for modern pianos. They wrote for (Viennese) fortepianos,
>>> instruments very different from modern pianos in construction,
>>> capabilities and sound.
>
>> It’s all good in the sense that the fortepiano brings out aspects of
>> the music that the modern piano can’t.

Thanks, Chris, for including all of those links - basic information, but some
points were new to me. The most interesting comments in the videos reinforce
what John Gavin is saying - that because of the basic differences in design
there are characteristics of the music that are missed on modern instruments -
this is discussed by Robert Levin in the "Lost Sound" documentary about 8
minutes in.

What would be helpful would be to link to some exceptional fortepiano
performances of Mozart and then to highlight specific passages that are
obscure on modern instruments.

Of course, in the end it is a matter of taste - I find the tone of modern
instruments to be more attractive than the - forgive me - hollow thud sound of
some fortepianos I've heard. I noticed that in the documentary the restorers
mentioned that there are many poor sounding instruments!

Many years ago I acquired the Malcolm Bilson/Gardiner box of the complete
Mozarts and didn't care for most of the performances. The skill and taste of
the performer in the end is surely more important than the quality of the
instrument - I'd rather hear Richter on one of his fabled tours through the
back woods of Siberia play one of those rickety pianos than to listen to
Entremont on a Fazoli!

I compared Bilson to Richter in K. 456:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBKjmZ0Q_J4&t=31s

It would be great to get a link to a superior fortepiano performance...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <uqjhip$2s11r$1...@dont-email.me>,

Notsure01 <nots...@myemail.invalid> wrote:
>The most interesting comments in the videos reinforce what John
>Gavin is saying - that because of the basic differences in design
>there are characteristics of the music that are missed on modern
>instruments -

With Beethoven in particular, the balance between the piano &
orchestra was a big part of creating the 19th century piano concerto
genre. That sense of balance is different with different instruments,
and is also a major historical-conceptual aspect of the piano
concertos.

And I'm pretty sure that the Hogwood/Lupin set on L'Oiseau Lyre
(released in 1988, says the internet...) was the first I heard
Beethoven on period instruments. I was completely floored by it,
just the basic sound. I had no interest in "period instruments"
at the time, but it completely changed the music for me. I lost
interest in that particular performance a long time ago -- and have
no current favorite to suggest, sorry! -- but maybe it's worth
hearing a classic....

[Mandryka]

Schoonderwoerd.

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:15:42 PM UTC, Notsure01 wrote:

Badura Skoda/ Colegium Aureum

[Gerard]

Op dinsdag 13 februari 2024 om 15:38:36 UTC+1 schreef Chris J.:

> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
> period instruments, and why? Just being curious.
>
> Chris

Brautigam with Willens (BIS)

[Notsure01]

I just checked out this set of the Beethoven concertos via Presto
Streaming and for my taste it has fine versions - good attention to
phrasing and personality in the orchestral part - and real
expressiveness by Brautigam. The advantage of the use of fortepiano(s)
is the absolute clarity of the passagework - as is pointed out in Chris'
documentary the sound on a fortepiano decays more quickly and avoids
"smudging" of sound.

There is also a better balance between the piano and the orchestra - as
was mentioned in the documentary this changes the effect of the dialog
between soloist and orchestra - for me, not to the advantage in the
Emperor.

I said fortepiano(s) since two different instruments were used in this set:

"The piano writing, pushing the instrument to its limits, testifies to
this new approach, and this has led some commentators to remark that
Beethoven was writing for the piano of the future.

The choice of instruments for this recording reflects this process of
evolution. Ronald Brautigam has chosen two pianos made by Paul McNulty.
For the first three concertos he uses a copy of an instrument by Walter
& Sohn from 1805. Walter pianos, from the ‘Viennese’ school, were held
in particularly high regard by Mozart, who praised their singing, full
sonority. For the last two concertos with their new aesthetic approach,
the instrument is a copy of one by Conrad Graf from 1819 with a range of
six and a half octaves; its ‘una corda’ pedal is used to particular
effect in the slow movement of the Fourth Concerto. The more sonorous
and robust pianos built by Graf were the only ones capable of expressing
the energy and intensity of Beethoven’s newest works."

Both instruments sounded fine to me!

Thanks, Gerard, for mentioning this set. But as Chris requested, he was
asking why this is a favorite? I'm well aware that I'm among the least
qualified of RMCR participants to opine on piano interpretations, so it
could make an interesting discussion to have you or other knowledgable
folks point out the advantages - or not - of fortepiano in particular
performances.

Thanks again to Chris for bringing up this topic!

[Gerard]

Op donderdag 15 februari 2024 om 13:57:04 UTC+1 schreef Notsure01:

Ah, I did not see the second half of the original question (the 'why?' half).
Mainly because of the sound of the used instruments. Of course next to a fine performance. I don't know how about Brautigam's other set with modern instruments and another conductor, also on BIS. Anyhow, Willens does a fine job here.
Recently I wrote about another recording by Brautigam (Impromptus by Schubert). On that recording the sound of the instrument was even finer, but of course differently recorded, without an orchestra.

[Notsure01]

On 2/15/24 11:28 AM, Gerard wrote:
> Op donderdag 15 februari 2024 om 13:57:04 UTC+1 schreef Notsure01:
>> On 2/15/24 6:34 AM, Gerard wrote:
>>> Op dinsdag 13 februari 2024 om 15:38:36 UTC+1 schreef Chris J.:
>>>> What are your favourite recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos on
>>>> period instruments, and why? Just being curious.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> Brautigam with Willens (BIS)

> Ah, I did not see the second half of the original question (the 'why?' half).
> Mainly because of the sound of the used instruments. Of course next to a fine performance. I don't know how about Brautigam's other set with modern instruments and another conductor, also on BIS. Anyhow, Willens does a fine job here.
> Recently I wrote about another recording by Brautigam (Impromptus by Schubert). On that recording the sound of the instrument was even finer, but of course differently recorded, without an orchestra.

Thanks for the clarification - and I've just been listening to a
performance mentioned in this thread by Mandryka: Badura Skoda/ Colegium
Aureum

He might have been referring to a performance of K.456, but I just found
a Beethoven 4th by these artists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs9D5Rb0uVY

It seems B-S made innumerable recordings - and he just died in 2019 at
the age of 91 - but rarely is mentioned as a notable interpreter. I
found this version to be very enjoyable -- but the sound of the
instrument is not that attractive.

It might be interesting - at least to me - to have the keyboard experts
here discuss other performances that show the advantages of the
fortepiano - thanks!

[Mandryka]

Thee are two recordings concertos (op 19 and op 58) with Stanley Hoogland and Frans Bruggen which are worth a punt I think.