OT: Von Deutscher Seele
bob.h...@comcast.net
piece of analysis that gives some insight as to why Mr. Schaffer
displays his cultural attitudes the way he does here.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,474636,00.html
Bob Harper
William Sommerwerck
equally distorted view of history, theirs and others.
I am embarrassed to be of German extraction. I expect better of Germans...
who once had ze highest kultur in ze entire history of ZE WORLD!
Paul Ilechko
Looking at the actual facts of damage caused throughout the world, it's
pretty hard *not* to come to the conclusion that the USA is far more
dangerous than Iran. After all, how many countries has Iran destroyed,
beyond all hope of recovery, in recent times? I don't see any evidence
that Ahmadinejad is any more dangerously deluded than Bush - it's
probably a tie - but Bush has far more power to act on his insanity, and
has taken full advantage of that.
Now, I will agree 100% that America is a better place to live than Iran;
for most people anyway, perhaps not if you're black and from New Orleans
- but that has nothing to do with the danger represented to the rest of
the world.
Paul Ilechko
Here's a more interesting article, and it's funny too:
Financial Times
March 30 2007
COMMENT & ANALYSIS
America’s ‘Seinfeld’ strategy in Iraq
By Michael Fullilove
The history of US foreign policy is punctuated by a series of doctrines.
The Monroe doctrine (1823) declared that European powers would not be
allowed to intrude into the western hemisphere. The Truman doctrine
(1947) committed Washington to assisting free peoples in the fight
against communism. The Nixon doctrine (1969) warned that America’s
allies would need to assume primary responsibility for their own defence.
In recent times US grand strategy has been guided by a new kind of
doctrine, named after not its author but its exemplar: the Costanza
doctrine.
This doctrine, which had its heyday in 2002-2004 but remains
influential, recalls the classic episode of the TV comedy Seinfeld, “The
Opposite”, in which George Costanza temporarily improves his fortunes by
rejecting all the principles according to which he has lived his life
and doing the opposite of what his training indicates he should do. As
Jerry tells him: “If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite
would have to be right.”
Emboldened, he tries a counter-intuitive pick-up line on an attractive
woman: “My name is George. I’m unemployed and I live with my parents.”
At the end of their date, when she invites him up to her apartment, he
demurs, cautioning that they do not know each other well enough. “Who
are you, George Costanza?” the lady asks. Replies George: “I’m the
opposite of every guy you’ve ever met.”
The Iraq policy pursued by the Bush administration satisfies the
Costanza criterion: it is the opposite of every foreign policy the world
has ever met.
The Costanza doctrine is most closely associated with President George
W. Bush and his first-term confidants: the wild-eyed neo-cons and the
dead-eyed ultra-cons. But there is a wider group, which includes most
presidential candidates and many of Washington’s foreign policy elite,
who are not fully paid-up subscribers to the doctrine but went along
with it nonetheless. Allied governments in London, Madrid and Canberra
also signed up.
In “The Opposite”, George breaches the most fundamental laws in his
universe – for example, the age-old principle that “bald men with no
jobs and no money, who live with their parents, don’t approach strange
women”.
Similarly, in its geopolitical incarnation, adherents to the Costanza
doctrine cast aside many of the fundamental tenets they learnt at staff
college or graduate school. Let me name a few.
First, military and diplomatic resources are finite and should be
directed towards your greatest priority. An example of the opposite
approach would be for a country that has been attacked by a non-state
terrorist group to retaliate by removing a state regime that had nothing
to do with the attack.
Second, take care not to weaken your intimidatory powers through poor
military performance. Aim for short, sharp victories (such as that in
the 1991 Gulf war) that get your adversaries worrying about the extent
of US power. The opposite would be to launch a war of choice involving
the drawn-out occupation of an Arab country – the kind of thing that
gets your allies worrying about the limits of US power.
Third, you get by with help from friends. Although the powerful are
sometimes tempted to go it alone, international support helps determine
the perceived legitimacy of an action, which affects its risk and costs.
Building this support requires discussion and compromise. The opposite
would be to spurn real negotiations, slough off your allies, bin
multilateral agreements you do not like and declare that you are not
bound by the rules that govern everyone else.
Fourth, state-building is hard. Few of the international efforts at
state-building since the cold war’s end have succeeded. Luckily there
are numberless reports identifying lessons learnt. The alternative would
be to do the opposite of what those reports recommend, for example by
deploying insufficient troops and dismantling any extant national
institutions such as the army.
Fifth, democracy is a blessing that requires patient nurturing. The
opposite approach would be to seek to impose democracy by force of arms
on a population traumatised by decades of vicious and totalitarian rule.
Sixth, politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum. If two dangerous states
are struggling for dominance of a strategic region, maintaining a
balance between them may be the least worst option. The opposite would
be to emasculate one of them, thereby greatly increasing the relative
power of the other.
Finally, historians often cite the need for prudence in international
relations, quoting the physician’s dictum: “First, do no harm.” The
opposite would be: “Don’t think too much, just chance your arm and see
what happens!”
There is a moment in “The Opposite” when George Costanza pre-empts some
hooligans making a ruckus at the movie theatre: “Shut your mouths or
I’ll shut ’em for ya. And if you think I’m kidding, just try me. Try me!
Because I would love it!”
For a while, that kind of method worked – for both Georges. Then normal
service resumed. The Costanza doctrine is all about hope, but when it
comes to making your way, in New York or the world, experience is the
better guide.
Johannes Roehl
> bob.h...@comcast.net wrote:
>> This article doesn't mention music, but I think it's a pretty shrewd
>> piece of analysis that gives some insight as to why Mr. Schaffer
>> displays his cultural attitudes the way he does here.
>>
>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,474636,00.html
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Looking at the actual facts of damage caused throughout the world, it's
> pretty hard *not* to come to the conclusion that the USA is far more
> dangerous than Iran. After all, how many countries has Iran destroyed,
> beyond all hope of recovery, in recent times? I don't see any evidence
> that Ahmadinejad is any more dangerously deluded than Bush - it's
> probably a tie - but Bush has far more power to act on his insanity, and
> has taken full advantage of that.
All this is old news (the quoted article is crap anyway). I believe St.
Augustine relates the following anecdote: A pirate was captured and
brought before Alexander the Great for judgement. Alexander asked, how
he could be such an evil guy, capture innocent ship, pillage villages
and turn this region into an unsafe and dangerous place. The pirate
replied: And what about you, who turns the whole world into an unsafe
place? Only because I have but one ship and a small crew, I am called a
pirate, whereas you who has a fleet and armies at his disposal, are
called emperor and hero.
A point which really pisses me of is the mimosic behaviour of many
Americans. It's extremely obvious why all kinds of more or less openly
expressed "Anti-Americanism" are on the rise, but they keep whining like
a spoiled kid, because the others don't like to play with him after rude
behaviour. But they have no problems at all to exhibit open "Anti-Xism"
(insert anything for X except US of A and Israel), e.g. crude and rude
generalized judgements about German or French people.
Johannes
Bob Harper
then it was 'crap', so...
Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
I haven't read the article throrughly, only briefly looked over it, so
maybe I didn't get it quite right, but it's sad to see something as
hollowly polemical as that appears in Der Spiegel. Really sad.
A lot of people in Germany have fairly well informed and critical
opinions about what's going on, and that's why many of them are so
critical of the Bush government and what's happening in America right
now, because of the generally very good education about Germany's own
past and because they can see the parallels. That that critical
attitude is attacked here in this polemical fashion and that the
author calls for "another round of re-education" where Germans are
already multiple times better educated about the negative aspects of
their own history than any other country is something which I find so
deeply disturbing that I have no words to express that.
I would never have thought that I would read something like that in
Der Spiegel. Maybe it was an attempt at sarcasm that got lost in
translation, I would have to see the original article.
However, I have nothing against America in general, I just hate and
despise stupid provincialist people like you who hold it against me
that I once mentioned that I studied and know the musical culture of
the place I grew up in. How bizarre that somebody from some cow town
in the middle of nowhere (no matter where, in America or anywhere
else) with none of that cultural tradition and not even the basic
understanding for that culture feels the need to take refuge to
nationalist attacks to put other people down who have spent many years
of countless hours of studying and practicing and want to discredit
all that in a chitchat forum on the net just because it gives them the
feeling they know something about a culture they don't know anything
about.
That is so weird, especially coming from someone who doesn't even
speak my language. I just pictured myself talking to somebody - say,
from Indonesia - whose language and culture I don't understand but who
I try to put down because he thinks he knows his own culture. When I
picture that, I feel like a stupid, totally ignorant asshole. Just
like you are.
hooligan_chorister
"OT: Von Deutscher Seele
This article doesn't mention music, but..."
Mr. Harper, may I ask you what point there is in making OT posts
regarding world affairs in a group called
rec.music.classical.recordings?
Bob Harper
read it. Secondly, I thought it did, in fact, give some insight into Mr.
Schaffer's rather irritating superiority complex (most recently
exemplified by his post in this thread). I hope that's sufficient pont
for you.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
(a stemwinding denunciation of yours truly and all his works)
In the immortal words of Ronaldus Magnus: There you go again.
Your total ignorance of me has once again not prevented you from jumping
to numerous conclusions, none justified. I do plead guilty to having
grown up in the Midwest, but somehow I've developed a veneer of
civilization which strikes me as being at least as thick as yours (and
that's all any of us has--a veneer), that handicap notwithstanding.
You know, if you ever got over your vanity, I suspect you'd be an
interesting interlocutor, but as long as you demand obeisance to your
self-proclaimed superiority, it ain't gonna happen.
Bob Harper
Ian Pace
<bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1175266625.4...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
one is therefore a hypocrite for criticising events in Guantanmo Bay?
Ian
Ian Pace
"Johannes Roehl" <parr...@web.de> wrote in message
news:57587aF...@mid.individual.net...
> Paul Ilechko schrieb:
>> bob.h...@comcast.net wrote:
>>> This article doesn't mention music, but I think it's a pretty shrewd
>>> piece of analysis that gives some insight as to why Mr. Schaffer
>>> displays his cultural attitudes the way he does here.
>>>
>>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,474636,00.html
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> Looking at the actual facts of damage caused throughout the world, it's
>> pretty hard *not* to come to the conclusion that the USA is far more
>> dangerous than Iran. After all, how many countries has Iran destroyed,
>> beyond all hope of recovery, in recent times? I don't see any evidence
>> that Ahmadinejad is any more dangerously deluded than Bush - it's
>> probably a tie - but Bush has far more power to act on his insanity, and
>> has taken full advantage of that.
>
> All this is old news (the quoted article is crap anyway).
I believe there is an increasing strain of neo-con thought in the media in
Germany (of which this article is a prime example) - wondered if you could
say any more about this?
Ian
Ian Pace
> Americans. It's extremely obvious why all kinds of more or less openly
> expressed "Anti-Americanism" are on the rise, but they keep whining like a
> spoiled kid, because the others don't like to play with him after rude
> behaviour. But they have no problems at all to exhibit open "Anti-Xism"
> (insert anything for X except US of A and Israel), e.g. crude and rude
> generalized judgements about German or French people.
>
good deal more about America than the average American knows about their
countries now.
Ian
Michael Schaffer
>
> - Show quoted text -
The fact that I studied music in my home country and know my country's
musical and general cultural heritage (the good, the bad, and the
ugly) very well while you don't even have a superficial understanding
of our culture but still wish to put down those who do as
"nationalists" has nothing to do
- with that sadly failed attempt at a polemical article which totally
misses the point it apparently wants to make and gets a whole lot of
things confused; for instance, there is nothing "hypocritical" about
people watching American TV series and at the same time protesting
against the American government; because most people don't have
anything against America in general, but they see that the current
government is pretty bad; still, that doesn't lead them to "boycott"
America and American products; so there is no "anti-americanism" in
these protests; just anti-bushism, nothing more, nothing less.
- with anybody's superiority complex. I don't compare myself to you;
you play no role in my mental world; you are just a guy who types in
silly messages on the net and attacks foreigners who speak informedly
about their own culture as "nationalists"; who thinks he has a
cultural "veneer" that he can compare to the deep involvedness
somebody has who grew up in a place and studied aspects of its
cultural history and practices on a professional level; you are just a
sad clown who feels the need to turn his envy of other people's
culture into racist attacks; you are a total lowlife; as such, not
just me, but anybody who has any kind of respect for the
accomplishments of other people and peoples is vastly superior to the
rotten piece of shit you are.
Michael Schaffer
> Johannes Roehl wrote:
> > Paul Ilechko schrieb:
And that makes it totally representative of all Germans in general?
Only an ignorant racist idiot like you can believe that. You don't
even understand the context and tone in which the article is written.
It is crap, but if you understood from where the author is coming (or
trying to come), you wouldn't have used this article for your
chauvinist nonsense.
But it is interesting to see (again) how little you understand about
Germans and Germany, yet how grandiose and generalized your opinions
are. I guess that doesn't just apply to that subject, but probably
anything and anybody outside your extremely narrow view of the world.
Ian Pace
"Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175347997.8...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> But it is interesting to see (again) how little you understand about
> Germans and Germany, yet how grandiose and generalized your opinions
> are. I guess that doesn't just apply to that subject, but probably
> anything and anybody outside your extremely narrow view of the world.
>
one-dimensional view Germans have about America and Americans, in order to
say 'Look, this shows us what Germans are like' seems to be lost on Mr
Harper.
Ian
Paul Ilechko
> A point which really pisses me of is the mimosic behaviour of many
> Americans. It's extremely obvious why all kinds of more or less openly
> expressed "Anti-Americanism" are on the rise ...
One thing to be clear about - being anti-Bush is not the same as being
anti-American. In fact, I would say it's the opposite - it's the
Bushistas who are against everything good and decent in America, so
being anti-Bush is to be pro-America.
Michael Schaffer
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> (a stemwinding denunciation of yours truly and all his works)
>
> In the immortal words of Ronaldus Magnus: There you go again.
No, no, here *you* go again. Who was it who started this idiotic
thread?
> Your total ignorance of me has once again not prevented you from jumping
> to numerous conclusions, none justified.
Your total ignorance of many things, and among these, Germans and
German culture, has once again not prevented you from jumping to
numerous conclusions, none justified.
> I do plead guilty to having
> grown up in the Midwest, but somehow I've developed a veneer of
> civilization which strikes me as being at least as thick as yours (and
> that's all any of us has--a veneer), that handicap notwithstanding.
If you had your own culture, then you would understand that it is much
deeper than just a "veneer". That can be added on top of that. Mine is
no doubt several layers deeper than yours. I speak 6 languages, you
only speak one. I speak yours, you don't speak mine. I have a fairly
detailed knowledge of your culture, you don't even have a superficial
knowledge of mine. I don't attack other people who speak from the
depth of their cultural background acquired by grwoing up and living
in a place for decades You do exactly that, showing the deep envy and
inferiority you feel.
You really don't have any culture, neither a "veneer" nor a deeper
involvement. Your provincial little ego makes you think you are so
cultured because you know the names of a few foreign composers. But
you probably can't even pronounce them properly.
> You know, if you ever got over your vanity, I suspect you'd be an
> interesting interlocutor, but as long as you demand obeisance to your
> self-proclaimed superiority, it ain't gonna happen.
In order to talk to me on my level, you have to *be* on that level.
And that you clearly aren't, so that won't ever happen, I guess.
> Bob Harper
aleksios
> I would bet money on it that the average German and French
> person knows a good deal more about America than the average
> American knows about their countries now.
There's an anecdote about the Finnish military hero, Marshal
Mannerheim. During the Winter War, a harried young Finnish staff
officer broke down and exclaimed, "Oh, those Russians! Why won't they
just leave us alone?" Mannerheim calmly replied, "There are 150
million of them and 4 million of us. If there were 150 million Finns
and 4 million Russians, do you think we'd leave them alone?"
Of course we know more about Americans than they know about us. For
the same reason the citizens of Antioch knew more about Rome than
Romans knew about Antioch -- a reason so trite and obvious it doesn't
even bear mention.
--Alex (the obvious philistine)
aleksios
> All this is old news (the quoted article is crap anyway).
The article is right on. There's something unutterably disgusting when
Germans, of all people -- GERMANS -- draw H-mustaches on Dubya's pic.
They -- you -- are saying, there's no difference between those two;
there's no difference between what we did then and what they are doing
now.
Well, to these tired old eyes, there is a difference. A big one. The
people who have bestowed upon the world the likes of Majdanek,
Sobibor, Treblinka, Theresienstadt,..., should look to themselves
first. For Germans, who have killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet
POWs they took, to even dare speak about Guantanamo is obscene.
> A point which really pisses me of is the mimosic behaviour of
> many Americans. It's extremely obvious why all kinds of more or
> less openly expressed "Anti-Americanism" are on the rise, but
> they keep whining like a spoiled kid, because the others don't
> like to play with him after rude behaviour.
Americans are overbearing, rude, ignorant, self-seeking... and they
fart too much. In other words, they're a lot like the rest of us. But
the one thing that I've never seen an American do is "whine", let
alone keep doing it.
--Alex (the angry philistine)
aleksios
said:
> [...] A lot of people in Germany have fairly well informed and
> critical opinions about what's going on, and that's why many of
> them are so critical of the Bush government and what's happening
> in America right now, because of the generally very good
> education about Germany's own past and because they can see the
> parallels. [...]
There's no denying it that Germans did more than most others to face
up to their past and recognise the truth about their horrible legacy.
But perhaps not enough has been done if a German can talk about
"parallels".
I'm not going to go through the usual litany. I'll let a German speak:
[Berlin, 1945] "[...] a sixteen-year-old
Berliner called Dieter Borkovsky described what
he witnessed in a crowded S-Bahn train from the
Anhalter Bahnhof. 'There was terror on the faces
of people. They were full of anger and despair.
I had never heard such cursing before. Suddenly
someone shouted above the noise, "Silence!" We
saw a small dirty soldier with two Iron Crosses
and the German Cross in Gold. On his sleeve he
had a badge with four metal tanks, which meant
that he had destroyed four tanks at close
quarters. "I've got something to tell you," he
shouted, and the carriage fell silent. "Even if
you don't want to listen to me, stop whingeing.
We have to win this war. We must not lose our
courage. If others win the war, and if they do
to us only a fraction of what we have done in
the occupied territories, there won't be a
single German left in a few weeks." It became so
quiet in that carriage that one could have heard
a pin drop."
[Beevor, A. (2002) The Fall of Berlin, 1945.
Viking, New York, p. 189]
--Alex (the angrier philistine)
Bob Harper
(snip)
appreciation of others. Perhaps you'd like to hear from Germany's
erstwhile Foreign Minister on some of the subjects/attitudes under
discussion (?) here:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009879
Bob Harper
Paul Ilechko
> For Germans, who have killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet
> POWs they took, to even dare speak about Guantanamo is obscene.
The second world war ended over sixty years ago. Most Germans alive
today were not even born then. We should be grateful that younger
Germans are still paying attention to their history, not refusing to
accept like the Japanese. Guantanamo is obscene. Bringing attention to
it is not.
aleksios
> [...] Only an ignorant racist idiot like you [...]
>
> [...] Mine is no doubt several layers deeper than yours. I speak
> 6 languages, you only speak one. I speak yours, you don't speak
> mine. I have a fairly detailed knowledge of your culture, you
> don't even have a superficial knowledge of mine. [...]
>
> [...] You really don't have any culture, neither a "veneer" nor
> a deeper involvement. Your provincial little ego [...]
>
> [...] you are just a sad clown who feels the need to turn his
> envy of other people's culture into racist attacks;
>
> [...] you are a total lowlife [...] the rotten piece of shit you
> are. [...]
The quotes above, extracted from three messages, show what I
particularly appreciate about this gentleman, whose messages is such a
pleasure to read. It's his remarkable modesty, his careful choice of
words, his superb mastery of the finer points of the English language,
and, most of all, his good breeding and unfailing good manners. In one
word, he is so... vornehm.
--Alex (der altvaeterlich Philister)
Andrej Kluge
Paul Ilechko schrieb:
Thank you. I count myself to one of those.
I may add that I know literally noone in my wider circle of friends that
endorses Bush's globval politics. The mentioned article is really a nasty
piece of polemic journalism. I wonder if it ever appeared in the print
version of Spiegel (in German), as it would have surely aroused hundreds of
outraged responses.
Ciao
A.
William Sommerwerck
> of friends that endorses Bush's global politics.
One does not have to agree with Bush's politics to see the irrationality of
equating Bush with Hitler or condemning the US as the major threat to world
peace.
Bob Harper
(snip)
> Mine isno doubt several layers deeper than yours. I speak 6 languages, you
> only speak one.
Wrong.
I speak yours, you don't speak mine.
Wrong again.
I have a fairly
> detailed knowledge of your culture, you don't even have a superficial
> knowledge of mine.
Wrong a third time
I don't attack other people who speak from the
> depth of their cultural background acquired by grwoing up and living
> in a place for decades You do exactly that, showing the deep envy and
> inferiority you feel.
That's four.
>
> You really don't have any culture, neither a "veneer" nor a deeper
> involvement. Your provincial little ego makes you think you are so
> cultured because you know the names of a few foreign composers. But
> you probably can't even pronounce them properly.
That's five.
Not doing too well, are you?
(snip)
> In order to talk to me on my level, you have to *be* on that level.
> And that you clearly aren't, so that won't ever happen, I guess.
>
And I suppose you are more powerful than a locomotive, faster than a
speeding bullet, and can leap tall buildings with a single bound :)
Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
> On 2007-03-30 15:54:52 -0400, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> said:
>
> > All this is old news (the quoted article is crap anyway).
>
> The article is right on. There's something unutterably disgusting when
> Germans, of all people -- GERMANS -- draw H-mustaches on Dubya's pic.
> They -- you -- are saying, there's no difference between those two;
> there's no difference between what we did then and what they are doing
> now.
>
> Well, to these tired old eyes, there is a difference. A big one. The
> people who have bestowed upon the world the likes of Majdanek,
> Sobibor, Treblinka, Theresienstadt,..., should look to themselves
> first. For Germans, who have killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet
> POWs they took, to even dare speak about Guantanamo is obscene.
That is a deeply, deeply racist statement. More or less all of the
people alive and protesting against these things in Germany today
haven't done any of the above. That was more than 60 years and several
generations ago. Still, the confrontation with the "collective past"
is going on very openly, and that isa good thing. But blaming people
for something they did not do themselves, just because they come from
a place in which these things happened, is not. It is deeply racist
and perverse.
> > A point which really pisses me of is the mimosic behaviour of
> > many Americans. It's extremely obvious why all kinds of more or
> > less openly expressed "Anti-Americanism" are on the rise, but
> > they keep whining like a spoiled kid, because the others don't
> > like to play with him after rude behaviour.
>
> Americans are overbearing, rude, ignorant, self-seeking... and they
> fart too much. In other words, they're a lot like the rest of us. But
> the one thing that I've never seen an American do is "whine", let
> alone keep doing it.
Apparently you don't know a lot of Americans. They collectively whine
a lot. They still whine about Pearl Harbor, and there is a whole
culture of whining about "9 11" that is everywhere. Lots of people who
weren't affected by that act of terror at all still fell deeply hurt
by it and use it as excuse and reason for basically anything.
As Jon Stewart (that's a guy who host a satirical show on TV about
politics) said, "we have totally yadayaded 9 11 to death".
> --Alex (the angry philistine)
Michael Schaffer
> On 2007-03-30 20:00:08 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
> > [...] A lot of people in Germany have fairly well informed and
> > critical opinions about what's going on, and that's why many of
> > them are so critical of the Bush government and what's happening
> > in America right now, because of the generally very good
> > education about Germany's own past and because they can see the
> > parallels. [...]
>
> There's no denying it that Germans did more than most others to face
> up to their past and recognise the truth about their horrible legacy.
> But perhaps not enough has been done if a German can talk about
> "parallels".
Probably more than enough. But it is very obvious much more of that
kind of rethinking and education needs to be done in many other
places, by a lot of people when somebody like you thinks he can decide
what "a German" can talk about and what not.
You are several generations behind me and the vast majority of Germans
in your primitive generalized racist way of thinking. You have a ton
of catching up to do.
Michael Schaffer
Thanks. I appreciate your appreciation. These things unfortunately
needed to be said. Harper is a primitve uncultured racist who thinks
he can put other people down only because they come from a place like
Germany. He thinks he can smear somebody like me as having a
"superiority complex" based on absolutely nothing except that I once
said here that I grew in the musical culture of my home country and
studied the traditional musical craft there, so I think I know what
that "good old tradition" is much better than people who have no
direct connection, no practical involvement in it at all.
Michael Schaffer
I only appreciate educated people who respect and are interested in
other cultures. Not primitive racists like you who think they have a
"veneer" of culture because they have read a few things about this and
that.
> Perhaps you'd like to hear from Germany's
> erstwhile Foreign Minister on some of the subjects/attitudes under
> discussion (?) here:
>
> http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009879
>
> Bob Harper- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, thanks. Fischer is a sad figure, an actor, an impostor who always
turned with the wind. He did pretty well at that. I have no idea he is
a professor in America now. Why? He doesn't even have a high school
diploma.
John_H...@msn.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
You really know little of the U.S. And from what I've read with your
comments so far you don't know much about your own country (and my
parents' homeland) heritage and culture. Sad. You are very lucky you
operate with such a sense of entitlement. The opening article about
the Germans and Bush is a right wing obfuscation (which is rampant in
the U.S.) - so get over it! You are manipulated in this discussion -
as bright as you are! Hauser
Bob Harper
> You are manipulated in this discussion -
> as bright as you are! Hauser
>
Shhh!
Bob Harper
aleksios
said:
> The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
thirty years ago.
> Guantanamo is obscene.
>From the point of view of the Declaration of Independence and the
principles and ideals America (with all its warts, missing teeth, and
beer belly) has stood for? Beyond the shadow of a question.
> Bringing attention to it is not.
Which is exactly why so many *Americans* (and others) are doing
something about it.
But for the *Germans* to wax righteous about it and compare Dubya to
Grofaz is like the registered sex offender chastising the office oaf
for making a dirty joke in mixed company; it's like the reformed
alcoholic lambasting the redneck who's had one too many Buds on
Superbowl day; it's like someone who's seen Jesus Christ Superstar 6
million times rebuking Gardiner for his Matthaeuspassion tempi.
--Alex (the rhetorical philistine)
aleksios
said:
> [...] That is a deeply, deeply racist statement. [...] It is
> deeply racist and perverse. [...]
>
> [...] Apparently you don't know a lot of Americans. They
> collectively whine a lot. They still whine [...]
I'm so sorry, Michael. I've pressed the wrong key on the keyboard, and
now the messages are all mixed up. Could you please point out again
which one is the racist statement?
--Alex (the confused philistine)
aleksios
said:
> On Mar 31, 6:05 am, "aleksios" <alex0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There's no denying it that Germans did more than most others to
> > face up to their past and recognise the truth about their
> > horrible legacy. [...]
>
> Probably more than enough. [...]
Why, have we run out of victims to remember?
Anyway, since more than enough has been done, could you please remind
me -- why exactly couldn't the Chancellor visit the "Verbrechen..."
exhibition? And what exactly did he say was impermissible?...
--Alex (the mnemonic philistine)
Paul Ilechko
> On 2007-03-31 11:33:53 -0400, Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net>
> said:
>
>> The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
>
> That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
> us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
> Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
> thirty years ago.
I guess that neither reading nor logic is your strong suit. But putting
words that were never said into others' mouths - well, that's something
that you know how to do.
Andrej Kluge
aleksios schrieb:
>
>> The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
>
> That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
> us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
> Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
> thirty years ago.
You are a master equivocator.
Us Germans know very well what has been done by our ancestors 60 years ago.
In fact, it seems to me that nowhere else is that awareness that strong and
the people more sensitive when it comes to silly references to Hitler and
his mob. You won't see any "celebrity" (or anyone else) appearing in a NS
costume at a party here in Germany.
The knowledge of what has been done under the lead of such "capable"
dictator actually is the reason why someone would compare Bush to Hitler.
After all, no country has started more wars in the post WW2 era than the US.
Of course, all in the name of "liberty and anti-terrorism".
Ciao
A.
Ian Pace
"aleksios" <alex...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175349877....@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> For Germans, who have killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet
> POWs they took, to even dare speak about Guantanamo is obscene.
>
were not even born when the events of WW2 you allude to occurred. Should we
equally say that because of the genocide of Native Americans, it is obscene
for citizens of the USA to speak of German atrocities?
Ian Pace
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h5CdnXhIzqycWpPb...@comcast.com...
ONLINE's readers' believe Bush 'is worse than Hitler'. How many? There will
always be some freaks around, in any country or any readership. But the
author then mysteriously continues almost as if this were a mainstream
opinion. Condemning the world's largest military power, and that which
intervense militarily in the widest number of other countries, as the major
threat to world peace, is another matter entirely, and is by no means
irrational.
Ian Pace
"Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote in message
news:579p4eF...@mid.individual.net...
> Hi,
>
> aleksios schrieb:
>>
>>> The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
>>
>> That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
>> us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
>> Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
>> thirty years ago.
>
> You are a master equivocator.
>
> Us Germans know very well what has been done by our ancestors 60 years
> ago. In fact, it seems to me that nowhere else is that awareness that
> strong and the people more sensitive when it comes to silly references to
> Hitler and his mob. You won't see any "celebrity" (or anyone else)
> appearing in a NS costume at a party here in Germany.
>
silence about the recent past in West Germany, when about 40% of the civil
service were former Nazi party members, a great many people deeply
implicated in atrocities were walking around free, and many school history
textbooks made only the briefest of references to the Holocaust, being more
concerned about the fate of (non-Jewish) Germans in the war (mostly soldiers
and civilians, not the vast numbers of Communists and Social Democrats who
were some of the first victims of the Nazis), that would be a different
matter. But in the intervening period, a huge amount has changed. From
researching into the post-war period, which I'm doing at the moment, I know
that it would be foolish to assume that absolutely all vestiges of the
1933-1945 era have wholly disappeared, or to deny that there have been some
trying to whitewash aspects of that era (as became clear in the
Historikerstreit affair of the 1980s, as well as Bitburg and so on). But
there is probably no country in which the necessity of looking honestly and
rationally at the past has been more of a vital concern, and has been acted
upon in such a manner. If you compare with Austria or Italy, with former
East Germany in different ways, not to mention Britain, France, Belgium,
Holland, America and numerous other countries in terms of their own
blood-soaked history, the contrast is stark.
Can one of the native German speakers hear clarify whether alekios's 'der
altvaeterlich Philister' is correct, rather than'der altvaeterliche
Philister' (or would 'der altmodische Philister' be better)? My dictionary
tells me that 'altvaeterlich' has no adverbal form when used to mean
'old-fashioned', does that affect the adjectival ending when it precedes a
noun?
Ian
Ian Pace
"Bob Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:auedndRjX_jd6pPb...@comcast.com...
>
> http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009879
>
That article says that 'The intellectual left discovered "good wars" in the
1990s, only to bicker and split in the post-9/11 world'. Actually, if
anything that was the so-called 'left' that were in power; a significant
number of the 'intellectual left' (including most obviously Chomsky) could
see the perils of military intervention in Yugoslavia and the propaganda
that was being employed to 'sell' this war to liberal opinion. The same
tactics were being used in Afghanistan and Iraq (making it out as if
Afghanistan was in part a war to liberate the women of the country - I
believe that the post-Taliban government brought in a new law saying that
women would still be stoned to death, but using smaller stones - what an
advance :( ), but didn't wash so easily this time.
Ian
Andrej Kluge
Ian Pace schrieb:
> Can one of the native German speakers hear clarify whether alekios's
> 'der altvaeterlich Philister' is correct, rather than'der
> altvaeterliche Philister' (or would 'der altmodische Philister' be
> better)?
"Der altväterliche Philister" would have been correct.
> My dictionary tells me that 'altvaeterlich' has no adverbal
> form when used to mean 'old-fashioned', does that affect the
> adjectival ending when it precedes a noun?
To my knowlegde no, it doesn't.
Ciao
A.
Ian Pace
> On 2007-03-30 22:05:32 -0400, "Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> said:
>
>> I would bet money on it that the average German and French
>> person knows a good deal more about America than the average
>> American knows about their countries now.
>
> There's an anecdote about the Finnish military hero, Marshal
> Mannerheim. During the Winter War, a harried young Finnish staff
> officer broke down and exclaimed, "Oh, those Russians! Why won't they
> just leave us alone?" Mannerheim calmly replied, "There are 150
> million of them and 4 million of us. If there were 150 million Finns
> and 4 million Russians, do you think we'd leave them alone?"
There are roughly 82 million citizens of Germany, and 300 million of the
United States. A ratio of a little under 1:4 is rather different to 2:75.
Furthermore, if one takes the combined population of France (64 million) and
Germany (to give the two most prominent countries of 'old Europe'), that
makes 146 million, nearly half that of the USA. And if one takes the whole
of Europe (having noticed how many American pundits are happy to make broad,
sweeping generalisations about such a thing), you would have a population
considerably larger than that of the USA (adding Italy, Spain, Portugal,
Belgium and the Netherlands alone would give 284 million, not to mention
Britain, Austria, the Scandinavian countries, just to limit it to Western
Europe).
>
> Of course we know more about Americans than they know about us. For
> the same reason the citizens of Antioch knew more about Rome than
> Romans knew about Antioch -- a reason so trite and obvious it doesn't
> even bear mention.
>
Well, I'm glad that at least the parallel you draw is between two imperial
nations.
Ian
Ian Pace
> I'm not going to go through the usual litany. I'll let a German speak:
>
> [Berlin, 1945] "[...] a sixteen-year-old
> Berliner called Dieter Borkovsky described what
> he witnessed in a crowded S-Bahn train from the
> Anhalter Bahnhof. 'There was terror on the faces
> of people. They were full of anger and despair.
> I had never heard such cursing before. Suddenly
> someone shouted above the noise, "Silence!" We
> saw a small dirty soldier with two Iron Crosses
> and the German Cross in Gold. On his sleeve he
> had a badge with four metal tanks, which meant
> that he had destroyed four tanks at close
> quarters. "I've got something to tell you," he
> shouted, and the carriage fell silent. "Even if
> you don't want to listen to me, stop whingeing.
> We have to win this war. We must not lose our
> courage. If others win the war, and if they do
> to us only a fraction of what we have done in
> the occupied territories, there won't be a
> single German left in a few weeks." It became so
> quiet in that carriage that one could have heard
> a pin drop."
>
> [Beevor, A. (2002) The Fall of Berlin, 1945.
> Viking, New York, p. 189]
>
Ian
Ian Pace
> On 2007-03-31 11:33:53 -0400, Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net>
> said:
>
>> The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
>
> That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
> us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
> Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
> thirty years ago.
>
Ian
Simon Roberts
>I would bet money on it that the average German and French person knows a
>good deal more about America than the average American knows about their
>countries now.
I suspect you would win. But given the vast ignorance on each side of the
Atlantic of the other, I'm not sure how significant the difference really is;
and when you toss in the ignorance within each country of *itself*, it's all
rather dismaying.
Simon
david...@aol.com
easy enough to see who's to blame for it: George W. Bush. Bush has
done damage, let us hope not irreparable, to the reputation of the
United States abroad. He lied to Congress and the American people to
launch a war in Iraq, and his administration has badly bungled that
enterprise. Throughout this entire episode he's treated the Europeans
both with contempt and as if irrelevant. I can easily understand why
the U.S. makes non-Americans nervous. Behaving both like a bull in a
china shop and with a blind sense of entitlement with respect to the
rest of the planet, the Bush administration with its avowed
unilateralism makes me nervous.
Islamic fundamentalism makes me nervous, too, and I'm not interested
in living in a fundamentalist state, whether Christian or Islamic. At
the very least, Bush's maladroit diplomacy has made the U.S. seem more
like a dangerous force running out of control, not only to many
Germans, but to young and impressionable Muslims everywhere,
increasing the appeal to them of the more radical fundamentalist
Islamic voices. At home, he's catered to Christian fundamentalists
who would like to see their version of Christian fundamentalism
enshrined in law, a vision of law not all that remote from the Islamic
fundamentalists', and many of them support his Middle East policy
because they believe that the Middle East is where apocalypse will
come. Talk about scary.
-david gable
ansermetniac
<david...@aol.com> wrote:
Fighting moslem terrorism while keeping us beholden to arab oil for
the sake of the oil companies makes sense only to corrupt greedy
morons like W and the sickest man in the last 100 years, Dick Cheney.
Start a war so some can make millions. Give Halliburton no bid
contracts. Pay Halliburton for doing no work or shoddy work. But give
the kids the proper equipment on the battlefield and in the hospitals
when they get wounded, PLEASE
Is this Bush's idea of Christianity? If so, I want no part of it
Abbedd
Michael Schaffer
> On 2007-03-31 20:10:45 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
> > On Mar 31, 6:05 am, "aleksios" <alex0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > There's no denying it that Germans did more than most others to
> > > face up to their past and recognise the truth about their
> > > horrible legacy. [...]
>
> > Probably more than enough. [...]
>
> Why, have we run out of victims to remember?
Remembering is a continuous action (otherwise it would be forgetting).
So you don't "run out of" people to remember.
No, it's much worse - there are many people who haven't been
remembered at all (or very litle), many bad things which have been
swept under the rug. It's not like history was basically all nice and
peachy, with just a few minor problems here and there, until the evil
Nazis came and messed it all up (which is basically the way history is
taught in Germany, they are a little reluctant to tell you about the
many bad things other countries have done, especially the colonial
empires, as if mentioning that would make the Nazis look less worse).
The remembering is perversely selective, and the Nazis are very
practical for that. Because they were so evil, it is very practical to
always focus on them and distract attention from other nasty things
that happened, to other people. You don't even have to go very far.
People go on and on about the holocaust, but the fact that the USSR
lost many times more people in WWII is usually ignored or diminished.
Pretty sick.
> Anyway, since more than enough has been done, could you please remind
> me -- why exactly couldn't the Chancellor visit the "Verbrechen..."
> exhibition? And what exactly did he say was impermissible?...
Dunno what you mean. I haven't followed the news every day about
Germany since I have come to the US. So you have to remind me or fill
me in or point me to a source of information about that. I assume you
are talking about Schroeder since you said "he".
But no mater what he or any other chancellor said or did, does that
make it representative of everyone in Germany for you? That seems to
me to be another very generalized and racist attitude here.
Would you also say then that Mr Bush is totally representative for all
Americans?
> --Alex (the mnemonic philistine)
Michael Schaffer
Sure:
The people who have bestowed upon the world the likes of Majdanek,
Sobibor, Treblinka, Theresienstadt,..., should look to themselves
first. For Germans, who have killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet
POWs they took, to even dare speak about Guantanamo is obscene.
Applied in its total generalizations to all "the people" who did this
and that and so their descendants today can not say what they think
about what's happening today even though they have not committed any
of the above acts, that is totally racist.
Steve de Mena
> But give
> the kids the proper equipment on the battlefield and in the hospitals
> when they get wounded, PLEASE
YES!!!!
And bring them home.
> Is this Bush's idea of Christianity? If so, I want no part of it
>
> Abbedd
Steve
aleksios
> There are roughly 82 million citizens of Germany [...]
The point of the anecdote was not about numbers, but about position.
If Germany were to the world what the US is today, then Germans would
know about the US just as little as Americans know about Germany. And,
of course, we'd have this conversation auf gut Deutsch on Zuse
machines. Those of us who aren't Untermenschen, that is.
> [...] I'm glad that at least the parallel you draw is between
> two imperial nations.
What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? Of course the US
is an imperial power; but, to paraphrase a somewhat better known
Canadian, I thank God every day I live under Pax Americana. Because I
think of Pax Germanica or Pax Sovietica, and I shudder at the thought.
--Alex (the philistine from Capua)
aleksios
> You are a master equivocator.
Vielen Dank, but could you elaborate, please? And how do I apply for
the PhD?
> The knowledge of what has been done under the lead of such
> "capable" dictator actually is the reason why someone would
> compare Bush to Hitler.
Someone, perhaps. But Germans? The N-word may be acceptable when
uttered by a Black person, just as a Jewish joke is acceptable from a
Jew; but the N-word or a Jewish joke from a Caucasian is not
acceptable -- not, at least, among people I'd care to associate with.
Not because Caucasians are better or worse than Blacks or Jews -- but
because of the history involved.
> After all, no country has started more wars in the post WW2 era
> than the US.
Prove it.
--Alex (the selective philistine)
aleksios
said:
> I guess that neither reading nor logic is your strong suit. [...]
Flattery will get you everywhere. Anyway, I hope it's sincere, but,
even if it isn't, thank you very much. Ad hominem comments always add
such a nice, gentlemanly touch to a conversation, don't they?
--Alex (the phlattered philistine)
aleksios
said:
> [...] People go on and on about the holocaust
(Some) people go on and on about the *Holocaust*. A *holocaust* is a
religious practice, as I'm sure you -- who "speak 6 languages" and
have "a fairly detailed knowledge" of more than one culture -- know.
> but the fact that the USSR lost many times more people in WWII
> is usually ignored or diminished. Pretty sick. [...]
"Pretty sick"?!
> Dunno what you mean.
<http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/pdf/vdw_en.pdf>
Wette, Wolfram (2002) Die Wehrmacht: Feindbilder, Vernichtungskrieg,
Legenden. ISBN 310091208X
Bartov, Omer (2003) Germany's War and the Holocaust: Disputed
Histories. ISBN 0801438241
--Alex (the educational philistine)
Simon Roberts
>
>"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 02:05:32 GMT in
>rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> I would bet money on it that the average German and French person knows a
>> good deal more about America than the average American knows about their
>> countries now.
>
>is a country with a capital called Ottawa.
Don't be silly. Were Bush to introduce the draft to try to sustain his war in
Iraq, large numbers of average Americans would try to cross that border, just as
they did in the 1960s for similar reasons.
Simon
Ian Pace
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:euprs...@drn.newsguy.com...
Ian
A. Brain
>> his war in
>> Iraq, large numbers of average Americans would try to cross that
>> border, just as
>> they did in the 1960s for similar reasons.
Did I miss something? Did Congress give Bush the
power to start the draft? Or perhaps he thinks
he can as part of his "inherent powers"
as the "Commander in Chief".
Meanwhile, it's been weeks since Chris
Matthews asked the question, "Who
is our enemy in Iraq--are we there just
to kill as many Iraqis as possible?"
And as the so-called "surge" is supposedly
succeeding (according to some), what exactly
is the goal? A puppet state, I guess.
Not bloody likely.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Paul Ilechko
Commenting on proven evidence is not ad hominem.
Richard Loeb
news:9cg2139g37b1395ps...@4ax.com...
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> on 1 Apr 2007 20:04:42 -0700 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> Were Bush to introduce the draft to try to sustain his war in
>> Iraq, large numbers of average Americans would try to cross that border,
>> just as
>> they did in the 1960s for similar reasons.
>
> male Americans. On my travels in the US I noticed that an estimated
> 80-90% of the people don't know the name of the Canadian capital.
>
> Gerd Ranja
>
>
>
>
Did you go around asking lots of Americans what the capital of Canada
is????? Richard
Richard Loeb
> "Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> on Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:06:29 -0400
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> Did you go around asking lots of Americans what the capital of Canada
>> is?????
>
> Ottawa, 80-90% did not have a clue what I was talking about.
>
> Gerd Ranja
Thats interesting -just a question -when people in the US asked you where
you come from, why did you say Ottawa, and not Canada???. I mean, when I
travel through Europe and am asked where I come from, I don't say
Harrisburg, or Washington DC, or San Francisco - I say I come from the
United States. Why would you say what city you come from???? Richard
Andrej Kluge
Wayne Reimer schrieb:
> The primary goal (as it was during the first Gulf war) is to maximize
> war profiteering for Bush friends and family, along with protecting
> the friends' and family's interests (significantly, including certain
> Saudis fall into the "friends" category) . It's so simple most people
> either miss it or else are so naive that they refuse to believe these
> people could be that evil. But they are. All you have to do is
> follow the money...
This is the gist of it, yes.
Ciao
A.
Bob Lombard
> "Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> on Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:06:29 -0400
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> is?????
>
> Ottawa, 80-90% did not have a clue what I was talking about.
>
> Gerd Ranja
Maybe figured you came from Kansas or Wisconsin, where there are towns
by that name?
bl
Paul Ilechko
In a generous mood today?
Bob Lombard
"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:57d2l3F...@mid.individual.net...
Nah, just a hick from the sticks. If a Brit wandered by and responded to
the 'Where ya from' question with 'Springfield', I would assume he meant
the Springfield in the state we were in - unless I couldn't understand
his accent.
bl
Michael Schaffer
aleksios wrote:
> On 2007-04-01 16:23:55 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
> > [...] People go on and on about the holocaust
>
> (Some) people go on and on about the *Holocaust*. A *holocaust* is a
> religious practice, as I'm sure you -- who "speak 6 languages" and
> have "a fairly detailed knowledge" of more than one culture -- know.
>
> > but the fact that the USSR lost many times more people in WWII
> > is usually ignored or diminished. Pretty sick. [...]
>
> "Pretty sick"?!
Yes, pretty sick. Because it seems that to some, some victims are more
worth mentioning than others. That's not good.
> > Dunno what you mean.
>
> <http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/pdf/vdw_en.pdf>
>
> Wette, Wolfram (2002) Die Wehrmacht: Feindbilder, Vernichtungskrieg,
> Legenden. ISBN 310091208X
>
> Bartov, Omer (2003) Germany's War and the Holocaust: Disputed
> Histories. ISBN 0801438241
Thanks for these interesting links. I don't understand why you posted
them here though. We know that the Wehrmacht visited immense
destruction on the countries it ploughed through. That has nothing to
do with the present discussion though. I don't think anybody here
doubts these facts.
>
> --Alex (the educational philistine)
Michael Schaffer
aleksios wrote:
> On 2007-04-01 09:07:22 -0400, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> said:
>
> > You are a master equivocator.
>
> Vielen Dank, but could you elaborate, please? And how do I apply for
> the PhD?
>
> > The knowledge of what has been done under the lead of such
> > "capable" dictator actually is the reason why someone would
> > compare Bush to Hitler.
>
> Someone, perhaps. But Germans? The N-word may be acceptable when
> uttered by a Black person, just as a Jewish joke is acceptable from a
> Jew; but the N-word or a Jewish joke from a Caucasian is not
> acceptable -- not, at least, among people I'd care to associate with.
> Not because Caucasians are better or worse than Blacks or Jews -- but
> because of the history involved.
You are totally confusing some things here. Using the "N-word" is
repeating an "historical" insult which is unacceptable because of the
bad history (slavery etc) it is associated with.
The parallel example to, say, a white "American" calling someone
"Nigger" would be a German calling a Jewish person "Saujude" or
something similar. That would indeed be totally unacceptable no matter
if the person using the word has participated in actual persecutions
of Jews or not. It is just way beyond "funny". But I think that
doesn't just apply to Germans (old and young) using such insults, and
it doesn't just apply to Jews being insulted in that way - all racist
stuff like that should not be tolerated.
But that is a completely different situation from somebody from
Germany today who has never participated in any racist persecution or
furthered any wars pointing out bad things happening in our world now.
I think the comparison of Bush with Hitler is totally over the top,
but there are some eerie similarities in what is currently going on
which should be pointed out. Anybody who understands these mechanisms
is qualified to and should point them out. Maybe a lot of people in
Germany are more "qualified" because we literally grow up getting the
totally unsugarcoated unpleasant truth about our history hammered in
and learning about how these things happened while, as far as I can
tell, most other countries address the skeletons in their collective
closet only very reluctantly. But anyone who is informed enough to
understand some of the parallels can and should point them out.
Interestingly, it is Americans - a lot of them, BTW - who often ask me
"aren't the things which are happening right now similar to what
happened in Germany back then?" and it is me who says "no, no, that
was far worse, although there are some parallels". Which mostly
applies to the way Bush has managed to split and polarize more or less
the entire country, and the way he and his friends abused "patriotism"
for their very own un-patriotic political purposes.
When I first came here 4 years ago, I often witnessed disturbing
scenes. People, including people who were good friends often very
heatedly debated the political situation in very emotional ways and
often went at each other's throat, calling each other evil names and
often, you had the "if you don't support the President, you are not a
real American, you are a traitor" material flung at people. That was
really sad to witness. For me, it was a bit like "wait a minute, let
me get my video camera, I have grown up learning about these things
but I have never seen them". Almost like being in a time tunnel.
"Ironically", it was often me who de-escalated these situations and
who explained why it was a really bad thing that people called each
other these names.
Now, a few years later, these "discussions" don't seem to happen
anymore. The people who used to wave the flag in other people's faces
have pretty much shut up.
I live in San Diego which is a big military base and there are tons of
USMC around where I live. Many of them are totally disillusioned and
have to deal with emotional and physical injuries, and it is
particularly hard for young men who joined up, perhaps naively, but
enthusiastically and well meaning, to deal with all that when they
clearly see that the whole exercise was totally pointless. In a way,
that also helped me better to understand what happened in Germany back
then when you had two generations of people who went through or grew
up during WWI, revolution, political and economic chaos, national
humiliation after Versailles and all that and who were optimally
conditioned to "get back" at "the enemies", but, as we know, that
didn't work out so well.
Michael Schaffer
Except that Springfield in England is not a capital as Ottawa is the
capital of Canada. The capital of England and the UK is in fact called
"London".
You can read up on it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London
BTW, I have also run into more than a few people here in California
who didn't know that the state's capital is Sacramento. Many think
"it's Los Angeles or San Francisco or some place like that".
When people ask me where I am from, I usually say "Berlin". The
replies are sometimes very interesting. I have been asked "so you are
from France" and "so you are from Russia", no kidding. When I said
"no, it's in Germany", the best reply so far was "do people speak a
different language in Germany?"
ansermetniac
wrote:
If you told them that you were a nazi, they would have known
immediately that you came from germany
Elie Weisel
Michael Schaffer
aleksios wrote:
> On 2007-03-31 11:33:53 -0400, Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net>
> said:
>
> > The second world war ended over sixty years ago.
>
> That long, eh? The shoes are old indeed! Well, then, by all means, let
> us forget the butchered millions. What's the big deal, after all?
> Forget a million a year, and we'd've had no more to say about it
> thirty years ago.
>
> > Guantanamo is obscene.
>
> >From the point of view of the Declaration of Independence and the
> principles and ideals America (with all its warts, missing teeth, and
> beer belly) has stood for? Beyond the shadow of a question.
>
> > Bringing attention to it is not.
>
> Which is exactly why so many *Americans* (and others) are doing
> something about it.
>
> But for the *Germans* to wax righteous about it and compare Dubya to
> Grofaz is like the registered sex offender chastising the office oaf
> for making a dirty joke in mixed company; it's like the reformed
> alcoholic lambasting the redneck who's had one too many Buds on
> Superbowl day; it's like someone who's seen Jesus Christ Superstar 6
> million times rebuking Gardiner for his Matthaeuspassion tempi.
So, all Germans, just because they come from Germany, are like the
"registered sex offender" or the "refomed alcoholic" even though they
have never been a sex offender or alcoholic themselves, but their
grandparents maybe were? So, the grandson of the sex offender is
automatically a sex offender himself? Even if his grandfather wasn't
one himself either, but maybe the grandfather's neighbor? Interesting.
> --Alex (the rhetorical philistine)
Michael Schaffer
That would be misleading since I am not a member of the NSDAP or any
other organization harboring NS ideologies, nor am I interested in
such ideologies myself.
Plus there are more Neo-Nazis in the US today than in Germany, so if I
said that, people would think I am from Oklahoma.
> Elie Weisel
The guy's name is "Wiesel", not "Weisel", you idiot. And makes you
think you can sign your post in his name?
ansermetniac
wrote:
>That would be misleading since I am not a member of the NSDAP or any
>other organization harboring NS ideologies, nor am I interested in
>such ideologies myself.
Yee Bone!!!
E.W.
Steve de Mena
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> on 1 Apr 2007 20:04:42 -0700 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> Iraq, large numbers of average Americans would try to cross that border, just as
>> they did in the 1960s for similar reasons.
>
> male Americans. On my travels in the US I noticed that an estimated
> 80-90% of the people don't know the name of the Canadian capital.
>
> Gerd Ranja
I would not be surprised to learn 80-90% of
Americans do not know the name of the Canadian
capital. I thought the original statement was
that most Americans would not know the name of the
*country* to the north. That percentage, while too
high I am sure, is nowhere near 80%.
From my experience only, in public grade school
in the 1970s, we covered U.S. History only, and
seemingly the same period over and over, from
roughly the 1600s to the 1800s, never having time
to finish the book to get to the 20th century. I
also never had a proper English grammar class in
my entire schooling. (No "we can tell" comments!)
Upon entering college I passed the test to bypass
"English 101" through my usage of English over the
years, but not from any formalized education.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> BTW, I have also run into more than a few people here in California
> who didn't know that the state's capital is Sacramento. Many think
> "it's Los Angeles or San Francisco or some place like that".
>
> When people ask me where I am from, I usually say "Berlin". The
> replies are sometimes very interesting. I have been asked "so you are
> from France" and "so you are from Russia", no kidding. When I said
> "no, it's in Germany", the best reply so far was "do people speak a
> different language in Germany?"
>
I am embarrassed to read this but not surprised,
having grown up in the U.S. school system. I
don't think it is any better today... I really
don't know what to say. I had interest in history
passed down to me from my father, who knew much
more than I, but even my knowledge has severe gaps.
Steve
ansermetniac
wrote:
>OT!
>
>ansermetniac <anserm...@hotmail.com> - Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:21:26
>-0400 in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> If you told them that you were a nazi, they would have known
>> immediately that you came from germany
>
>Would they? Googling for "nazi" gives as nos. 3 and 4 hits,
>respectively, www.nazi.org/ and www.americannaziparty.com/
>(nos. 1 and 2 are Wikipedia entries).
>
>EM
>
>
Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with
it.
B.F.
Bob Lombard
"Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175552203.7...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
bl
Michael Schaffer
wrote:
> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175552203.7...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Bob Lombard wrote:
> >>news:57d2l3F...@mid.individual.net...
> >> > Bob Lombard wrote:
> >> >>news:csh213lo5gg7k0te5...@4ax.com...
> >> >>> "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> on Mon, 2 Apr 2007
Is that the most "relevant" reply you could come up with? Probably.
Michael Schaffer
> On Mar 31, 7:17 pm, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 31, 6:59 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> > > (snip)
>
> > > > The fact that I studied music in my home country and know my country's
> > > > musical and general cultural heritage (the good, the bad, and the
> > > > ugly) very well while you don't even have a superficial understanding
> > > > of our culture but still wish to put down those who do as
> > > > "nationalists" has nothing to do
>
> > > > - with that sadly failed attempt at a polemical article which totally
> > > > misses the point it apparently wants to make and gets a whole lot of
> > > > things confused; for instance, there is nothing "hypocritical" about
> > > > people watching American TV series and at the same time protesting
> > > > against the American government; because most people don't have
> > > > anything against America in general, but they see that the current
> > > > government is pretty bad; still, that doesn't lead them to "boycott"
> > > > America and American products; so there is no "anti-americanism" in
> > > > these protests; just anti-bushism, nothing more, nothing less.
>
> > > > - with anybody's superiority complex. I don't compare myself to you;
> > > > you play no role in my mental world; you are just a guy who types in
> > > > silly messages on the net and attacks foreigners who speak informedly
> > > > about their own culture as "nationalists"; who thinks he has a
> > > > cultural "veneer" that he can compare to the deep involvedness
> > > > somebody has who grew up in a place and studied aspects of its
> > > > cultural history and practices on a professional level; you are just a
> > > > sad clown who feels the need to turn his envy of other people's
> > > > culture into racist attacks; you are a total lowlife; as such, not
> > > > just me, but anybody who has any kind of respect for the
> > > > accomplishments of other people and peoples is vastly superior to the
> > > > rotten piece of shit you are.
>
> > > Thanks for your kind words; you really do know how to convey your
> > > appreciation of others.
>
> > I only appreciate educated people who respect and are interested in
> > other cultures. Not primitive racists like you who think they have a
> > "veneer" of culture because they have read a few things about this and
> > that.
>
> > > Perhaps you'd like to hear from Germany's
> > > erstwhile Foreign Minister on some of the subjects/attitudes under
> > > discussion (?) here:
>
> > >http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009879
>
> > > Bob Harper- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > No, thanks. Fischer is a sad figure, an actor, an impostor who always
> > turned with the wind. He did pretty well at that. I have no idea he is
> > a professor in America now. Why? He doesn't even have a high school
> > diploma.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You really know little of the U.S.
Indeed I don't. Even though I have lived here for 4 years, I don't
think I have "figured out" the place yet. I am well aware of how
complex a subject that is - in glaring contrast to people like you who
have very little knowledge of and exposure to other cultures yet think
they know it all.
> And from what I've read with your
> comments so far you don't know much about your own country (and my
> parents' homeland) heritage and culture.
Pretty silly comment. How the hell would *you* be able to judge that?
When it comes to music, I am about as deeply involved in my country's
heritage as you can get. I mean "you" in the general sense of "one",
not "you", *you* obviously know next to nothing about our musical
culture except for some stereotypes and clichés which you post in this
NG from time to time, trying to pass them off as knowledge and
insight. But it's totally obvious there is not much understanding
behind that.
> Sad. You are very lucky you
> operate with such a sense of entitlement. The opening article about
> the Germans and Bush is a right wing obfuscation (which is rampant in
> the U.S.) - so get over it! You are manipulated in this discussion -
> as bright as you are! Hauser
A. Brain
> I think the comparison of Bush with Hitler is totally over the top,
> but there are some eerie similarities in what is currently going on
> which should be pointed out. Anybody who understands these mechanisms
> is qualified to and should point them out. Maybe a lot of people in
> Germany are more "qualified" because we literally grow up getting the
> totally unsugarcoated unpleasant truth about our history hammered in
> and learning about how these things happened while, as far as I can
> tell, most other countries address the skeletons in their collective
> closet only very reluctantly. But anyone who is informed enough to
> understand some of the parallels can and should point them out.
>
> Interestingly, it is Americans - a lot of them, BTW - who often ask me
> "aren't the things which are happening right now similar to what
> happened in Germany back then?" and it is me who says "no, no, that
> was far worse, although there are some parallels". Which mostly
> applies to the way Bush has managed to split and polarize more or less
> the entire country, and the way he and his friends abused "patriotism"
> for their very own un-patriotic political purposes.
There are lots of similarities, especially if you
get out into the rural areas of some "red states".
And in some communities, there are exhortations
to patronize Christian businesses, Christian
resorts, etc.
It has not quite got to the point of exhortations
to boycott non-Christian businesses or, for
example, homosexual businesses. There have
of course been campaigns by so-called "Christian"
groups to boycott companies that are seen as
being "gay-friendly".
Let's not forget that idiot Pat Robertson who
years ago claimed that tornadoes in Florida
were sent by God to punish Disney World
for having had some kind of program geared
to gay families or something like that. And
he and Falwell blamed the terrorist attacks
on God's wrath about feminists, etc.
I'm not sure if the homosexuals are a large
enough minority group to demonize for
political ends, but the idiotic "gay marriage"
state initiatives and the issue's prominence
in federal elections is comparable to some
of what was going on in Germany in the
'30s.
And here's an eerie parallel: some of the
crazies who are demonizing the homosexuals
seem like they might be "closet cases". I
mean, what is the deal with people like
Michael Savage? The GOP has a long
history of scandals; it did not start with
Mark Foley.
One historian is comparing Bush not to Hitler,
but to Mugabe:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17467.htm
>
> When I first came here 4 years ago, I often witnessed disturbing
> scenes. People, including people who were good friends often very
> heatedly debated the political situation in very emotional ways and
> often went at each other's throat, calling each other evil names and
> often, you had the "if you don't support the President, you are not a
> real American, you are a traitor" material flung at people. That was
> really sad to witness. For me, it was a bit like "wait a minute, let
> me get my video camera, I have grown up learning about these things
> but I have never seen them". Almost like being in a time tunnel.
> "Ironically", it was often me who de-escalated these situations and
> who explained why it was a really bad thing that people called each
> other these names.
> Now, a few years later, these "discussions" don't seem to happen
> anymore. The people who used to wave the flag in other people's faces
> have pretty much shut up.
It's bizarre how they were fooled into supporting this war,
which never made any sense. Yet now, some of those who
have turned against the war are blaming the press and the
Democrats in Congress for being fooled as well. As if those
who were fooled are more blameworthy than those who
started a war that was not only unnecessary, but in fact
counterproductive.
> I live in San Diego which is a big military base and there are tons of
> USMC around where I live. Many of them are totally disillusioned and
> have to deal with emotional and physical injuries, and it is
> particularly hard for young men who joined up, perhaps naively, but
> enthusiastically and well meaning, to deal with all that when they
> clearly see that the whole exercise was totally pointless. In a way,
> that also helped me better to understand what happened in Germany back
> then when you had two generations of people who went through or grew
> up during WWI, revolution, political and economic chaos, national
> humiliation after Versailles and all that and who were optimally
> conditioned to "get back" at "the enemies", but, as we know, that
> didn't work out so well.
It still seems likely to me that when we pull out of Iraq,
which is inevitable, and that region is consumed by more
bloodshed followed by perhaps a much more pernicious
regime than Saddam's, maybe allied with Iran, the Democrats
will be blamed for losing Iraq, just as they were blamed for
losing Vietnam.
At least in the Vietnam war, arguably the effort was
in part to check the influence of the U.S.S.R. and China
in Southeast Asia. And the U.S.S.R. was a threat.
George McGovern recently made the point on one
of the talk shows that you'd have to be crazy to think
that Saddam Hussein was a threat to the U.S. in
2003.
I was shocked when William F. Buckley, Jr. supported
the war. I thought he would, like Pat Buchanan, see
the folly of it. Of course, now "Chairman Bill" has
seen the error of his ways. There's an article about
that in last week's "New Republic".
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Henk van Tuijl
"A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> schreef in bericht
news:PYqQh.237216$5j1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> One historian is comparing Bush not to Hitler,
> but to Mugabe:
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17467.htm
It is ironic to see that even liberals tend to look outside the USA to
find an adequate illustration of the ugliness of Bush. He can only be a
Hitler, a Mugabe, a ...
AFAIK the Bushite regime is an exponent of the Redneck States. The
ugliness is right there, in the USA itself.
Perhaps it is overlooked because of the banality of it: xenophobia in
every possible sense.
Henk
aleksios
said:
> > > [...] but the fact that the USSR lost many times more
> > > people in WWII is usually ignored or diminished.
> > > Pretty sick. [...]
> Yes, pretty sick. Because it seems that to some, some victims
> are more worth mentioning than others. That's not good. [...]
Hm. In the same paragraph in which I mentioned Majdanek, I also said
that the "Germans [...] killed or let die some 60% of the Soviet POWs
they took". So, obviously, I don't ignore or diminish Soviet losses;
and I haven't seen anyone else in this thread doing it; so I wonder --
to whom is your remark addressed, and who exactly is "pretty sick"?
--Alex (the inquiring philistine)
aleksios
said:
> [...] I don't understand why you posted them here though. [...]
German "work-through" of the Third Reich has been based on a legend.
According to the legend, the crimes were committed by the dedicated
core of the NSDAP (Nazi party) and its paramilitary arms (SA and SS).
Most NSDAP members, who joined out of convenience or opportunism
(like, say, von Karajan), did not participate (at worst, they turned
the other way), while the regular armed forces (Wehrmacht) and the SS
combat units (Waffen-SS) fought a tough but "clean" war.
This was a necessary legend -- a high proportion of the post-war West
German political establishment, like many other male Germans, had
served in the Wehrmacht; and the new (Western) armed forces
(Bundeswehr) were staffed by officers who had distinguished themselves
in the Wehrmacht. Additionally, it was encouraged by the US, who
needed the Germans as allies in the Cold War.
As the Cold War waned and archives became available, a number of
researchers -- such as the Israeli military historian Omer Bartov --
began to challenge this view, but they were ignored not only by the
public, but also by most professional historians. And then, in the
early '90s, the shit hit the fan. The Hamburg Institute for Social
Research organised a travelling exhibition of photos, letters,
journals, notes, etc, of the average German soldier.
What the HIS exhibition exposed to the public was the dirty little
secret behind the legend: that the Wehrmacht had not fought a "clean"
war in the East; on the contrary, it had been, alongside the SS, a
willing, indeed, enthusiastic participant in genocide; that, rather
than being a tough but apolitical fighter, the average German soldier
was fully indoctrinated with the Nazi Weltanschauung.
The scandal was great, because a huge percentage of German males (and
a not inconsiderable number of German females) had served in the
Wehrmacht. Hitler's armed forces had been a truly popular army, and it
was virtually impossible to find a German family who did not include a
member who had served in it. (Another scandal was caused by the
accusation that pictures were faked. A commission of historians
studied the issue and found that, indeed, some 10 photos out of over
1,000 had been mislabelled -- they depicted Soviet, rather than
German, atrocities.)
The German chancellor at the time (the Social-Democrat Schroeder)
refused to visit the exhibition, commenting that it was impermissible
to say what the exhibition was saying (mind you, he didn't say it
wasn't true -- just that it shouldn't have been said).
As I said before, there's no denying that Germans have done more than
most others to face up to their past. But there's also no denying that
a lot more has been left undone, and that Germans -- of all people --
should find better things to do than drawing absurd comparisons
between Dubya and the perfect Wagnerite. (Btw, don't you find it
curious that such comparisons are reserved for those who were his
victims or fought against him? I don't recall Germans drawing H-
moustaches on Saddam's portrait when he was invading Iran or Kuwait,
or gassing the Kurds; or on the portraits of, say, Kim Jong Il or
Robert Mugabe; or of Omar al-Bashir, who, right this very minute,
presides over a slo-mo but genuine genocide in Darfur.)
--Alex (the informative philistine)
Bob Lombard
"aleksios" <alex...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175610874.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 2007-04-02 17:13:28 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
>> [...] I don't understand why you posted them here though. [...]
>
> German "work-through" of the Third Reich has been based on a legend.
>
> According to the legend, the crimes were committed by the dedicated
> core of the NSDAP (Nazi party) and its paramilitary arms (SA and SS).
> Most NSDAP members, who joined out of convenience or opportunism
> (like, say, von Karajan), did not participate (at worst, they turned
> the other way), while the regular armed forces (Wehrmacht) and the SS
> combat units (Waffen-SS) fought a tough but "clean" war.
>
>
>
---------
Alex, I am unable to determine your understanding of the word
'philistine', mostly because you are prone to whimsy. Webster's
International has what amounts to an essay on the word. The definition
most likely to fit your usage is:
<< 3 often capitalized [translation of German Philister] a : a crass
prosaic often priggish individual guided by material rather than
intellectual values : 4BABBITT, BOURGEOIS *it is only the Philistine who
seeks to estimate a personality by the vulgar test of production Oscar
Wilde* *the Philistine wants to talk about morals, not to understand
what is morally wrong J.T.Farrell* b (1) : one deficient in originality
or aesthetic sensitivity *the Philistine's sturdy preference for
reproduction of the familiar John Dewey* *irresponsible philistines will
bring about the disfigurement of Trinity's front greens and the walled
banks of the Liffey Dublin Sunday Independent* (2) : one uninformed in a
special area of knowledge : IGNORAMUS, OUTSIDER [...]. >>
I had thought that you could be using philistine as a synonym for
'iconoclast', but the same dictionary's definition of that word:
<< 2 : one who attacks established beliefs, ideals, customs, or
institutions. >>
fits this 3rd Reich post but not some of the others.
I decided to post this so that you would know that your sig is working,
at least for me.
bl
O
<e-m-e-m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ansermetniac <anserm...@hotmail.com> - Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:37:17
> -0400 in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
> > Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with
> > it.
>
> That's plagiarism, so we may have yet another scandal on our hands
> now.
You mean Joyce Hatto stole from John Cleese also?
-Owen
Paul Ilechko
> O <ow...@idsx.netx> on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:47:16 -0400 in
> rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> You mean Joyce Hatto stole from John Cleese also?
>
Just an ass.
aleksios
<thorste...@vermontel.net> said:
> I am unable to determine your understanding of the word
> 'philistine' [...]
>
> [translation of German Philister] a : a crass
> prosaic often priggish individual guided by
> material rather than intellectual values [...]
A little while ago I posted a note on Poulenc's Concerto champetre. It
began, "Twentieth century composers are, by and large, a dreary lot",
and ended, "Who knew? You can listen to 20th c. music, and not feel
like strangling someone afterwards..." I assumed that denizens of a
classical music group were sophisticated enough not to require smilies
peppered all over my note. I was wrong. I was first accused of making
Poulenc appear a philistine, then of being myself a philistine.
In my time, I've been described as stupid, nitpicking, boring,
pedantic, snobbish, eccentric, crazy, a kook, and many others -- a
master equivocator, indeed -- but never a philistine. (The term may
not be common nowadays, but it would be familiar to anyone who's had
to read Marx in his youth.) I found it so amusing that I adopted it in
much the same spirit as others (to which I don't compare myself, of
course) adopted appellations such as "Gueux", "Whigs", "sans-
culottes", or "golani".
--Alex (the explanatory philistine)
Bob Lombard
Ah, so. I read your post but not the responses. Bartok being a 20th C.
composer, I knew you were not serious.
You had to read Marx in your youth?
bl
Michael Schaffer
To whoever makes such selective statements. I didn't say you
specifically made them here. But it is very common.
Peter Lemken
> A little while ago I posted a note on Poulenc's Concerto champetre. It
> began, "Twentieth century composers are, by and large, a dreary lot",
> and ended, "Who knew? You can listen to 20th c. music, and not feel
> like strangling someone afterwards..." I assumed that denizens of a
> classical music group were sophisticated enough not to require smilies
> peppered all over my note. I was wrong. I was first accused of making
> Poulenc appear a philistine, then of being myself a philistine.
Your assumption on denizens of a classical music group being sophisticated
enough is right on. It has been that way for the past 13 years I have been
an active participant in this group.
We can actually do without your conglomerate of half-wisdoms and badly
translated dimwitticisms, in fact, we did so for the past thirteen years I
have known the group.
Want to get on the anti-German bandwagon know, or is there anything
substantial outside the realm of dimwitticisms, halfknowledge and bad pun
ridden insinuations that you want to get of your chest at this moment?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
Simon Roberts
>I am embarrassed to read this but not surprised,
>having grown up in the U.S. school system. I
>don't think it is any better today... I really
>don't know what to say. I had interest in history
>passed down to me from my father, who knew much
>more than I, but even my knowledge has severe gaps.
I once met someone who had a college degree in Kansas City and who, when I told
her I was originally from Australia, complemented my on how well I spoke
English. Had she herself been English I would have appreciated her comment as
quite a good joke, but I'm pretty sure that's not what she meant and was thus a
trifle baffled. (I'm also pretty sure my "Australia" didn't sound like
"Austria.")
Simon